LED Lights Made a HUGE difference!

[Frederick Skelly]

Well, you folks were right again!

I don't do electrical wiring. I worry about screwing it up and causing a fire. So this morning I had an electrician out to install 7 ballasted fixtures with fourteen 5000 degree "Smart Drive LEDs". He also added 2 new outlets. The job was far and away mostly labor - 2 guys for 5 hours.

Man, oh man, those LEDs make a HUGE difference. It's like daylight in there now. It's astonishing.

Edit: And those 14 bulbs use only 15watts each. That's 210 total watts for the whole set.

Thanks for the advice!

Fred

[Bruce Page]

Sounds cool but expensive. I installed 8 48” four bulb T8 fixtures when I was putting my shop together. I would like to upgrade them to Smart Drive LED’s at some point but buying 32 bulbs will be a good chunk of change. I’ve switched out all of the other lights to LED. I really love the 100w equivalent LED bulbs in my task lighting.

[Brice Rogers]

After I installed a bunch of LED replacement bulbs I liked the difference too.

But I'm just wondering why you had ballasted fixtures installed? The LED bulbs don't "really" need ballasts. But one of the bulb types was designed to be dropped into an existing ballasted fixture. So, if you already had ballasted fixtures, they would drop in and wouldn't require any modification. But for a new installation I would have thought that you would have installed the ballast-bypass (direct-wire) type of LED replacement bulb.

But there are two drawbacks with using LEDs replacement bulbs that are designed to work in a ballasted fixture: (1) if the ballast fails, it will either need to be replaced or you will need to switch to a "by-pass" type LED, and (2) the ballasts normally get a little warm during operation (which is normal) but this represents energy that is being lost in the form of heat. I think that a replacement ballast is roughly the same cost as a new fixture - - around $30.

When I switched over my workshop, I had considered keeping the ballasts. But I had some old fixtures that were magnetic, some that were electronic, some that were instant start, etc. I found that the drop-in type of replacement bulbs would only work in some fixtures but not all. So, I removed all of the ballasts and put in the "by-pass" (direct-wire) type of replacement LED bulbs. They work great.

I find it interesting that the ballast-type LEDs are actually more popular than the bypass type LEDs. This has got to do with the convenience of the drop-in installation.

[Mike Chalmers]

After I installed a bunch of LED replacement bulbs I liked the difference too.

But I'm just wondering why you had ballasted fixtures installed? The LED bulbs don't "really" need ballasts. But one of the bulb types was designed to be dropped into an existing ballasted fixture. So, if you already had ballasted fixtures, they would drop in and wouldn't require any modification. But for a new installation I would have thought that you would have installed the ballast-bypass (direct-wire) type of LED replacement bulb.

But there are two drawbacks with using LEDs replacement bulbs that are designed to work in a ballasted fixture: (1) if the ballast fails, it will either need to be replaced or you will need to switch to a "by-pass" type LED, and (2) the ballasts normally get a little warm during operation (which is normal) but this represents energy that is being lost in the form of heat. I think that a replacement ballast is roughly the same cost as a new fixture - - around $30.

When I switched over my workshop, I had considered keeping the ballasts. But I had some old fixtures that were magnetic, some that were electronic, some that were instant start, etc. I found that the drop-in type of replacement bulbs would only work in some fixtures but not all. So, I removed all of the ballasts and put in the "by-pass" (direct-wire) type of replacement LED bulbs. They work great.

I find it interesting that the ballast-type LEDs are actually more popular than the bypass type LEDs. This has got to do with the convenience of the drop-in installation.

Can't speak for anyone else, but .....
Costs based on my experience buying through Home Depot Canada.
Complete, new LED fixture - $150.
New T8 ballast - $18, drop in LED bulbs - $7 each (on sale). Another option is new task fixture, $18 - $22.
Made my decision easy.

[Frederick Skelly]

After I installed a bunch of LED replacement bulbs I liked the difference too.

But I'm just wondering why you had ballasted fixtures installed? The LED bulbs don't "really" need ballasts. But one of the bulb types was designed to be dropped into an existing ballasted fixture. So, if you already had ballasted fixtures, they would drop in and wouldn't require any modification. But for a new installation I would have thought that you would have installed the ballast-bypass (direct-wire) type of LED replacement bulb.

Long story..... I went with the ballasted because of a scheduling problem. We'd intended to use direct wired. They were out of stock when he went to get them yesterday and the supply house needed a week to get them (The Holidays). So he bought the ballasted fixtures and planned to "shunt" the ballast so they'd be direct. It was then that he realized the "tombstones" for the direct bulbs were different too, and he couldn't get them either. He called me and we decided to go with the ballasted because I'd have a difficult time rescheduling time off at work. (I only had today off, so it was do it today or postpone to mid-January.) I've used this company before and they are reputable. And the price for the job was the same either way. So I pressed ahead. My folks have had flourescents in their kitchen 20 years and they've never replaced a ballast. So I figured my odds are good there. The risk is probably more that at some point, the ballasted LED bulbs might become extinct. But I guess we'll see.

[Art Mann]

This past summer, I built a new shop with all LED lights. As it turns out, the cheapest alternative at the time (and may still be) was to buy 8 foot fluorescent fixtures with ballasts and populate them with LED tubes that were compatible. I have no idea why that was more economical than buying dedicated LED fixtures but that is the truth.

[Lee Schierer]

I've looked at replacing my 40 watt tubes with non-ballast LED tubes, but at $12.75 per tube (Home Depot price), it would take 8,500 hours of operation to break even on the lamps at 10 cents per kwh. That's 1,062 eight hour days. For my home shop I don't think you can justify the price of the new LED tubes as it would take me more than 6 years to break even if I worked in my shop for just for hours per day every day of the week. Even getting tubes at $6.00 per tube it still takes at least 3 years of four hour days with no holidays or vacation just to break even. I probably don't put in 100 four hour days in a year, so my shop would take far longer to break even.

[Frederick Skelly]

I agree Lee. The price hasnt come down enough to justify the conversion for the sake of cost savings. The tech is still too expensive. It will come down over time, but we're still a ways off. (Remember $900 VCRs?) I wanted this change primarily to increase the brightness in the shop. 64 watts in each of my fixtures wasn't bright enough and I didn't want to add more in the main bay. So for me, it was worth the cost for that reason alone. Maybe not so for others.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

I agree Lee. The price hasnt come down enough to justify the conversion for the sake of cost savings. The tech is still too expensive. It will come down over time, but we're still a ways off. (Remember $900 VCRs?) I wanted this change primarily to increase the brightness in the shop. 64 watts in each of my fixtures wasn't bright enough and I didn't want to add more in the main bay. So for me, it was worth the cost for that reason alone. Maybe not so for others.


I had one of $900 VCRs....even worse, it was a Sony Beta! 3 years after I bought it, you couldn't rent movies locally for it. LOL!

[John K Jordan]

Excellent. To me, good lighting is worth every penny, regardless of the cost. I put in T5 fluorescents instead of LEDs and the quality and quantity of the light is incredible. The color temp on mine is also 5000K.

As our eyes get older we need more light. Also, the brighter the light, the more the iris closes and just like a camera the depth of field increases making it easier it is to focus on things, both near or far.

JKJ

[Edwin Santos]

Fred,
Good job! Your workshop is your sanctuary so if the lighting upgrade makes it better, good on you.
I think the upgrade was free in a sense because you will ultimately get your money back through energy efficiency and bulb length.
Also, it's not just about money. According to what I have read, based on the UV spectrum and wavelength band, the general thinking is that LED light is better (maybe much better) for your eyes and health. Not to mention that bright lighting levels are important for the intricate tasks we are often doing in woodworking.

In my case, I sprang for LED wraparound fixtures. I think they're made by Simkar. I know there were cheaper ways to do it, but I haven't regretted it for a moment.
Edwin

[Bruce Page]

I had one of $900 VCRs....even worse, it was a Sony Beta! 3 years after I bought it, you couldn't rent movies locally for it. LOL!

I had a Sony Betamax too. The betamax video quality was so much better than VHS but Sony did a lousy job promoting it.

[Tony Latham]

Do you know how many lumens/sq foot?

T

[Darrell Bade]

Problem I have with LED with my experience in industrial settings and home is the life is terrible, nowhere near what they claim.

[John Goodin]

Ken, yesterday my daughter just had a white elephant gift exchange in her debate class. The only criteria was it had to be school appropriate and totally useless. The gift that got the biggest laugh was a VHS tape. I’m sure they have no idea what a beta tape looks like.

[Frederick Skelly]

Thanks guys. I'm tickled silly with the change. I really am. And the LED tech is bound to get cheaper and maybe better too. I just cannot believe the difference.

"I had a Sony Betamax too."
I received a used one in a white elephant exchange. Still own it but never use it. I'm told the quality is so high that students in visual arts programs will pay good money for one. I should try - it could finance another hand plane. :)

"Do you know how many lumens/sq foot?"
I got the Smart Drive KT-LED15T8-48GC-850S. The specs say they are 2200 lumens, 15 watt, 5000 degree.

"Problem I have with LED with my experience in industrial settings and home is the life is terrible, nowhere near what they claim".
I agree with you. I put a date on mine when I put them in the house so I can track that. So far, the first failure was at 2 years 3 mos. In a very heavy use room. We shall see.

Have a good Saturday!
Fred

[Frank Pratt]

Hi, my name is Frank, and I too am a recovering Betamax user...

Anyway, back on topic. The interesting thing with LEDs is that the lumen/watt output is very comparable to high pressure sodium or fluorescent, in the neighborhood of 100L/W. Where LEDs have the huge advantage is that all the output is in one direction, whereas other light sources loose so much of their output to fixture optics. So in most fixtures, a 14W LED lamp is about equivalent to a 32W T8 fluorescent lamp & better than a 40W T12.

[Bill Space]

Long story..... It was then that he realized the "tombstones" for the direct bulbs were different too...

This is strange. Are you in the US?

I just converted 12 2-tube shop lights from standard tubes to LED direct wired tubes I bought off EBAY for around $4.50 each delivered. The tombstones were not an issue at all. Direct replacement physically was a non issue.

These were two different types of shop lights. One had the standard ballast which I removed, and the other type had LCR networks built into each end of the assembly, which I also eliminated.

In any case, the tombstones in both type fixtures were plug and play with the LED tubes.

[Frederick Skelly]

Don't know Bill. I'm repeating what the man told me. Based on what you said, yeah it is odd.

[John K Jordan]

...Where LEDs have the huge advantage is that all the output is in one direction, whereas other light sources loose so much of their output to fixture optics....

This is so true. Even white reflectors absorb a lot. I installed T5 HO bulbs in fixtures with mirrored internal surfaces to direct more light downward.

[Rod Sheridan]

Depending upon where you live, you may not be able to convert a fixture to direct wire LED's without losing the electrical approval.

This is an issue where I live, you need to retain the ballast to keep the approval unless you use a kit specifically designed for that exact model fixture....Regards, Rod

[Doug Garson]

Depending upon where you live, you may not be able to convert a fixture to direct wire LED's without losing the electrical approval.

This is an issue where I live, you need to retain the ballast to keep the approval unless you use a kit specifically designed for that exact model fixture....Regards, Rod
Rod, is that based on Ontario or Canadian code and does it matter if it's a commercial shop? Converting to LEDs is in my plan for next year and I'm trying to decide which way to go.

[Malcolm Schweizer]

I switched to LED through my whole house except two rooms that has halogen lamps. Now that I got an energy monitor (see recent thread in off topic about that) I see how much more energy the halogens use.

I do feel that the LED's have gotten dimmer over the last 4 years since installing them. I just used LED bulbs in regular fixtures.

[Frank Pratt]

This is strange. Are you in the US?

I just converted 12 2-tube shop lights from standard tubes to LED direct wired tubes I bought off EBAY for around $4.50 each delivered. The tombstones were not an issue at all. Direct replacement physically was a non issue.

These were two different types of shop lights. One had the standard ballast which I removed, and the other type had LCR networks built into each end of the assembly, which I also eliminated.

In any case, the tombstones in both type fixtures were plug and play with the LED tubes.

Some fixtures have shunted tombstones, meaning the 2 contacts are shorted together. LED lamps that are the ballast bypass type need to have a tombstone at the power end that has discrete contacts; 1 for the hot, 1 for the neutral. Ballast compatible lamps use the original tombstones.

[glenn bradley]

It is great to have good working light. Congrats on the install. For me it is an upgrade through attrition method. I started with the $17 Lowes dual lamp T-8 fixtures assuming I would replace them with quality fixtures once things were more organized. They lasted better than expected so I eventually built out to 16 of them, many have been operating since the mid 2000's. Somewhere around the 12 year mark a couple of them failed and I replaced them with Costco LED fixtures at $60 a pair on sale. I just wanted to mention this for others who are already outfitted who may have gone the inexpensive route early on like I did. you can sneak up on the replacements based on failures :)

The LED fixtures are great as I use a brutal 6500k lamp in the traditional fixtures and am used to that nice bright light. I picked up a couple more LED fixtures the last time they were on sale and will just swap out the next Lowe's fixtures to die. I did pick up one obnoxious fixture from Sam's that is slow to start and is really harsh. This has nothing to do with Sam's, it just happened to be the product they had.

P.s. I have a variety of incandescent and other lighting that I use for lumber selection and finishing. The near blue light in the shop is great for working visibility but, you don't want to select colors under them; no one that I know uses that color-temp in their home :D

[Martin Wasner]

I'm glad I went with LED in my shop. We've got I think 34 high bays and the exterior wall packs on a single 15 amp circuit.

We had a pretty good storm come through towards the end of summer. We lost one leg, and had exterior lights and half the interior. Kinda funny, my shop power is picked up just before a tree knocked some stuff out feeding the rest of town. The whole town was dark except for my shop.

[Bill Space]

Some fixtures have shunted tombstones, meaning the 2 contacts are shorted together. LED lamps that are the ballast bypass type need to have a tombstone at the power end that has discrete contacts; 1 for the hot, 1 for the neutral. Ballast compatible lamps use the original tombstones.

Frank, if the ends are shunted together, which is the case with about every fixture I have converted to direct voltage application, this should not be an issue. And if they were not shunted together, and had some resistance between the tombstone pins, that resistance would be a non issue if both pins were connected to the same voltage, after the conversion was done.

So i do not think there is an issue regardless of how the tombstones are originally wired, if one understands the basics...

I checked the tubes I bought and the two pins are shorted together inside the tubes. So to get the tube to work, only one pin on each end needs to have voltage applied. In the case of AC in the US, black to one end, white to the other...