Tenon Shoulder Question

[JohnM Martin]

Just wondering... do you saw your tenon shoulders right to the line or do you saw close and chisel? If you use a chisel for getting down to the line, do you use a narrow or wide chisel? I'm relatively new to the craft and just wondering about the best way to get good, consistent and repeatable results.

[Steven Mikes]

Just wondering... do you saw your tenon shoulders right to the line or do you saw close and chisel? If you use a chisel for getting down to the line, do you use a narrow or wide chisel? I'm relatively new to the craft and just wondering about the best way to get good, consistent and repeatable results.

I try to saw right to the line. Sometimes it fits right off the saw, but more often it doesn't.
Generally you want to use as wide a chisel as you can for paring to make sure the tenon stays flat.

[Warren Mickley]

First of all, you really want a knife line all the way around the stock. Forty years ago Ian Kirby wrote an article for Fine Woodworking suggesting sawing 1/32 from the knife line and then putting the chisel in the knife line and paring down. If you use a 1 inch chisel, you can pare about a half inch at a time and let the other half of the chisel ride against the surface already pared.

Six months later Frank Klausz wrote in saying Kirby's method required a master craftsman with an extremely sharp chisel "and I beg the beginner to avoid it." I did not think I was a master craftsman or that it was particularly difficult.

Shortly after that I went to just sawing on the knife line, no trough to get started, just sawing. I have used this method ever since and it is the method outlined by Peter Nicholson who was a cabinetmaker in London in the late 1700s.

You could use either method. If you do use the saw and pare method, take some care to get a nice saw cut (even though it will be cut away) so you get practice making a nice uniform cut.

[Mark Rainey]

I use Ian Kirby' method that Warren describes. On wide tenons I will use a shoulder plane to pare to the knife lines. One of these days I may have the courage to saw to the line.

[Phil Gaudio]

After creating a knife line, I pare a little waste to create a trough, and saw. Generally, I am left with some small amount that has to be removed by a shoulder plane or chisel (angle down toward base of tenon).

[Simon MacGowen]

After creating a knife line, I pare a little waste to create a trough, and saw.

Previously, the Kirby method as described by Warren. I believe a few other old guards (Phil Lowes, I think) use the sawing and paring method.

Now, the Hayward method (Woodwork Joints): Knife line + sloping groove (Sellers calls it a knife wall) + sawing to the line (and to depth). In the majority of cases, no more follow-up work is needed. Not even paring. Sellers uses the same technique to cut dado walls.

Try it a few times a day, and in less than a week, you will become a master of Hayward's technique.

Simon

[lowell holmes]

It is a good excuse to buy a shoulder plane.

[Simon MacGowen]

It is a good excuse to buy a shoulder plane.

Agreed, but shoulder planes have a learning curve...which is steeper than that of Hayward's sawing technique for the shoulder work. A shoulder plane, of course, is to be had for handling more than just shoulder work.

Simon

[Charles Guest]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3vhs4hFoLag

https://charteris.net/

[Bill McDermott]

I saw to the knifed line on the wide faces and leave a bit to chisel off on the narrow faces. I also use the chisel to clean up the sawed lines by undercutting a wee bit and making sure the corners are clear.

[Matthew Hartlin]

My processes has been a knifed line all the way around, a small trough to rest the saw in and make the cut. I'm almost always left with sliver of material that is proud of the knife line that I pare with a 1 1/2' chisel every so slightly undercutting into the tenon. I'm personally not a fan of shoulder planes, so I stick with the paring chisel. Top of mind for me as I just cut a bunch of shoulders and it's always pleasing to see a night tight joint.

[Brian Holcombe]

Definetly prefer to cut the line and I teach people to cut the line. Paring is not a flawless process, there is a temptation to undercut. Cutting the shoulder accurately the first time is the best way and short of that just touching up with a wide chisel to your knife marks.

Making big groove with the knife is another spot for error, unless you knife exactly your kerf it will make the saw center itself between the grooves and likely will cut away the knife line and make your part shorter than expected.

[Robert Engel]

I chisel a relief cut like Phil to the line to register the saw against.

If using a chisel I use the widest I can and take small amounts, like 1/8" at a time. Register the chisel against what you've already pared.

I follow up with a narrow chisel (1/2") to put a slight bevel on the shoulder for a tight fit.

No I wouldn't rush out and buy a shoulder plane. For a beginner (and really anyone) IMO a shoulder plane can get you in trouble real fast unless you are quite proficient at using one.

[John Schtrumpf]

...

Now, the Hayward method (Woodwork Joints): Knife line + sloping groove (Sellers calls it a knife wall) + sawing to the line (and to depth). In the majority of cases, no more follow-up work is needed. Not even paring. Sellers uses the same technique to cut dado walls.

...
Simon

That is how I do it.

[Alan Schwabacher]

Partly, it depends on your saw. Frid sharpened all his saw rip so they would cut faster, which is messy for crosscutting. In that case you need to knife the edge and either leave room and pare to the line, or cut the groove to saw in. A sharp crosscut-filed saw can cut cleanly enough that you can just saw to the line. You just need a procedure that works with your tools and skills.

Of course, acquiring more of both can be helpful.

[Prashun Patel]

Challenge yourself to cut to the line. It's more efficient in the long term.

I get my best results when I use tape to mark the the knife edge. That little micro lip of the tape registers the saw nicely and allows you to see the line more clearly than a knife - even on the lightest of woods.

Funny: Neat dovetails and shoulders don't impress me as much as the bravery to try to attempt to saw it perfectly. It's like doing a crossword puzzle in pen.

[Steven Mikes]

By the way Paul Sellers demonstrates another method here using a router plane that I have used a couple times. It takes a little longer but yields really nice results easily.

https://youtu.be/r-08PY3stgo

[Simon MacGowen]

By the way Paul Sellers demonstrates another method here using a router plane that I have used a couple times. It takes a little longer but yields really nice results easily.

https://youtu.be/r-08PY3stgo

His use of the router plane is for the tenon cheeks, not for the shoulders which are what the OP's question is about.

Simon

[lowell holmes]

I have one of these rabbet block plane. It will do the job.
https://www.google.com/search?q=lie+nielsen+block+plane&rlz=1C1UCRO_enUS813US813&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwibvKrc9prfAhVDUKwKHdloAggQ_AUIECgD&biw=1903&bih=921#imgrc=AUOISvRhOLdE3M:]

[Jim Koepke]

Just wondering... do you saw your tenon shoulders right to the line or do you saw close and chisel? If you use a chisel for getting down to the line, do you use a narrow or wide chisel? I'm relatively new to the craft and just wondering about the best way to get good, consistent and repeatable results.

Mine are cut as close as can be. If any paring is to be done, it is done with a wide chisel. Some of my techniques for repeatable results are explained in a build thread about an articulated gate:

https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?262272

Hope this is of help.

jtk

[steven c newman]

Two saws..two cuts..
398591
Shoulder cut ( this was for a rebate for a drawer back)
398592
Second saw for the cheek cut...grain wasn't allowing a chisel to be used..

[JohnM Martin]

Definetly prefer to cut the line and I teach people to cut the line. Paring is not a flawless process, there is a temptation to undercut. Cutting the shoulder accurately the first time is the best way and short of that just touching up with a wide chisel to your knife marks.

Making big groove with the knife is another spot for error, unless you knife exactly your kerf it will make the saw center itself between the grooves and likely will cut away the knife line and make your part shorter than expected.

I think the big knife groove has bitten me in the past and I couldn't figure out what I had done wrong. Thanks, Brian, somehow it makes sense to see it in writing.

[chris carter]

I used to saw off the line, but now I almost always try to do joinery by sawing right to the line. I’ve found there is nothing that has improved my sawing technique more than forcing this upon myself. It’s so much faster and I don’t want to want to waste a third of my life paring down to lines. So I cut the face of the tenon to the line. For the end grain cut, I will usually just take it off with a chisel unless there are serious grain issues involved.

[James Pallas]

I bought this saw specifically to use on this project. It's a Garlick filed 20tpi crosscut. There are 24 sliding dovetails to a miter to catch the beads and 8 mitered dovetails at the corners. It is my favorite for cutting shoulders and I saw to the knife line, no knife wall. I'm not certain but i think the slant pushes the saw a bit back into the shoulder. I also feel that when you add an additional step it risks error. So many times when cutting shoulders you are trying to match parts. If you introduce error you have to recut more than one joint.
Jim

[Dom Campbell]

3 words. Tenon shoulder jig.

Yes its a crutch, but it helps you learn what cutting to the line feels like, and you can phase it out.

Paring for me almost always leads to undesirable results, it can never be as accurate as a saw.

[Simon MacGowen]

3 words. Tenon shoulder jig.

Yes its a crutch,

Jiff Miller's kind of design?

Simon

[Dom Campbell]

Jiff Miller's kind of design?

Simon

Much simpler... an all square block of wood (sized to the work you intend to carry out, useful to have various sizes), with a guide screwed onto one edge, extending below the main block.

You can put a marking knife on the line, slide the jig up to the knife, and then use the jig as a guide to saw at a perfect 90 degrees.

It is a really quick process, and gives more relaible results, especially when I’m out of practice.

[James Pallas]

3 words. Tenon shoulder jig.

Yes its a crutch, but it helps you learn what cutting to the line feels like, and you can phase it out.

Paring for me almost always leads to undesirable results, it can never be as accurate as a saw.

No crutch to it Dom. All methods can come into play. All kinds of guides have been used, miter boxes, shooting boards, paring blocks etc. Guides have been used since day 1.
Jim

[Charles Guest]

Pretty hard to get a light-tight fit on wider joints right off the saw. The slightest little discrepancy in surfacing the mortised piece (don't forget it!), alone, can put it out and this is before you even consider the sawn shoulders. I'm not ashamed to use a shoulder plane to sneak up on a good fit, and I don't think I'm alone based on the profusion of these made in the last couple hundred years or so. The British, Scottish, and Irish brands, and models within brands, by themselves are dizzying enough. Somebody must have used them, the crowd claiming "not to have used XYZ Tool since the 1970s" (or however it goes) notwithstanding. Perhaps the difference can be chalked up to fine English cabinetmaking vs. comparatively rough Colonial reproductions.

Otherwise, these tools are kind of like Miltown, "mommy's little helper" from the 1960s, so convenient and effective they're just a bit addictive.

Of course the tool is run in from both edges if necessary (sometimes you just need to resolve a bump or swale in the middle of the shoulder resulting from a slight imperfection in the saw plate, or a mis-set tooth or two). It never makes a spelching exit cut at all. That argument against their efficacy is a nonstarter and a misunderstanding of how the tool is used 99% of the time. It's for tidying up, not remodeling. The tissue removed would melt between slightly sweaty thumb and forefinger. If you're removing bulk, something has gone awry. Keep the honing angle low, on this already low-angle tool.

[JohnM Martin]

Pretty hard to get a light-tight fit on wider joints right off the saw. The slightest little discrepancy in surfacing the mortised piece (don't forget it!), alone, can put it out and this is before you even consider the sawn shoulders. I'm not ashamed to use a shoulder plane to sneak up on a good fit, and I don't think I'm alone based on the profusion of these made in the last couple hundred years or so. The British, Scottish, and Irish brands, and models within brands, by themselves are dizzying enough. Somebody must have used them, the crowd claiming "not to have used XYZ Tool since the 1970s" (or however it goes) notwithstanding.

Kind of like Miltown, "mommy's little helper" from the 1960s, so convenient and effective they're just a bit addictive.

Of course the tool is run in from both edges if necessary (sometimes you just need to resolve a bump or swale in the middle of the shoulder resulting from a slight imperfection in the saw plate). It never makes a spelching exit cut at all. That argument against their efficacy is a nonstarter and a misunderstanding of how the tool is used 99% of the time. It's for tidying up, not remodeling. The tissue removed would melt between slightly sweaty thumb and forefinger. If you're removing bulk, something has gone awry.


That is exactly what I have been doing. Any tips to avoid blow out when using a shoulder plane? I have been working from both sides towards the middle which seems to work for me, but always requires 'fiddling' to get it dead flat the entire way.

[Charles Guest]

It never (or very rarely) makes an exiting cut. The cutter needs to be the sharpest in your kit, and set to take the barest amount of tissue. You should be able to tune the joint by planning in from both edges. And the cutter projection should be the same on each side - basically a whisker. If your cutter is not, remove material on a fine honing stone until it is. Use the rule from a quality combo square to check flatness of the shoulders. Check the flatness of the surface of the mortised piece in the immediate area of the joint before you do a bloody thing to the tenon's shoulders. It may be that one (or a few) very light passes on the mortised piece will resolve the fit. ALWAYS CHECK THE MORTISED WORKPIECE FIRST for flat. Your shoulders could be perfect and the issue is with the mating workpiece. You can plane the slightest of hollows over the mortise with the curved cutter in your smoothing plane set for the absolute finest shaving it can possibly take (a bowed scraper works here too). This may bring all to truth without even fooling with the tenon's shoulders.

Why is the board's spell checker changing plan*ing to planning?

[James Pallas]

I have a shoulder plane, medium LN. I really hate to use it but on occasion I find it helpful. I always feel like I've screwed up when I get it out for shoulder work. To prevent spelching don't run off the end or put a back up scrap on the end. The reason I hate it is because to be effective you have to reset the plane to change directions. Plenty of extra effort. The one thing that has helped my shoulder work over the years is to remember on the front side cut to the line and on the back side take the line. I believe that most people use a shoulder plane on the checks and not shoulders. The reason for my belief is all the suggestions seem to point to large shoulder planes. When is the last time you cut a tenon with a 1 1/4" shoulders? Saw it, clean the saw fuzz off with a sharp chisel, cut the back short a bit, and hope for the best.
Jim

[Simon MacGowen]

No crutch to it Dom. All methods can come into play. All kinds of guides have been used, miter boxes, shooting boards, paring blocks etc. Guides have been used since day 1.
Jim

Find me a woodworker who does not use a "crutch" (a ruler) to draw straight lines or one who uses the Pythagorean Theorem instead of a "crutch" (a square) to square up a small box, and I will show you a true woodworker who uses no crutches in his or her work.

Simon

[James Pallas]

Find me a woodworker who does not use a "crutch" (a ruler) to draw straight lines or one who uses the Pythagorean Theorem instead of a "crutch" (a square) to square up a small box, and I will show you a true woodworker who uses no crutches in his or her work.

Simon

Spoon carvers:p
Jim

[Simon MacGowen]

That is exactly what I have been doing. Any tips to avoid blow out when using a shoulder plane? I have been working from both sides towards the middle which seems to work for me, but always requires 'fiddling' to get it dead flat the entire way.

Many things can go wrong if you can't get it flat: uneven force - you apply too much downward force on the back when you start (this is a common mistake even when people use a bench plane); the blade not properly set; uneven number of strokes made; etc. Try this: pencil mark the cheek before you plane, and check the mark after each stroke. Remark as necessary to guide your planing.

In my earlier comment, I called the shoulder plane a tool with a steep learning curve for a good reason. It is both a misunderstood and underused tool. I have seen people use a shoulder plane with overlapping strokes on the cheeks (because the plane is narrower than the cheek is wide), and that's incorrect. You even see it illustrated in that manner in a recent FW article! (Don't trust everything you see published.)

Simon

[michael langman]

This is an excellent post. It really gets into the nuances of achieving a perfect mortice and tenon joint.
I am almost at that point of sawing the tenons in my work bench stretchers, and will use my tenon saw to attempt the almost perfect joint.
Thanks Guys.

[Charles Guest]

I'll just repeat for emphasis -- don't try to fit shoulders to a relatively poorly planed (or chopped) mortised workpiece. Check it first. It has to be dead flat, to one whispy shaving hollow around the mortise. If you try to fit the shoulders to a bump (it doesn't have to be big at all) near the mortise where a shoulder will touch, it'll drive you nuts and take forever. You have to know what's out -- the shoulders or the mortised workpiece. The tool doesn't necessarily have a steep learning curve (though some in this thread do seem confused about how to use one), but fitting the joint at its final stages and understanding what to do and in what order most definitely does.

The mortise could also have been chopped at an angle creating a 'hard-side' and a profound shoulder gap that has nothing to do with the shoulders being off at all. They could be perfect and there'd still be a gap big enough to stick a No. 2 pencil lead in.

This video will help:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XhtD14Qn5pM

Fixing the shoulders, in this instance, won't fix the bigger problem but just assures the unit will go up with twist but with closed, cosmetically perfect shoulders. That's a fail, in case you didn't know it.

This, of course, doesn't apply to those boffins who've never chopped a mortise at anything but 90* EXACTLY to the face. Listen closely to his acknowledgement near the end of the video that chopping them off-vertical does happen, and this is a more honest assessment of real workshop conditions as opposed to posturing on a forum about joints that ALWAYS fit straight from saw and chisel with no need for adjustment ("I haven't had to adjust a mortise and tenon joint since 1974" and all that garbage). When you read something like that, run, don't walk. It's bull$hit. You need a plan to fix the joint, rather than remake one or even two workpieces with an equally likely chance of having the same issues as the ones presently on the bench. Chippendale, Seddon, Sheraton, Gimson, et al. all fixed and adjusted little and not-so-little discrepancies along the way in everything they built. Nobody cuts every joint on every project perfectly.

[JohnM Martin]

I'll just repeat for emphasis -- don't try to fit shoulders to a relatively poorly planed (or chopped) mortised workpiece. Check it first. It has to be dead flat, to one whispy shaving hollow around the mortise. If you try to fit the shoulders to a bump (it doesn't have to be big at all) near the mortise where a shoulder will touch, it'll drive you nuts and take forever. You have to know what's out -- the shoulders or the mortised workpiece. The tool doesn't necessarily have a steep learning curve (though some in this thread do seem confused about how to use one), but fitting the joint at its final stages and understanding what to do and in what order most definitely does.

The mortise could also have been chopped at an angle creating a 'hard-side' and a profound shoulder gap that has nothing to do with the shoulders being off at all. They could be perfect and there'd still be a gap big enough to stick a No. 2 pencil lead in.

This video will help:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XhtD14Qn5pM

Fixing the shoulders, in this instance, won't fix the bigger problem but just assures the unit will go up with twist but with closed, cosmetically perfect shoulders. That's a fail, in case you didn't know it.

This, of course, doesn't apply to those boffins who've never chopped a mortise at anything but 90* EXACTLY to the face. Listen closely to his acknowledgement near the end of the video that chopping them off-vertical does happen, and this is a more honest assessment of real workshop conditions as opposed to posturing on a forum about joints that ALWAYS fit straight from saw and chisel with no need for adjustment ("I haven't had to adjust a mortise and tenon joint since 1974" and all that garbage). When you read something like that, run, don't walk. It's bull$hit. You need a plan to fix the joint, rather than remake one or even two workpieces with an equally likely chance of having the same issues as the ones presently on the bench. Chippendale, Seddon, Sheraton, Gimson, et al. all fixed and adjusted little and not-so-little discrepancies along the way in everything they built. Nobody cuts every joint on every project perfectly.

This is a great point. I think I've often focused on fixing the tenons to get a cosmetically pleasing "tight" fit just assuming the mortise piece to be flat. Good advice.

[Simon MacGowen]

This is a great point. I think I've often focused on fixing the tenons to get a cosmetically pleasing "tight" fit just assuming the mortise piece to be flat. Good advice.

To check the mortise (narrow) walls for squareness and flatness, this kind of narrow square is helpful: http://www.starrett.com/metrology/product-detail/Special-Squares/Squares/Precision-Hand-Tools/Precision-Measuring-Tools/14D

Some people make something similar with a block, or buy such a square from Lee Valley or Sterling.

Simon

[James Pallas]

A couple of things you probably already have in your shop to help with M&T tasks. Blue tape or masking tape extended past the mortise with a pencil line to give you a gun sight for square. A 12" rule inside the mortise to check for plumb. The slide on a folding rule to check depth, easy just extend the slide and push down don't have to look until you get it to eye level. If you really want to scare yourself, put a compass behind the steel rule to see how good you are:). Hope some find this helpful.
Jim

[Eric Rathhaus]

Or a woodworker who never finishes any projects :)