Establishing primary bevel

[Dan McGonigle]

Hey guys, just looking for some advice on the quickest, and cheapest, way to establish and re-establish primary bevels on plane irons and chisels. I use the MKII honing guide and waterstones for sharpening and am very satisfied. It’s establishing a bevel on a new (used) tool or getting back to primary when needed that I am not happy with. I’ve always used my honing guide and sandpaper on granite for this. It’s just not cutting it (pun intended). Sandpaper wears out quickly, is expensive, and the process takes way too long. Right now I’m looking at either the DMT diasharp stones (probably 220x) or the Veritas grinding jig for my Rikon slow speed grinder. I just can’t justify working a bevel on sandpaper for over an hour anymore and going through several sheets of sandpaper every time isn’t cost effective. Anyone using the Diasharp stones? How long do they take to cut a new bevel or correct a bevel? I’m definitely leaning towards Diasharp stone - I don’t like the idea of risking overheating a tool on a grinder. Bottom line for me at this point is speed (without sacrificing accuracy). Look forward to hearing your opinions.

Dan

[James Pallas]

Dan I have a diasharp 220 and use it for what I consider minor work, like a chip, small one. I use a high speed 6” grinder for major work. I have 50 years on grinders so not afraid of overheating. I purchased one of those new fancy steel wheels, it’s nice. I got along just fine with 36 grit gray wheels for years. Grinder, maybe the 220 stone a little and than my smooth flat river rock and away I go to the work. Resetting a bevel with a 220 stone I can do but it takes too long when the grinder is right there.
Jim

[Jim Koepke]

Hi Dan,

This tends to be one of the moving targets of sharpening. It can make a big difference in the quantity and the frequency. My processing of old blades has died down over the last few years. At one time it was common for me to have 5-10 blades a week that needed some work. For all around work many years ago my choice was the Veritas® Mk.II Power Sharpening System (http://www.leevalley.com/us/Wood/page.aspx?p=48435&cat=1,43072) based on a very good review in Fine Woodworking magazine. One of my first purchases after receiving the set up was to purchase extra blade holders to allow five blades to be worked at the same time. This allowed for blades to cool while the working continued. After moving to Washington a four foot long block of granite was acquired from a monument maker to use for mounting pressure sensitive abrasive material. This also allowed me to work a single blade without overheating the metal.

The problem with a powered system is how quickly an little error can cause a lot more work.

Cleaning up a bevel is usually a lot faster than changing a bevel.

jtk

[Vincent Tai]

If price is an important factor I’d still go with sandpaper, (good quality) 80 grit roll of it, PSA. Longer piece of granite, 24”; cut outs from sink etc might work. A straightedge will tell you enough. However a grinder will be much faster and save you lots of time. CBN wheels cut faster and much cooler.

I don’t like diamond stones for these sorts of purposes. Once they wear a little they become more and more unpleasant when you are trying to remove a lot of steel. You tend to use more and more pressure on them to get them to cut like when it was new which just accelerates wear. Perhaps if you were a really causal user then that’s okay but when you start talking about things like cutting a new bevel or correcting one then that’s a lot of work for diamonds. Once they get rounded they are useless for coarse tasks. My 120x dia lapping plate ate steel like crazy the night I got it, by a couple weeks in it had slowed quite noticeably. These days it just sort of scratches steel and whimpers. If I had to go with a diamond plate I’d get a 140 Atoma.

If speed is what you’re after then a bench grinder with CBN wheels is the answer. Grab some random chisel you don’t like and then practice a bit, it’s rather easy. An aftermarket tool rest is probably needed to replace most of the rests on affordable grinders. Read up on Derek Cohen’s setup on his site http://www.inthewoodshop.com/WoodworkTechniques/UltimateGrindingSharpeningSetUp.html.

you don’t need the tormek guide if you still plan on using micro bevels and the jig. I still don’t have the tormek and just use the Veritas tool rest.

If time is money then a bench grinder is the far superior option.

[Prashun Patel]

Worksharp and diamond lap discs from eBay. Pro: you can use your mk2 with it so you can go straight from bevel setting to sharpening in the stones. Con: Does not hollow grind, so if you freehand eventually, it’s more challenging (but still doable).

Bench grinder and oneway stand or Robohippy stand and cbn wheel. Pro: fast and more versatile especially if you want to sharpen draw knives or turning tools. Also puts a hollow grind on blade which makes freehanding easier Con: Expensive, and you need a second jig to set the angle. I disliked the Veritas stand for the bench grinder. Too small.

[Brian Eaton]

Dan,

I have the Veritas grinding jig that I use with a variable speed Delta 6" grinder and one of the norton white wheels. Never having had any experience with a grinder before this summer I did blue the corner of one plane blade a bit and had to remove material to get past it but I knew enough from reading to go slow, keep checking the temperature of the blade, and have water close at hand.

I'm really glad that I took the time to learn how to hollow grind primary bevels - it was not necessarily faster at first but the last few planes I've gotten to rehab I realized I've gotten pretty quick with setting a primary bevel at my bench grinder. One thing in particular I've found is that, especially if there is a lot of material to remove, the blade will not heat up too much until the tip of the bevel really starts coming to a point. Once I get close to the edge of the blade I start slowing down and quenching in water more frequently. It takes a bit of practice but is much better than trying to reestablish a primary bevel on sand paper or any kind of stone!1

[Jason Lester]

If you have the Rikon grinder already, just get a good tool rest and you're all set. The Veritas rest and guide work well. Go slow and use one of the highly friable wheels like the Norton 3X.

[Tom M King]

The Veritas Grinding Tool Rest is really nice. It's a lot more rigid than you might think by looking at the pictures. I use one on my grinder with CBN wheel. I also have a Tormek, but would recommend the Veritas as first choice for your grinder.

I have an X-coarse diamond plate too. Pretty soon, it's going out in about 45 feet of water to join some other things that have been relegated to the Only Good for Seeing How Far You Can Throw It category.

[Dan McGonigle]

Wow, thanks guys. Looks like the tool rest is the way to go. If I hollow grind my primary bevel on a wheel, should I go straight from grinder to my stones and work the secondary bevel? Or grind, work the primary with my 1000x, then polsih the secondary with my 6000x and 8000x? I suppose the latter would make sense? I’ve never hollow ground so it’ll take some getting used to.

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Dan

Since you are honing your edges with the Mk2 guide, your goal for efficient sharpening is a micro secondary bevel. It does not matter whether you use a hollow or flat grind for this.

(For clarity, I prefer the term "secondary bevel" for a bevel at a higher angle than the primary bevel, and use "microbevel" to refer to a very small bevel. Some use the term interchangeably. The difference becomes relevant when freehand sharpening on a hollow grind. A discussion for another time).

You require a bench grinder to create a hollow grind. You may not have one. In which case, if you have a belt sander, you can create this guide. I designed this about 15 years ago, before moving to hollow grinds ...

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/WoodworkTechniques/BeltSanderGrinderMkI_html_m661c553.jpg

The article is at: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/WoodworkTechniques/BeltSanderGrinderMkI.html

A more sophisticated version followed that one ...

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/WoodworkTechniques/BeltSanderBladeGrinderMK%20II_html_3b80139b.jpg

Article: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/WoodworkTechniques/BeltSanderBladeGrinderMK%20II.html

Use the coarsest sandpaper you can, say 100-120 grit. Grinding full bevels by beltsander is a relatively safe way as the belts cool down. Grind at about 25 degrees, and then hone on the Mk2 at 30 degrees.

If you choose to go down the route of a bench grinder plus CBN wheel, which is how I do this now (however I freehand on the hollow), then the link given previously is worth looking at: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/WoodworkTechniques/UltimateGrindingSharpeningSetUp.html

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Robert Hazelwood]

Use your grinder. Just be careful and you won't overheat anything. It's not as scary as you think.

A 220 grit diamond stone is much slower than 80 grit PSA sandpaper, which is the best hand-powered means of grinding I've found. I really only use diamond stones now for flattening and conditioning other sharpening stones, they work great for that.

If you're using a grinder there's no need to work the primary with your sharpening stones, that will just be the grinder's job. The purpose of the grinder is to make the secondary bevel smaller, basically, so there is less work to do with your stones. After several sharpenings the secondary will begin to get large- then you grind it back until it's almost (but not completely) gone. Normally I would never grind all the way to the edge.

[James Pallas]

I agree with sandpaper for big jobs. A 220 grit diamond stone is far slower. Think about it. If your sanding wood you start at 80 or 100 grit and work your way up with maybe 120 or 150 to 180 and than 220. If you start at 220 your going to be rubbing a long time on wood. Your working with steel here. For resetting bevels or flattening 80 or even 60 is far better if you don’t have power equipment.
Jim

[Phil Mueller]

Dan, I was in your exact place about a year ago. As Vincent said, even my extra coarse diamond stone had worn down and took hours to reahb a plane iron. Made the investment to go to grinder and CBN wheels with an aftermarket tool rest. Night and day difference. Once the primary hollow grind is done on the grinder, it’s just a few swipes on stones to get the secondary. Instead of dreading a rehab or new bevel angle, I now kind of look forward to it. Obviously, you don’t have to invest in the CBN wheels, but they do work well, and produce no mess (other than the metal dust from the tool).

[Frederick Skelly]

Dan, I was in your exact place about a year ago. As Vincent said, even my extra coarse diamond stone had worn down and took hours to reahb a plane iron. Made the investment to go to grinder and CBN wheels with an aftermarket tool rest. Night and day difference. Once the primary hollow grind is done on the grinder, it’s just a few swipes on stones to get the secondary. Instead of dreading a rehab or new bevel angle, I now kind of look forward to it. Obviously, you don’t have to invest in the CBN wheels, but they do work well, and produce no mess (other than the metal dust from the tool).

Same here. To me, the diamond stones are tedious for establishing a bevel and even removing chips.

So, like Phil, I also bought a low speed grinder ($100) and cbn wheel ($150). Could have saved that much money if I'd just skipped buying the coarse DMTs and gone straight to this method. But I was a hard head. I spent waaaaay too much time and money before I came to this easy and affordable solution.

I have a little Christmas money burning a hole in my pocket and don't need it for a higher priority tool. So today I'm going to upgrade that setup by adding a Tormek tool rest and square edge jig, as shown on Derek Cohen's website.

Fred

[Miles Shea]

I bought the Veritas tool rest + grinding jig a couple months ago, and I think that would be your best option, especially since you already have a nice grinder. For rehabbing chisels I've used a 140x diamond stone, sandpaper on granite, a belt sander, and a hand-crank grinder with the veritas setup, and the grinder has been the easiest method for setting bevels by far. Even though I'm not as likely to burn a chisel on a hand-crank grinder, I keep a finger or two on the blade back which lets me know when it starts heating up.

I still use the belt sander for big framing chisels, or chisels that need a lot of metal removed (ex. if it's been abused and needs to be ground back a bit). In the latter case, I just use the belt sander to kind of rough-out the bevel shape, then move to the grinder. For this I've been using the blue HF sanding belts intended for metal, and they last a surprisingly long time.

But in general, for plane irons and normal-sized chisels without significant damage, that tool rest + grinding jig combo has made life a lot easier!

Oh, and another thing that's helped is having a tiny lightweight double square to help align chisels in the grinding jig. The jig alignment pins for 90 degrees, but a lot of the things I've put in it taper down somewhat front-to-rear. So I use the square to make sure that the tapered sides are equally out of square on both sides, so that the chisel's center line is 90 degrees to the jig.

[Mark Rainey]

Yes, I too am tired of grinding away on sandpaper altering angles on my plane blades. These 60 year old hands are hurting in the winter. Time for the Rikon with CBN wheels from Ken. But what tool rest/ grinding jig to pair with it. The CBN wheels are 1 1/2 inches wide. The Veritas will acommodate only a one inch wheel. Which rest/jig is the best?

[Vincent Tai]

Yes, I too am tired of grinding away on sandpaper altering angles on my plane blades. These 60 year old hands are hurting in the winter. Time for the Rikon with CBN wheels from Ken. But what tool rest/ grinding jig to pair with it. The CBN wheels are 1 1/2 inches wide. The Veritas will acommodate only a one inch wheel. Which rest/jig is the best?

Mark,
I cut the Veritas one to fit. A hack saw and a bit of filing. The aluminum is easy to cut. Couple minutes and it fit the wider wheels just fine. Alternatively if you don't want to desecrate a brand new rest then I think the Tormek ones are the pretty solid albeit pricey. The Tormek system and family of jigs is a plus when you do a variety of things.

Edit; I forgot to mention the Wolverine one. Very solid; I used one at school for a while, the tool rest for grinding "flat woodworking tools" is dead simple and basic but well made.

[Charles Guest]

A plain-Jane 6" grinder with whatever wheel comes with. An upgrade to a white wheel later is cheap enough. A better rest would be nice, but hardly necessary as long as whatever comes with the grinder won't move when it's tightened.

Don't overthink, or overspend. You just need to be able to present the tool or cutter to the wheel at an angle. The rest is cake. Dip frequently in water while you're learning, but you'll be able to dispense with this later. Unless the tool is chipped, the grinder should never shorten it. You don't grind to a burr when reestablishing or creating the primary. Only your honing stones create a burr.

[Mark Rainey]

Thanks for the helpful information Vince & Charles.

[Derek Cohen]

Yes, I too am tired of grinding away on sandpaper altering angles on my plane blades. These 60 year old hands are hurting in the winter. Time for the Rikon with CBN wheels from Ken. But what tool rest/ grinding jig to pair with it. The CBN wheels are 1 1/2 inches wide. The Veritas will acommodate only a one inch wheel. Which rest/jig is the best?

If you want to use the Veritas grinding stand, simply saw out the excess to fit it to the width of your chosen CBN wheel. It is made of aluminium and easy to work. You can also use a thin cut off wheel on a Dremel or 4" grinder.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[steven c newman]

Hmmm...
400031400032400033400034
Old Craftsman grinder...couple chunks of scrap...maybe a bolts or two....blue cup is filled with tap water....YMMV...

[Derek Cohen]

That's very helpful, Steven. I'm sure that the OP thanks you.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Mark Rainey]

Derek & Steve, thank you for your input. I appreciate the many viewpoints to help with my situation!

[steven c newman]

The metal tool rest was drilled, to except a bolt. Wood was notched for a tight fit around the wheel. Wingnut that holds the toolrest in place was re-used. Range of motion for the tool rest allows me to set the angle I need. There was a jig ( second photo) that I could slide the irons/chisel back and forth. Got so used to doing this by hand, did without the jig. Fingertips on the top of the tool, tells when the tool is getting a tad too warm. Then a dunk into the cup of water.

Have used a beltsander.....and a honing guide, for a long time. MK1 guide rode on the spinning belt, with the belt running away from the guide. Bevel angles were set using the guide's jig. Still have that jig.

I grind to get a decent edge, square and to the angle I want. Comes out a bit hollow ground.....honing guide and the beltsander to flatten the hollow into a single, flat bevel. Then oilstones, and then wet-or-dry paper up to 2,500 grit.....then a strop....YMMV...

[Brandon Speaks]

I would not use a DMT 220 to do faster work than sand paper, it comes after the 80 gr paper. If you want faster a grinder is the way to go, or belt sander and a jig like Derik's would work too.

[David Silverson]

As you said you already have a Rikon slow speed grinder I would think a CBN wheel is the best way to go. Use any tool rest you feel comfortable with. I think the Tormek one the best although a bit pricy. Derek’s system is excellent.

[Dan McGonigle]

Thank you all for your help. It seems a grinder or sharpening system (workshop, tormek, etc.) is fastest. The Veritas grinding jig and tool rest look like a good value and is well reputed. Staying 90 degrees to the wheel is important to me so I can go straight to my honing guide.

[Kevin Smira]

As you said you already have a Rikon slow speed grinder I would think a CBN wheel is the best way to go. Use any tool rest you feel comfortable with. I think the Tormek one the best although a bit pricy. Derek’s system is excellent.

For anyone else reading and wondering...the Rikon slow speed grinder, model 80-805 is on sale at Woodcraft through 1/31 for $109.99. I think this grinder gets consistently good reviews and "good bang for the buck" status. I am going to purchase one just to re-establish primary bevels. From there, I go to my Shaptons and put a secondary/tertiary bevel on my plane irons/chisels. I have a high speed grinder at work that I used last week, and it's just too fast, and the wheel grit was too high. I wound up having to go and re-establish all my bevels using my MKII and my Trend 300...took forever! I don't have any PSA sandpaper locally, so that was out of the question... My wife does needlepoint/knitting/crocheting/etc and she is always saying something to the effect of "crap, I messed that up. Let me see if i can fix this with what I have." To which my response is "yarn is cheap, sanity isn't!"

[Mark Rainey]

Kevin, I placed my order yesterday. With shipping & tax it will come to about $135, BUT you can request 10% off ( they have a code on the back of catalog which I did not have on me but I they honored anyway ). I ordered the Veritas sharpening platform & jig - Lee Valley has free shipping till Jan 7. Prrhaps after a bit I will consider CBN wheel bit this is a start.

[michael langman]

I was curious why no one mentioned the Grizzly slow speed wet grinder for primary bevels. It does a good job at a reasonable price.
The downside of it is the setup in getting a bevel square to the chisel or plane blade, but as one uses it ,it becomes quicker to set up.

[Peter Christensen]

You have the Rikon grinder and it comes with the white aluminium oxide wheels so no need to change them until they are worn to nubs or you have a lot of money to play with. The key to using it is to dress the wheels often to keep them sharp and not glazed over. You can get wheel dressers of all kinds. I made mine from a diamond saw blade that a contractor was using to cut through the 8"concrete floors where I worked. He had several worn ones and gave them to me. You can try road crews sawing up pavement. Cut the wheel into pie shaped wedges with an angle grinder or plasma cutter, dress the edges and poke one into a handle, put a few on the shelf, and give the rest to your woodworking pals. Harder to find that works really well is the end from a rock drill. The kind for drilling blasting holes and cores. They have lots of big diamonds in them and they work well.

[Vincent Tai]

The Rikon comes with a diamond dresser, it works well. Good to know about alternatives though, thanks for sharing that.

[David Silverson]

That Rikon is not the 1 hp one that Lee Valley sells is it?

[Kevin Smira]

That Rikon is not the 1 hp one that Lee Valley sells is it?

No, the model I referred to earlier is the 1/2 hp model. However, I hear really good things about it so I will be picking one up...