Educate me on Shapers

[ChrisA Edwards]

So I thought I had all the power tools that I would ever need, naive, I know.

I was watching a woodworking show on PBS and my daughter asked me if I had all the tools the guy was using on the show, and then I realized that I didn't own a Shaper.

I have two routers in lifts in router tables, one with a PC75182. So I'm trying to decide whether a Shaper would be a useful addition to the shop.

I'm just a hobbyist, but don't spare reasonable expense when I get the desire for a tool.

I'm looking at and trying to educate myself on 3HP-5HP Shapers in the $1500-$2400 range, 230V single phase. So far it looks like my choices are Grizzly, Laguna, Jet and ShopFox.

And should I consider a power feeder?

So what should I not compromise on, spindle size, multiple speeds, throat plate size?

This will also probably be one of those tools that I may definitely look for used as well.

Thanks

[Mark Bolton]

Search the archives. There are days if not weeks of full time reading on shapers. A mile of it very recently covered and several thousand miles more in the not so distant past. All completely relevant and all completely accessible with the "search box". The search box is a very handy tool.

[Mike Cutler]

Chris
It really depends on what you do.
If you have the room, and the budget supports it, yes.
There are multitudes of shapers for sale on Craigslist all over the country. For much less $$$$ than new, you can by a shaper with a power feeder and cutters, and all for less than the cost of a new shaper alone.

[Jared Sankovich]

Shapers and feeders are dirt cheap.. tooling is the expensive part.

Get both

[Bill Dufour]

Not much to go wrong with a shaper. used is fine as long as spindle bore is not worn. Make sure the fence can use a big dust collection hose. I have 1.5 Hp grizzly and it works for me. I have even built doors with it. It is really for cabinets. For you I think any shaper with a factory cabinet will be big enough. If you can see the motor without opening the cabinet it is too small. They sell cheap on used market due to low demand. Ask if there are extra spindles around. I would budget $400 for a bare machine, more with knives.
I had a little sears cast iron from the 1950's with a home made cabinet. Scary to use, only 1/2" spindle. fence only allowed shop vac hose.
Bil lD.

[Mike Cutler]

Chris

I was thinking more about your post and I thought I would try to address some of your questions directly, rather than in general.

I personally would not buy a shaper less than 3HP,a nd I think 5HP would be ideal. They make lowered powered models that perform very well, but 3HP would be the minimum for me. A personal preference.

Spindle sizes;
1-1/4" is the "norm". Most every company that makes shaper cutters makes their tooling in 1-1/4". 30mm is also very common.

1" This is kind of an odd duck. Most of the tooling used on a 1" spindle will be 1-1/4" tooling with a T-Bushing adapter. At least all of mine is.

3/4" Quite a bit of tooling for this size, but once you start looking at cabinet making sizes, it gets more limited.

1/2". Not as much tooling. but just about every 3/4" spindle cutter ships with a T-bushing adapter.

Spindles come as a separate piece, which is set into the cartridge. This way one machine can accommodate more than one size of cutter.

Spindles also come as an integrated unot. My 1" spindle and cartridge are a single piece. My 1/2" and 3/4" spindles are interchangeable, but the cartridge bearing assembly remains in the machine. If I want to use the 1" spindle, the cartridge bearing for the 1/2" and 3/4" has to come out. The 1" spindle is what is in my machine 95% of the time.

You'll need an assortment of spacers, shims, and bushing with spindles to get the correct heights.

I just bought my first power feeder about a few weeks back after many years of using a shaper without one. I like it! and should have bought one a long time ago. Mine is a 3 wheeled, 1/2HP model. I understand the 4 wheel models are better, but I'm definitely not an expert.

Throat size is variable based on the cutter in the machine. The shaper though uses false tables as the norm, to close this distance and control material. Kind of the ZCI solution for shapers.

Dust collection. YES! Shapers spew out a lot of dust and debris.

Fences.
There don't seem to be many makers of aftermarket fences for shapers. Accura and Aigner come to mind. The Aigners are pretty expensive and the Accura fences are limited in their availability. There is one for sale on Amazon right now for $200.00, but I don't know if it's a complete unit. I have a Delta shaper fence on mine, and it's kind of finicky. It's pretty easy to throw it out of whack.

Shaper cutters
-Tooling, cutters, can be very expensive, but there is lots, and lots, available used all the time.
-If you're a hobbyist, like I am, you will probably need a limited assortment of cutters. Rebate, Groover, Glue joints, would probably be the bulk. Profiles would be project specific, but a multi radius cutter for edge work would be included also.
-Cutters come as insert type and carbide tipped where the cutting edge is brazed to the cutter body.
-Cabinet sets can cost as much as you want them too, but expect to start out at about $300.00 for a brazed cabinet set. Again though, there are lots of cabinet sets for sale used, everywhere. When I bought my shaper it came with two cabinet sets, and an interior door set, as well as 20 or so more cutters of different types. It's doubtful I will use any of these cutters with the exception of a T&G cutter set and Drawer Joint cutter.
-For a hobbiest, a brazed cutter will probably last a lifetime, other than maybe a common groover size like 1/4". You're just never going to put the linear feet of material past a cutter head that a production shop will.

[ChrisA Edwards]

Thank you. much appreciated.

[Martin Wasner]

Be patient and keep your eyes peeled. I just bought a SAC TS120 for $400.

It doesn't run. Woopty dooo. I'm betting within seven beers and $200 to replace some garbage Italian electrical component, it'll be operational.

Tooling adds up quickly, but inserts are cheap.

Get a feeder.

[brent stanley]

Thank you. much appreciated.

Hi Chris, don't be too discouraged by the cost of tooling. If you're not anticipating huge production runs, a euroblock that accepts cheap replaceable knives can quickly be cheaper than the equivalent good quality router bits. Shapers are far more versatile and suited to small shops than many realize. I did a little video series on shapers for small shops... https://youtu.be/mylYGzZC2yU

B

[ChrisA Edwards]

Thank you, I watched all of those yesterday just before I started this thread.

[brent stanley]

Thank you, I watched all of those yesterday just before I started this thread.

Cool! Fire away if you have any questions!

B

[Rod Sheridan]

A shaper is probably the most versatile machine in the shop, along with the band saw.

I have a tilting spindle, sliding table shaper, it gets a lot of use in a hobby shop.

For tooling you'll need a carbide rebate head, an adjustable slotting cutter and a Euroblock 40 mm head that takes HSS knives. You should purchase MAN rated tooling which has a reduced risk of kickback incidents.

The cost of HSS knives and limiters for the 40mm head is about the same cost as a good router bit, and will produce superior results in solid wood.

A stock feeder should also be considered a necessity for safety and work quality...........Regards, Rod.

[Mike Hollingsworth]

Took me a couple years to realize that router tables (small hole) are cutter up and shapers (giant hole) are cutter down.

[Robert Engel]

I think Mike summed it up pretty well.

IMO shapers are intended for production shops. Power feeders are a must (minimum that's a $700 item -- try finding a used one!!) Cutters are more expensive. Machines take up space. Dust collection is an issue to address.

So with 2 (yes 2) routers, what will a shaper do that you can't already do?

Or do you have that disease "see the tool, buy the tool, find out you don't need the tool," LOL

[Jared Sankovich]

So with 2 (yes 2) routers, what will a shaper do that you can't already do?


Single pass coping, sticking and panel raising (to include cleaner from both more tangential cutter geometry and sharper hss or carbide insert tooling.
Tenons
Large Rebates
Moulding / architectural millwork

Basically larger / deeper profiles with better surface finish done much faster and more consistently.

[brent stanley]

I think Mike summed it up pretty well.

IMO shapers are intended for production shops. Power feeders are a must (minimum that's a $700 item -- try finding a used one!!) Cutters are more expensive. Machines take up space. Dust collection is an issue to address.

So with 2 (yes 2) routers, what will a shaper do that you can't already do?

Or do you have that disease "see the tool, buy the tool, find out you don't need the tool," LOL

Typically a shaper will make nice shavings that are easier to collect and by default a LOT less nasty dust. It also produces a much nicer finish, and with a replaceable knife euroblock is much cheaper than decent quality router bits. If you get into rail and stile work, you can often get both cope and stick cutters on one knife which makes it much cheaper than router bits.

A block like the Whitehill combi head gives you the most commonly used head (rebate block) along with the second most commonly used head (euroblock limiter head) in one head for significant cost savings.

I never use my router table anymore, and I'm not a production shop.

B

[David Kumm]

Think about larger bites out of hardwood using a 1/2" spindle supported by a small collet, and small bearings placed fairly close together vs a 1.25 or 30mm spindle with an even larger taper, much larger bearings spaced much farther apart and run by an induction motor. I'm a hobby guy and don't even like small panel cutters on a router let alone profiling passage doors even 1" rail and stile cabinet stock. A shaper allows the hobby guy to use profiles that are unusual, more complicated, and have more depth and width than is commonly found even on commercial work. It can set your work apart from the herd. Dave

[Mark Bolton]

The old school ludites will argue a feeder isnt necessary and lament of the days of old when men with hairy chests fed all sorts of things safely manually (which we all do to this day when needed) but the simple fact of the matter is if your contemplating a shaper and are not factoring in a feeder in that expense you are wasting your time. A shaper in any shop is mainly advantageous with regards to a feeder. Operator fatigue, cut quality, tooling life, increased throughput. We all hand feed coping, template work, and so on, but a shaper really comes to light in a small shops mind when you start running parts with a feeder and your physical exertion goes down by a factor of 40, your worry, your anxiety when you see an 8" cutter whip up to speed.

The shaper itself will be dwarfed in expense and learning curve in comparison to the feeder and the tooling. A shaper is a just a motor and a spindle. Basically a table saw. The nuance is in the toolding, feeder, fencing, and so on. A comatic DC40 feeder will easily be twice as much as an import shaper new. Tooling will dwarf the cost of the shaper in short order, euroblock or otherwise. That said, the end result will be miles away from a router table. Whether or not you need that is a question only you can answer.

If your are someone who simply needs to acquire tools regardless of their advantage to your workflow, then I can only appreciate your bank account and its ability to throw money at a tool that doesnt give you direct benefit. We dont buy tools that dont have a direct impact on our profitability just because we saw the tool on a TV program or some young tike challenged our "tool status" because we dont have one.

Do your math, and let the spread sheet tell you if its a profitable investment.

[Cary Falk]

I don't have much more to add that hasn't already been said. I say don't skimp on the fence. I bought a Grizzly shaper(based on cost) first and hated a fence. I ended up upgrading to a Laguna Pro shaper to get a better fence and it makes a world of difference.

[Mike Cutler]

Hi Chris, don't be too discouraged by the cost of tooling. If you're not anticipating huge production runs, a euroblock that accepts cheap replaceable knives can quickly be cheaper than the equivalent good quality router bits. Shapers are far more versatile and suited to small shops than many realize. I did a little video series on shapers for small shops... https://youtu.be/mylYGzZC2yU

B

I didn't know that was you Brent?? Cool!:cool:
That's a nice series you put together. It's very well done.

Mike

[brent stanley]

I didn't know that was you Brent?? Cool!:cool:
That's a nice series you put together. It's very well done.

Mike

Thanks Mike! I'm a little insecure about my videos, but am trying to get better especially with my big timberframing build coming up that I hope to video document as well. I have a HSS panel raiser video in the editing stream as well I hope to get out soon.

B

[Mike Cutler]

I think Mike summed it up pretty well.

IMO shapers are intended for production shops. Power feeders are a must (minimum that's a $700 item -- try finding a used one!!) Cutters are more expensive. Machines take up space. Dust collection is an issue to address.

So with 2 (yes 2) routers, what will a shaper do that you can't already do?

Or do you have that disease "see the tool, buy the tool, find out you don't need the tool," LOL


Robert

I think a shaper has a valid use in the hobbiest shop. It's just that a person has to keep things in perspective as to equipment selection.
I admire some of the machinery, shapers, I've seen here through the years, but it's just not practical, money wise, for a guy in his garage shop.

You are right though, power feeders by themselves do not come up for sale often on Craigslist, but there are a ton of them sold connected to a shaper.;) I was pretty close to buying a used shaper, with a power feeder, just to get the power feeder, when I found the one I bought in early December.
I know some folks don't like to buy used equipment, and I get that, but the money saved can just be incredible. One seller near me was selling two Powermatic 26's with feeders, fences, and cutters, for less than the cost of a new shaper alone. I see this all over the northeast.

I don't use mine a lot, or at least not as much these days, but I personally would not want to go back to the limitations of a router mounted in a table. Each person is different in their individual needs though

[Joe Jensen]

I think Mike summed it up pretty well.

IMO shapers are intended for production shops. Power feeders are a must (minimum that's a $700 item -- try finding a used one!!) Cutters are more expensive. Machines take up space. Dust collection is an issue to address.

So with 2 (yes 2) routers, what will a shaper do that you can't already do?

Or do you have that disease "see the tool, buy the tool, find out you don't need the tool," LOL

It's unlikely you would make that comment if you've used a shaper with a power feeder. I climb cut nearly everything and as a result the cut is amazing. Never any burning, and the cut is so smooth an consistent is needs barely any sanding. Yes its more of an investment but it's not just for production shops.

[ChrisA Edwards]

Thanks for all the replies, I've been looking on Craigslist and eBay to see what is available generally. Seems there's plenty of good used machines, especially some with feeders, but the majority are 3 phase.

I'm trying to educate myself on VFD's and RPC's to see what it takes to convert my single phase to 3 phase so I can open myself to the possibility of getting a very good used Shaper. I started a thread over in the workshops sub-forum and did a search, but I haven't found something that just addresses the requirements in lay mans terms..

The prior owner of my house was an electrician and I think he set up my external garage with two 100A sub panels, one of which has next to nothing in it currently.

I agree with many of the comments about "Do I really need this type of machine, just being a hobbyist", but I now have many machines that I never dreamed of owning 3 years ago, and use most of them frequently pursuing my hobby.

Again, thank you for all your comments and opinions.

[brent stanley]

Thanks for all the replies, I've been looking on Craigslist and eBay to see what is available generally. Seems there's plenty of good used machines, especially some with feeders, but the majority are 3 phase.

I'm trying to educate myself on VFD's and RPC's to see what it takes to convert my single phase to 3 phase so I can open myself to the possibility of getting a very good used Shaper. I started a thread over in the workshops sub-forum and did a search, but I haven't found something that just addresses the requirements in lay mans terms..

The prior owner of my house was an electrician and I think he set up my external garage with two 100A sub panels, one of which has next to nothing in it currently.

I agree with many of the comments about "Do I really need this type of machine, just being a hobbyist", but I now have many machines that I never dreamed of owning 3 years ago, and use most of them frequently pursuing my hobby.

Again, thank you for all your comments and opinions.

In my opinion you're on the right track looking for a 3 phase machine to mate with a vfd. It'll probably be cheaper to buy and with a vfd you'll have reverse, infinite speed control and motor braking....all great features on a shaper.

A vfd will typically be one machine per vfd (more advanced scenarios are possible but they require additional considerations) and as long as the motor you're trying to run isn't 480v or 600v, hooking up to a vfd ought not be terribly complicated.

[Martin Wasner]

IMO shapers are intended for production shops.


Plural shapers, yes, that is a production orientated approach. I think the minimum to crank product is three.

A single shaper is meant for the guy not really trying to get anything done and doesn't need to.

[Mike Cutler]

Plural shapers, yes, that is a production orientated approach. I think the minimum to crank product is three.

A single shaper is meant for the guy not really trying to get anything done and doesn't need to.


Hmmmm,,,,, maybe I can work this around to my advantage. I can tell my wife, Martin says the reason I can't get anything done, is because I need a second shaper.:D
I don't think I can get three this way though.;)
It still amazed me to watch you make a door in 15 minutes.

[Van Huskey]

Hmmmm,,,,, maybe I can work this around to my advantage. I can tell my wife, Martin says the reason I can't get anything done, is because I need a second shaper.:D
I don't think I can get three this way though.;)
It still amazed me to watch you make a door in 15 minutes.

'Bought 16 minutes and 15 seconds. :D

I keep wondering how fast 10-20 of the same size door would take. I am betting he would average under 13 minutes per. My favorite part of the video is the ROS use, it is more like I use a ROS than the "proper" I have a week to finish the sanding on my honey-do table FWW magazine way.

I would like to have a second or third shaper but I really don't have the room and if push came to shove I would rather put all the money into one better shaper. Don't get me wrong I don't like the extra setup time but I do so little with each setup even 3 wouldn't keep me from setting up most times I use them. I do think hard every time I see a nice old iron shaper with no fence that sells for near nothing that I would love to have one to leave setup with a Byrd head for pattern cutting. It doesn't need to have any modern fancy controls and could be left with a completely open table and I wouldn't have to worry about taking the table off and putting it back on.

[Patrick Walsh]

I have the experience of a home home shop with one shaper and a workshop where I make a living with three.

We could use a fourth shaper at work to be perfect honest. The guys dont agree but the guys also don’t care of the boss is making money or not, they also have been in a shop their whole lives and are not really concerned with safety. We could use maybe even a fifth shaper to be perfectly honest. In a production environment and we are not a production environment with only two people building full time the ability to setup two profiles is of great value. As is having a dedicated panel raising setup and in our case a machine setup for lock miters as we miter wrap all of our face frames to end panels. Point is right now with three shapers we get by just fine but it does slow us down a bit at times and or requires planning of workflow.

My bench mate who has been building and is cheap cheap cheap cheap would be fine with a router table and hand feeding everything. You really don’t need much to cope and stick a cabinet door, a million ways to skin a cat. With that said the result of a shaper vrs router table and a power feeder can’t begin to be compared.

At home I have one shaper and even in a hobby environment it’s a royal pain in the rear end. Break this down to set that on and on and on. Thank god it has digital readout of the spindle somit sat least easy to get back exactly to where you were if you take good notes. High on my list of wants is a second shaper for the home shop.

15 minutes for a door is normal maybe even a bit long if your stock is pre dimensioned.

A power feeder is a must 100%. Not to say I do not hand feed when required as I do “small rails” but yes it’s always tentative and a bit scary. The alternative side is to jig something up that takes forever, normally double sided tape and thin rip of MDF.

Local to me at the moment there is a beautiful 1988 SCMI T110 with bolt on tenon table a power feeder and every single original accessory. The machine looks as new as the day it came off the factory floor. The seller is asking $4200, I bet you could get it for $3800. If I wan not holding out for a Martin with a sliding table and 10-13hp It would already be in my shop.

[Martin Wasner]

At one point I had one shaper. I hated making doors. Especially overlay doors with a raised panel. ugh. One setup for the panel raiser, one setup for sticking, one setup for coping, and another setup for the outside profile. ugh. You get pretty good at it after a while, and there's little tricks to make it faster, but hitting the button on a machine and it's ready to roll, is just too easy.

It wasn't that horrific when I had a bunch of doors to make, but when you had one, because you screwed up. ugh. vomit. barf. rage. I used to drink a lot more.

We have one shaper that has no dedicated use. It just gets setup for whatever so we don't have to tear down a specific setup.


I still have to crack the nut for changing heads for different profiles, and that's starting to tick me off. It's not worth it for me probably, but I'm seriously considering hsk spindles in the automatic coper I want. Swapping spindles will take all of one minute total for both heads with hsk. Tough to justify saving, (ball park guess and probably high), four hundred minutes a year for a $20,000 up charge. If I continue doing this another 15 years, thats 100 hours saved. That's $200/hr. Now, if I double or better my production, it might make more sense.

I used basically two shapers for a very long time. The coper was set up as a coper all the time, I never changed the setup. The other one did EVERYTHING else.


A big one is homogenizing your tooling as much as possible. Anything where you've got the same operation, but a different profile, you want the same major and minor diameters, and the same offsets. Crack the nut, swap heads, tighten up, and roll. No adjustments. I have to swap knives and backers to change panel raising profiles, that drives me nuts too, but for the four or five panel profiles I offer, I can't justify buying another four heads at $700 a pop. At least there's no adjustments to be made other than making sure the edge thickness is correct. Usually the height needs to be bumped a bit one way or another.

There's always room to make an operation better. Real production shops don't use a shaper for much. For us we use shapers mostly for making doors, but we're small time. There's a lot of operations that could be done more than twice as quickly in a moulder. Door sticking takes two passes in a shaper, plus surfacing prior to that point. Going through a moulder turns a 3 step process into a one step process. And the material moves through a moulder significantly faster than a shaper.

An automatic coper is faster than a shaper. Something like a big end matcher takes two people to keep up with, and they're almost idiot proof. The operator lays the part on a conveyor, the machine positions and machines the part. I'm not a big fan of shape and sand machines for panel raising, but I think they are the way to go with a outside profile.


I follow a bunch of shops on Instagram. It's amazing how ineffective some people operate equipment. A while back there was a dude posted a video of him making tongue and groove paneled on a shaper. It took him about 30 seconds to run one full length board. He had no infeed, and no outfeed, plus he had things stacked on the floor. So it took about 15 seconds for the material to pass through the shaper. The rest of the time he was either supporting the piece going in, or supporting it on the way out. Then setting it down, and picking up the next. I made the comment that if he had infeed and outfeed support he could double his productivity, and halve his operating cost. Run them back to back. He was a doing it for a living, but only actually working half the time, the rest of the time the machine was running empty, and the dust collector sucking up nothing. Every second that machine isn't doing it's job, you are consuming and not producing. Get some carts too, you've only got so many bend overs in you, don't waste them picking things up off the floor for no reason. I politely pointed out he could waste less, his response "I'm good" lol, okie dokie kiddo.

[Martin Wasner]

Local to me at the moment there is a beautiful 1988 SCMI T110 with bolt on tenon table a power feeder and every single original accessory. The machine looks as new as the day it came off the factory floor. The seller is asking $4200, I bet you could get it for $3800. If I wan not holding out for a Martin with a sliding table and 10-13hp It would already be in my shop.


True story, you can sell stuff again. When you leave it, it won't take half of your stuff. :D

[Darcy Warner]

Plural shapers, yes, that is a production orientated approach. I think the minimum to crank product is three.

A single shaper is meant for the guy not really trying to get anything done and doesn't need to.

If you have a moulder running, the number of shapers you really need drops by a couple. I still think every shaper should have a tilting spindle.

[Martin Wasner]

If you have a moulder running, the number of shapers you really need drops by a couple. I still think every shaper should have a tilting spindle.


Agreed. That's why I said in the previous post, real production shops don't have many shapers.


I need to figure out where the heck I'm going to put my moulder and get my dust collection sorted out to handle the chip load. Sitting in the corner doesn't do me much good.

[Mike Cutler]

'Bought 16 minutes and 15 seconds. :D

I keep wondering how fast 10-20 of the same size door would take. I am betting he would average under 13 minutes per. My favorite part of the video is the ROS use, it is more like I use a ROS than the "proper" I have a week to finish the sanding on my honey-do table FWW magazine way.

I would like to have a second or third shaper but I really don't have the room and if push came to shove I would rather put all the money into one better shaper. Don't get me wrong I don't like the extra setup time but I do so little with each setup even 3 wouldn't keep me from setting up most times I use them. I do think hard every time I see a nice old iron shaper with no fence that sells for near nothing that I would love to have one to leave setup with a Byrd head for pattern cutting. It doesn't need to have any modern fancy controls and could be left with a completely open table and I wouldn't have to worry about taking the table off and putting it back on.


Van
I feel the same way.
I made one "set" of cabinets about 15 years ago, and I have a set to make this spring for our kitchen. Total of about 14 doors. (I don't do doors on lowers.) These will be the last cabinets I'll probably ever make as a "set". Martin makes more doors in one day than I will in my life.
I still have vanity or two to do, and we're about ready to redo the upstairs bath, but that's small. We'll also be redoing all of the windows in the house, so that will take some time.( Maybe I should start looking for a used W&H moulder?) My wife is also talking having me make all new interior doors, so I don't know where that will lead???
They'll always be the odd," boat work" I seem to get caught up in, or someone wanting to recreate a 300 year old piece of trim, but that's just fun work. I don't have to make $$$$ doing it, and it helps me rationalize having all of this equipment. ;)

[David Kumm]

If space is an issue and you can only fit one shaper, the Felder F700, Minimax T55, or the new Robland shaper sold by Martin are a good compromise. Tilt spindle, sliding table, good fence, and enough size and build without being so large that the sliding table sits far away from the spindle. You will need a rpc as all with run three phase but those machines are versatile and changeover isn't too brutal.All will handle one pass profiling which is efficient but don't take up any more room than a PM 27 but are a huge step up. The used market runs 3-5K and lightly used machines pop up as commercial shops tend towards multiple heavier machines and hobby guys don't stress them. The SCM T110 is a nice size too but not tilt if I remember right. Dave

[Van Huskey]

Since we are going afield on the shaper question anyone have experience with the Cantek shapers? There is a practically new SS512TB near me. It has a tilting spindle, sliding table, 7.5hp and a finger fence similar to the Aigner.

[Martin Wasner]

Since we are going afield on the shaper question anyone have experience with the Cantek shapers? There is a practically new SS512TB near me. It has a tilting spindle, sliding table, 7.5hp and a finger fence similar to the Aigner.

I keep saying Cantek is a good value. The fit and finish is usually not great, but they seem to perform well and are over built from what I've experienced with other machines. I'd take a Cantek over many brands. I have zero direct experience with their shapers though.

[Darcy Warner]

I keep saying Cantek is a good value. The fit and finish is usually not great, but they seem to perform well and are over built from what I've experienced with other machines. I'd take a Cantek over many brands. I have zero direct experience with their shapers though.

I think they are pretty comparable to Northtech stuff.

Kinda introductory industrial, like the extreema stuff.
It's an odd segment in the marketplace for sure.

[Warren Lake]

Dave never seen a T110 or 120 or 130 with Tilt. 150 and 160 yes.

[Nick Lazz]

A shaper is probably the most versatile machine in the shop, along with the band saw.

I have a tilting spindle, sliding table shaper, it gets a lot of use in a hobby shop.

For tooling you'll need a carbide rebate head, an adjustable slotting cutter and a Euroblock 40 mm head that takes HSS knives. You should purchase MAN rated tooling which has a reduced risk of kickback incidents.

The cost of HSS knives and limiters for the 40mm head is about the same cost as a good router bit, and will produce superior results in solid wood.

A stock feeder should also be considered a necessity for safety and work quality...........Regards, Rod.

Rod, I would really like to hear your recommendations on the tooling you just described. Currently looking at Whitehill combi head for my PM shaper....but I need some more tooling advice. Not trying to hijack the thread, I am sure it will be helpful to the OP too.
Thanks!

[brent stanley]

Rod, I would really like to hear your recommendations on the tooling you just described. Currently looking at Whitehill combi head for my PM shaper....but I need some more tooling advice. Not trying to hijack the thread, I am sure it will be helpful to the OP too.
Thanks!

Hi Nick, With the combi head you'll get two of the above - a shear cut rebate block with scribes and a limiter head that can take different knives depending on the block you run.....for much less outlay than separate blocks with zero compromise in performance or practicality. If you're milling abrasive materials or manmade materials, Whitehill can tip knives in carbide for you if needed.

Adjustable groovers are fantastic but can be pricey and which size range(s) you get would depend on what you do but remember, knives to form any groove can be made for the Euroblock too though of course it won't be adjustable and the groove depth will be limited by the projection limitations of the knife stock. You might also want a panel raiser if you do that work.

What are the rpm options for your machine?

B

[ChrisA Edwards]

Rod, I would really like to hear your recommendations on the tooling you just described. Currently looking at Whitehill combi head for my PM shaper....but I need some more tooling advice. Not trying to hijack the thread, I am sure it will be helpful to the OP too.
Thanks!
Absolutely.........

My yearning to obtain a Shaper cooled off over the last couple of days. I did feel like I finally got to understand the 3 phase/VFD requirements opening up the possibility of more used commercial grade machine availability.

I also now realize, I would not buy a Shaper unless I could compliment it with a power feeder.

Next phase is to really understand the cutter heads available, etc.. This is completely new territory for me. I have a ShopFox moulding machine and have used it to make plantation shutter louvers successfully, so I'm familiar with interchangeable blades concept.

But at this point, my budget or in reality, the amount I was thinking of spending, appears to be about 50% below what is needed to obtain a setup that I think I would be comfortable/satisfied with.

So this leaves me in a bit of a dilemma, but I would still like to continue to absorb your knowledge and opinions.

[Jared Sankovich]

Rod, I would really like to hear your recommendations on the tooling you just described. Currently looking at Whitehill combi head for my PM shaper....but I need some more tooling advice. Not trying to hijack the thread, I am sure it will be helpful to the OP too.
Thanks!

This would cover most home shop needs, from furniture to cabinetry and millwork.

399784

[Jared Sankovich]

Absolutely.........

My yearning to obtain a Shaper cooled off over the last couple of days. I did feel like I finally got to understand the 3 phase/VFD requirements opening up the possibility of more used commercial grade machine availability.

I also now realize, I would not buy a Shaper unless I could compliment it with a power feeder.

Next phase is to really understand the cutter heads available, etc.. This is completely new territory for me. I have a ShopFox moulding machine and have used it to make plantation shutter louvers successfully, so I'm familiar with interchangeable blades concept.

But at this point, my budget or in reality, the amount I was thinking of spending, appears to be about 50% below what is needed to obtain a setup that I think I would be comfortable/satisfied with.

So this leaves me in a bit of a dilemma, but I would still like to continue to absorb your knowledge and opinions.

Regarding cost, the last two feeders I picked up were $50 and $400. The latter included a free 5hp sliding table shaper...

[Mike Cutler]

Jared

If those are your cutter heads, I'd ask how you like that Amana spiral jointing head. I've been looking at getting one. Some real world feedback would be appreciated.

[Jared Sankovich]

Jared

If those are your cutter heads, I'd ask how you like that Amana spiral jointing head. I've been looking at getting one. Some real world feedback would be appreciated.

It works great. Leaves a really nice finish, grain direction isn't big concern. Overall I'd give it 4 out of 4.

I just wish it came in a taller 100 to 125mm version

[Nick Lazz]

I have the 5HP Powermatic 27S ... I believe it is 7000 and 10000 rpm
I think the combi head is a definite must for me. Adjustable groovers I assume you are referring to the two piece heads with spacer.. I would be interested in those as well as a panel raiser.

[Nick Lazz]

Chris - check public auctions. I've used www.publicsurplus.com, there may be other options in your area. I bought my shaper from a school and won it in an auction. It was a few years old, but was never used. I purchased a powerfeed seperately.

Nick

[brent stanley]

I have the 5HP Powermatic 27S ... I believe it is 7000 and 10000 rpm
I think the combi head is a definite must for me. Adjustable groovers I assume you are referring to the two piece heads with spacer.. I would be interested in those as well as a panel raiser.

Hi Nick, most of the adjustable groovers are two-piece, but some are three and yes they use shims and spacers to fine tune the groove width. I have a wobble saw for thinner grooves as they are much cheaper but can still be MAN rated and perform just fine for most work, though I will be getting a three-piece adjustable groover before too long. They are a more refined tool.

Let me know if you have any questions about the combi heads. I have and use both almost every day. Jack Forsberg who is on SMC said to me the other day his Combi head hasn't been off his shaper in ages!

B

[Nick Lazz]

I have tons...just not sure what they are yet! :)

Here's one: If you were starting from scratch with my shaper, I assume you would get the 125mm combi head with 1-1/4" bore. What inserts / knives would you get for that head that are must haves?
Which adjustable groover would you have to have?

I'm just curious what you use the most or what you may have found was useful that may have surprised you...I also want recommendations.
Thanks!

[brent stanley]

I have tons...just not sure what they are yet! :)

Here's one: If you were starting from scratch with my shaper, I assume you would get the 125mm combi head with 1-1/4" bore. What inserts / knives would you get for that head that are must haves?
Which adjustable groover would you have to have?

I'm just curious what you use the most or what you may have found was useful that may have surprised you...I also want recommendations.
Thanks!

It's tough because the larger head is the most versatile and capable for sure but you'll have to ask around to see if your machine has the heft to run a 125x50mm steel block as I've never seen your machine in person before. The larger one will let you run thicker steel for more complex profiles but also being a larger diameter, some say will produce a better cut though that's not universally accepted.

The smaller one is great and you can run the very commonly available 40mm knives that are readily available from CMT, Dimar etc but also the 55mm knives that Whitehill sells which of course gives you more profile but significantly will often give you room for both cope and stick on one knife. The nice thing about Whitehill is for both options you can get the head with 5 sets of knives for a discount, but Whitehill lets YOU pick the knives instead of telling you what you want like a lot of companies do.

If you mate the combi with a matching bearing you have a great template cutter.

As for which knives to get with it......that's a tough one. I'd suggest a knife with 4 roundover radiuses (radii?), a glue joint cutter, a bull nose, one with a couple different beads and maybe one with t&g for mission doors but it'll depend on what you're going to get up to.

Cheers
Brent

[Jared Sankovich]

I have yet to find one profile I use more than others (short of specific moulding runs)
399801

[brent stanley]

I have yet to find one profile I use more than others (short of specific moulding runs)
399801

I know what you mean, it's hard to say. If I had to pick one it would be my knife with four different radii on it because it's sort of like four knives in one!

B

[Mark Bolton]

My personal experience has been that its bad to try to anticipate "the best" profiles. You may get some straight, chamfering, round over, coves, that can fit a few different options with height and cutter exposure but its just best to buy cutters as you specifically need them. Inevitably you will buy a knife that you think will be handy and youll have cash tied up in the drawer than never or rarely gets mounted. With shipping nowadays its nothing to have a new profile in the shop in a few days.

[Jared Sankovich]

I know what you mean, it's hard to say. If I had to pick one it would be my knife with four different radii on it because it's sort of like four knives in one!

B

Actually now that you mention that, I have a knife with 8, 10 and 12mm bull nose profiles. It gets used for dominos and quirk beads. Likely my most used profile.

[Van Huskey]

It works great. Leaves a really nice finish, grain direction isn't big concern. Overall I'd give it 4 out of 4.

I just wish it came in a taller 100 to 125mm version

Byrd has 4" versions and Amana makes that huge one over 7" tall.

RE the Combi head does it allow you to use the 40mm Euro block knives WITHOUT limiters? I have a bunch of these.

[Jared Sankovich]

Byrd has 4" versions and Amana makes that huge one over 7" tall.

RE the Combi head does it allow you to use the 40mm Euro block knives WITHOUT limiters? I have a bunch of these.

Yeah the 4" diameter are plentiful, I just wish the amana 68mm version was a bit taller.

The whitehill head needs blanks/spacers to work if you don't run the limiters.

[Nick Lazz]

It's tough because the larger head is the most versatile and capable for sure but you'll have to ask around to see if your machine has the heft to run a 125x50mm steel block as I've never seen your machine in person before. The larger one will let you run thicker steel for more complex profiles but also being a larger diameter, some say will produce a better cut though that's not universally accepted.

The smaller one is great and you can run the very commonly available 40mm knives that are readily available from CMT, Dimar etc but also the 55mm knives that Whitehill sells which of course gives you more profile but significantly will often give you room for both cope and stick on one knife. The nice thing about Whitehill is for both options you can get the head with 5 sets of knives for a discount, but Whitehill lets YOU pick the knives instead of telling you what you want like a lot of companies do.

If you mate the combi with a matching bearing you have a great template cutter.

As for which knives to get with it......that's a tough one. I'd suggest a knife with 4 roundover radiuses (radii?), a glue joint cutter, a bull nose, one with a couple different beads and maybe one with t&g for mission doors but it'll depend on what you're going to get up to.

Cheers
Brent

My machine is 5hp....anyone know?

I assume it would.

[brent stanley]

Byrd has 4" versions and Amana makes that huge one over 7" tall.

RE the Combi head does it allow you to use the 40mm Euro block knives WITHOUT limiters? I have a bunch of these.

Hi Van, yes, they come with slugs you can insert in the limiter slots if you want. Many of the safety aspects of the head will be null if you do that of course so the manufacturer wouldn't officially recommend it.....

[Van Huskey]

Yeah the 4" diameter are plentiful, I just wish the amana 68mm version was a bit taller.

The whitehill head needs blanks/spacers to work if you don't run the limiters.

I should have been more clear, Byrd makes a 3" OD version with a 4" cut so it is a little larger diameter but not much.

Looking at the Combi head it appeared that you would have to run something on the other side of the cutters just wasn't sure if they had spacers for it or if it did indeed require an actual limiter. Thanks!

[Van Huskey]

My machine is 5hp....anyone know?

I assume it would.

I wouldn't personally run a 125mm steel head on a PM27 (in the big picture it is a fairly light shaper) I would get the 96mm version. Maybe some people with more personal experience with the PM27 can chime in.

[Van Huskey]

Hi Van, yes, they come with slugs you can insert in the limiter slots if you want. Many of the safety aspects of the head will be null if you do that of course so the manufacturer wouldn't officially recommend it.....

Yes, it would no longer be MAN rated but wouldn't be different from my CMT blocks which I certainly don't hand feed.

[Jared Sankovich]

I have the 5HP Powermatic 27S ... I believe it is 7000 and 10000 rpm
I think the combi head is a definite must for me. Adjustable groovers I assume you are referring to the two piece heads with spacer.. I would be interested in those as well as a panel raiser.

IIRC those are only slightly heavier built than the delta HD. I would stick to 100mm or smaller heads. The speeds indicate as much.

[David Kumm]

The PM 27 is kind of a 3 hp build with a larger motor. I'd not run a head of that size. Look at the spindles of the PM vs those of a SCM T130 for instance. Assume the quill and bearings that support the spindle are equally disproportionate. Dave

[Darcy Warner]

The PM 27 is kind of a 3 hp build with a larger motor. I'd not run a head of that size. Look at the spindles of the PM vs those of a SCM T130 for instance. Assume the quill and bearings that support the spindle are equally disproportionate. Dave

I got real good at changing those cheap bearings in my 27s once every 6 months. It's not even suited for 1/8" round overs. So glad when that thing left.

[Patrick Walsh]

Are they really that bad?


I got real good at changing those cheap bearings in my 27s once every 6 months. It's not even suited for 1/8" round overs. So glad when that thing left.

[Martin Wasner]

I wouldn't personally run a 125mm steel head on a PM27 (in the big picture it is a fairly light shaper) I would get the 96mm version. Maybe some people with more personal experience with the PM27 can chime in.

I agree.

Extra characters

[Martin Wasner]

Are they really that bad?

Picture a router with a cast iron base.

[Nick Lazz]

I wouldn't personally run a 125mm steel head on a PM27 (in the big picture it is a fairly light shaper) I would get the 96mm version. Maybe some people with more personal experience with the PM27 can chime in.
Ok, I’ll go with the 96mm.

A little surprised at the negative comments on the Powermatic 27 Super... all USA made including a Baldor motor. I would assume in some cases they may have been over used for what they were intended and they were purchased used but I’m scratching my head a little. It’s probably more than I’ll need, honestly.

I appreciate the feedback.

[brent stanley]

Ok, I’ll go with the 96mm.

A little surprised at the negative comments on the Powermatic 27 Super... all USA made including a Baldor motor. I would assume in some cases they may have been over used for what they were intended and they were purchased used but I’m scratching my head a little. It’s probably more than I’ll need, honestly.

I appreciate the feedback.

I expect you'll make out just fine if you have the discipline to not push it too hard and take two or more passes to complete an operation if necessary.

B

[Mike Cutler]

Ok, I’ll go with the 96mm.

A little surprised at the negative comments on the Powermatic 27 Super... all USA made including a Baldor motor. I would assume in some cases they may have been over used for what they were intended and they were purchased used but I’m scratching my head a little. It’s probably more than I’ll need, honestly.

I appreciate the feedback.

No, the PM 27 is not a bad shaper at all, and for it's intended purpose, it is a fine machine.
In the home shop it is more machine than most users will ever need. A production environment would be different.
I have a 70s vintage, Delta 43-375. It has a one pieces, 1" spindle and bearing assembly, on it right now. It's more than enough for my needs. I do have some cutter heads that are bigger than 100mm. Two panel raisers and a table edge are about 115-120mm, the Lock Miter is 115mm. The straight cutters are all just over 100mm, and everything else is <100mm. The tallest profile for my larger cutters is just over 1".
While there is still a lot of energy at the outer circumference of these larger cutters, the rotational mass is not that great, due to the low profile. I think If I were trying to spin 115mm steel cutters that were 2" and greater in height, that would be to much rotational mass for the cartridge bearings.
Here is an article on Delta Shapers, but there are also references to PM's. Pay close attention to the sections concerning spindle cartridges and bearings.;)

https://www.ae-tool.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/delta-shapers.pdf

[Van Huskey]

Ok, I’ll go with the 96mm.

A little surprised at the negative comments on the Powermatic 27 Super... all USA made including a Baldor motor. I would assume in some cases they may have been over used for what they were intended and they were purchased used but I’m scratching my head a little. It’s probably more than I’ll need, honestly.

I appreciate the feedback.

The PM27 is not a bad shaper it is simply a light duty shaper. Nobody (that knows vehicles) will call a Toyota Tacoma a bad truck but if you have to haul a 15,000-pound trailer over a 10% grade mountain pass every day it is simply too lightly built for the job. Just because it has a ball on the hitch that fits the trailer doesn't mean it is a good idea.

These Euro blocks are basically a solid chunk of steel and as thick on the outside edges as in the middle compared to a panel raising cutter that gets thinner toward the outside edge. It simply puts a lot of stress on the machine.

To visual make the point here is a set of pictures the first is showing a PM27 bearing INSIDE a Martin shaper bearing and their quills beside each other in the second picture.

399907399908

[Joe Calhoon]

The little Powermatic’s and Delta’s are fine with the small cutters that were designed for them. The minute you start running larger cutters they will eat bearings quickly.

[Jared Sankovich]

I have a 68mm head for my delta hd. I think a 88mm aluminum head would be the max I would consider on the delta or powermatic. The quils are just tiny (relatively speaking) in those machines.

The 120mm amana head I have weighs 7lbs, the 68mm aluminum is .6lbs

[Nick Lazz]

Good stuff Mike.

Based on that and Van H's comparison....Maybe I'll have to look for an aluminum block instead. Sounds like even the 96mm steel version would be pushing it. What I'm finding is, I would probably need to buy something like this https://www.axminster.co.uk/whitehill-universal-moulding-block-ax19801 or just a limiter head (from Whitehill or similar) and a separtate rebate head as there isn't a combi version in aluminum. Bummer. I looked at Amana but it seems their euro style blocks do not have limiters that I have found and I would like to have them.

[brent stanley]

I just weighed my small combi head with blanks installed and it's 3.75 LBS. My Aluminum 55mm head is just shy of 2 pounds.

[Mike Cutler]

VanHuskey
" Nobody (that knows vehicles) will call a Toyota Tacoma a bad truck but if you have to haul a 15,000-pound trailer over a 10% grade mountain pass every day it is simply too lightly built for the job. Just because it has a ball on the hitch that fits the trailer doesn't mean it is a good idea."


From '86 to 2013 a Toyota Truck was my daily driver. Put over 700K miles on three of them.
I can tell you with absolute confidence that a 2300lb. Brenderup Baron T/C, two horse, bumper pull trailer, with just one 1100 lb. horse inside, is way too much for one to handle.
I loved my 'Toy trucks, but they were awful to haul with. Even with an aftermarket AirLift system installed.

Nick
I think CMT has aluminum insert heads with limiters. I think.

[Mike Kees]

Van ,Andrew Coholic that used to post here has a Cantek shaper in his production shop.You could probably PM him for info.

[Van Huskey]

Van,Andrew Coholic that used to post here has a Cantek shaper in his production shop.You could probably PM him for info.

Thanks, I was trying to remember his name but couldn't. I remember seeing it in one of his videos. Turns out after talking to the seller I am 3rd in line to look at it so if it is a good deal someone will likely buy it before me. Probably for the best, if I am going to spend real money on a shaper upgrade I think I should really wait for an actual European one.

[Mark Bolton]

It's very easy for people who upgrade by necessity or obsession to pooh pooh the capacity of lesser equipment. I always find it kind of.. well, a bit pathetic.

We have two import shapers in the shop that swing 150mm tall dual hook steel corrugated heads with knives ground at the limits of projection. They dont run 8 hours a day, but they make money on a regular basis.

Never owned a 27 but I can only imagine anyone who becomes proficient at swapping their bearings came to the realization that they were way over expectations of their investment about a year too late.

We don't run our shapers as if they were a 2 ton molder disguised in a suitcase sized package.

Dumb is dumb. Smart is smart. Wever yet to swap a set if bearings. Throughput is not doubt part of that but being an idiot and pushing a small machine for 8x it's worth.. is well.. being an idiot.

[Darcy Warner]

It's very easy for people who upgrade by necessity or obsession to pooh pooh the capacity of lesser equipment. I always find it kind of.. well, a bit pathetic.

We have two import shapers in the shop that swing 150mm tall dual hook steel corrugated heads with knives ground at the limits of projection. They dont run 8 hours a day, but they make money on a regular basis.

Never owned a 27 but I can only imagine anyone who becomes proficient at swapping their bearings came to the realization that they were way over expectations of their investment about a year too late.

We don't run our shapers as if they were a 2 ton molder disguised in a suitcase sized package.

Dumb is dumb. Smart is smart. Wever yet to swap a set if bearings. Throughput is not doubt part of that but being an idiot and pushing a small machine for 8x it's worth.. is well.. being an idiot.

Edge work will kill a PM27. Edge work.
I wouldn't trust anything more than a round over in those things.

I invested 400 bucks in both the PM27s I had. Still about 300 too much.

I run small runs on a shaper, more than 150 feet and I set up my 7 head moulder, more than 1000 feet and the big Hydromat gets set up.

I have ran a Yates N4 for hours a day with way too big a cutter on it and it never complained, same with the invictas, old SCMs, Bauerle, wadkin, gomad, etc.

Personally, I don't even really care for the steel cabinet scmis and the like.

Idiots, huh?

[Mark Bolton]

Again, like I said, necessity or obsession. Pick your own column. We run shapers for what they excell at and no more. Never destroyed one at any level. Never got routinely expeditious at swapping bearings, and never went to the lunacy of a seven head in any remote relationship to an operation we remotely contemplated accomplishing with a shaper. Your issues with shapers seem clear if you had to resort to a seven head molder to accomplish what you were trying to do with a shaper in the first place .. again. Hence my point of trying to accomplish the impossible with the shaper to start then blaming the shaper when you should be using the molder (or outsourcing) to begin with.

Reminds me of my guys blaming the pencil when they mark the tape wrong. Guess I should buy them a seven head pencil lol.

[Chris Hachet]

I have an early 1941 vintage Delta HD shaper with a 2 hp bullet motor. It is useful and I picked it up in good shape cheaply. But it is a light duty shaper.

I do find it useful...but will upgrade at some point.

I do find even a small shaper to be of use.

[Darcy Warner]

Again, like I said, necessity or obsession. Pick your own column. We run shapers for what they excell at and no more. Never destroyed one at any level. Never got routinely expeditious at swapping bearings, and never went to the lunacy of a seven head in any remote relationship to an operation we remotely contemplated accomplishing with a shaper. Your issues with shapers seem clear if you had to resort to a seven head molder to accomplish what you were trying to do with a shaper in the first place .. again. Hence my point of trying to accomplish the impossible with the shaper to start then blaming the shaper when you should be using the molder (or outsourcing) to begin with.

Reminds me of my guys blaming the pencil when they mark the tape wrong. Guess I should buy them a seven head pencil lol.

Shapers are 150 foot an under machines. Face mouldings have no business being run on a shaper. I can set up the sash sticker real quick, the 7 head wadkin fairly quick and the big hydromat takes a while when all the horizontal heads have outboard bearings.

Time is money. That is why shapers are short run machines. You have to handle a board too many times before it goes through a shaper.

I just need to bust blanks for a moulder, it does all the flattening and straightening and profiling. Lumber in one end, money out the other.

I still stand by my statement that pm27s are crap.

[Martin Wasner]

welp, you've got two kinds of people here. Those that try to make money with their tools, and those that don't try.

I have two 27's. I've said this a half dozen times. When I bought them, I never thought I would need anything more than what they had to offer. I was incorrect.
The tolerances just aren't there. Lightly built and under powered. It doesn't take many hours or much abuse and they start getting sloppy. One of mine has seen really light use coping and I haven't had to pull the spindle. The other one has been out a few times. Panel raising beats those things to death when you're doing full cuts.

For a hobbyist they're fine, and when I didn't know any better, they were fine. I know better nowadays though. That was a tough learning curve.
I bought a used SAC shaper for $1200 on an auction, (on a recommendation from Peter Quinn on here actually), within a few seconds of it running, just a bare spindle, I knew I wasn't doing the best I could before and the standards had changed. That set me off getting a nice scm shaper, then upgrading all of my heads, then getting another SAC, and now another. That first quality shaper sent my pounding down the path to upgrade my tooling across the board to make things more profitable. Fighting subpar results and inadequate setups is no way to make money. That genesis happened about four years ago. I went from leasing space with not much equipment to owing very little on a building I own three times the size of my leased space in a short amount of time. I'm already thinking about an addition. I couldn't have done it without the equipment, and I owe it to Peter and that SAC.

If I'm fanatical about it, its because I look back at the time I wasted fighting. The money I threw away reworking things infuriates me. I had a lot of PM stuff. A couple of saws, a jointer, planer, shapers, dust collectors. The only thing I've got left from that is one of the saws, which it's a pretty nice 66, a 6" jointer that fills a roll just fine, and those two 27 shapers that I can not wait to send their rattling carcasses down the road. As soon as I pull them from service, they're getting bearings, a clean up, and getting tossed on Craigslist where they'll get snatched up in a couple of days.


Realizing what I didn't know was humbling and a killer for me.

[Van Huskey]

The last twist of this thread has me a little confused, though admittedly not a state of mind I am completely unaccustomed to.

While I understand Mark's position and especially when considered in terms of the hobbyist it makes sense. Honestly, I am not sure how much of the thread his comments were meant to cover, I took it as the last part regarding the PM27. I see that as simply a question of what tooling is appropriate for the machine. The lure of a Combi-head for a hobbyist is that it becomes one if not the main piece of tooling you have for your shaper, it will spend a lot of time on the spindle. From my point of view the 125mm steel head is larger than someone should run on a PM27 or similar shapers and the 96mm head does MOST of the things the larger one does and actually has an advantage if you want to run 40mm inserts that can be commonly found in the US. If Mark thinks the 125mm head makes more sense to buy then express the opinion, it is certainly worth a lot more than mine on this subject.

I admit that the "upselling" (that I am fully guilty of) that occurs on most every hobby forum in all of the internet can be obnoxious at times. I also admit that the dismissal of tools/machines is also not a good look. We should all try to be "better". Hopefully this thread won't have Nick looking at his PM differently as it will do anything a hobbyist like myself will likely ever ask of it. It doesn't, however, change the fact that there are legitimate tooling issues that should be addressed. Just because it fits on your machines spindle and is smaller than the table opening with all the rings removed doesn't mean it is the best choice just like a 1 1/4" x .042" Lenox Trimaster may not be appropriate just because you can shoehorn it onto the wheels of a specific bandsaw.

[ChrisA Edwards]

Van, thank you for that post. I started this thread, excited that I may purchase a Shaper in the near future, but the last couple of pages leave me with the impression, that if I don't buy a commercial grade unit, with a new msrp north of $6K, I'm basically wasting my money.

I'm not in the income bracket where such tool is viable or necessary for my hobby, so this has been a good enlightening experience and I'll save money for wood and projects and keep using my router table.

[David Kumm]

Keep watching the ads. Martin found his used SAC and it only needed a stop button. Deals come up. I started with a little 3 hp SECO. It was a decent machine to learn on and decide what I really needed. I found a SCM T130 with a sliding table that had never been turned on for $3750 and then a Martin T21. The little SECO is crap in comparison but if you find something for less than 1000, you can get enough use to wait until the real deal shows up. Dave

[Mike Cutler]

Van, thank you for that post. I started this thread, excited that I may purchase a Shaper in the near future, but the last couple of pages leave me with the impression, that if I don't buy a commercial grade unit, with a new msrp north of $6K, I'm basically wasting my money.

I'm not in the income bracket where such tool is viable or necessary for my hobby, so this has been a good enlightening experience and I'll save money for wood and projects and keep using my router table.

Chris
I will tell you for a damn certain fact that you do not have to spend that kind of money. Take away my drum sander and I barely have $6k wrapped up in all my stationary machines.
I've worked with, and known, some extremely talented cabinet makers that make nothing but high end cabinets for homes, boats, and airplanes. You want to see a kitchen remodel go close to seven figures, before appliances, these guys are the folks that get that work. They have basic machines. Maybe two or three of them that they never change and are maintained by a retired machinist out of General Dynamics, but their "game" is not to process linear feet per minute. Hell, I know a custom framer, that has 4, old DeWalt 705's, and he's been in the custom picture framing business for decades. This guy's work is hanging in museums.
I'll make an inflammatory statement here;
If a person cannot produce a quality cabinet set, or do good work, with a properly functioning, 3-5HP, Powermatic, Jet, Grizzly, Delta, Woodtek, etc shaper. They won't make any better product with a more expensive machine. They'll make the same quality faster, or they'll become more efficient at making an inferior product. There are 100's and 100's of custom cabinet shops all over the US that have what would be termed "light duty' shapers,and these folks are doing just fine with them!
It doesn't take expensive machines, any machine, to do superior work. It takes attention to detail, patience, willingness to learn, and developed skill. A machine is only a reflection of the user.

Buy a shaper, new or used, get a few cutters, maybe a basic shaker style cabinet set, that are within the machine's ability to use, and have at it.
The unfortunate part is that you may have to "teach yourself". But there is a lot of good info access available now to a person.

[Jared Sankovich]

Van, thank you for that post. I started this thread, excited that I may purchase a Shaper in the near future, but the last couple of pages leave me with the impression, that if I don't buy a commercial grade unit, with a new msrp north of $6K, I'm basically wasting my money.

I'm not in the income bracket where such tool is viable or necessary for my hobby, so this has been a good enlightening experience and I'll save money for wood and projects and keep using my router table.

I'll say used is the way to go. There are a lot of quality shapers that pop up for short money from shops going out of business, retiring, up sizing or downsizing. The best thing about buying used (other then price) is they often come with a feeder attached.

I've spent $1850 (total) on three shapers (2 sliding table one with tilt) and three feeders, and passed on a lot more just due to space constraints. My point is you don't have to spend close to $6000 to get a shaper with a $6000msrp

[Darcy Warner]

Chris
I will tell you for a damn certain fact that you do not have to spend that kind of money. Take away my drum sander and I barely have $6k wrapped up in all my stationary machines.
I've worked with, and known, some extremely talented cabinet makers that make nothing but high end cabinets for homes, boats, and airplanes. You want to see a kitchen remodel go close to seven figures, before appliances, these guys are the folks that get that work. They have basic machines. Maybe two or three of them that they never change and are maintained by a retired machinist out of General Dynamics, but their "game" is not to process linear feet per minute. Hell, I know a custom framer, that has 4, old DeWalt 705's, and he's been in the custom picture framing business for decades. This guy's work is hanging in museums.
I'll make an inflammatory statement here;
If a person cannot produce a quality cabinet set, or do good work, with a properly functioning, 3-5HP, Powermatic, Jet, Grizzly, Delta, Woodtek, etc shaper. They won't make any better product with a more expensive machine. They'll make the same quality faster, or they'll become more efficient at making an inferior product. There are 100's and 100's of custom cabinet shops all over the US that have what would be termed "light duty' shapers,and these folks are doing just fine with them!
It doesn't take expensive machines, any machine, to do superior work. It takes attention to detail, patience, willingness to learn, and developed skill. A machine is only a reflection of the user.

Buy a shaper, new or used, get a few cutters, maybe a basic shaker style cabinet set, that are within the machine's ability to use, and have at it.
The unfortunate part is that you may have to "teach yourself". But there is a lot of good info access available now to a person.

No one said you couldn't, but it comes down to the fact that even a pm27 and similar style machines have very small spindles, small cheap bearings and really are no good for heavy cuts or hours of use a day. It's not a matter of opinion, it's a matter of experience using them.

It's also a matter of ease, speed and cut quality.

[Patrick Walsh]

I’ll sell you my F700Z sliding table single phase unit with 30mm, 1.25 spindle, variable speed and every accessory sold for it except tenon table and hood for $4K.

It’s plenty good for everything but really really heavy heads. Even then short runs are fine within reason. It seen very light use for its age.

You gotta come get it though :)

[Mike Cutler]

No one said you couldn't, but it comes down to the fact that even a pm27 and similar style machines have very small spindles, small cheap bearings and really are no good for heavy cuts or hours of use a day. It's not a matter of opinion, it's a matter of experience using them.

It's also a matter of ease, speed and cut quality.

Darcy
No debates there. My only point, though long winded, was that Chris could certainly be successful with a "lighter duty machine" as long as he stayed within the capabilities of that machine.
To raise a panel may take two passes, followed by a light climb cut to achieve a quality surface that a larger, more powerful machine could achieve in a single pass. Interior door cutter sets, even if they're < 100mm, are still going to take two passes.An inch and quarter, or inch and a half, of material be removed at one time is a lot of lbs. force pressure on that spindle cartridge, even it's just pine, or poplar.
A lot also has to do with species of wood. Set up a cutter for walnut and then try to pass jatoba, doubling hardness, without changing anything, and that machine is going to let you know about it fast. BTDT, A single pass for walnut will probably take at least two for jatoba.

It's all good discussion. I know that I learn a lot from threads like this.

[Martin Wasner]

Martin found his used SAC and it only needed a stop button.


Close. The e-stop had to be pulled out... Slightly easier, but not by much. Darcy is in awe of my electrical skills, rightfully so.

$400 for a shaper that would probably be north of $10k to replace new. I only wish it had the dial, but not a big deal. Use it as a set and forget machine.

https://sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=399980&d=1546372800


https://sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=399979&d=1546372800


https://sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=399981&d=1546372933


https://sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=399982&d=1546372933


https://sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=399983&d=1546373032


Are you going to find a deal like that every day? NOPE. Once in a while, yep. Gotta be ready to snatch it up when they pop up. I've got a lot of equipment, most of it pretty nice, very little of it was purchased new by me.
I almost feel guilty, but it was listed as non-functioning and I would've paid $400 for just the spindle, never mind the other parts I could use to keep the others running. The only ones worse than the Italians with electricity are the english and cars.


Somebody please fix whatever is going on with this forum that it spins pictures. That is seriously tiresome.

[Darcy Warner]

I may have a dial that fits in the handwheel. Just some janky magnetic type thing. Upon further investigation, maybe yours was set up different.

[Jared Sankovich]

Close. The e-stop had to be pulled out... Slightly easier, but not by much. Darcy is in awe of my electrical skills, rightfully so.

$400 for a shaper that would probably be north of $10k to replace new. I only wish it had the dial, but not a big deal. Use it as a


Are you going to find a deal like that every day? NOPE. Once in a while, yep. Gotta be ready to snatch it up when they pop up. I've got a lot of equipment, most of it pretty nice, very little of it was purchased new by me.
I almost feel guilty, but it was listed as non-functioning and I would've paid $400 for just the spindle, never mind the other parts I could use to keep the others running. The only ones worse than the Italians with electricity are the english and cars.


Somebody please fix whatever is going on with this forum that it spins pictures. That is seriously tiresome.


Your $400 deal beat my $400 deal from a few months ago. This bridgewood 511 slider needed spindle bearings.
399984
399985

[Martin Wasner]

I may have a dial that fits in the handwheel. Just some janky magnetic type thing. Upon further investigation, maybe yours was set up different.

Meh, not necessary. I can always stick a digital one on underneath too and put the display on top

[Darcy Warner]

Meh, not necessary. I can always stick a digital one on underneath too and put the display on top

It's an SAC one, but they were just janky magnetic things.

[Martin Wasner]

It's an SAC one, but they were just janky magnetic things.

My other two have a dial and counter. Pretty sure they're cable driven, but I don't know for certain.

[Van Huskey]

I’ll sell you my F700Z sliding table single phase unit with 30mm, 1.25 spindle, variable speed and every accessory sold for it except tenon table and hood for $4K.



If only you weren't 1600 miles from the shop I want a bigger shaper for I would be PMng you!. I have kinda settled on the F700Z as being the one I will buy if I get so impatient that I buy new. Near 10 grand is a lot of juice for a new one though, it is helping my patience.

[Darcy Warner]

My other two have a dial and counter. Pretty sure they're cable driven, but I don't know for certain.

Now I am going to have to look at my old pictures.

[Darcy Warner]

My other two have a dial and counter. Pretty sure they're cable driven, but I don't know for certain.

Ok, I forgot that yours has the spindle stuck at 90. Mine was a tilt, as all shapers should be. The dial I have was for the tilt and it was kinda lame. The other handle had the gauge and counter. I think it ran off something behind the handwheel. At one point I found a manual online for these.

I really need to put my SAC planer outfeed rollers back in. Only been sitting for a year. Lol

[Patrick McCarthy]

Gentlemen, your advice would be appreciated, especially as i don’t want to hurt myself or endanger anyone else. Some of the comments above make me question if the tooling below is too big or heavy. I tried to finds spec comparisons for the 2700 vs 27 but i am assuming there is some relation?? Thus far i have only used the cutters for one bathroom (my home) in walnut. Planning on doing our kitchen in maple. Am i courting disaster, or is it another situation where i have misunderstood or over interpreted some of the comments above?

I am a weekend warrior, I have a PM2700 shaper and, following the “cry once” theory, got a lot of good tooling. I got the Garniga kitchen set which has 3 discs - 2 of which are 160x 20x 31.75. I also got the Garniga Panel raiser which is 190 x 45 x 31.75.

I have several Zuani slot cutters which are 160 x . .. . X 31.75.

I also have a Klein insert head which is 131 x 90 x 31.75

Thank you in advance, Patrick

[David Kumm]

You certainly bought higher end tooling than shaper but I don't think you are in danger. Do you have a feeder for it? The 2700 is a made in Taiwan version of the old 27. You want a good jig for the copes and probably will need to run some multiple passes but I would not worry that you will be hurt. The bearings will fail more quickly but I bet you will get several kitchens before that happens. Have you checked runout? If that is good- less than .002 at top of spindle, you should get good quality cuts if you don't abuse the machine. Dave

[Patrick McCarthy]

Dave, thank you. Yes, i got the PM 4 wheel power feeder. Several passes are fine,especially if that saves the bearings.

If i had to do it over again, i would have taken Joe Calhoun’s class first and then gotten a shaper . . . . Rather than bassackwards like i did. That said, if i tripped across a single phase heavy duty shaper i might be tempted to replace it. I have tried to understand all the postings about vfd’s and rpc’s For a 3 phase . . . But electricity remains a mystery to me.

[David Kumm]

Time spent understanding RPC, Phase Perfect, or VFD is well spent. Rpc can be found cheap. Three phase is not a big deal to figure out and opens up a world of machinery that pays quickly for the RPC or VFD. Dave

[Joe Calhoon]

Patrick,
the PM 2700 looks a lot heavier than the delta’s and Powermatic’s I had way back. I built a lot of cabinet doors on those machines with no issues on the bearings. It’s when we started building house doors and using larger braised tooling that the bearings went fast.
You should be fine and as Dave mentions for home use you will not be doing heavy production.

[Van Huskey]

I also have a Klein insert head which is 131 x 90 x 31.75



Do you have a link to this? Never heard of Klein shaper tooling. Is it steel or aluminum? It is the only one that strikes me as a massive chunk of metal.

[Patrick McCarthy]

Van, i abbreviated a bit. The case says FreseKlein, and the website seems to be www.sistemiklein.com but it is in Pesaro, Italy . I bought it thru Greg at Rangate

[Patrick McCarthy]

DAve, Joe and Van,
thank you and Happy New Year

[Rod Sheridan]

Van, thank you for that post. I started this thread, excited that I may purchase a Shaper in the near future, but the last couple of pages leave me with the impression, that if I don't buy a commercial grade unit, with a new msrp north of $6K, I'm basically wasting my money.

I'm not in the income bracket where such tool is viable or necessary for my hobby, so this has been a good enlightening experience and I'll save money for wood and projects and keep using my router table.

Hi, used machines come up all the time and are worth waiting for. Going from a router table to a shaper will be a revelation for you.

Don't get discouraged, a shaper is worth investing in for a hobby user..............regards, Rod.

[brent stanley]

Patrick,
the PM 2700 looks a lot heavier than the delta’s and Powermatic’s I had way back. I built a lot of cabinet doors on those machines with no issues on the bearings. It’s when we started building house doors and using larger braised tooling that the bearings went fast.
You should be fine and as Dave mentions for home use you will not be doing heavy production.

I looked it up and it appears the insides match the outsides in this case. The 2700 uses two 6008 bearings whereas the 27 uses 6205s. That's quite a difference.

B

[brent stanley]

Van, i abbreviated a bit. The case says FreseKlein, and the website seems to be www.sistemiklein.com (http://www.sistemiklein.com) but it is in Pesaro, Italy . I bought it thru Greg at Rangate

That makes sense, much of the Rangate tooling is made in Italy by another company.

[David Kumm]

Load capacity of 6008 bearings are about 20-30% higher than 6205. I believe Felder uses 6009 in their 700 spindle cartridges. Dave

[Rod Sheridan]

Rod, I would really like to hear your recommendations on the tooling you just described. Currently looking at Whitehill combi head for my PM shaper....but I need some more tooling advice. Not trying to hijack the thread, I am sure it will be helpful to the OP too.
Thanks!

Happy New year Nick.

The first thing to do is to check the spindle RPM of your shaper to determine what tooling diameters you can run. Tooling speeds are in the range of 40 to 75 metres per second.

Below 40 the risk of kickback rises and above 75 tooling may fail from excessive speed, obviously the information supplied by the tooling manufacturer supercedes these guidelines.

Once you've determined what your minimum and maximum tooling diameters are for each speed you can start shopping for tooling.

400058

Brent has recommended a combination carbide rebate head and HSS knifeholder, it's a cost effective method of obtaining both tool heads in one package, if you're happy with removing the HSS knives and limiters when you want to use the rebate function.

I have a 125mm diameter X 50mm high carbide rebate head which I use for rebates, and pattern copying with a bearing. This is a frequently used head in a hobby shop.
400052

I also use a 40mm "Euro Block" for profiling solid wood. The knives and limiters are standard and are available from many sources, a pair of knives and limiters is under $50 and will produce more work with a higher finish quality than a router bit.

400053

The last item that will get you started is an adjustable groover for cutting grooves and slots. I have 2 types, a stacked dado ( I share it with my saw as it's a 30mm bore) and I have a 2 part adjustable groover that I use for grooving and cutting both sides of a tenon in one pass.

400055400056

The above tooling is available from many vendors in your area.............Regards, Rod.

[brent stanley]

Load capacity of 6008 bearings are about 20-30% higher than 6205. I believe Felder uses 6009 in their 700 spindle cartridges. Dave

The 6008 bearings in that 5hp machine are 40x68x15 roughly, and I have a 2hp Wadkin shaper with roughly 38x82.6x19 bearings. Goes to show you can't always go by HP eh?

B

[David Kumm]

I don't know what bearings the Wadkin runs ( looks to be imperial ) but it goes to my point that bearings have been lightened up over the years. It is generally the depth or thickness that determines the load capacity due to the diameter of the balls. The Wadkin bearings probably have close to double the load capacity of the PM. Dave

[brent stanley]

I don't know what bearings the Wadkin runs ( looks to be imperial ) but it goes to my point that bearings have been lightened up over the years. It is generally the depth or thickness that determines the load capacity due to the diameter of the balls. The Wadkin bearings probably have close to double the load capacity of the PM. Dave

Hoffmann bearing, L13 V3. Really a Sagar machine from the 1950s. Wonderful small shaper.

[David Kumm]

Brent, very close to a 6208 in speed limits and capacities. The real deal for a machine that size. Sagar made wonderful machines. Dave

[lowell holmes]

https://www.harborfreight.com/1-horsepower-wood-shaper-95668.html

Check it out.

[brent stanley]

Brent, very close to a 6208 in speed limits and capacities. The real deal for a machine that size. Sagar made wonderful machines. Dave


On this and other forums I see a lot of people asking about how large/heavy a cutter they can run on their particular shaper and it's really hard to offer advice if you don't know the machine. I understand very well that there are many more variables at play than bearing size/load rating but I can't help but think that with a bunch of assumptions we can at least create some general rules of thumb to use as a starting point for people. Too often people use HP as a gauge but we know that's not advisable, and we also know that manuals are often totally inadequate in this regard. Too many variables to even consider creating an ideal circumstances "bearing load rating to cutter mass/diameter" correlation? The engineering calculations would be easy for ideal circumstances, but it's the human elements that always make it hard.

[Mike Cutler]

Rod
I like that chart. I used to have the .pdf file you posted many years ago, but that was a few hard drive failures ago also.:(

I know we've kind of moved into more capable machines in this discussion, but related to that chart, is a "hack" I use for the Delta two speed shaper I own.
I can get the nominal 7Krpm,and 10Krpm as per the manual, but I also slide the motor up and down on the mounting plate to get an ~ 8Krpm and~ 9Krpm, by swapping the normal pulley configuration. Two speeds becomes four speeds. I Don't know if it would work for other two speed shapers of different colors.??? But it opens up more options. The 100mm cutters I've bought want to run 9krpm to 10Krpm, max. 7Krpm would put them just at the lower limit of the chart, or possibly off as is the case of my lock miter cutter.

[brent stanley]

https://www.harborfreight.com/1-horsepower-wood-shaper-95668.html

Check it out.

Robust!

I'll get one and try this head in it:

400060

[Mike Cutler]

Robust!

I'll get one and try this head in it:

400060

Can I come watch?
I'm standing outside though. ;)

I used to have this really cheesy, aluminum and stamped metal, Craftsman bench top router stand. That HF model in Lowell's post kind of reminds me of it. However, it does get positive reviews.

[brent stanley]

Can I come watch?
I'm standing outside though. ;)

I used to have this really cheesy, aluminum and stamped metal, Craftsman bench top router stand. That HF model in Lowell's post kind of reminds me of it. However, it does get positive reviews.

You bring the sandbags!

[Jared Sankovich]

Load capacity of 6008 bearings are about 20-30% higher than 6205. I believe Felder uses 6009 in their 700 spindle cartridges. Dave

The grizzly/ baleigh/ jet? Version use the same 6008 top and bottom. 150 maybe 160mm seems like the reasonable working envelope on those.

Interestingly the little laguna has a similar design but uses double 6008s top and bottom.

The larger imports (laguna 45/1002, Axminister, bridgewood..etc (the 511,512,513) use double 6008s on top with a 620x on the bottom (and a much longer quil

[Mark Bolton]

welp, you've got two kinds of people here. Those that try to make money with their tools, and those that don't try.

This is not directed at you Martin but I would say gobbledeegook. I have made money with the cheaper shapers in the shop and I have been fine with them. Am I always looking for the $400 deal, of course. The bigger point may be that I never expected more of them than they could produce in the first place. Im not delusional. If I needed more of them than they were able to produce I would have upgraded OR kept my mouth shut for the fact I either didnt have enough profit in the bank to upgrade and had to swap out bearings repeatedly until I did, or that I worked for an employer that forced me to nurse along sub standard equipment. If I were left to becoming proficient with repeatedly swapping out bearings on a given tool Im either an idiot, or I dont have enough money in the bank to move that tool out of the shop. A couple swaps and Im in one column or the other.

If I had become proficient in swapping bearings on a substandard tool it would never be the fault of the tool.. it would be my own fault for expecting more from that tool regardless of its.. specs.. cost.. etc..

In my own world I would I have pounced on a $400 shaper with a bad E stop on Craigslist, in a heart beat. But they dont come up within 800 miles of me if that. So we make due. And again, we dont attempt to run 2600' or moulding through the shaper (as stated 150' is miserable enough).

The simple fact is as nauseous as it gets here listening to hobby folk try to get their equipment nasa tolerances, its equally as nauseous to listen to those who have "been down the road" tell everyone they need a massive machine to put a 1/4" roundover on the edge of a night stand.

Virtually any dog sh*t shaper in this thread will do 90% of anything anyone wants. Who in the heck is talking about running 1000's feet of moulding at $0.025/lf? Um... why? And then a mere shaper thread turns it to some small-package-behind-the-zipper stroke about a 7 head molder. Good lord people. Get real.
'

[Darcy Warner]

This is not directed at you Martin but I would say gobbledeegook. I have made money with the cheaper shapers in the shop and I have been fine with them. Am I always looking for the $400 deal, of course. The bigger point may be that I never expected more of them than they could produce in the first place. Im not delusional. If I needed more of them than they were able to produce I would have upgraded OR kept my mouth shut for the fact I either didnt have enough profit in the bank to upgrade and had to swap out bearings repeatedly until I did, or that I worked for an employer that forced me to nurse along sub standard equipment. If I were left to becoming proficient with repeatedly swapping out bearings on a given tool Im either an idiot, or I dont have enough money in the bank to move that tool out of the shop. A couple swaps and Im in one column or the other.

If I had become proficient in swapping bearings on a substandard tool it would never be the fault of the tool.. it would be my own fault for expecting more from that tool regardless of its.. specs.. cost.. etc..

In my own world I would I have pounced on a $400 shaper with a bad E stop on Craigslist, in a heart beat. But they dont come up within 800 miles of me if that. So we make due. And again, we dont attempt to run 2600' or moulding through the shaper (as stated 150' is miserable enough).

The simple fact is as nauseous as it gets here listening to hobby folk try to get their equipment nasa tolerances, its equally as nauseous to listen to those who have "been down the road" tell everyone they need a massive machine to put a 1/4" roundover on the edge of a night stand.

Virtually any dog sh*t shaper in this thread will do 90% of anything anyone wants. Who in the heck is talking about running 1000's feet of moulding at $0.025/lf? Um... why? And then a mere shaper thread turns it to some small-package-behind-the-zipper stroke about a 7 head molder. Good lord people. Get real.
'

Dude, get over yourself and off your soap box.

I merely stated that at one point I thought my pm27s was going to be a great machine, but soon realized that it was a light duty tin can with too big of a motor for what it was actually capable of doing. After the second bearing swap i bought an invicta and pawned the 27s off on some amish.

Soon after i realized i need a sash sticker for sash parts and then knew a moulder was the next logical step in my life. If you cant deal with my progression and can't handle the fact that a pm27s is really not that great of a machine, well though.

[Mark Bolton]

Dude, get over yourself and off your soap box.

I merely stated that at one point I thought my pm27s was going to be a great machine, but soon realized that it was a light duty tin can with too big of a motor for what it was actually capable of doing. After the second bearing swap i bought an invicta and pawned the 27s off on some amish.

Soon after i realized i need a sash sticker for sash parts and then knew a moulder was the next logical step in my life. If you cant deal with my progression and can't handle the fact that a pm27s is really not that great of a machine, well though.


10-4 skippy.

[Darcy Warner]

10-4 skippy.

Exactly what I expected from you.

I guess owning and running about 20 different shapers in the last 5 years means I probably have no clue how different size machines are built and what they can handle.

[Edwin Santos]

I was watching a woodworking show on PBS and my daughter asked me if I had all the tools the guy was using on the show, and then I realized that I didn't own a Shaper.



Hi, just out of curiosity, would you be considering a shaper if not for the question your daughter asked you while watching the PBS show?

Has not having a shaper restricted your woodworking so far? Especially seeing that you have not one but two router tables, one of which is sporting a PC7518 workhorse.

[Mark Bolton]

Exactly what I expected from you.

I guess owning and running about 20 different shapers in the last 5 years means I probably have no clue how different size machines are built and what they can handle.

And again... if you spent any amount of time becoming proficient at swapping our bearings at nascar speed you did so #1 because it's the machine you had to make do mmue with at the time. Or #2 its the machine you had to due with at the time. The next step is not a 4 ton seven head moulder. Try calibrating you delivery to the forum you get off posting to as opposed to propping yourself up.

I'm the first one to try to push the the boundaries of the hobby world.... your in the weeds dude. Deal with it.

[Darcy Warner]

And again... if you spent any amount of time becoming peoficciebt at swapping our bearings at nascar speed you did so for #1 because it's the machine you had to make do mmue with at the time. Or #2 its the machine you had to due with at the time. The next step is not a 4 ton seven head moulder. Try calibrating you delivery to the forum you get off posting to as opposed to propping yourself up.

I'm the first one to try to push the the boundaries of the hobby world.... your in the weeds dude. Deal with it.

No, I am just a really good mechanic. Last direct drive jointer bearing swap was just over an hour.

I skipped over the 5k pound P-22 moulder that was a good machine, but still not heavy duty enough for my needs.

[Mark Bolton]

Lord. Another luddite. The world is moving towards 10k+ and your hell bent on 40 year old mech. Good luck skippy.

See you at IWF next year.

[Darcy Warner]

Lord. Another luddite. The world is moving towards 10k+ and your hell bent on 40 year old mech. Good luck skippy.

See you at IWF next year.

I have no need for anything cnc controlled.

There is nothing made that compares to a 950 F&E or a Y36, my 107 year old 30" jointer is a perfect machine, my 70s mattison 404 was the pinnacle of US made SLRs,
There really is no better planer than a whitney or a buss 44.

My 1995 hydromat is in better shape than most 3 year old machines and it will run 200 feet a minute with jointed heads.

I don't need to be new machine cool, nor want to.

[ChrisA Edwards]

Hi, just out of curiosity, would you be considering a shaper if not for the question your daughter asked you while watching the PBS show?

Has not having a shaper restricted your woodworking so far? Especially seeing that you have not one but two router tables, one of which is sporting a PC7518 workhorse.

The answer to both your questions is No.

That's why the title of this thread is "Educate me on Shapers".

Three years ago, I owned a few hand tools and a 30 year old Shopsmith Mark V.

I sold the Mark V and have slowly been buying nice hobby level equipment that will allow me to enjoy woodworking as I enter retirement.

At this point I can see where a Shaper is a very nice to have, but not a need to have.

A week ago I didn't understand 3 phase, VFD's, RPC's, Euro Block cutter heads, but now I am scanning craigslist and eBay, for what might be a decent opportunity to buy another tool that will enhance my hobby.

[David Kumm]

I applaud you for wanting to learn, not just about woodworking, but also the machines. I started just wanting to work wood and should have learned more about how machines are built and how they should be built to handle the tooling and task. As you are finding out there is more to it than hp and table size and that info will save you money and body parts. Dave

[Jared Sankovich]

Just to keep this informative. As mentioned previously in the thread bearing load rating is just part of the overall build

Delta hd quill 2.25" od
400121

Grizzly 8621 quill (3.125 od) same basic build as the pm2700
400124

400125

Bridgewood 511 quill (3.935" od)
400126

400127

I'm curious to see if anyone could snap a pic and measurement of a medium+ to heavy duty shaper quill.


Edit
Seriously what is up with the tiny pics on this site?

[Darcy Warner]

Just to keep this informative. As mentioned previously in the thread bearing load rating is just part of the overall build

Delta hd quill 2.25" od
400121

Grizzly 8621 quill (3.125 od) same basic build as the pm2700
400124

400125

Bridgewood 511 quill (3.935" od)
400126

400127

I'm curious to see if anyone could snap a pic and measurement of a medium+ to heavy duty shaper quill.


Edit
Seriously what is up with the tiny pics on this site?

I am sure I have some. I have rebuilt a couple whitney's, scm t160s, my bauerle smf/2 is huge, my scmt160 with oil pump bearing lube system is huge.

Replacing bearings on one of these class shapers will cost you a minimum of 1k up to 1400.

The last scmi 130 I did, used a pretty generic 6300 series c3 clearance, abec 3 sealed bearing. I tried finding a better class bearing for it, but to no avail.

[brent stanley]

Just to keep this informative. As mentioned previously in the thread bearing load rating is just part of the overall build

Delta hd quill 2.25" od
400121

Grizzly 8621 quill (3.125 od) same basic build as the pm2700
400124

400125

Bridgewood 511 quill (3.935" od)
400126

400127

I'm curious to see if anyone could snap a pic and measurement of a medium+ to heavy duty shaper quill.


Edit
Seriously what is up with the tiny pics on this site?

Here's a pic of the Wadkin EQ quill assembly followed by a bearing pic. Don't remember for sure, but I know it weighs more than 100lbs.

400148

400150

B

[David Kumm]

Darcy, my T130 from the early 2000s runs a 6011 on the top which is light for a shaper of that size. I believe they used to run a double bearing but don't know what. My Martin T21 runs open phenolic cage ABEC7 bearings with a mechanical oil pump. If it weren't for ebay they would be expensive. It is almost impossible to find any precision higher than ABEC3 in a sealed or shielded bearing. Did the old Whitneys run an oil bath on their 63xx bearings? I would expect that due to the speed needed. A precision oil bearing will run at 3-4X the speed of a standard stamped steel cage one. Here is the T130 quill- or as much as I could see with the car in the way. 400149400151 Here are a Knapp, Felder, and SCM Spindle. The Martin is very similar to the SCM but the quill is heavier. The Knapp is a good medium machine but the spindle is compromised in strength due to the draw bar hole through the center. That limits the length. The Felder spindle includes the two 6009 bearings. The spindle is solid but the weak point would be the smallest diameter belt sheave. Irrelevant on the 700 size but the larger shapers can run a 40-50mm spindle but the smallest diameter between the bearings is less so that reduces the build. The SCM and Martin tapers and spindles are solid and the distance between the bearings is the farthest apart. The light duty 6011 top bearing is the weak link as I've beaten to death before. Dave

[Edwin Santos]

The answer to both your questions is No.

That's why the title of this thread is "Educate me on Shapers".

Three years ago, I owned a few hand tools and a 30 year old Shopsmith Mark V.

I sold the Mark V and have slowly been buying nice hobby level equipment that will allow me to enjoy woodworking as I enter retirement.

At this point I can see where a Shaper is a very nice to have, but not a need to have.

A week ago I didn't understand 3 phase, VFD's, RPC's, Euro Block cutter heads, but now I am scanning craigslist and eBay, for what might be a decent opportunity to buy another tool that will enhance my hobby.

Fair enough, thanks for the reply. Good luck with your search,

[David Kumm]

Brent, the EQ ran Angular contact bearings originally. I think some replace them with 6311 deep groove but the A/C are what the quill was designed for. The guys at Canadian know all things Wadkin but Wadkin always used expensive brass cage bearings in their machines. Dave

[Darcy Warner]

Darcy, my T130 from the early 2000s runs a 6011 on the top which is light for a shaper of that size. I believe they used to run a double bearing but don't know what. My Martin T21 runs open phenolic cage ABEC7 bearings with a mechanical oil pump. If it weren't for ebay they would be expensive. It is almost impossible to find any precision higher than ABEC3 in a sealed or shielded bearing. Did the old Whitneys run an oil bath on their 63xx bearings? I would expect that due to the speed needed. A precision oil bearing will run at 3-4X the speed of a standard stamped steel cage one. Here is the T130 quill- or as much as I could see with the car in the way. 400149400151 Here are a Knapp, Felder, and SCM Spindle. The Martin is very similar to the SCM but the quill is heavier. The Knapp is a good medium machine but the spindle is compromised in strength due to the draw bar hole through the center. That limits the length. The Felder spindle includes the two 6009 bearings. The spindle is solid but the weak point would be the smallest diameter belt sheave. Irrelevant on the 700 size but the larger shapers can run a 40-50mm spindle but the smallest diameter between the bearings is less so that reduces the build. The SCM and Martin tapers and spindles are solid and the distance between the bearings is the farthest apart. The light duty 6011 top bearing is the weak link as I've beaten to death before. Dave

I know the mid to late 90s scmis ran a pretty insignificant bearing, moderately disappointed to find that in the first one I tore down.

Whitney's, porters, and the like had a sump with a wick for the oil lube system.

I have been on a bearing spree lately and have bought so many they are starting to run together.

Side note: bearings for the top head in a whitney s970 are close to 2500 bucks.

Buss ran abec7 6311's in their planers.

The fafnir abec7 bearing I just bought for the motor side of a 24" YA joiner was huge an expensive.

[David Kumm]

I have the best luck finding Fafnir MM or the old RHP precision. The 63xx are getting really hard to find for <200-300, especially the 6311 and 6313. The 62xx are a little easier. I've got a box full of bearings I found reasonable but it is luck when I have what I need in inventory. Dave

[Van Huskey]

There is no doubt that this type of shaper threads has a bit of the ole spindle measuring contest vibe. However, historically they have some of the most interesting information tucked into them.

There are tons of hobbyists that have gained a huge amount of capacity in their shop with "just" a Grizzly G1026 or Delta HD shaper running a 3/4" quill. That is still a big jump from any router table. Nobody should get the impression you need a T150 class shaper to do shaper things but they also shouldn't think that any machine called a shaper opens the whole catalog of shaper tooling.

Speaking for myself these sorts of shaper threads are some of my favorite threads on SMC.

[Joe Calhoon]

Just to keep this informative. As mentioned previously in the thread bearing load rating is just part of the overall build


I'm curious to see if anyone could snap a pic and measurement of a medium+ to heavy duty shaper quill.

?

Jared,here is a picture of the quill assembly of my 40 year old Martin T23. I would consider it a medium plus size shaper. My newer T26 shaper is a lot heavier, larger and more HP. The quill on that one is larger in diameter but shorter in length.

400163

[Mike Cutler]

There is no doubt that this type of shaper threads has a bit of the ole spindle measuring contest vibe. However, historically they have some of the most interesting information tucked into them.

There are tons of hobbyists that have gained a huge amount of capacity in their shop with "just" a Grizzly G1026 or Delta HD shaper running a 3/4" quill. That is still a big jump from any router table. Nobody should get the impression you need a T150 class shaper to do shaper things but they also shouldn't think that any machine called a shaper opens the whole catalog of shaper tooling.

Speaking for myself these sorts of shaper threads are some of my favorite threads on SMC.


I think I'm going to suffer from "Bearing Inferiority Syndrome." I have the little guy at 2.25".:o I truly am just kidding.
The Delta Shaper I have is more than enough for my needs, and as long as I don't abuse it, it will stay that way. If not, I know where to get the bearings replaced.
I like these threads also, there's a ton of info here. A lot of personal opinion, but that's just fine also.
I've said it before, but at the risk of droning on, I think the shaper is a machine that was "lost" for some reason from the "base machines" that make up a working wood shop, of any level. I think that's why people are interested in it.

Van
You're right, even at 2.25" bearing diameter,my Delta HD is still a big leap from the biggest router you can put in a table.
Of course, a 1400lb. Wadkin EQ, advertised with .0002 runout,did come up on Craigslist out on the 'Cape recently.;):eek:

[brent stanley]

Brent, the EQ ran Angular contact bearings originally. I think some replace them with 6311 deep groove but the A/C are what the quill was designed for. The guys at Canadian know all things Wadkin but Wadkin always used expensive brass cage bearings in their machines. Dave

Mine's the 9000 RPM model and has the original, patented oil mist bearing system in it. A pleasure to use....

[brent stanley]

Of course, a 1400lb. Wadkin EQ, advertised with .0002 runout,did come up on Craigslist out on the 'Cape recently.;):eek:

Go get it!

[Mike Cutler]

Go get it!

It looks like it either sold, or got pulled. I don't see it any longer. I wouldn't have been able to move around a 1400lb. machine, let alone have the space.
It had a $2900.00 price on it. Looked really cool though.
There are a lot of shapers for sale in the North Atlantic/New England region right now.

[Jared Sankovich]

Nobody should get the impression you need a T150 class shaper to do shaper things but they also shouldn't think that any machine called a shaper opens the whole catalog of shaper tooling.



That is the missing info with most of the available (online) shaper / spindle moulder content. You can open a catalog and see all sorts of tooling and have no idea your delta home craft 1/2" 1hp LD shaper can't spin a 12" tenoning disc..

That might be a stretch, but when I bought my delta hd all I knew about shapers was I didn't have one and it was likely better then the router table I had.

The quill information is really interesting to me as I almost didn't look at the bridgewood I bought because I thought it was another off shore clone (exactly like the grizzly 5hp I already had) not realizing the machine was 2 to 3x more massive / rigid / substantial in the quill assembly. Just looking at the cabinet and table they look almost identical in build. I had been casually looking for that $800 t130 that never seems to be there when I call.:)

[David Kumm]

When Wilke was in business, they did a good job with their imports. They seemed to have some QC and their stuff always had a little better reputation than some very similar clones. The ACM bandsaws they imported under their name were very stout. Delta Industrial put their name on some of the same shapers as Bridgewood. Dave

[brent stanley]

That is the missing info with most of the available (online) shaper / spindle moulder content. You can open a catalog and see all sorts of tooling and have no idea your delta home craft 1/2" 1hp LD shaper can't spin a 12" tenoning disc..

That might be a stretch, but when I bought my delta hd all I knew about shapers was I didn't have one and it was likely better then the router table I had.

The quill information is really interesting to me as I almost didn't look at the bridgewood I bought because I thought it was another off shore clone (exactly like the grizzly 5hp I already had) not realizing the machine was 2 to 3x more massive / rigid / substantial in the quill assembly. Just looking at the cabinet and table they look almost identical in build. I had been casually looking for that $800 t130 that never seems to be there when I call.:)

I guess that's sorta what I was getting at with post #121, wondering if a bit of a reference could be cobbled together so one could offer some advice if only very general...

B

[ChrisA Edwards]

A quick side question, Power Feeders: do these normally wire straight into the electrical contacts on the Shaper or do they use a separate power plug/power source.

If I go new, seems there are about 4 brands, all with similar pricing, Extrema, Powermatic, ShopFox, Grizzly, all about the same price.

And second question, is the mounting bolt pattern pretty much standard spacing across all units.

If I go new, I'm leaning towards a Jet 5HP 1P unit. In its price range, it seems to have the best features and capacity and Jet/Powermatic are headquartered 15 minutes away from where I live.

[Darcy Warner]

I prefer them to be wired to a source so that I can run it without having the machine running. Yes, mount bolt Patterns are basically universal now

[Mark Bolton]

If your looking to buy once and the work will do affords it dont forget to look at the Comatic DC line of feeders (DC30, 40, etc). coupled with their smart stand its pretty much the ultimate feeder. The price will choke you but they are pretty much unbeatable for versatility.

[brent stanley]

A quick side question, Power Feeders: do these normally wire straight into the electrical contacts on the Shaper or do they use a separate power plug/power source.

If I go new, seems there are about 4 brands, all with similar pricing, Extrema, Powermatic, ShopFox, Grizzly, all about the same price.

And second question, is the mounting bolt pattern pretty much standard spacing across all units.

If I go new, I'm leaning towards a Jet 5HP 1P unit. In its price range, it seems to have the best features and capacity and Jet/Powermatic are headquartered 15 minutes away from where I live.

I'm sure there are exceptions, but all of mine have their own plugs which means I can move it easily if I have to to another machine without having to do any wiring. Also, you'd have to look at electrical compliance WRT tapping into existing control infrastructure on the shaper itself. You will be adding a load to a system that may not have been engineered for much more than what the shaper is expecting to draw.

Believe it or not, I have three different feeders and they have three different bolt patterns, though I expect the powermatic, ShopFox and Grizz share a pattern on their smaller units. Certainly worth verifying though!

Good luck!

B

[David Kumm]

The units you named should all be sourced from Comatic and differ only in fit and finish. There are still feeders made by Steff and Pertici, both Italian. The Comatic bolt patterns should be the same depending on the type of stand. The smart stand is really nice on a shaper but very expensive. Dave

[ChrisA Edwards]

Thanks, looks like I'll probably zero in on the Comatic DC40 in 110v. I can't justify the smart stand for the small about of time I will put this to use.

[Mark Bolton]

Thanks, looks like I'll probably zero in on the Comatic DC40 in 110v. I can't justify the smart stand for the small about of time I will put this to use.

They hurt real bad until you start using them. Youll probably still be impressed but coming from the standard 3 and 4 wheel feeders up until these they are a major improvement. For me personally if I had a feeder that was going to be doing pretty much fixed operations I'd stay with the AF style or equivalent but having the ability to adjust your feeds in 1' increments on the fly is very handy when you do varied work. If you get the DC 40 its a beast (big) when it comes out of the box but its worth every penny in my mind if your going to move any amount of material over time. You'll be able to move it to your saw, jointer, etc as needed as well which is a massive labor saver.

[ChrisA Edwards]

So I'm raving an older thread I started a few months ago.

I've decided on a new Hammer F3 230V Single Phase. It's just a tad over $5K delivered.

It has a sliding table, Tilting Arbor, Forward and Reverse, 4 speeds.

I can't find any reviews on it, is there any reason I shouldn't buy this machine for light hobby use?

[Mike Cutler]

Chris
I'm not familiar with the machine, but for light "hobby use" it looks more than adequate.
Nice looking machine.

PS
It was a good thread you started off. A lot of information came out in it:cool:

[David Kumm]

I'd look for a used Felder 700. Way more machine and shapers get light use so little risk if you are careful. The price difference is much less than what you gain. Dave

[Patrick Walsh]

I would just assume buy a router table than anything less than a 700 series Felder shaper.

More often than not and by comparison to a industrial machine I think to myself that my 700z is pretty much just a really nice router table..

[Chris Hachet]

There is no doubt that this type of shaper threads has a bit of the ole spindle measuring contest vibe. However, historically they have some of the most interesting information tucked into them.

There are tons of hobbyists that have gained a huge amount of capacity in their shop with "just" a Grizzly G1026 or Delta HD shaper running a 3/4" quill. That is still a big jump from any router table. Nobody should get the impression you need a T150 class shaper to do shaper things but they also shouldn't think that any machine called a shaper opens the whole catalog of shaper tooling.

Speaking for myself these sorts of shaper threads are some of my favorite threads on SMC.

Agree. Adding a Delta HD added hugely to what I can do.