DC to blade guard....

[Roy Wall]

Oneida says I'll need a 4" flex hose coming off my 6" drop to get enough air to the blade guard. It will be reduced 4 to 3" ; and then immediatly 3 to 2" to connect.

I already run 5" DC to cabinet base.

My question is...............Will the large flex hose be a hassle for me??:confused:
I'll suspend it vertically for about 3' and then curve another 3 feet to the main ductwork.

Currently using the Fein shop vac and it does very well........just wanting not to hassle with turning on TWO machines for DC.....

I can live with the Fein.........but thought this may be a better option..

[Paul B. Cresti]

Roy,
Not sure what DC system you have but I never had good success with two gates/ports open when I had my Woodsucker. It worked great for one port/gate as this is what it was designed for but the two openings required for both the cabinet hookup and the overhead guard was too much for it. This was even before I changed to my EFSTS. My recent upgrade to the RL160 (5.5ph 3ph motor with almost 18" impeller) can now produce the suction I needed for my saw to have both a 6" and 5" line open. Even this current system only works within reason... a max of two lines/ports open. I would stick with setup you have for now until you decide to upgrade your dc

[Roy Wall]

Paul,

Good observations....

I have the 2hp Super Gorilla.....I got it because Oneida told me it could handle up to TWO - 5" gates at once...........so they do claim.

Just the thought of the bulky 4" hose connecting to the blade guard vs. the thinner 2" line from the Fein...

The Fein does a very good job....it is easy to take off for non -thru cuts; and easy to place left or right out of the way of the workpiece (for rips or CC's)...so it has these advantages.

Just looking for "REAL WORLD" DC hookups to the blade guard. (Paul has given me the first...)

I guess I'm under the impression that VACUUM is always good for smaller duct.......DC works best with larger duct......and the two are coming together.:confused:

[Dan Larson]

Roy,

I have a Oneida 2HP Commercial, with 5" flex attached to my saw cabinet and 4" flex attached to my blade guard. Suction seems to be powerful enough, and I have no issues with the 4" hose getting in the way. I can post a picture of my set-up sometime this weekend if you'd find it helpful.

Dan

[Dennis McDonaugh]

Roy,
Not sure what DC system you have but I never had good success with two gates/ports open when I had my Woodsucker. It worked great for one port/gate as this is what it was designed for but the two openings required for both the cabinet hookup and the overhead guard was too much for it. This was even before I changed to my EFSTS. My recent upgrade to the RL160 (5.5ph 3ph motor with almost 18" impeller) can now produce the suction I needed for my saw to have both a 6" and 5" line open. Even this current system only works within reason... a max of two lines/ports open. I would stick with setup you have for now until you decide to upgrade your dc

Paul, I have that problem with my woodsucker, but only for tools that have two connections like the TS and my router table. I have a dust port under the router table and one in the fence. When I open both gates, suction is very poor. I think it is because the air for both gates has to pass through the small hole in the base plate. However, I can open two gates for different tools and it works pretty well except for my planer and jointer. I think the issues with those two machines has more to do with the design of the machine than the performance of the woodsucker. The delta planer has a very small opening for the dust hood and the jointer leaks air from all kinds of different places in the cabinet which really affects performance. I only open one gate when using either tools.

[Barry O'Mahony]

I can post a picture of my set-up sometime this weekend if you'd find it helpful.

I'd like to see that, if you wouldn't mind.

To addess the orginal question, according to Bill Pent'z site, a table saw needs 400 cfm at both the cabinet and on the guard. For most DC setups, you need 4" pipe to pull 400 CFM through it. Thus the recommendation from Oneida. You can run these two 4" separately back to the DC, or combine them into one 6" (a 6" has 2.25x the cross-section of a 4").

[Guy Boulianne]

Hi Roy.

I am no expert.... in the process of settong up myself, just order that big monkey cousin yesterday (is it a gloat ???).....

For the theory, when you split a line in two, you try to reach a total cross-section of the two lines close to equal the drop you split. If you are way to low, you loose air volume, and airspeed in the main, because of the restriction, of you are way too high, you loose airspeed (succion) in your split branches. Here is the cross-section of different duct diameters and their ratio to the 6" drop:

<TABLE style="WIDTH: 256pt; BORDER-COLLAPSE: collapse" cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width=340 border=0 x:str><COLGROUP><COL style="WIDTH: 103pt; mso-width-source: userset; mso-width-alt: 5010" width=137><COL style="WIDTH: 91pt; mso-width-source: userset; mso-width-alt: 4425" width=121><COL style="WIDTH: 62pt; mso-width-source: userset; mso-width-alt: 2998" width=82><TBODY><TR style="HEIGHT: 15.75pt" height=21><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; WIDTH: 103pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; HEIGHT: 15.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" width=137 height=21>Duct diameter (inches)</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; WIDTH: 153pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-ignore: colspan" width=203 colSpan=2>Cross section (sqare inches)</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 15.75pt" height=21><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; HEIGHT: 15.75pt; 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BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num="0.69444444444444453" x:fmla="=B3/B2">69%</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 15.75pt" height=21><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; HEIGHT: 15.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right height=21 x:num>4</TD><TD class=xl26 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num="12.566370614359172" x:fmla="=PI()*(A4/2)*(A4/2)">12,6</TD><TD class=xl27 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num="0.44444444444444442" x:fmla="=B4/B2">44%</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 15.75pt" height=21><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; HEIGHT: 15.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right height=21 x:num="3.5">3,5</TD><TD class=xl26 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; 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It's based on this that it is recommended (by Mr. Pentz, and others) to split a 6" drop in 5" 3.5". By reducing at 2" at the blade cover you add some restriction (but à full 4" is big here.....) but if tou would use 2" hose for a few feet you would add even more resistance and loose some volume there, that is why it is recommended to reduce at the port and not at the split.

I would question the assertion to run two 5" gates open, depending on the configuration of your duct runs and the tools you may have enough volume at each, for other tool it could be insufficient. On the opposite, if you run with too small of an open branch, you may miss some airspped in your main (probably a few feet of 7" at the inlet) and have dust setting up; in wich case you should partially open another gate somewhere.

Hi Denis, about "... I have a dust port under the router table and one in the fence. I think it is because the air for both gates has to pass through the small hole in the base plate. However, I can open two gates for different tools and it works pretty well..." maybe it is because you dont have enough air entering your base cabinets, the DC needs to pull enough air and some port are too restrictive, many bore holes in the base cabinets of the router table to give enough air to the bottom port. As for the jointer and the planer, the leaks can be what allow the DC to pull enough air to do the work by being not too restrictive....

That is what I understand about it.

Heve fun setting-it up, for me it could be during my Christmas/New Yeay hollidaus or just after.
Guy

[Roy Wall]

Guys,

Thank you mucho for the insight and technical info........

The setup Oneida suggested was precisely as you say....4" wye off a 6" drop for the blade guard....then continuing down another 5 feet for a 5" wye off the same 6" main drop. These are separate drops - not a 6x5x4 single wye...

Technically, according to Guy's chart.....I'm just a touch "over" with the 5" flex on the bottom of the cabinet. However, the 5" flex is "CHOKED DOWN" to a 5x4 reducer at the cabinet port.

Looks like the science & numbers will hold up - Plus Oneida promised me it would be IMPROVED (at least the equal) blade guard DC over the Vacuum.

I'll get it ordered....

[Joe Tedesco]

Hello, I am new to this forum. I frequent the Felder Owners Group and recently came across this forum.

I too just wrestled with this same issue. After speaking with Oneida, they strongly recommended against 2" to the blade guard. I wound up going with a short run of 3" flex connecting to a 5" branch off my 6" main. I am happy with the performance so far. I got creative and stretched the 2"-to-3" plastic reducer to give it a cleaner look.

Here are some pics.

-Joe

P.S. - I've been browsing the archives, some really good info on this forum!

26832 26833

[Roy Wall]

Joe,

First of all--- welcome to the creek!!

and a great first post I might add......:) Nice setup!!!

I too, have the Felder guard. I measured 2" o.d. Oneida has me using a 4" flex drop -- so I'll use a couple of combination fitting to 'choke" it down to size....

Glad to know it works well - that's the whole idea behind it!!

Thanks for the pics!!!:D :)

[Norman Hitt]

One other thing to think about, Roy, is that if you are using a zero clearance plate, most of the dust will come out of the blade guard, and only a small amt will go down inside the saw, (as reported by many others). Some have changed their saw's cabinet dc outlet to 6", and say they just partially close that gate when they are using a zc and the blade guard to balance the amount of airflow necessary at each outlet, and if there is any buildup in the cabinet at all, they just shut the blade guard gate and open the cabinet gate fully for a few seconds after the cut is made and the cabinet empties almost instantly. Lots of different ways to skin a cat, I guess.:)

[Roy Wall]

One other thing to think about, Roy, is that if you are using a zero clearance plate, most of the dust will come out of the blade guard, and only a small amt will go down inside the saw, (as reported by many others). Some have changed their saw's cabinet dc outlet to 6", and say they just partially close that gate when they are using a zc and the blade guard to balance the amount of airflow necessary at each outlet, and if there is any buildup in the cabinet at all, they just shut the blade guard gate and open the cabinet gate fully for a few seconds after the cut is made and the cabinet empties almost instantly. Lots of different ways to skin a cat, I guess.:)

Ahhhh,

I got you Norman!! Yes - lots of dust can come flying out over the top of the blade....so Maximize that airflow while cutting if needed - then open the bottom gate for cleanout -- good thoughts...

My saw does have a dedicated shroud around/underneath the blade with 4" hose leading directly out the base cabinet - pretty efficient!

[Dale Thompson]

Oneida says I'll need a 4" flex hose coming off my 6" drop to get enough air to the blade guard. It will be reduced 4 to 3" ; and then immediatly 3 to 2" to connect.

I already run 5" DC to cabinet base.

My question is...............Will the large flex hose be a hassle for me??:confused:
I'll suspend it vertically for about 3' and then curve another 3 feet to the main ductwork.

Currently using the Fein shop vac and it does very well........just wanting not to hassle with turning on TWO machines for DC.....

I can live with the Fein.........but thought this may be a better option..

Roy,
Reducing a dust collector run from 6" to 2" will not pick up ANYTHING! :( Even the smoke from a stale cigar would be virtually undetectable. The fact that you are thinking of using flex hose makes the problem even worse.

Your shop vac works because it is a, "positive displacement pump". In other words, it will create "suction". If you block the hose for an extended period of time, the motor will over-heat and burn up. A dust collector is like a window fan. It is a, "non-positive displacement pump". It will develop high air flow volume when unobstructed but will NOT create "suction" or, in other words, a partial vacuum. You can block your collector ports and the impeller will simply bypass the air restriction and keep running. ;)

If you need "suction", use a shop vac. If you need high air flow, use an unrestricted dust collector connection. Try to reduce the connection size as little as possible (for example, a reduction from 6" to 4" reduces the cross-sectional area by 225%). Minimize the use of flex hose as much as possible. Flex hose increases the path resistance by as much as ten times or more.
:( :eek:

Just a thought! If Oneida disagrees with me, I would be most happy to discuss the hydraulic/pneumatic physics with them. :) :cool:

Dale T.

[Paul B. Cresti]

Hey I am not about to argue with anyone here or talk about how air moves more like water thus this is more like fluid dynamics.... but i can tell you one thing. When I had my WS it did not work well for more than 1 gate open at a time. True my machines are not the "norm" and just about all of them have two ports on them but I never could get enough airflow to do didly at my saw, when it was a CS and now a EFSTS. The machines themselves lose a lot of suction via their dust ports so not only do you need to overcome ductsizes, fittings, possible leaks, flex hose but also the machine itself. The manual of my MM S35 states it needs 1200 cfm for proper dc pickup at the OH guard and the cabinet. It was not until now with this RL160 that I have been able to do that. I think my ductwork is decently laid out and not much flex at all. I do not know if a 2hp DC with what maybe a 12" impeller has enough to overcome two ports and all the previous mentioned SP reducing to provide enough suction at the end. You can calculate until the cows come home all that matters is when you turn the DC on is.... does it work.

[Jim Dunn]

I'm using a 2 1/2" port on my blade guard and a 4" on my table saw. Best results I've ever seen with keeping up with the dust from the top of the blade. I'm using a Jet canister type collector. Maybe more powerful than a WS Paul had? I do need to change the 2 1/2" hose to a flex type as the hose I have on it now doesn't have any flex and consequently won't raise up over the material as I push it through. That's what the string is all about:D. I'm happy with the results I'm currently getting so I doubt I'll change anything buth the hose:cool:

[Joe Tedesco]

My Oneida has a 13.5" fan. Having 2 gates open (branches reducing down to 5" going to the cabinet and 3" going to the guard) appears to be working fine.

In my experience, even the type of cut will impact dust extraction effectiveness on the TS.

The low tech method I use for DC effectiveness is to wait until the next day to see how much fine dust has settled on the tool surfaces :)

-Joe

[Jim Becker]

The reason that a slightly larger duct is recommended to the blade guard is to provide more of a venturi effect at the hood. While the hole there is smaller, there is an acceleration effect as you pull air through it into the larger hose. There are some "within reason" aspects of this...I certainly wouldn't put a 6" hose to a 2.5" port, but a 3" or 4" drop to the same situation is quite effective. But Joe's point about "the cut" being involved in the dust collection efficiency is right on. (Welcome to the 'Creek, Joe!)

[John Renzetti]

Hi, Here's a setup I had on my Felder KF7F. I used a 50mm hose to connect to the 50mm port on the blade guard. Then went to 3" pipe then right away to 5". This worked fine. The saw I have now has an 80mm port and I go right to a 4" then 5" pipe.

[Dale Thompson]

You can calculate until the cows come home all that matters is when you turn the DC on is.... does it work.

Paul,
Truer words were never spoken!! :)

Dale T.

[John Renzetti]

Paul,
Truer words were never spoken!! :)

Dale T.

You got it, Dale. I definetly agree with Paul on that statement. 100%.
take care,
John

[Roy Wall]

You guys are the best......great input and photos!!!

Like I said, the 4" flex hose is on it's way....and I'll choke it down at the blade guard....per Oneida's reccomendation (and confidence I might add..)

GO VENTURI EFFECT!!!:cool: :D

I'll show pics and let you know.......

[Paul B. Cresti]

You got it, Dale. I definetly agree with Paul on that statement. 100%.
take care,
John

Wohoo... Well look at that... three of the most stubborn people on this forum acutaly agree on something ;):)! Oh by that way is it my opinion you agree with or my opinion of my opinion?

[Dan Larson]

Roy,

I have a Oneida 2HP Commercial, with 5" flex attached to my saw cabinet and 4" flex attached to my blade guard. Suction seems to be powerful enough, and I have no issues with the 4" hose getting in the way. I can post a picture of my set-up sometime this weekend if you'd find it helpful.

Dan

As promised, a picture of my TS...

[Jim Becker]

WOh by that way is it my opinion you agree with or my opinion of my opinion?

Com'on...you're making folks think too much on a Saturday morning. :o

[Roy Wall]

As promised, a picture of my TS...

Thanks Dan!!

Nice setup..........to say the least.....:cool:

[Dale Thompson]

Wohoo... Well look at that... three of the most stubborn people on this forum acutaly agree on something ;):)! Oh by that way is it my opinion you agree with or my opinion of my opinion?

Paul,
I definately agree with you that those three guys are REALLY stubborn. :) However, I don't know what sensitive, empathetic guys like you and I can do to change them. ;) I think it's a gene gone wild or something like that. :confused:

With regard to your second sentence, I think that the same philosophical question could be asked about Lincoln's Gettysburgh Address. Greatness is greatness. LIVE WITH IT!! :D :)

Dale T.

[Paul B. Cresti]

Just so you guys don't think I am nuts..... I have some shots of my DC system. I think I have my ductwork laid out decently and there is not much room for improvement. Like I said before, it has not been until now with my MM160 ;) that I have achieved adequate suction at my MM S35. When I had the Woodsucker it also could not keep up with MM FS41 16" j/p. It was towards the end of the line, so I had to move it closer. The only machine that it did handle well, that had two ports, was the my MM T50 shaper. Since the shaper hood and internal hookup was so enclosed I guess there was not much suction loss. At the S35, the 6" line wyes into a 5" section of flex and then reduces into the 4" OH guard tube.. the main 6" line continues under the saw to the cabinet which then reduces to 5" at the saw itself. I still get some stuff on the table as I use it but it is much less now. Edging of course still produces a significant amount of dust but I could come with a special hood for that if I wanted to.

[David Less]

http://www.woodworkersweb.com/modules/gallery/albums/albuv69/over_head.sized.jpg

[Dan Forman]

David---That's a sweet looking setup, design it yourself?

Dan

[John Renzetti]

Wohoo... Well look at that... three of the most stubborn people on this forum acutaly agree on something ;):)! Oh by that way is it my opinion you agree with or my opinion of my opinion?

Don't push it Paul, I have back to back late night flights and got another one today. I'm grouchy. :)
I think I agreed with your opinion and the opinion of the opinion. I actually also really didn't completely disagree with your opinion of the dado cutting procedure but my opinion of your opinion on that opinion was different.
take care,
John

[David Less]

---That's a sweet looking setup, design it yourself?

Hi Dan,

Yes,
Another one of my non cellulose projects. Thanks for the compliment

David

[Paul B. Cresti]

Don't push it Paul, I have back to back late night flights and got another one today. I'm grouchy. :)
I think I agreed with your opinion and the opinion of the opinion. I actually also really didn't completely disagree with your opinion of the dado cutting procedure but my opinion of your opinion on that opinion was different.
take care,
John

Not that I want the last word on this or anything :) ....... but I guess I will go on record saying, "I agree with your opinion of my opinion which is my opinion of the previously asked question in which I stated my opinion" and that is my opinion on that.

[tod evans]

john and paul on the same page!!!!!!! i almost fell out of my chair. all you guys with the bright shiney d/c pipe make me jealous! tod

[Steven Wilson]

My system is designed to have two 5" blast gates open at the same time. I suspend the 4" hose going to my blade guard via a rope and block and tackle affair, keeps undue stress off of the guard and works very well. When I don't need the hose I can pull it up to the ceiling.

[Dale Thompson]

"I agree with your opinion of my opinion which is my opinion of the previously asked question in which I stated my opinion" and that is my opinion on that.

Paul,
You've got to stay away from that hallucinatory sawdust coming from those exotic woods you're using. :) I had the intestinal fortitude to "dry out" and now don't have an opinion on ANYTHING - unless it's something that I have an opinion on. :confused: :cool:

Dale T.

[Jim Dunn]

Dale, opinion noted!! I think?

Jim