How to Remove Rusted in Machine Screws?

[Stew Denton]

Hi All,

A few years ago I bought a plane with a frozen in machine screw, rusted in, and one of the creek folks got it out for me, and I said "never again." Well I messed up again, not asking a seller on the auction site to check to see if all of the machine screws were free, and ended up buying a plane with 3 rusted in screws. I was in too much of a rush when I bid on it. Bad deal.

At any rate, what advise do you all have for removing such a beast. I have some ideas, but appreciate any advise.

Thanks and regards,

Stew

[Bill Houghton]

Sometimes you can work penetrating fluid in past the screw head. Repeated applications over time.

Put the plane in a plastic bag, put it in the freezer for a couple of days, bring it out and take it out of the bag, then set it where it can warm up with as little condensation as possible. Give it time to get to room temperature. The difference in movement between the two metals can sometimes break the bond.

Support the part in such a way that you won't break anything, set the screwdriver in the slot, and strike the back end of the driver's handle sharply with a hammer. Don't use your best wood handled screwdriver for this; you want something with a plastic handle. This is the same principle as banging the jar lid on the floor to remove it.

[Charles Guest]

Hi All,

A few years ago I bought a plane with a frozen in machine screw, rusted in, and one of the creek folks got it out for me, and I said "never again." Well I messed up again, not asking a seller on the auction site to check to see if all of the machine screws were free, and ended up buying a plane with 3 rusted in screws. I was in too much of a rush when I bid on it. Bad deal.

At any rate, what advise do you all have for removing such a beast. I have some ideas, but appreciate any advise.

Thanks and regards,

Stew

Try a penetrant first. Let it sit for a few days. If it doesn't work then heat the head of the screw with a propane torch with a fine flame. Wipe the plane down before you do this to make sure you don't ignite any of the penetrant that may have run down onto other parts of the plane -- but you're going to wait a few days before resorting to the torch, remember that.

[John K Jordan]

Put the plane in a plastic bag, put it in the freezer for a couple of days, bring it out and take it out of the bag, then set it where it can warm up with as little condensation as possible.

Cycles of heat and cold can break almost anything loose.

An old photographer trick to eliminate problems from condensation when coming indoors from the cold is to let the equipment warm up while inside a plastic bag - moisture from the warmer air then condenses on the outside of the bag instead of the equipment surfaces.

The best penetration fluid IMO is PB Blaster. Apply, tap, wait, repeat.

When attempting to loosen a slotted screw where I don't want it to slip and mar the surface I like to grind one with parallel sides that fits tightly into the full width of the slot, or use a gunsmith screwdriver if I have the right size.

JKJ

[Mike Lemon]

Wire brush off loose rust then chuck it into a bucket of kerosene and let it sit for a week or two. I have never had a screw that wouldn't come loose after that.

[lowell holmes]

You might try slightly heating it with a small propane torch or with a hair dryer.

[Tom M King]

Sea Foam DC-14 Deep Creep, and a left handed Cobalt drill bit, if the screw is not to small to find such a drill bit for. I just removed some broken off 5/8", and 3/4" Grade 8 bolts today with such a combination. They were holding a front end loader on a tractor. By the time I got up to the 3/8" bit, they all came right out on the drill bit.

[Kim Gibbens]

50/50 mix acetone and automatic transmission fluid, best thing I've ever used.

[Lon Crosby]

Second acetone and ATF mix. Best by test.

[Joe Rogers]

Kano Kroil.
Joe

[Tom M King]

I've used acetone, and ATF, wd40 brand penetrant, Kroil, and the Sea Foam. All of it seems to work fine. The WD40 type has the fold down bendable metal straw, which is nice sometimes, but the straw is a larger diameter than the typical spray can red straw. The Sea Foam stuff has the little red straw, and foams up so it goes all around even a large hole on its own. For the large screws, I drilled a small hole all the way through the bolts, and sprayed some in behind the broken bolts, as well as on the outside.

Hitting the broken bolt with a center punch is theoretically supposed to shock it enough to make some difference, but you need to use a center punch anyway. For large bolts that have some useable threads on the outer part of the hole, drilling a hole through a cap screw to use as a bit guide helps a lot to center the first drill.

The trouble with those old plane screws is that the threads are a non-standard tap size, so you need to be careful drilling to not screw up the threads in the hole, or the plane may have to be junked anyway if you can't tap up to the next larger size.

[Jim Koepke]

[edited]

The trouble with those old plane screws is that the threads are a non-standard tap size, so you need to be careful drilling to not screw up the threads in the hole, or the plane may have to be junked anyway if you can't tap up to the next larger size.

The threaded holes are also shallow. My solution was to buy an extra tap and grind off the end to make a bottoming tap.

The odd threads used by Stanley for most of the frog, tote and knob screws are 12-20. This tap is often available from Victor Machinery:

https://www.victornet.com/subdepartments/Special-Pitch-Taps-up-to-1-2/1260.html

They have a $25 minimum order.

jtk

[lowell holmes]

The removal process will likely involve several steps. I would start with gentle heat. You won't know until you try it.

[Tom M King]

Jim, That's a great resource. It would be nice for someone with a cold saw to chop the ends off to make bottoming taps. I don't have a cold saw, or I would offer to.

edited to add: I just checked ebay, and there are plenty of choices in 1/8" left hand cobalt bits. 5/32 is a tiny bit smaller than the hole size for a no.12 tap, but doesn't allow much of a margin for getting the hole off center. The 1/8" will give a little more room for error, but I'd make sure the center punched hole is centered the best you can. If it's going to come out, the 1/8" left hand bit should grab good enough to back the screws out as it goes into the screws.

[lowell holmes]

I would try heat. The expansion and contraction of the metal should break the bond. Heat it to 300 degrees in the oven.

[steven c newman]

Have used a cordless impact driver to hammer and turn bolts out.....after letting PB soak a day or two...had to match the driver bit to the slot. The drill I have has two settings....Hammer/driver, and just plain hammer only. Frog bolts, I place the base in the end vise on the end of the bench....third hand to keep the base from moving around, is all.....does not need to be cranked down super tight.

Hammer only for a little bit, then try the hammer/driver setting......reverse for a few "hits", forward for a hit, then reverse again.

[Tom M King]

The old fashioned hit to impact screwdrivers work good too, a lot of times. I think even Lee Valley sells one. They were what everyone called an "impact driver" before there was such a thing as a cordless one.

[Jim Koepke]

I would try heat. The expansion and contraction of the metal should break the bond. Heat it to 300 degrees in the oven.

Drilling out with a left hand twist drill will heat the bolt up very quickly. It will also likely 'catch' in the screw and back it out.

One of my drill presses has a reversible motor. This has been my main reason for not selling it. It is my plan to someday install a reversing switch or make it left hand only just for the occasion a screw needs to be drilled out.

jtk

[Jim Koepke]

A little digging found this:

https://www.victornet.com/alphabetic/Drill-Bits-Jobber-Left-Hand-HSS/103.html

jtk

[Tom M King]

I'm sold on the left hand bit method. EasyOuts will get one out, if it will come out easy, but the left hand bits works so much better for bad ones. The trouble with easyouts is they try to expand the bolt, which works against you. When the left hand bit finds the critical point where the bolt is ready to back out from being overcome by all the forces from the left hand bit cutting into it, it comes right on out on its own. The drill operator is still pushing on the bit, as if it was still cutting, but the threads overcome that. If a small size doesn't do it, keep going up until you find the one that does.

Amazon, and ebay have plenty of left hand drill bits. I only want to buy Cobalt left hand bits. Drill Hog offers a lifetime warranty but dull just as fast as any others. The Irwin/Hansen ones work well too. I backed out three broken 5/8" Grade 8 bolts yesterday, but the 3/8" bit was too dull to do another one by then. One of those had been in there, broken off, since I bought the tractor used in 1990. That old one came out as easy as the other two. I had broken an EasyOut in one of them. I kind of doubt I'll ever use an EasyOut again.

[steven c newman]

All this assumes that the OP actually snapped off the head of the bolt...to start with.....and, if I read correctly....he did not.

[Stew Denton]

Steven, right, the bolts are still in place.

I have tried a couple of very non-aggressive things which have not worked. I have one or two different sets of easy outs, and have used such to remove broken off bolts and studs in the past. We also have 2 or 3 sets of easy outs in the big tools cabinet in our lab, and i have used such, so am familiar with east outs. However, for the time being, I have no plans to grind off any bolt heads to get to the place I can drill out a bolt, not as long as there is hope to get them loose with the bolt heads still in place.

My thinking as I go after a problem like this one, for example, is usually to go the least aggressive/least destructive routes first and gradually work my way up to more aggressive methods as simpler ones fail. I also figured out a long time ago that I don't know everything, and try to diligently listen to advise, sort through the advise, looking for advise that has worked repeatedly for different folks. I then try to pick the route that seems best. Further, if I have a friend, co-worker, or know someone that is better than I am at doing something like this, I will let them do such. That is what happened the last time I had this situation, one of the other Neanders got the machine screw out for me, and it was very obvious to me that he was extremely good at this type of work.

I also thought that I can't be the only Neander that has faced this same problem, thus I asked for advise above. I think I have been given some very good advise.

Right now I am considering soaking the plane in kerosine, for a week or two, or alternatively going with a penetrating oil like perhaps Kano Kroil, as suggested above. Some of the maintenance guys at the plant are great believers in Kano Kroil. Being an applied research chemist, I have access to a pretty large very high quality oven, etc., so I can try the heating/cooling route, and we do have a drill press in our lab so I can do some careful drilling/easy out work. A friend and coworker also advised that he has used some specialized material that he uses in his work, this to spot cool things to pretty low temperatures. That will cool the screws drastically, and thus cause them to shrink a bit with temperature. He has taken out some very stuck bolts that way.

Heating the bolts is something I also thought about, and might try, but it would be in gradually increasing trials and that would only be after trying other less aggressive methods first. Only after having those methods fail would I consider grinding off bolt heads and trying to drill out/easy out the machine screws. It could come to that, but it would not be the first approach I would try.

At any rate, I appreciate all of the advise above, have been thinking about the various suggestions above, and in the past have actually used many of the techniques suggested. However, I am currently uncertain what the best approach is, and do not want to permanently damage the plane.

Thus, I still want any any other ideas that have been a success, and any other advise that folks believe are the route to take. Any advise from folks who have experience with each of the options above, and can weight out the options, would be especially appreciated.
.
Thanks to all for all the above advise that is already given.

Thanks and regards,

Stew

[Jim Koepke]

Drill Hog offers a lifetime warranty but dull just as fast as any others. The Irwin/Hansen ones work well too. I backed out three broken 5/8" Grade 8 bolts yesterday, but the 3/8" bit was too dull to do another one by then.

Having a Drill Doctor has been great help to me at times like this. Mine sharpens bits at a metal working angle. Otherwise they are sharpened by hand or on my power sharpening system. Maybe one of the things to add to my grindstone is a bit sharpening set up.


My thinking as I go after a problem like this one, for example, is usually to go the least aggressive/least destructive routes first and gradually work my way up to more aggressive methods as simpler ones fail.

A good and logical way to proceed.

jtk

[Tom M King]

I have a "hand impact driver" that has taken out many stuck screws. They used to be called simply impact drivers, but I see now, after the invention of the cordless impact driver, that they are now called hand impact drivers. I think it's a safer method than the cordless impact driver method posted about earlier in the thread. When you tap it with a hammer, it turns the bit every so slightly. You don't have to tap very hard to release a really small screw.

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Lisle-Hand-Impact-Tool-Set-LIS30750/301066583?cm_mmc=Shopping%7CG%7CHC%7CD25T%7C25-31_GARAGE/AUTOMOTIVE%7CNA%7CNA%7c71700000037147756%7c5870000 4141485310%7c92700035285887579&gclid=CjwKCAiAgrfhBRA3EiwAnfF4tmZuFPTCtR4FJpIXPEJG b6UfZEEbuF0GS7957HjFl5no0cTXJnBrWBoCFV0QAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds

I have taken out stuck screws as small as no. 4's with it. Mine only came with a strange sized socket, that only fit the bits that came with it, but I added a couple of sockets for different screwdriver bits than the few that came with it. It's also important for the bit to fit the head of the screw tightly, with no slop, so a set of good bits is good to have with it too. Eveb if one looks questionable, I'll use the hand impact driver to start with, rather than risk ruining the screw head.

I know that what I have added to this thread is not directly applied to the OP case, but just added it so maybe someone reading can get something from my experience.

My drill bit sharpener only does right hand bits. It would be great if it did the proper clearance for left hand bits, but for the few times I ever need one, it's cheaper for me to just buy the bits. It would be great to have one, but the tractor can sit in the shop until the next 3/8" LH gets here for that last bolt.

I also have to enlarge, and retread a 3/4" hole in the cast iron engine block, up to 7/8", or 1" that supports the back of the front end loader, but that's another story. Small test yesterday says that it won't be so bad.

[Bruce Haugen]

Steven, right, the bolts are still in place.



At any rate, I appreciate all of the advise above, have been thinking about the various suggestions above, and in the past have actually used many of the techniques suggested. However, I am currently uncertain what the best approach is, and do not want to permanently damage the plane.

Thus, I still want any any other ideas that have been a success, and any other advise that folks believe are the route to take. Any advise from folks who have experience with each of the options above, and can weight out the options, would be especially appreciated.
.
Thanks to all for all the above advise that is already given.

Thanks and regards,

Stew

If all else fails, go to a machinist. They can get anything out.

[Tony Wilkins]

This was I was going to say. Works a treat. Got mine when I had my old Jag. If you were a bit closer you could stop by and use it (you could if you happen to be this far south anyway)


I have a "hand impact driver" that has taken out many stuck screws. They used to be called simply impact drivers, but I see now, after the invention of the cordless impact driver, that they are now called hand impact drivers. I think it's a safer method than the cordless impact driver method posted about earlier in the thread. When you tap it with a hammer, it turns the bit every so slightly. You don't have to tap very hard to release a really small screw.

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Lisle-Hand-Impact-Tool-Set-LIS30750/301066583?cm_mmc=Shopping%7CG%7CHC%7CD25T%7C25-31_GARAGE/AUTOMOTIVE%7CNA%7CNA%7c71700000037147756%7c5870000 4141485310%7c92700035285887579&gclid=CjwKCAiAgrfhBRA3EiwAnfF4tmZuFPTCtR4FJpIXPEJG b6UfZEEbuF0GS7957HjFl5no0cTXJnBrWBoCFV0QAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds

I have taken out stuck screws as small as no. 4's with it. Mine only came with a strange sized socket, that only fit the bits that came with it, but I added a couple of sockets for different screwdriver bits than the few that came with it. It's also important for the bit to fit the head of the screw tightly, with no slop, so a set of good bits is good to have with it too. Eveb if one looks questionable, I'll use the hand impact driver to start with, rather than risk ruining the screw head.

I know that what I have added to this thread is not directly applied to the OP case, but just added it so maybe someone reading can get something from my experience.

My drill bit sharpener only does right hand bits. It would be great if it did the proper clearance for left hand bits, but for the few times I ever need one, it's cheaper for me to just buy the bits. It would be great to have one, but the tractor can sit in the shop until the next 3/8" LH gets here for that last bolt.

I also have to enlarge, and retread a 3/4" hole in the cast iron engine block, up to 7/8", or 1" that supports the back of the front end loader, but that's another story. Small test yesterday says that it won't be so bad.

[Tom M King]

I just checked to see if there was a left hand bit attachment for my drill bit sharpener. There is. It's $359.00. I'll keep buying disposable left hand bits. For no more than I use them, the payback period would be never on the sharpener attachment. I might be able to hand sharpen them, but I've never been able to sharpen one like it was when new by hand.

[Jim Koepke]

Hand sharpening is actually fairly easy:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gpuSA-JW-BU

There are a lot of videos on the same subject.

Well, maybe using a grinder isn' the same as hand sharpening, but what the heck.

Often my bits are touched up on a small soft Arkansas or diamond stone before use. They work fine.

jtk

[Tom M King]

I watched the video. No problem sharpening one like that, but I can never get a Cobalt bit to cut into hardened steel, or stainless steel for very long when sharpened by hand. I expect the relief angle is much more critical than HSS cutting a36. My sharpener can make a RH bit cut like a new one, and even put special grinds on the end for things like cutting cast iron. I quit bothering to try to sharpen them by hand on a grinder.

A sharp bit sent long streams of metal out the flutes from those Grade 8 bolts. I'm afraid if I hand sharpened one that one side, or the other would cut better, and the bit might break, which would be a bigger mess than getting the broken bolts out.

The cobalt bit went right through the broken EasyOut. I was a little surprised at that.

[Chris Parks]

A little digging found this:

https://www.victornet.com/alphabetic/Drill-Bits-Jobber-Left-Hand-HSS/103.html

jtk

Sharpen a normal drill left handed

[Jim Koepke]

Sharpen a normal drill left handed

The flutes go the wrong way.

jtk

[Chris Parks]

Heat the screw very hot then spray it instantly from very hot to cold with water. years ago I had lots of bolts to undo all frozen so we heated them very hot and used a BCF fire extinguisher to instantly cool them because the extinguisher came out freezing and the sudden difference in temp caused the bolts to change size and break the corrosion. Worked every time without fail. Apart from the fact that BCF extinguishers are NLA the same principle will work. W had lots of BCF because they were good for cooling beer when were were working out in the bush.

[Chris Parks]

The flutes go the wrong way.

jtk

That's a good enough reason not to do it.:)

[Clark Magnuson]

I am constantly dealing with stuck screws, drilling and tapping holes.
There is some equipment, skill, judgement, and risk involved.
Practice on things that don't matter as much.
Having a mill and left hand drills makes it easier.