Possible legal issues with custom made baby fence

[Mark Gibney]

A client has asked me to design and build a lot of fences to protect their baby from hurting himself on stairways in their house. They want the fences to be beautiful, and sympathetic to the house interior.

Their house is big, and there are about 8 places they need fences, ranging from 3' to 18' spans.

The floors and stairs are covered in hard modern tile, so they do need the fences, and I would love the income from the job.

But my wife is concerned that if anything goes wrong and someone is injured that we could be the target of a zealous lawyer.

For what it's worth I am licensed, bonded and insured for millwork and cabinetry in California.

Would you take this job?

[Kevin Beitz]

Put on bill of sale... Dog barrier.

[Mike Cutler]

A client has asked me to design and build a lot of fences to protect their baby from hurting himself on stairways in their house. They want the fences to be beautiful, and sympathetic to the house interior.

Their house is big, and there are about 8 places they need fences, ranging from 3' to 18' spans.

The floors and stairs are covered in hard modern tile, so they do need the fences, and I would love the income from the job.

But my wife is concerned that if anything goes wrong and someone is injured that we could be the target of a zealous lawyer.

For what it's worth I am licensed, bonded and insured for millwork and cabinetry in California.

Would you take this job?


No, I personally would not, unless I had obtained legal advice upfront.
Your wife is correct. The liability could be huge, no matter what you call it on a bill of sale.

[Carl Beckett]

I would pass. Unfortunately, just the day and age we live in.

There is a product to put over cribs to keep the child from climbing out and falling. It was done for safety. Turns out some of them were tangled in it and strangled. And that was a reputable child safety design company.

I worked in consumer products for a few years. Every time something went wrong, customer sued. And many times it was blatant customer behavior that caused the problem but they just wanted a payout or to blame a company for their stupidity. One time they claimed a printer malfunction burned the house down. Investigation of the rubble discovered a foil candle bottom - the candle was put on top of the printer and it burned down and started a bigger fire. But the customer went after the printer company. These stories are many and go on and on.

Everything is fine until it isnt.

If you really want the work, you may be able to take the approach of being simply the 'fabricator'. That is, someone else has to do the design and get it approved and signed off on by building inspector (or some official reviewing body stating the design is valid). You then simply fabricate to the print. Any design liability is with the designer.

[Rod Sheridan]

A client has asked me to design and build a lot of fences to protect their baby from hurting himself on stairways in their house. They want the fences to be beautiful, and sympathetic to the house interior.

Their house is big, and there are about 8 places they need fences, ranging from 3' to 18' spans.

The floors and stairs are covered in hard modern tile, so they do need the fences, and I would love the income from the job.

But my wife is concerned that if anything goes wrong and someone is injured that we could be the target of a zealous lawyer.

For what it's worth I am licensed, bonded and insured for millwork and cabinetry in California.

Would you take this job?

No Mark, I wouldn't unless you have an Engineer design it and stamp the drawings, and inspect the completed items.

I'm sure you're a very competent wood worker, however the design of safety items, especially where children are involved is something that only knowledgeable individuals should do, and the product should be inspected and tested to applicable standards.........Regards, Rod.

[roger wiegand]

1) Acquire, read, and follow the related regulations to the letter. CPSC for the feds, I wouldn't be surprised if CA had additional rules. There may be others.
2) Make sure your product and business liability insurance is in place at least at the usual $2M level, and consider going significantly higher. Increasing the limits may not be exorbitantly more expensive, talk to your agent.

Neither waivers nor what you call it on a bill of sale will make any difference. (especially given that you've publicly documented that you know what you're building here!) If you follow the regulations to the letter you should be OK, but back it up with an appropriate insurance policy. Building a legally compliant product provides no protection from being sued, it just improves your chance of prevailing in the end-- you want the insurance company on your side and providing the lawyer.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

I've wondered how tree house builders and wooden playground equipment manufacturers don't get sued to oblivion. It may be helpful to have your business structured as an LLC or Inc, which should give a degree of protection in the event of a lawsuit.

[Curt Harms]

I've wondered how tree house builders and wooden playground equipment manufacturers don't get sued to oblivion. It may be helpful to have your business structured as an LLC or Inc, which should give a degree of protection in the event of a lawsuit.

My understanding - and I'm no expert, just know what I read in the paper - that being an LLC or sub S corp. provides limited protection. If there is only one shareholder, good luck though I imagine it depends on the jurisdiction.

[Bill Dufour]

Sounds like these customers have lots of extra money to hire lawyers if anything goes wrong. Furthermore I think many rich folks will blame others, and not themselves, if anything goes wrong.
Bill D

[Mark Gibney]

Much as I hate to pass up on a good job like this, I think you're all probably right to say I should pass on this one.
I appreciate your advice.

Mark

[Jim Riseborough]

If your insurance covers it, build it. How is it any different to you if one of your cabinets falls of the wall and hits a kid, the lawyers will still come after you even if not your fault.

Build in the price money for a rider if need be to add more protection for this job.

[Brian Holcombe]

If I have a question like this I usually go to my insurance agent and ask him.

[Matt Day]

I wouldn’t touch that with a 10 foot pole.

[Bradley Gray]

I would talk to my insurance person (maybe add something specific and put it on the bill) and also the building inspector. If an inspector approves the work and you have enough insurance go make some money.

[Mel Fulks]

That sounds like a really dumb idea. There is no substitute for constantly watching a child. They need a Nanny.

[Matt Day]

That sounds like a really dumb idea. There is no substitute for constantly watching a child. They need a Nanny.

I’d disagree with that. You will find multiple baby gates in 99/100 homes with kids. I’m a stay at home dad and had about 5 (and a playpen) when my kids couldn’t traverse the stairs safely or weren’t allowed in certain rooms that weren’t childproofed.

[Mel Fulks]

Matt, you were there with them,so I see no real difference. In my home ,and most others I've visited the children were
not allowed to approach the gates . Pinched fingers,broken gates.The gates were just the last perimeter. Children benefit from being around bright colors, geometric shapes ,light and shadow. My guess is op's eccentric clients like children ,but find their decorating style garish.

[Bryan Lisowski]

Build it. You are licensed and insured, maybe see if you need to update your coverage, but I would build.

[lowell holmes]

https://www.google.com/search?q=baby+gate+walmart&rlz=1C1UCRO_enUS813US813&oq=baby+gate&aqs=chrome.1.69i57j0l5.10143j1j8&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

There are several products similar to this one online,

[Wade Lippman]

I wonder if you could avoid liability by having your customer design it. Since you do not claim any expertise in child safety, your liability would be limited to problems with your construction, rather than to design. I say this as neither a lawyer nor insurance agent, but think it makes sense.

Years ago my wife wrote a reference book on pediatric drug prescribing. I was terrified that a decimal place would be off somewhere and someone would die; and was thoroughly relieved when it went out of print. My lawyer didn't think a LLC was necessary, but I sure would have slept better.

[Van Huskey]

My understanding - and I'm no expert, just know what I read in the paper - that being an LLC or sub S corp. provides limited protection. If there is only one shareholder, good luck though I imagine it depends on the jurisdiction.

The key is how you actually run the LLC or subchapter S. It is rare that a good attorney will set up one with a single entity named, even in a sole proprietorship. Piercing the corporate veil is certainly possible especially if the corp was set up via "internet forms".


Sounds like these customers have lots of extra money to hire lawyers if anything goes wrong. Furthermore I think many rich folks will blame others, and not themselves, if anything goes wrong.
Bill D

From personal experience, I find this not to be true. People of lower socio-economic backgrounds are no less likely to sue for products liability situations than those of greater means. The contingency system allows even a homeless person to hire the best attorneys if they have a good and legitimate case. People of means are also more likely to have insurance that helps cover direct economic losses and future needs.


If your insurance covers it, build it. How is it any different to you if one of your cabinets falls of the wall and hits a kid, the lawyers will still come after you even if not your fault.

Build in the price money for a rider if need be to add more protection for this job.

While there are some obvious differences on the mechanical side (gates have to move and lock) this job isn't so far removed from stairs and railings in terms of exposure.


I would never suggest someone take on a job without feeling comfortable with the legal exposure. It is always a cost/benefit analysis in business. The value of the commision needs to be weighed against potential exposure which is actually hard to do on a single case basis (vs putting a million of them into the stream of commerce which an actuary can them run statistically significant numbers on). For a small business in a one-off situation, it all really comes down to the gut and for me a lot of that would be the customer themselves.

[Al Launier]

Tell them of your concerns, that you have decided against it, and for them to purchase suitable gates already on the market. Let the big boys handle any potential lawsuits.

[johnny means]

Have you seen the garbage sold as baby gates at Target and Walmart? I wouldn't hesitate to do the job anymore than any other railing application. It seems like all too often we act like children are eggs teetering on the head of a pin.

[Darcy Warner]

Just have them install invisible fence.

[Al Launier]

Just have them install invisible fence.

So funny!!!!!

[Bob Cooper]

Sounds like these customers have lots of extra money to hire lawyers if anything goes wrong. Furthermore I think many rich folks will blame others, and not themselves, if anything goes wrong.
Bill D
i'm pretty well off and know lots of similar folks and i disagree with this characterization.

[Edwin Santos]

That sounds like a really dumb idea. There is no substitute for constantly watching a child. They need a Nanny.

Do you think the clients will appreciate that parenting advice from a contractor who has been requested to simply bid a job?

[Dan Friedrichs]

How is it any different to you if one of your cabinets falls of the wall and hits a kid, the lawyers will still come after you even if not your fault.


There are well-known good building practices for hanging cabinets (ie - screws into studs, cabinet back securely attached to sides, etc). As a cabinet maker, you are likely an expert in how to properly design and build a cabinet to not fall off the wall.

Presumably, however, the OP knows nothing about best design practices around minimizing risks of child entrapment/injury/etc. There are people who know about that. But if you're not one of them...

[Mel Fulks]

As a good guy I am duty bound to " first, do no harm". Not sure I would TELL them what they need. Depends on my
reading of the situation. But I'm not the only one here that would refuse to get involved. I'm pretty sure that the scissors
type gates that are widely used come with a printed warning that the gate must not be depended on to keep a child safe.
I think it says to never leave the child alone. I don't think anyone will accept that job without that warning in the contract.
If they can't accept that then they will probably hire a nanny.

[Richard Wolf]

I spent 30 years building and installing railings. I have had on occasion people ask me to build baby gates to match their railings. I would build the gate after explaining that it wasn't a safety gate, only a deterrent and added a statement on their paperwork and mine that they signed.
Here is what I can tell you; build the gate with all the integrity that you can, it will be pushed, hung on, pulled and slammed. The weakest link will be the latch to keep it closed. I always used two latches so if one was defeated the seconded would slow them down. I never had any problems, fortuitously.

[Mark Wooden]

+1 with Richard Wolf;
I built gates at the tops and bottoms of stair for clients, they were used until the kids( a pair of high speed twins) were old enough to navigate the stairs on their own. Be sure to use good hardware and use latches that an adult has to work at opening,the type that are spring loaded and take two hands.
I did put in writing the gates were not safety devices, no liability for their use was implied, clients signed it and everyone was happy. I removed them for free four years later.

You can get an engineer, lawyers, insurance people involved if you wish, but getting the clients to accept responsibility for their use is what you need to do. If they don't willingly and wholeheartedly agree to that, politely refuse

[John Goodin]

Predicting most accidents is impossible. The unknown risk is much more prevalent than the known risk.

We moved into a two story house with a baby and thought that stairs would be an issue. At 18 months she turned a dog bowl upside down to climb into a window seat, it slide, she broke her arm. I was the only one who fell on the stairs.

The moral of the story is -- make baby gates but don't turn dog bowls.

In the end go with what makes you more comfortable which according to previous post it looks like you are going to pass.

[Bill Space]

...The value of the commission needs to be weighed against potential exposure which is actually hard to do on a single case basis (vs putting a million of them into the stream of commerce which an actuary can them run statistically significant numbers on). For a small business in a one-off situation, it all really comes down to the gut and for me a lot of that would be the customer themselves.

This ^^^^^

What's the chances of something bad happening in a one time situation, versus the exposure one would have if he were to make and sell a million of the same thing?

Too often we apply things we see on the news, that involve millions of opportunities for something to go bad, to something we might do only one time. The odds are not the same. But we somehow feel they are.

I would probably take that job myself if I were in your position.

Van's comment struck home when I read it several days ago. I think he hit the nail on the head.

Might not hurt to add a personal liability rider to your home owners policy as a backup just in case something ever goes wrong for you whatever it might be. Quite cheap actually. (OJ used one for his defense I remember reading, but likely not applicable if you are incorporated)

If you are confident in your ability to produce safe and effective protective barriers why not do it? Would you refrain for doing the same thing for yourself? If so, then best not to do it, but my impression is that you would do the same thing for yourself. So why not do it once for someone else? And turn a bit of profit for yourself.

[Randy Heinemann]

Don't mean this as a facetious answer, but see a lawyer if you want legal advice for your business. A forum is no place to seek legal advice.