Felder AD941 vs Hammer A3 41 and K3 Comfort

[Mark e Kessler]

well the title says it all, I have actually put a deposit on the AD941 and delivery could be as early as Monday but I still cant decide.
I have a furniture background and had a cabinet shop but closed it don on 2002, Am now in mechanical engineering. I just sold my MM FS350 that I have had for about 22 yrs and have an Inca 2200 12" saw that is 25 yrs old and beat. so of course I go for the max my budget allows which is the 941, however the saw will need to be replaced soon and the thought of waiting another 2ish years is killing me. so I was thinking for the close to the 941 money I could get the A3 41 and K3 Comfort and be done with it, just not sure I haven't put any hands on any of these machines I am quite confident that the AD941 will be more than enough however not sure about the quality/fit finish/reliability/accuracy of the hammer and feel the need to touch feel...

Also I have no plans to go back into business as I have a full time job however I do plan on building what I want when I want and selling it. This equipment will be used max 15hrs week avg for the next 20ish years.
My plan was to buy the 941 now and in the next few years a 700 series slider but I gota wonder with the amount of use should I just go with the Hammer option, I get that I will be loosing conveniences but I I going to be missing out on accuracy and longevity?

Any thoughts/comments would be appreciated...Mark

[Jim Becker]

Honestly, while the Hammer line isn't as beefy or "special" as the full Felder tools, you do get a lot for the money. Were I in your position, "door number two" would be pretty compelling since you'd pretty much have your shop set to do real work as an avocation or for some commissions. I know that I don't really need the "beef" of my S315WS slider and could easily be happier with a lighter weight saw, but at the time, the price was right, and it does compliment my FS350 J/P just fine. So my opinion is that unless you have a reason that requires you to buy the heavier AD941, the two Hammer tools for similar money is a good option.

[Brian Holcombe]

For similar money you can buy an FS41ES from Minimax, I’ve had mine for over a year now, treating me well.

[Mark e Kessler]

@brian I did look at the MM, I never got a quote but the list looks higher than the 941which is coming in a little under 11k and seams to have a few more features. Don't get me wrong I loved my FS350 and tonight will be a sad day when it is picked up (I requested visitation rights)

FYI, for the MM $10,500 including delivery with the helical 12-14weeks from Elite

[Brian Holcombe]

Tersa is my preference and I’ve used helical heads too.

Just my opinion but I feel the Minimax is very likely a better machine. Buy from SCM and see what kinda deals they have going right now. They always have something.

[Jim Becker]

I agree with getting a quote from Sam Blasco for direct from SCM to at least have a comparison for pricing, both for the "higher end" J/P and for the two-tool option. Sam's a good guy and I do believe they have some promotions available right now.

Sam Blasco
sam.blasco@scmgroup.com (sblasco@scmgroup.com)
512-931-1962 (tel:512-931-1962) (shop)
512-796-3036 (tel:512-796-3036) (mobile)
866-216-2166 (main office/parts/tech services)

[Patrick Walsh]

I have a ad 941 and it’s a fine enough machine. I did have a small nightmare getting it setup properly and to get Felder to make right on a bad situation. It is good now and cuts great. I say this despite the fact that it does have dips in both tables beyond factory specs. All in all it works as needed but there are a few spots I can edge doint say a 3/4 board on due to the out of flat tables. Run a wide enough board over theses spots and it evens things out.

I also have experience with SCM tools also. A few old shapers. A brand new s500p and brand new class 600 something 24’’ planer. The older Scmi machines are built very well. The newer ones not so much but imop better than Felder.

If I had it to do again my ad941 would be a top of the line SCM combo.

Also my ad941 is helical. I have a Martin t54 “brand new” that is Teresa. I love the helical for hard figured woods. No tear out ever on anything. I love the ease of changing the Teresa on my Martin t54.

My boss has the new 600 series planer with Teresa. I have only run soft maple through it at this point as it’s just got setup last week. It seems very nice but not like Martin nice. The cut is good. I suspect for figured woods I’m still gonna wish it was helical.

Every tool has its place though both Teresa and helical. At work we don’t need helical. At home building random furniture out of exotic hardwoods it’s very nice to have.

Take Brian’s advice!

Don’t buy Hammer anything, just Felder is a gamble imop if your talking. 20-30 hrs a week use. That’s more Scm territory imop.

What not used. You scan get great tools!

[Richard Haislip]

My ad941 and fb510 just got delivered yesterday still setting up hope all is well, looks fantastic so far.

[Albert Lee]

I was in your position considering better JP combo or settle for something less.

in the end I went for the AD951 with their Silent power cutter block. At the time I also considered SCM Nova or FS7 but SCM isnt that accessible down here in New Zealand, I would have to wait 6+ months for an equivalent of AD951, meanwhile Felder agent in NZ is 1.5 mile from where I live... the decision was made before the question came up.

For the money you pay for a Hammer. I think you get better value for money for a fully fledged Felder. Some people have complained about the fence on the Hammer JP.

Panel saw, there is always a lot on the used market, but for a JP combo, if you want spiral cutter block, there arnt many on the used market.

[Derek Cohen]

Honestly, while the Hammer line isn't as beefy or "special" as the full Felder tools, you do get a lot for the money. Were I in your position, "door number two" would be pretty compelling since you'd pretty much have your shop set to do real work as an avocation or for some commissions. I know that I don't really need the "beef" of my S315WS slider and could easily be happier with a lighter weight saw, but at the time, the price was right, and it does compliment my FS350 J/P just fine. So my opinion is that unless you have a reason that requires you to buy the heavier AD941, the two Hammer tools for similar money is a good option.

If Jim had not made this point, then I would have.

As a hobbiest, the Hammer machines I have - K3 slider, N4400 bandsaw, and A3-31 J/P - represent dream machines. I have been building furniture for about 30 years, but managed for most of these years with pretty ordinary stuff (even this is a relative statement). How much beefier does one need ... even for pro work? I know many pros who do not have the level of the Hammer machines. These are damn good machines. Yes, there will always be bigger and heavier, but does the result get better?

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Brian Holcombe]

Depends a lot on what you do, and the volume at which you work and what you ask of the results. My machine has steel rollers, so my minimum depth of cut is about .010”. Fine for my work generally speaking. A Martin with rubber rollers can repeat a cut without showing it on the work (run through twice), it has no minimum you can take a minor cut.

I use an outfeed support when jointing heavy stock, it’s by Aigner and it’s nice but it’s not surfaced cast iron. If you extend the tables out to support heavy and long work then the machine must become significantly heavier to accommodate those tables.

I’ve seen those more permanent type outfeed extensions, however I dont believe that cantilevered aluminum outfeed extensions are doing anything except putting a huge amount of stress on a light machine. I bet if one measured the deflection of the tables under heavy load it would be substantial.

[Izzy Charo]

I have the Hammer K3 Winner, and like it a lot, though I will confess that I was disappointed by a few things; On my Unisaw/Biesemyer I thought the fence actually moved more smoothly, the K3 bounces a bit over the sheet metal panels used to extend the top. And for some reason my K3 fence doesn't have a crosshair, thought I'm sure I could rig something up. I'm a hobbyist, and this is still way, way more saw than I need (or can justify!), but I guess I thought it would look and feel like a "grown-up" Festool, and it doesn't quite. I haven't played with Felder sliders, so don't know if they would be nicer. I'm also thinking about the AD941 to replace by DJ-20 (8 inch) jointer and 15 inch Griz planer...I'm sure the Hammer J/P would be more than adequate, but I love the idea of the motorized table and digital readout. Hope this helps,
Izzy

[John TenEyck]

Do a search and read the horror stories before you choose.

John

[Patrick Walsh]

I suggest the same as John,

[Mark e Kessler]

I have a ad 941 and itÂ’s a fine enough machine. I did have a small nightmare getting it setup properly and to get Felder to make right on a bad situation. It is good now and cuts great. I say this despite the fact that it does have dips in both tables beyond factory specs. All in all it works as needed but there are a few spots I can edge doint say a 3/4 board on due to the out of flat tables. Run a wide enough board over theses spots and it evens things out.

I also have experience with SCM tools also. A few old shapers. A brand new s500p and brand new class 600 something 24Â’Â’ planer. The older Scmi machines are built very well. The newer ones not so much but imop better than Felder.

If I had it to do again my ad941 would be a top of the line SCM combo.

Also my ad941 is helical. I have a Martin t54 “brand new” that is Teresa. I love the helical for hard figured woods. No tear out ever on anything. I love the ease of changing the Teresa on my Martin t54.

My boss has the new 600 series planer with Teresa. I have only run soft maple through it at this point as itÂ’s just got setup last week. It seems very nice but not like Martin nice. The cut is good. I suspect for figured woods IÂ’m still gonna wish it was helical.

Every tool has its place though both Teresa and helical. At work we donÂ’t need helical. At home building random furniture out of exotic hardwoods itÂ’s very nice to have.

Take BrianÂ’s advice!

DonÂ’t buy Hammer anything, just Felder is a gamble imop if your talking. 20-30 hrs a week use. ThatÂ’s more Scm territory imop.

What not used. You scan get great tools!

I think the Hammer is fine just not for me, if I were shopping for asian machines I would probobly choose Hammer.

Also you say Felder is a gamble but above you say its a fine enough machine, which is it?


I would like more details on this “beyond Factory specs” issue is, what is the spec? What did you measure and how and with what what- you never mention this. I work in a plant that works to 5 microns and I can tell you it is very difficult to measure plates correctly without the correct calibrated gauges a CMM and an education in metrology. Not to bash but you are the only one I can find that has a negative experiance with this machine and at the same time I recently saw somewhere that you praised it. It really doesnt matter if there were issues in the beginning if it works great now.

I can tell you I had my MM FS350 for over 20 years had 5 guys using it and after that i used it in my home shop (just sold it for $2300! ) i have had that thing in a basment of an apartment, removed tables once or twice, moved it thousands of miles (twice in fact) and have never ever spent time calibrating it or checking it (aside from squaring the fence) and I made tons of high end furniture with it, hell I was even published in popular woodworking a few times. I also found that a few spots didn’t work so well when jointing 3/4” so I just found another spot, I mean the jointer was 13.75” wide I had plenty of room to get a good result.

Also confused, you have the ad941 and a Martin T54? Why not sell the AD941 and get the T45?

[Mark e Kessler]

Do a search and read the horror stories before you choose.

John


Enlighten me, how about some context to your comment...Hammer, Felder, SCM, there will be horror stories to all of them...

[Mark e Kessler]

For similar money you can buy an FS41ES from Minimax, I’ve had mine for over a year now, treating me well.

Definitely a contender, in the end I went with the ad941

[Mark e Kessler]

Honestly, while the Hammer line isn't as beefy or "special" as the full Felder tools, you do get a lot for the money. Were I in your position, "door number two" would be pretty compelling since you'd pretty much have your shop set to do real work as an avocation or for some commissions. I know that I don't really need the "beef" of my S315WS slider and could easily be happier with a lighter weight saw, but at the time, the price was right, and it does compliment my FS350 J/P just fine. So my opinion is that unless you have a reason that requires you to buy the heavier AD941, the two Hammer tools for similar money is a good option.

I agree with Hammer you get a lot for the money I just think at this point in my life the extra money for the Felder line is worth it in the long run, there are a few little nitpicky things on the Hammer that makes me think that I would end up upgrading in the future, buying the Felder now just means I need to wait a your to buy a slider, I can do that I have lived with my inca 2200 for 25 years one more won’t kill me.

[Mark e Kessler]

Awesome, let us know more!

[marty fretheim]

Do a search and read the horror stories before you choose.

John
I agree with this, but I also suggest you join the Felder and Minimax Yahoo sites. I'd rather learn from thousands of positive and productive things than A few negative things. Very seldom do people post reviews on forums when everything is good. Usually it's venting from a bad experience. I've read a couple ugly posts about both companies, but how many thousands of these machines are out there that are being used every day by satisfied customers.

Are you looking for advice or confirmation on a choice you've already made?

Marty

[Izzy Charo]

With regard to the comment about "horror stories"....wondering if we could have more specifics. I recall a thread about serious problems with an SCM machine delivered damaged, and months of patient work by the owner to get the parts replaced. As someone who owns a Hammer K3, and is considering a Felder machine I'd like to know if Hammer or Felder was also included in the comment...
Thanks,
Izzy

[Mark e Kessler]

I agree with this, but I also suggest you join the Felder and Minimax Yahoo sites. I'd rather learn from thousands of positive and productive things than A few negative things. Very seldom do people post reviews on forums when everything is good. Usually it's venting from a bad experience. I've read a couple ugly posts about both companies, but how many thousands of these machines are out there that are being used every day by satisfied customers.

Are you looking for advice or confirmation on a choice you've already made?

Marty

We are on the same page, when I posted this I was on the path to the 941 but then I was questioning if I really need it because I need to also replace my 25 year old Inca 2200 and buying the 941 would mean I would have to wait for a slider, I am not that involved in this blog stuff much and I thought maybe I could get some objective opinions which i did in addition to noise...

[Mark e Kessler]

Don’t worry about the so called horror stories, all products have them... I would buy euro over asian any day, even though the Hammer has outsourced parts its still better than the asian equivalents. Don’t get me wrong the asian machines have benifits like price point and entry into the world of woodworking...

[John TenEyck]

Enlighten me, how about some context to your comment...Hammer, Felder, SCM, there will be horror stories to all of them...

This is just one: https://forums.woodnet.net/showthread.php?tid=7336269&highlight=minimax

[Brian Holcombe]

On my last order I hired my own shipper to pickup the package at SCM and bought insurance on the order enough to cover the entire machine plus shipping.

SCM replaced the motor on my machine when the brake failed. They air freighted from Italy.

I’ve also found Felder to be quite good. I bought parts for my FD 250 and they when some things were missing they dug through the warehouse to find them.