Chris Swarz surfaced at Highland Woodworking.

[lowell holmes]

I wondered what happened and he left Lee Valley.
I logged on to Highland woodworking and an article he wrote popped up.
While on a trip that passed through Atlanta, I visited their store.

[Jessica de Boer]

I've heard of this guy before, can't remember where. I don't mean to belittle what he does but has the man ever worked in an actual production environment with dead lines that have to be kept? It's easy to make nice pieces of furniture when you have loads of time but doing it under time pressure is another thing.

[William Adams]

Working as a writer doesn't pay much --- he's mentioned doing furniture commissions, and folks usually won't wait forever on that, and of course, the faster one can make things, the more one will earn.

[lowell holmes]

He was at Popular Woodworking Magazine. The magazine kind of fell apart after he left. It is coming back now.
I always enjoyed his articles. If you read his articles you will probably learn a bit.

[Stew Denton]

Magazines, etc., have publishing deadlines which means he not only had to get projects done by a certain date, he also had to have the article written.

Stew

[Hasin Haroon]

Does it matter if he worked in a production environment? He’s found his own niche - he studies historical techniques and equipment and teaches how to incorporate those into modern woodworking. He also started a publishing company that publishes some of the best woodworking related content available currently.

[William Fretwell]

I read one of his articles today from a while back, opinionated nonsense! Several comments also thought so. Sadley that just helps to sell magazines.

[Tony Zaffuto]

I've heard of this guy before, can't remember where. I don't mean to belittle what he does but has the man ever worked in an actual production environment with dead lines that have to be kept? It's easy to make nice pieces of furniture when you have loads of time but doing it under time pressure is another thing.

His company "Lost Arts Press", does a spuberb job on reprinting of vintage woodworking & trade books (for example, books by Hayward and Wearing). In my opinion, that is his true talent.

[Doug Hepler]

I happen to admire Chris as a craftsman, scholar, teacher and editor. Since when do we dismiss someone's opinion because he's not a production woodworker? That lets most of us right out of consideration, doesn't it? SMC might as well fold if we all have to meet deadlines to quality. For that matter, since when should we dismiss any knowledge or opinion based on its source? That's a fundamental fallacy. It takes all kinds of animals to make a zoo and all kinds of craftspersons to make a craft.

Doug

[William Fretwell]

Just bought two wood books from Lost Art Press. Hardback and very well produced. Looking forward to reading them.

[Pete Taran]

Doug,

Haters love to hate. It's what they do. Seems like the way of the world these days, find someone who has become successful at something, or anything, and then hate them for it. One of the gifts from the social media crowd if you ask me.


I happen to admire Chris as a craftsman, scholar, teacher and editor. Since when do we dismiss someone's opinion because he's not a production woodworker? That lets most of us right out of consideration, doesn't it? SMC might as well fold if we all have to meet deadlines to quality. For that matter, since when should we dismiss any knowledge or opinion based on its source? That's a fundamental fallacy. It takes all kinds of animals to make a zoo and all kinds of craftspersons to make a craft.

Doug

[Bill McDermott]

We are gathered here to share in the practice of hand tool woodworking. I read Chris's blog and own a few of his books. I consider Chris to be one of the most effective living advocates of our practice. And his productivity is truly remarkable. Me...? hobbyist with nary a deadline. Dang glad for pro's like him (and many of you) who share so much insight and knowledge.

[Simon MacGowen]

Chris Swarz surfaced at Highland Woodworking.

He is Chris Schwarz. It always surprises me why so many people also misspell his last name as Schwartz.

Simon

[lowell holmes]

I will take note of the correct spelling. I bet he is glad to be recognized regardless of how we spell his name.:)

[ken hatch]

Sure he has been on the wrong side of some things but he has also changed when shown new info. BTW, I'd love to see the work and production of C.S.'s distractors. Show me the beef, then I'll take you seriously. C.S. not only can talk the talk he also walks the walk.

How's that for employing a bunch of cliches in one sentence. Damn Bubba you do good work.

ken

[James Pallas]

C.S. Is a smart man. He knows just how to keep his name up there on top. Knows just how to change horses to get the brass ring. Good woodworker to boot.
Jim

[Rob Luter]

I've met Chris a couple times and he seems to be a pretty likable guy. What's his role at Highland Woodworking?

[lowell holmes]

I was in error on my post. Chris is at Popular Woodworking.
https://www.popularwoodworking.com/chris-schwarz-blog/

[Tony Corey]

Many of the questions asked here have been answered by Chris at his blog at Lost Art Press.

From his blog:
His relationship with Popular Woodworking will end at the end of this month.
He was asked to adapt a speech he gave to an article for the Highland Woodworking newsletter.

TonyC

[William Adams]

Actually, that is winding down and will be over soon:

https://www.popularwoodworking.com/woodworking-blogs/the-beginning-of-the-end-of-this-weblog/

[James Waldron]

I was in error on my post. Chris is at Popular Woodworking.
https://www.popularwoodworking.com/chris-schwarz-blog/

You're running a bit behind. Not entirely wrong for another three weeks, but close: He left PW as managing editor a couple of years ago; as a contributor to an in-house PW blog, his involvement is scheduled to end at the end of this year. We don't know if his accumulated blog posts at PW will remain there or not. Apparently he currently is being courted by other woodworking magazines, including at least FWW. Or maybe that's a tease.

PW has fallen into the hands of evil bean counters and is in a serious decline, rapidly dedicating their efforts to wet-nursing newbies and outsourcing to largely unedited, inexperienced and semi-skilled writers who demean themselves by writing about how to saw straight and how to nail a rabbet joint. Not much content left for those of us who already chop mortises and dovetail corners.

Love him or hate him, CS keeps you coming back for more. Just what a magazine needs in today's paper-based economy. Good for them, good for him and, if he makes you think, good for you.

I don't agree with him on everything, but he darn sure makes me stop and think before I disagree. A lot of the time, he even makes me think before I agree. In both cases, it's good for me. I should think sometimes, according to Dr. Grandma.

[Jake Rothermel]

Show me someone anyone of us agrees with ALL THE TIME and I'll show you a mirror...

[Phil Gaudio]

I've learned an awful lot from Chris Schwarz and I think we are lucky to have him as a teacher.

[lowell holmes]

I just subscribed to the magazine again and the first issue came today. I'm a bit disappointed in it.
Oh well, maybe I will enjoy future issues.
I'm sure keeping woodworking magazine interesting is a challenge to say the least.

[Steve Southwood]

Fish much?


I've heard of this guy before, can't remember where. I don't mean to belittle what he does but has the man ever worked in an actual production environment with dead lines that have to be kept? It's easy to make nice pieces of furniture when you have loads of time but doing it under time pressure is another thing.

[Jason Lester]

I don't always agree with him, but he does nice work, gives back to the hand tool community, and writes and publishes excellent books. How many of us have a Roubo bench, a dovetailed tool chest, etc.? He didn't invent any of that, but certainly made it popular again.

[Tyler A Anderson]

I like the Schwarz. I have read many of his books, and learn a lot from them. I would love to take one of his classes in the future just for the experience of meeting him and his crew who all seem to do good work too.

He is one of the few that puts his money where his mouth is. Don’t like your job, quit and start your own company. Don’t like some tools out there? Start your own tool company. That’s what he has done and it’s takes a lot of guts. I think we are lucky to have him.

[Sanford Levy]

I am currently reading Chris Schwarz's edition of Moxon's 17th century The Art of Joinery. It is part of Moxon's Mechanick Exercises. It includes Chris's comments on the text. I am also reading the 19th century The Joiner and the Cabinet Maker which he put out with Joel Moskowitz from toolsforworkingwood.com. This is a sort of introduction to the life of an apprentice joiner with a lot of detail about how joiners worked at that time. Chris actually reproduces, in the second half of the book, the projects described in the book. Both are from Schwarz's Lost Arts Press. I appreciate his (and Moskowitz's) historical interests and have learned from both of them.

[Allen Read]

... I don't agree with him on everything, but he darn sure makes me stop and think before I disagree. A lot of the time, he even makes me think before I agree....

Well written James! CS is an interesting guy with much to offer.

Allen

[david charlesworth]

I think those people on the first page, who do not even know what he does, (or how to spell hid name), should keep their opinions to themselves.

Chris is a great asset to the woodworking community IMO.

David Charlesworth

[lowell holmes]

David,:)
Is "hid name" miss-spelled?

[david charlesworth]

Yes...….

I don't get on well with reply machine !

David

[lowell holmes]

https://www.highlandwoodworking.com/sharpening/christopherschwarzhandtools.html



I guess he is at Popular Woodworking site as well.

https://videos.popularwoodworking.com/courses/mastering-hand-tools-with-christopher-schwarz-part-01-why-use-hand-tools?k=56wVtY%2Fut%2Bfjq1p9ruFWCKNqW3mOLe3EXNE0tz wxDQg%3D&utm_medium=email&utm_source=newsletter&utm_campaign=pwt-rfa-nl-181214-versB

[Derek Cohen]

I think those people on the first page, who do not even know what he does, (or how to spell hid name), should keep their opinions to themselves.

Chris is a great asset to the woodworking community IMO.

David Charlesworth

I agree, David.

Each generation has its heroes. It is not simply what they taught that made an impression. It was how they taught, and how this inspired a love of woodworking.

I recall Norm very fondly, although I could possibly teach him a thing or two now about handwork. It was not his expertise that stirred me, but his passion, and that he led by example, as does Chris. Many here may also not be aware of the many articles you wrote for Furniture and Cabinetmaking all those years back (20?). They are now collected in your books. I found them wonderful, and still do. I also like that you have never stopped learning .... and demonstrating that, indeed, we old dogs can learn new tricks! :)

I not only like Chris as a teacher and appreciate his blogs and books (and humour!) - I must emphasise that it is not always the last word in technique that one should seek out (there are a number of other woodworkers out their that I might recommend for technique, per se) - but I deeply respect what he has done to foster passion in so many for the craft we share. To inspire others is a wonderful gift, and I hope that this generation recognises this, and appreciates what Chris has done over the past 15 or so years.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Van Huskey]

I agree with a lot of the praise The Schwarz is getting in this thread, he is the only thing that made me pop into the PW website a couple of times a month to read his blog. His interests didn't always align with mine ie campaign furniture but I usually came away with a nugget I was happy to have found. The LAP books are almost certain to be the biggest part of his woodworking legacy. One thing I like about Chris is that I get to watch his arc. He is very much in the discovery and experimentation phase of his life (some never leave it which I think is good) and I think it makes for more compelling reading and thought.

[Jessica de Boer]

It was not his expertise that stirred me, but his passion, and that he led by example, as does Chris.

My heroes are my father and a shipwright in the Netherlands. Both have inspired me greatly and both have taught many apprentices who made successful careers for themselves or started their own companies. Giving someone a solid foundation so they can make a living doing what they love to do (I'm one of them) is how you put your stamp on the craft. But that's just my opinion.

[Vincent Tai]

My heroes are my father and a shipwright in the Netherlands. Both have inspired me greatly and both have taught many apprentices who made successful careers for themselves or started their own companies. Giving someone a solid foundation so they can make a living doing what they love to do (I'm one of them) is how you put your stamp on the craft. But that's just my opinion.

Jessica,
I think Chris has created a deposit of information that gives quite the foothold for the amateur and gives inspiration for people of all sorts to do woodworking. Perhaps not as high an honour as the master to apprentice cycle but Chris' work accumulating knowledge and creating something that publishes that knowledge once again is important. Certainly puts bits of the craft into paper. We may be uncomfortable with woodworking "celebrities" (at least the live ones) but reach has become important. the Schwarz is a hub, and amateur work is important to - well, amateurs. Great masters and formally trained craftsman are important to that continuity of itself and the higher echelons of the craft, hubs like Chris are important to a more widespread and "casual" crowd. His work to keep some great teachings in print and accessible through discussion and online blogging is important not just to the amateur but the entire craft. The world of woodworking has changed. I would bet Chris' work has at least opened doors and the eyes of a few of my generation and younger to good work and hand tools. Maybe some of them will go on to be the next generation of masters. Without easily accessible resources through the web I wouldn't really know of the existence of these levels of woodworking, about the masters, woodworking in other continents, etc. The first door opens many, allows you to dive into a vast network of information. My first door was my shop teacher, but without some other hubs I might still be viewing woodworking as a fun time on the belt sander and drill press making record time (record in my school) CO2 powered mini dragsters. I went from that to cutting dovetails, refinishing tables, getting sick from lacquer in a few months time. Another year and I was making six times more dovetail boxes then any other kid, spending much time holed up in my basement staying up at night varnishing jewelry boxes. Setting alarms at night so I could run downstairs bleary eyed to denib and brush another coat on. A few months later and I was shellacking and French polishing, cutting Japanese joinery, became a hand plane nut, even a nut for making them. By my last year of high school I was holed up in the small metal work corner of the wood shop at school trying to create infill planes with knowledge from stalking Bill Carter and Konrad Sauer's blogs. Ive gone off the rails a little here but I guess my point is the Schwarz is a hub - a very big hub of quality info, very important as all the different nodes and hubs of similar quality and discussion are close by. That's important in my books, and I think Schwarz has stamped his name in the craft's history; but I'm a nobody who still can't make anything sellable.

[Jessica de Boer]

I guess I look at wood working from a professional point of view and by extension at people like Swarz. I fully realise that many of the members are hobbyist wood workers and the way they view and experience the craft is completely different from mine.

[Mark Maleski]

I've heard of this guy before, can't remember where. I don't mean to belittle what he does but has the man ever worked in an actual production environment with dead lines that have to be kept?

Yes, he certainly does. As a toolmaker and publisher. With furniture too (he takes commissions but it’s only part of his production). I agree with you that it wouldn’t be belittling if the answer was “no.” His craftsmanship and ability to unearth and then teach traditional techniques remain top notch either way.

[Warren Mickley]

I think those people on the first page, who do not even know what he does, (or how to spell hid name), should keep their opinions to themselves.

Chris is a great asset to the woodworking community IMO.

David Charlesworth

I disagree on both points.

I cannot remember another time when someone was told to keep their opinions to themselves just because someone disagreed with them.

[Kory Cassel]

I disagree on both points.

I cannot remember another time when someone was told to keep their opinions to themselves just because someone disagreed with them.
About three weeks ago on the disston no 12 thread!:D

[Mark Maleski]

I disagree on both points.

I cannot remember another time when someone was told to keep their opinions to themselves just because someone disagreed with them.

But your opinion is an informed one. I understood David to be objecting to blind criticism from posters who appear to know so little about the subject. (Which, when you consider it, is ironic given the criticism they are leveling.)

at at any rate, this is a woodworking forum, so uninformed criticism is to be expected. :rolleyes:

[Jessica de Boer]

Chris is a great asset to the woodworking community IMO.

The English speaking wood working community you mean. There are scores of skilled craftsmen and women in non-English speaking countries who have never heard of him... or you for that matter. That is not meant as an insult but the wood working "community" as you call it is larger than you think. It doesn't consist of a few forums and youtube channels. What Swarz does and his opinions are not nearly as important as you think they are.

[Derek Cohen]

I disagree on both points.

I cannot remember another time when someone was told to keep their opinions to themselves just because someone disagreed with them.

I believe that you have misinterpreted David's comment, Warren. He was simply disagreeing with those who had dismissed Chris Schwarz on the basis of prejudice.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Frederick Skelly]

I guess I look at wood working from a professional point of view and by extension at people like Swarz. I fully realise that many of the members are hobbyist wood workers and the way they view and experience the craft is completely different from mine.

Yes, your viewpoint is bound to be different as a professional. I respect that, and I have admired the pictures of the beautiful work you do. As a hobbyist, I enjoy Schwartz's books, blogs and articles. His work is very readable, probably because he is a journalist by training, As others have said, I dont agree with everything he says. But I don't agree with everything my Mother says either. :)

Fred

[Frederick Skelly]

Actually, that is winding down and will be over soon:

https://www.popularwoodworking.com/woodworking-blogs/the-beginning-of-the-end-of-this-weblog/

That held a number of truths!

[Kory Cassel]

The English speaking wood working community you mean. There are scores of skilled craftsmen and women in non-English speaking countries who have never heard of him... or you for that matter. That is not meant as an insult but the wood working "community" as you call it is larger than you think. It doesn't consist of a few forums and youtube channels. What Swarz does and his opinions are not nearly as important as you think they are.
The ability to inspire should not be underestimated.

In my area there is really no recourse to a hand tool apprenticeship, so we are self taught for the most part. Books that can fire your imagination and get you up and moving towards your goals are a vital part of my own foray into hand work. If the language barrier prevents his work from being more widespread, that's a shame as I find his writing funny and engaging.

The technical expertise is one thing, being able to get people interested in the craft is another.:)

[William Fretwell]

Jessica there is a lot of truth in what you say. I admire your professional viewpoint as mine is that of a serious hobbyist!
One example you may relate to is a boat builder called Gozzard Yachts about 100 km north of me in Goderich. They build old fashioned full keel heavy cruisers. The wood work inside is stellar, absolutely gorgeous! Mike Gozzard who owns the place is one of the nicest down to earth people I’ve ever met. I went up for a tour of his shop (another story) and was shocked. His benches were very old, badly worn and crude. His tools old and basic. The lighting was poor, you would think you just went back 100 years.

Clearly his world of wood is an island unto itself. It will look the same in 20 years. They follow no trends, seemingly talk to no-one. It makes you realise the beautiful product is a result of the skill of the craftsmen. I found this quite intimidating as an amateur!

So yes the world of wood is very varied and disconnected. Those of us ‘riding the wave’ are equally disconnected. Our wave spotters are just that.

The few productive craftsmen with a lifetime of achievement who reach out to educate are revered, but there are remarkably few of them. There are many, many more who only educate by association.

[Adam Petersen]

I think Chris came along at the right time with the right skills, i.e. marketing, internet and writing. His woodworking is good but any number of hobbyists on this forum could match his work. What most have lacked is the innovation to stay current and to spread the message. Like Norm with television, Chris has embraced all that the internet has to offer for spreading his word, networking, and teaching. 30 years ago what he has done would have been impossible. Timing and innovation has been his best friend.

Jessica, you bring up an interesting point about those woodworkers outside the English speaking realm who are big in their countries. Does anyone know of any? It is unfortunate, in my own opinion, that there are probably hundreds of other woodworkers who do not or cannot reach us because of language barriers. I'd be curious who the Christopher Schwarz of Russia, Japan or China is (to name a few).

[James Waldron]

I think those people on the first page, who do not even know what he does, (or how to spell hid name), should keep their opinions to themselves.

Chris is a great asset to the woodworking community IMO.

David Charlesworth

So you are for stamping out "foot-in-mouth" disease? I think CS would prefer free speech and just skip over such blather.

Truth will out. As it has done here with later posts. Maybe a few will have learned something and gone to see what CS is all about. Some of those may learn to value his contributions. Push-back against the uninformed views of such character is sometimes worthwhile.

[Matt Lau]

First off, Jessica is a pro.
I think she posted some of her work earlier in the year, and it was glorious.
I think I posted something about her husband being a lucky man.

Secondly, Chris is not the best woodworker by a long shot...but a good writer, likable dude, and introduction to woodworking to hobbyists like me.
Thus, a number of us hold him in high regard.

I only wish him well.

[Jessica de Boer]

And to add to that, on a medium that was wholly invented and promoted by America, namely the internet. Sorry if we are too proud for some, but we've done our fair share to advance humanity.

Without Tim Berners-Lee, born in London, there would be no internet as we know it today (internet is not the correct term, what you see is the World Wide Web). Berners-Lee invented the hyperlink while working at CERN in Switzerland as a way to share and update information between users. Later he further developed it into the World Wide Web which are hyperlinks that run on the internet. While the internet, the backbone, is an invention by the US army the World Wide Web that runs on it is invented by a Brit. Maybe you should know what you're talking about before making false claims.

[Pete Taran]

Jessica,

You crack me up. A few facts for those following along. Linking of computers was actually started by DARPA and called ARPANET, which was not the US Army all the way back in the 1960s. The internet was already fully underway and commercialized in 1989 with 500,000 Compuserve users long before Lee ever developed the first web browser. While revisionist history is great fun, you might take some of your own advice. I fully expect next to hear it was not the US military that won WWII, and The Wright Brothers were in fact born in Belgium!

BTW, there were some of us active on the old usenet forums. A great schism occurred in the early 90s when all the hand tool users left rec.ww and started the oldtools listserve, still active today.

Happy surfing!

[Kory Cassel]

Without Tim Berners-Lee, born in London, there would be no internet as we know it today (internet is not the correct term, what you see is the World Wide Web). Berners-Lee invented the hyperlink while working at CERN in Switzerland as a way to share and update information between users. Later he further developed it into the World Wide Web which are hyperlinks that run on the internet. While the internet, the backbone, is an invention by the US army the World Wide Web that runs on it is invented by a Brit. Maybe you should know what you're talking about before making false claims.
There would be less demand for fine quality hand tools in the English speaking woodworking community today without Chris Schwarz. The resulting mass market forces stimulate production of more and varied types of hand tools and that is to the decided benefit all traditional woodworking regardless of which country invented the internet or reads English books. Even us naive American hobbyists who enjoy Schwarz' books in English add to the whole.:)

[Frederick Skelly]

While the internet, the backbone, is an invention by the US army the World Wide Web that runs on it is invented by a Brit. Maybe you should know what you're talking about before making false claims.

Stick to woodworking Jessica. You have skills, knowledge and training there.

The hyperlink is a follow-on development made possible by earlier work done Stateside. That's how science and engineering works - we all stand on the shoulders of the giants who came before us.

[Vincent Tai]

Jessica,

You crack me up. A few facts for those following along. Linking of computers was actually started by DARPA and called ARPANET, which was not the US Army all the way back in the 1960s. The internet was already fully underway and commercialized in 1989 with 500,000 Compuserve users long before Lee ever developed the first web browser. While revisionist history is great fun, you might take some of your own advice. I fully expect next to hear it was not the US military that won WWII, and The Wright Brothers were in fact born in Belgium!

BTW, there were some of us active on the old usenet forums. A great schism occurred in the early 90s when all the hand tool users left rec.ww and started the oldtools listserve, still active today.

Happy surfing!

Pete,
Pete you are correct in that the USA invented the internet quite independently. I think you misunderstand Jessica greatly, and have mixed up the internet and world wide web. Linking of computers (internet's job) is not the world wide web. You are correct that the internet was well established during the 80s and we have the USA and its enormously deep pockets to thank for that. And many thanks I give.

I don't see where Jessica is wrong. She's actually spot on for this one. I don't think you're realizing how the Internet is not the world wide web. 500000 users of a computer network, vs a computer network that has the world wide web, Lee and his work certainly important (understatement). Without him.... Also Paul Baran had envisioned the Internet (well the first network and idea that serves as the layout to the internet) as a communications method capable of surviving a Soviet strike. His ideas were thrown away by the military and AT&T. The USA could've had internet a little bit earlier... ARPA and Bob Taylor were definitely brilliant though. That being said, Donald Davies of Britain had the same ideas as Bob Taylor and put himself to work before learning about the existence of Bob Taylor's.

The Internet and the world wide web are two separate things. I cannot stress this enough. Often the Internet is used wrongly to describe the world wide web. "the Internet is toxic," etc. Linking of computers with routers is the internet. A physical structure. A collection of IPs that allow smaller networks to communicate to form the massive network which we call the Internet. The world wide web is an information haven, collection of , network that uses a network called the Internet. Take the world wide web away and we would suffer greatly would be an understatement. Take the internet away and we would suffer greatly is also an understatement.

We can go back to the age of ARPA's Bob Taylor's ARAPNET and the following decade. You can link your computer to others and many others. perhaps make more computers, give everyone in third world countries one. But no World wide web allowed. Then what? What would you do? Email is allowed. Big plus, wholly American made too but just think about how much of your email's content is reliant on the world wide web. The world wide web made the internet relevant to a normal everyday person. The internet is mostly used for email and browsing the world wide web today.

Lee invented the world's first website. The first browser. Of course an American institution made the mosaic browser which allowed for a turning point in the world wide web. But without his inventions and CERN releasing the web free to use and without proprietary constraints things in the world might look very different today. just imagine no www. I think we can give quite a bit of credit to Tim Lee for his important work. I know that all tech giants in the US would do the same.

[Pete Taran]

Vincent,

Forgive me, but I meant the internet which is why I used that term to start with. I understand that the internet is the physical infrastructure that carries world wide web traffic. Copper, fiber, switches, routers, etc. I never made any mention of the WWW, others did. My facts are also not incorrect about email starting before there was a WWW.

I'm also not disputing Lee's contribution. Having said all that, who came up with the great idea for the infrastructure, and then who added on to that MONUMENTAL feat? That is the main point of my post. You might also recall, being a student of the interwebs, that at the other end of the CERN pipeline that is often cited, was Cornell University, which last time I checked, was in Upstate NY. :)

[Vincent Tai]

Stick to woodworking Jessica. You have skills, knowledge and training there.

The hyperlink is a follow-on development made possible by earlier work done Stateside. That's how science and engineering works - we all stand on the shoulders of the giants who came before us.

Frederick you're correct but I don't see why Jessica should stick to woodworking, she's is right about the WWW. And of course we all stand on the shoulders of the giants, but Lee is up there with Bob Taylor. A decently tall giant in his own right. His work is a follow on development, sure; one that happens to be what the internet is mainly used for along with email.
The people who invented the internet never dreamed their network structure could have such uses. The IPs of current are still the ones designed for small computer networks and the tech that existed then. If they had foreseen the world wide web, the internet would look quite different, be designed different, and things would've been much smoother going for the world during the early 2000 and earlier. The WWW exploded and multiplied like nothing seen ever before.

Again, to demonstrate the importance of the WWW, I will reiterate. The internet is almost exclusively used for accessing the World Wide Web and email.

On a sidenote, how did this topic even start? I can't even find Pete's original line quoted by Jessica.

Vincent

[Vincent Tai]

Vincent,

Forgive me, but I meant the internet which is why I used that term to start with. I understand that the internet is the physical infrastructure that carries world wide web traffic. Copper, fiber, switches, routers, etc. I never made any mention of the WWW, others did. My facts are also not incorrect about email starting before there was a WWW.

I'm also not disputing Lee's contribution. Having said all that, who came up with the great idea for the infrastructure, and then who added on to that MONUMENTAL feat? That is the main point of my post. You might also recall, being a student of the interwebs, that at the other end of the CERN pipeline that is often cited, was Cornell University, which last time I checked, was in Upstate NY. :)

I am in full agreement that American brain power, money and foundation laying for all of the above is what allowed for progress as we see it.

I guess I wrote too much. I was slightly puzzled as to what gave rise to this topic of conversation, I can garner enough to put together a picture but can't find the first post. Nevertheless maybe a passerby might find my long winded post slightly informative.

[Vincent Tai]

LOL. The picture is now fully formed. Interesting, I hadn't observed this sort of moderation happening before. I guess I'm still fairly new to the forum. I think I might have to avoid posting some pictures of my work, I've got "Great White North" in Chinese characters etched into a few metal things somewhere. I forget if I've put it on any of my Kanna blades. I wonder if a maple leaf in my work would be too much if I wrote a little line about it mentioning Canada.

[Mel Fulks]

He has a schtick of contagious energy that makes you want to get in the shop and do something.

[Mark Maleski]

I suspect Chris Schwarz, with a degree in journalism and experience in woodworking, doesn’t know much about TCP/IP design or hypertext markup. Wait...how’d we get to this point of the argument? :confused:

[Kory Cassel]

I suspect Chris Schwarz, with a degree in journalism and experience in woodworking, doesn’t know much about TCP/IP design or hypertext markup. Wait...how’d we get to this point of the argument? :confused:
The moderators deleted a few choice comments.:D

[Dave Anderson NH]

No more posts please on who invented what. It is not germane to the topic of this discussion and does nothing but cause bad feelings. The topic is Chris Schwarz and his impact on our little unimportant little segment of our vastly varied and complex world. Now back to the topic.

[Phil Gaudio]

Well said Derek, well said.



I agree, David.

Each generation has its heroes. It is not simply what they taught that made an impression. It was how they taught, and how this inspired a love of woodworking.

I recall Norm very fondly, although I could possibly teach him a thing or two now about handwork. It was not his expertise that stirred me, but his passion, and that he led by example, as does Chris. Many here may also not be aware of the many articles you wrote for Furniture and Cabinetmaking all those years back (20?). They are now collected in your books. I found them wonderful, and still do. I also like that you have never stopped learning .... and demonstrating that, indeed, we old dogs can learn new tricks! :)

I not only like Chris as a teacher and appreciate his blogs and books (and humour!) - I must emphasise that it is not always the last word in technique that one should seek out (there are a number of other woodworkers out their that I might recommend for technique, per se) - but I deeply respect what he has done to foster passion in so many for the craft we share. To inspire others is a wonderful gift, and I hope that this generation recognises this, and appreciates what Chris has done over the past 15 or so years.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Warren Mickley]

Stick to woodworking Jessica. You have skills, knowledge and training there.


Can you imagine the outcry if a woodworker told someone on this forum " Stick to engineering" or "Stick to journalism" ?

[Frederick Skelly]

Can you imagine the outcry if a woodworker told someone on this forum " Stick to engineering" or "Stick to journalism" ?

You're probably right Warren. :) It was a crude and perhaps ineffective attempt at tact.

I do like Mr. Schwartz and have learned from him. I have several of his books and releases from LAP. He's very readable, whether I use his techniques or someone else's. But again, I'm only in this as a hobbyist and that makes my perspective different than someone who makes their living at it like you do.

Hope things are well with you Sir!

Best regards,
Fred

[Edwin Santos]

I think I need to get out more. I've never heard of this Christopher Schwarz, but thanks to this thread I'll have to look into him. He must be a good fellow to have such a fervent following among a crowd of high standards.

I guess there are quite a few woodworking celebrities these days, like the personalities on the Food Network.

I remember when there was only Norm. This must make Norm the Julia Child of the genre.

[Edwin Santos]

Another thought - these woodworking "celebrities", whatever their medium, are good for us all.

They promote interest in the craft, which increases the market for tools and supplies, which creates more choices, more innovation, and lower prices for all of us.

[Mark Rainey]

Is there a misunderstanding here? Is Jessica from Europe? Perhaps they don’t hear much about American woodworking “celebrities”. Perhaps they value the trades more than we do? There are some amazing hobby woodworkers on the site who have shared their knowledge with me. When I hear of a woodworker who earns his daily bread year in & year out as a woodworker, I sometimes am very impressed.

[Edwin Santos]

In defense of Jessica, and in keeping with the celebrity chef analogy - the content of celebrity woodworkers, as talented as they may be, is not usually aimed at a professional woodworker like her, any more than Julia Child's programs were aimed at professional chefs.
So it might be no surprise that she may not know who Schwarz is nor that she would have a very different outlook than his target audience.

[Frederick Skelly]

Is there a misunderstanding here? Is Jessica from Europe? Perhaps they don’t hear much about American woodworking “celebrities”. Perhaps they value the trades more than we do? There are some amazing hobby woodworkers on the site who have shared their knowledge with me. When I hear of a woodworker who earns his daily bread year in & year out as a woodworker, I sometimes am very impressed.

Yes, Belgium or Holland I think. I think Europe values the Trades more than we do. And I wouldn't expect Europeans to hear of our guys any more than we hear of theirs - the world is a big place. But being American, I've never needed multiple languages - everything I need is delivered in English. Tage and Frank taught me as much or more than Chris. But they wrote in English. Jessica is probably right - there are probably a TON of others I'd enjoy in Europe, but I can't read their languages.

[Kory Cassel]

There's another argument to be made here for respect and tolerance as opposed to exclusivity. While Chris Schwarz may never 'teach' anything to a master woodworker, his body of work is nothing to sneer at. Particularly in compiling and publishing old books that can keep knowledge about traditional methods circulating in print. Just saying 'I'm a more skilled craftsman so his work is not educational to me' is fine if true, but I won't believe that he deserves no public respect in present company just because there are some people here on the forum who are superior craftsmen. This is a woodworking forum that people view in web searches, so why publicly tear him down?

[Jim Falsetti]

+1 on the praise.

Chris is a positive influence in woodworking. Take a look at his Woodworking magazine, that he did before PW. There was no advertising. In depth articles, examining different methods, and clear explanations.

[William Adams]

I appreciate and am glad of careful research made accessible to folks so that all can benefit. I wish they'd put more effort into typography and proofreading though.

In particular, I am really looking forward to a second printing of _Virtuoso_ which hopefully will correct the errors and typos in it, and I really wish that they would make a high resolution photo of the two pairs of jeweler's pliers which should be on pg. 70 instead of the repeated photo of the flat pliers from pg. 142 available, or better still, do a cancel and provide folks who have bought the book a corrected reprint of the page in question. At the very least if they would correct this in the extract pdf which they make available folks could print their own.

[Brian Nguyen]

That makes sense--but I think some poster were put off by the way Jessica made her comment and therefore came to the "defense" of CW. It just seems very dismissive simply because she's not familiar of who CW is. By that vein, you can just turn around and say that there's no European professional woodworkers worth mentioning because you've never heard of them, which is preposterous.

The flexing on WWW and Internet knowledge was weird but mildly interesting, though!



Yes, Belgium or Holland I think. I think Europe values the Trades more than we do. And I wouldn't expect Europeans to hear of our guys any more than we hear of theirs - the world is a big place. But being American, I've never needed multiple languages - everything I need is delivered in English. Tage and Frank taught me as much or more than Chris. But they wrote in English. Jessica is probably right - there are probably a TON of others I'd enjoy in Europe, but I can't read their languages.

[Jessica de Boer]

I've been looking at some of the stuff Swarz made and he obviously knows a thing or 2 about woodworking. But his audience is clearly the English speaking hobbyist woodworker and thus quite small. The same goes for Rob Cosman and David Charlesworth (I know he's British). There are scores of skilled craftsmen and women all over the world, hobbyists or professionals, who couldn't care less about them.

There are also a lot of professional woodworkers all over Europe who teach evening or weekend courses. They aren't famous so you never hear of them but the hobbyist woodworker finds them through word of mouth, forums or local advertisements. A good friend of mine who also has his own furniture making business gives weekend courses. He started doing it about 8 years ago and it's a great way to make some extra money. I know of several others in other parts of the country who do the same.

What I'm trying to say is Swarz's importance and relevance to the global world of woodworking is not nearly as big as Americans may like to think it is. And let's not forget that innovations, new techniques and methods almost always come from the professionals which then trickle down to the hobbyist.

[Frederick Skelly]

There are scores of skilled craftsmen and women all over the world, hobbyists or professionals, who couldn't care less about them.

What I'm trying to say is Swarz's importance and relevance to the global world of woodworking is not nearly as big as Americans may like to think it is. And let's not forget that innovations, new techniques and methods almost always come from the professionals which then trickle down to the hobbyist.

Nobody said that Schwartz, Cosman or even Charlesworth were global celebrities with enormous audiences. We simply said that some of us like to learn from them. We got your point that Europe has their own. Go read post #72.

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Jessica

This thread is (was) about Chris Schwarz and the contribution he has made to woodworking. For those on this forum, it refers to the contribution he has made to their woodworking. Clearly, for those here, this does not refer to the contribution of other woodworkers to woodworking around the world. And it does not imply that others around the world are being ignored. It is simply a recognition of the work one man has done to further the woodworking passion of those with whom he has had contact. This is largely the USA, but includes other English-speaking countries such as Canada, the UK and Australia. Context is everything.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Mark Rainey]

I've been looking at some of the stuff Swarz made and he obviously knows a thing or 2 about woodworking. But his audience is clearly the English speaking hobbyist woodworker and thus quite small. The same goes for Rob Cosman and David Charlesworth (I know he's British). There are scores of skilled craftsmen and women all over the world, hobbyists or professionals, who couldn't care less about them.

There are also a lot of professional woodworkers all over Europe who teach evening or weekend courses. They aren't famous so you never hear of them but the hobbyist woodworker finds them through word of mouth, forums or local advertisements. A good friend of mine who also has his own furniture making business gives weekend courses. He started doing it about 8 years ago and it's a great way to make some extra money. I know of several others in other parts of the country who do the same.

What I'm trying to say is Swarz's importance and relevance to the global world of woodworking is not nearly as big as Americans may like to think it is. And let's not forget that innovations, new techniques and methods almost always come from the professionals which then trickle down to the hobbyist.
Jessica, thank you for your point of view. I respect it. Others have different points of view which I respect. Most importantly keep contributing your expertise to this forum. Your generosity is appreciated!

[Jessica de Boer]

@ Derek Cohen: I understand what you're saying. It's just that David Charlesworth said he made a large contribution to "the woodworking community". That's a very broad, generalising statement and to me it seemed as though he was saying there's a global community that has been influenced by Swarz. I got a little carried away by pointing out this is not the case.

[Kory Cassel]

I cannot speak to numbers in the world as a whole, but in the US the Hobbyist woodworker VASTLY outnumbers the professional. Estimates are around 17 million hobbyists. Professionals are measured in the tens of thousands. Woodworking is the fourth largest hobby in the US. In the English speaking world as a whole. The numbers are much larger but the disparity remains the same. Chris Schwarz and David Charlesworth have taught and influenced many in hand methods. Rediscovering and providing instruction on techniques that had been largely abandoned by the hobbyists with the proliferation of power tools. Let's not forget this discussion is going on in Neanderthal Haven. New designs and innovations are not what this is about. It's about exposure to the old hand methods that many have no access to instruction to learn!

[Tom Trees]

The English speaking wood working community you mean. There are scores of skilled craftsmen and women in non-English speaking countries who have never heard of him... or you for that matter. That is not meant as an insult but the wood working "community" as you call it is larger than you think. It doesn't consist of a few forums and youtube channels. What Swarz does and his opinions are not nearly as important as you think they are.

I'd reckon its a safe guess that this is not the case anymore, or all gonna change soon enough.
It's more than likely that English speaking youtube channels and websites have a wider audience, that probably have deeper pockets to buy whatever's in the adds, buy tools
and videos so this is why they are more prevalent.
I wish I was wrong on that, but would have imagined I'd have stumbled across those folks allready...

Much like a lot of folks here, I look near daily for new craftsmen on youtube, not caring which language they speak
But alas, all I can find is just a few folks who aren't geared towards an English speaking community.
Here it goes on my youtube

Pieter Koorn De Ornamentenwinkel
Ishitani furniture
Roeland Brekelmans
Seekelot
and maybe one or two folks that don't have much content unfortunately.

Have you got any recommendations Jessica?

I would love to see some more eastern nethanderals, as I do like Alan Peters work quite a bit,
and equally wondering where the other European channels for cabinetmaking are hidden

Really love Schwarz's enthusiasm, he makes a good presenter, as well as a writer.
I do hope that no.3 was a lemon beyond repair, as that was the only thing I found hard watching.

Don't know where I'd be without y'all folks making videos, it speedily projected me to where I wanted to be.

Tomas

[Pete Taran]

In an effort to dig deeper, Jessica writes:


I've been looking at some of the stuff Swarz made and he obviously knows a thing or 2 about woodworking. But his audience is clearly the English speaking hobbyist woodworker and thus quite small.

From the font of all knowledge, wikipedia, % of world population as it relates to native speaking inhabitants, middle column is 2007 census numbers and then updated with 2010 numbers where they exist and then finally percentage.



1
Mandarin (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandarin_Chinese) (entire branch)
935 (955)
14.1%


2
Spanish (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_language)
390 (405)
5.85%


3
English (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_language)
365 (360)
5.52%


4
Hindi (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindi_language)[a] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_languages_by_number_of_native_speakers#cit e_note-8)
295 (310)
4.46%


5
Arabic (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabic_language)
280 (295)
4.23%


6
Portuguese (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portuguese_language)
205 (215)
3.08%


7
Bengali (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bengali_language) (Bangla)
200 (205)
3.05%


8
Russian (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_language)
160 (155)
2.42%


9
Japanese (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_language)
125 (125)
1.92%


10
Punjabi (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punjabi_language)
95 (100)
1.44%


11
German (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_language)
92 (95)
1.39%


12
Javanese (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Javanese_language)
82
1.25%


13
Wu (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wu_Chinese) (inc. Shanghainese (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shanghainese))
80
1.20%


14
Malay (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malay_language) (inc. Indonesian (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indonesian_language) and Malaysian (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malaysian_language))
77
1.16%


15
Telugu (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telugu_language)
76
1.15%


16
Vietnamese (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnamese_language)
76
1.14%


17
Korean (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_language)
76
1.14%


18
French (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_language)
75
1.12%


19
Marathi (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marathi_language)
73
1.10%


20
Tamil (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tamil_language)
70
1.06%




56
Dutch (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_language)
21
0.32%



Now if you were to substitute DUTCH in your statement, it would actually be true. As inconvenient as it is, including some facts in your posts would be appreciated by all.

Happy Sunday, regardless of what ye speak.

[Jessica de Boer]

I cannot speak to numbers in the world as a whole, but in the US the Hobbyist woodworker VASTLY outnumbers the professional.

I wonder how many of them go on to make a career out of it? Is it possible in the US to start a furniture making company without any formal training or having acquired certificates/diplomas from a state recognised trades school to let people know you know what you're doing?

[Pete Taran]

Jessica,

Seems to me this entire session of witty banter is based on a misconception on your part. This is not the "I'm a professional woodworker, all bow to my greatness forum", it's Saw Mill Creek, a forum of hobbyist woodworkers. While there are a few professionals here, that is not the forum's mandate. You might consider joining (or starting) the "I'm a professional woodworker, all bow to my greatness forum" and check in from time to time to let us know how that is going for you.

To your point, in America, Hobby Woodworkers do vastly outnumber professionals, no question. Why? One only has to look to our Bureau of Labor statistics to find the answer




Quick Facts: Woodworkers


2017 Median Pay (https://www.bls.gov/ooh/production/woodworkers.htm#TB_inline?height=325&width=325&inlineId=qf-wage)
$30,850 per year
$14.83 per hour


Typical Entry-Level Education (https://www.bls.gov/ooh/production/woodworkers.htm#TB_inline?height=325&width=325&inlineId=qf-education)
High school diploma or equivalent


Work Experience in a Related Occupation (https://www.bls.gov/ooh/production/woodworkers.htm#TB_inline?height=325&width=325&inlineId=qf-experience)
None


On-the-job Training (https://www.bls.gov/ooh/production/woodworkers.htm#TB_inline?height=325&width=325&inlineId=qf-training)
See How to Become One (https://www.bls.gov/ooh/production/woodworkers.htm#tab-4)


Number of Jobs, 2016 (https://www.bls.gov/ooh/production/woodworkers.htm#TB_inline?height=325&width=325&inlineId=qf-number-jobs)
263,500


Job Outlook, 2016-26 (https://www.bls.gov/ooh/production/woodworkers.htm#TB_inline?height=325&width=325&inlineId=qf-outlook)
1% (Little or no change)


Employment Change, 2016-26 (https://www.bls.gov/ooh/production/woodworkers.htm#TB_inline?height=325&width=325&inlineId=qf-emp-change)
2,700



In America, most people want more for themselves than a subsistence level wage. Americans as a whole don't value the skilled trades like they once did. So, to devote yourself to a skill that is not valued in the marketplace just doesn't make sense. Certainly there are people who can and do find a way to make it, but they are the exceptions, not the rule. I was one of them myself back in the 90s when I started Independence Tool. I know of what I speak. It's a much better plan to have a day job, and do what you love in your spare time (for fun and profit) than to experience a life of low pay, stress and wages to live the dream.

[Derek Cohen]

@ Derek Cohen: I understand what you're saying. It's just that David Charlesworth said he made a large contribution to "the woodworking community". That's a very broad, generalising statement and to me it seemed as though he was saying there's a global community that has been influenced by Swarz. I got a little carried away by pointing out this is not the case.

I get this. I am not a professional woodworker, but I am a professional other. I take pride in my work, and that I earned the right to do it. There are no short cuts to the knowledge, the standards, and the licence to practice. There are many wanna-bes, who believe that they do not need to do the long yards.

I imagine that woodworking in Europe is different to the USA. I know that in Germany one needs a Master's degree for accreditation to work. I suspect it was the same for you. This is a serious subject. And the wrong forum for it.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Jessica de Boer]

This is a serious subject. And the wrong forum for it.

Regards from Perth

Derek

You are right and I will shut up about it.

[lowell holmes]

I had no idea my post about Chris Schwarz would evolve into this string.
I was just stating that I admire his work and am pleased he is still round.

[steven c newman]

Would have been just as bad..if you had said Paul Sellers instead.....

The views from those tall Ivory Towers some reside in....would be a lot better if their nose wasn't getting in the way, as they were looking down....

[William Fretwell]

Well as my beautiful blonde Dutch penfriend (Elsan) used to say 40 years ago, “no one speaks Dutch anymore!”. English was their country’s language.
Chris’s target audience may be the hobbyist woodworker speaking English but what is his market penetration? Many years ago I remember seeing his coffee table workbench book in a store, bit like eating an ice cream. Tage Frid is the only name that has influenced my actual work.

[Simon MacGowen]

I had no idea my post about Chris Swarz would evolve into this string.
.

Your thread is really great, as it has generated discussions as well as exchanges of opinions (in a civilized manner). I like seeing people not being pressured or intimated into conforming.

One more time: It's Schwarz, please.

Simon

[James Pallas]

As I said, smart man. 92 posts plus some deleted ones since 12/10. Name on top. Good play Chris. My guess would be that he knows what's here and has a smile.
Jim

[Jim Koepke]

In America, most people want more for themselves than a subsistence level wage. Americans as a whole don't value the skilled trades like they once did.

In the U.S. a person who makes pallets all day is likely classified as a woodworker. Would a carpenter also fall into the classification?

As far as valuing the skilled trades, most young people tend to buy their home furnishings from stores like Ikea.

Until a half century ago, radios and televisions were a piece of furniture, often with a wooden case.

Now days if a person wants a better piece of furniture in their home, they either have to be pretty well off or make their own.

Chris Schwarz makes mistakes like the rest of us. He has done a lot to inspire others to give things a try. Anyone else remember the days when he could drive the prices of second hand tools up by mentioning them in his writings?

His method and personality is more appealing to me than that of someone who first tries to convince me of a need to purchase a new blade or tool he is promoting.

Even the "celebrity woodworkers" who do not appeal to me have taught me some things.

BTW, if my memory is working Chris Schwarz has taught classes in Germany and France.

jtk

[Kory Cassel]

I wonder how many of them go on to make a career out of it? Is it possible in the US to start a furniture making company without any formal training or having acquired certificates/diplomas from a state recognised trades school to let people know you know what you're doing?
Jessica, the question as to why craftsmen in the States don't need certificates to sell their products goes all the way back to the founding of the country and our repressed trade by taxations and English law. It's a long story but it boils down to this: If you are not physically hurting someone or polluting the environment, you can make and sell almost anything that anyone is willing to buy. It's kind of a buyer beware situation, but the market will correct itself. A short time of making bad products will close a business in the States. I would like to keep it that way because our secondary education, like formal training in woodworking, is more expensive than many can afford. If our educational systems were different, an enforced guild of some kind might work. The opportunity to produce a finished product and bring it to market is a big part of why we fought for independence.

[Pete Taran]

With all this talk of Professional Woodworkers, I thought I would post a short snippet of a Professional Woodworker I greatly admire, namely my Grandfather, Louis Gansell. He was born in 1893 and was a true professional. The picture attached is of a carving he did in 1923 for the Glasboro Normal School, located in NJ. It was 29 feet long and 6 1/2 feet tall and was carved in 19 days. It shipped complete in a boxcar. The woman in the carving was modeled after his wife and my Grandmother, Florence. You will notice him wearing a tie in the photo. He only went to School through the 8th grade and taught himself to carve by whittling with his pocket knife. While Louis passed in 1979 when I was but a youngster, I think of him often.

398938

[Frederick Skelly]

Great story and beautiful work Pete!

[Pete Taran]

I thought I would see if his carving still exists. It does! Part of Rowan University.
398939

[Mel Fulks]

Pete, great piece,and interesting family history. Is that material wood with gesso,or what? It is so smooth and white.

[Pete Taran]

I'm sure it was pine. Maybe poplar. Something easy to carve. Just imagine carving that in 19 days. Hard to imagine.

[Kory Cassel]

So nice on the fabric detail. Gotta love that 20s style hat on the right! Maybe if I had a state recognized diploma...no not this lifetime. Oh well:(

I doubt Chris Schwarz can teach someone to carve like that, but he can inspire people to get into the craft and learn for themselves all that their natural talent can bring to it!

[Hasin Haroon]

Clearly we all have too much time on our hands...

[Bruce Page]

Very cool family history, Pete.

Here's another picture of your grandfather's carving. It could use some touch up paint.
Interesting that the figure on the right lost the bonnet.

[Pete Taran]

Seems like you can just make out the line where the bonnet still is, although the folks who painted it decided to make it hair colored. Appreciate the share. I've had that clipping from the Grit for years that my mother gave me, and it even was on the back cover of the Fine Tool Journal back in the day, but never googled to see if it was still around. I guess I imagined it would have been torn down and termite food by now. Very happy it still survives.

[Nicholas Lawrence]

With all this talk of Professional Woodworkers . . . “


I approve of this hijack. Thanks for posting.

[Eric Rathhaus]

Jessica - I believe there are quite a few Amish woodworking companies started as small operations without any kind of "formal" teaching. The US culture has looked down on vocational training for quite awhile. I'm a lawyer, and when I first started in 1995, I had a client who had spent 2 years looking for young machinists and tool and die makers in the US without success, and they were offering over $100K in 1995! Expanding their search outside of the US, they found several in the UK. There's no "artisan" culture in the US that values the beauty, art and skill of traditional handwork. Yes there are niches for very high-end clients, but if not for the hobby community here, traditional techniques and tools would die. People like CS, Roy Underhill, etc. have kept this history alive and attracted hobbyists to join in. I think as a professional you do a disservice to dismiss them. Ultimately, the interest they generate in traditional craft techniques helps create awareness of and grow the market for the work of professionals like yourself.

[Edwin Santos]

Jessica, the question as to why craftsmen in the States don't need certificates to sell their products goes all the way back to the founding of the country and our repressed trade by taxations and English law. It's a long story but it boils down to this: If you are not physically hurting someone or polluting the environment, you can make and sell almost anything that anyone is willing to buy. It's kind of a buyer beware situation, but the market will correct itself. A short time of making bad products will close a business in the States. I would like to keep it that way because our secondary education, like formal training in woodworking, is more expensive than many can afford. If our educational systems were different, an enforced guild of some kind might work. The opportunity to produce a finished product and bring it to market is a big part of why we fought for independence.

Tying the lack of skilled trade certification and education in the US to the war of independence is a bit of a stretch.
There was a time when there were artisan guilds, vo-tech schools and unions that played a big role in skilled trade education that could be considered formal or at least approximating it. The unions in my opinion were impressive in their enforcement of standards. You couldn't just call yourself a journeyman and be one. This was the case for a long time in many trades.

IMO, the demand for traditional woodworking skills in particular changed over time based on factory produced furniture, consumer price sensitivity and a rising cost of living that pushed hand work overseas. Traditional fine woodworking technique of the sort that CS teaches is not much more than a boutique niche profession in the US despite the fact that many of us wish it were not so. The closest significant professional trade that approximates woodworking in the US are the shops assembling kitchen and bath cabinets, doors, drawers and trim carpentry, the kind of work that goes in every home. They are using Ritter machines, Lamello joiners, Blum hardware, and now CNC.
This work is nothing like what CS is teaching and promoting. If someone wanted a piece of furniture for their home or office, it is the exceptional one that would go out seeking an artisan to custom build it.

CS and others like him are doing a nice job keeping a traditional craft alive, but his efforts are aimed at hobbyists and enthusiasts, not for anyone seeking a career path as far as I can tell.
Like I mentioned in an earlier post, perhaps the best things that these notable celebrity woodworkers do is inspire others to take up the craft, if even just for themselves.

I truly don't feel Jessica is attempting to malign him, but perhaps questioning why he's not an orange, when in fact he's a very good apple with a loyal following.

[Kory Cassel]

Tying the lack of skilled trade certification and education in the US to the war of independence is a bit of a stretch.

If I build a cabinet in my shop to sell to my neighbor and the Edwin Santos guild of master cabinetmakers sends me a letter telling me to cease and desist. Who is the government of the United States of America going to support? Any why is that?

There are very old ideas associated with what it means to be a citizen of the US. One of which is his pursuit of happiness. Safety aside, I can build and sell anything I want and it is a very different situation in other parts of the world where quality standards are enforced to help keep traditional craftsmanship alive. I need no certification to commercialize my woodworking in this country because those pesky lingering ideas about letting people make their living as they choose trump maintaining high standards of traditional craftsmanship here. It has everything to do with our collective cultural attitude informed by our earliest history.

[Edwin Santos]

If I build a cabinet in my shop to sell to my neighbor and the Edwin Santos guild of master cabinetmakers sends me a letter telling me to cease and desist. Who is the government of the United States of America going to support? Any why is that?


Sigh. You win.
I give up in my attempts to illustrate the merit in both points of view in this thread, including yours.
It seems in order for one point of view to be right, the other has to be absolutely wrong and without any merit whatsoever.

[Warren Mickley]

Jessica There's no "artisan" culture in the US that values the beauty, art and skill of traditional handwork..

I have been a part of an artisan culture my whole career. We value the beauty, art and skill of traditional handwork. If you are not familiar with people like us, that is a shame. We certainly know lawyers who are.

[Mark Rainey]

Sigh. You win.
I give up in my attempts to illustrate the merit in both points of view in this thread, including yours.
It seems in order for one point of view to be right, the other has to be absolutely wrong and without any merit whatsoever.
Well said Edwin. Jessica made a good point. Others have their point, which I also respect. Let’s get back to woodworking.

[Mark Rainey]

I have been a part of an artisan culture my whole career. We value the beauty, art and skill of traditional handwork. If you are not familiar with people like us, that is a shame. We certainly know lawyers who are.
Professionals like you, Tom King, Jessica and many others are an invaluable asset to this forum and your generous contributions are appreciated.

[Pete Taran]

Edwin,

Where you see lemons, I see lemonade. I think you can both be right. In my mind, your point about guilds and unions having standards which are designed to be able to promote excellence in work product is true. They do.

Kory's point, is also true and more compelling in my view. You can join a guild and be bound by their rules here in America, or you can say, I don't need those guys, my stuff is already first rate. It's your choice, the market can decide who is right. In Europe, you have only one choice, the way the gub'mint tells you to do it. That's Kory's point.

We shucked this notion of being told what to do back in 1776 when we told King George to keep it movin'. In essence, the base state for man is to be free, and government needs to be constrained and operate within set boundaries. Telling people what they can and can't do with their lives is not part of that contract. It's spelled out in our Declaration of Independence where it talks about Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness, You will notice that the founders did not sign up for a Guarantee of Happiness.

To test this notion if this premise really does work, one only needs to look to the many self made Billionaires in the United States. Check out the list of the world's richest people for this year:

1 Increase Jeff Bezos $112 billion Increase 54 United States Amazon
2 Decrease Bill Gates $90 billion Increase 62 United States Microsoft
3 Decrease Warren Buffett $84 billion Increase 87 United States Berkshire Hathaway
4 Increase Bernard Arnault $72 billion Increase 69 France LVMH
5 Steady Mark Zuckerberg $71 billion Increase 33 United States Facebook
6 Decrease Amancio Ortega $70 billion Decrease 81 Spain Inditex, Zara
7 Decrease Carlos Slim $67.1 billion Increase 78 Mexico América Móvil, Grupo Carso
8 Steady Charles Koch $60 billion Increase 82 United States Koch Industries
8 Steady David Koch $60 billion Increase 77 United States Koch Industries
10 Decrease Larry Ellison $58.5 billion Increase 73 United States Oracle Corporation

Notice anything compelling about the list? 7 of the top 10 being American? Looks to my eye almost all on that list are self made in their generation to boot. Clearly, the idea of freedom is more than just some quaint 200+ year old notion.





Sigh. You win.
I give up in my attempts to illustrate the merit in both points of view in this thread, including yours.
It seems in order for one point of view to be right, the other has to be absolutely wrong and without any merit whatsoever.

[Nicholas Lawrence]

The US culture has looked down on vocational training for quite awhile.

“U.S. culture” is more than what you see on TV. Outside of LA and New York, millions of Americans do honorable work with their hands, many of them formally trained through vocational programs at the high school level or in trade schools. There are still a fair number of folks who receive that training through a union as well.

[Eric Rathhaus]

Warren, I don't mean there aren't artisans in the U.S. Such a notion would contradict my earlier statements. My point is that we don't have a culture that recognizes and values artisans. Maybe because we didn't have strong guilds? In the US, "we" glorify the entrepreneur and owner not the maker.

[James Waldron]

“U.S. culture” is more than what you see on TV. Outside of LA and New York, millions of Americans do honorable work with their hands, many of them formally trained through vocational programs at the high school level or in trade schools. There are still a fair number of folks who receive that training through a union as well.

The topic is hand tool woodworking. Haven't seen many high school vocational programs teaching hand tool woodworking recently. Hand tool woodworking trade schools are thin on the ground and quite expensive and remote for most. Haven't seen many unions training hand tool woodworkers recently. If you have examples, it would be nice to know about them.

Of course you're right about many trades, but when you reduce to hand tool woodworking, I'd have to say there ain't much out there and what is there is hard to access for a kid in Memphis, say, or Pittsburgh. (I don't know about opportunities in Memphis or Pittsburgh specifically, but don't know of any hand tool woodworking trade schools there and if they have hand tool woodworking in their high schools, I would love to be shown to be wrong. And I'm still looking for the union that teaches hand tool woodworking anywhere.)

[Nicholas Lawrence]

The topic is hand tool woodworking...

Read the comment I quoted, and am responding to, which suggests Americans “look down” on “vocational training” and goes on to talk about machinists, etc. It is clearly not limited to hand tool woodworking.

My point is that some pockets or circles in America may look down on vocational training, but I do not believe that is true for the country as a whole. That is the whole premise of “Dirty Jobs” and a host of other aspects of the culture.

I am not sure what your point is about there not being formal training programs in hand tool woodworking. We don’t have formal training in buggy driving either. Are your hypothetical children in Memphis or Pittsburgh looking for a hobby, or are they looking for a reliable way to earn a living?

[Jessica de Boer]

The US culture has looked down on vocational training for quite awhile.

The same is true in Europe. Young people have been told for decades by the government and society they need to keep studying and go to university if possible. This has created a situation where a lot of people look down on others who work with their hands. Kids nowadays all want a nice clean desk job and become a manager as a result. The number of young people in the furniture making trade has been dropping steadily since I went into business for myself 12 years ago. It's a trend you see it all over the place, especially in Western European countries. The number of job openings for plumbers, painters, carpenters, mechanics, you name it has never been higher. Companies are begging people to come work for them and a lot of companies have to let jobs go because they simply can't find any qualified people. At least not for the money they're offering.

The number of people who are willing to pay for bespoke furniture has been dropping as well so I shifted my focus to the more wealthy clients. A nice side effect of this is that I don't have to do any advertising. I get all my work by word of mouth. When I make a beautiful, unique piece of furniture they want to show it off to their friends who of course can't be left behind.

[Mark Rainey]

Jessica, you are the uncommon artisan who Neanderthals worship. You are keeping the dream alive. Most of us are hobby woodworkers who know we can’t ( or don’t want to try ) make a living with wood. Our culture has a lust of money. We Neanders know there are aspects of our humanity that are more important than money. Many celebrities understand our fantasy & make a buck facilitating our dreams. You are walking the walk, living our dream. Keep it up!

[Jessica de Boer]

Our culture has a lust of money. We Neanders know there are aspects of our humanity that are more important than money.

I would be deeply unhappy if I had to sit at an office desk all day long. I would go crazy if I wasn't busy making nice things and I know I'm very lucky I get to go to work every day to do what I love to do.

[Bill Carey]

no worries Lowell - it's been a fun read. I needed my CBM64 for parts of the thread.
And it has stayed civilized. Well done peeps.

[Charles Guest]

Tuition for the furnituremaking program at North Bennett Street School is $50K per year (does not include room and board). It's a two-year program. If you're not from Boston, you'd better plan on $75K a year, minimum.

https://www.nbss.edu/full-time-programs/cabinet-furniture-making/tuition

For comparison purposes, full-time tuition at Boston U. is ~$53,000

http://www.bu.edu/admissions/tuition-aid/tuition/

[Van Huskey]

399053

..................

[Eric Rathhaus]

Nicholas - I don't mean any disrespect to anyone. And I'm not a social historian so that my observation could easily be incorrect. I would argue though that there is a difference between what people do and the culture in which we live. There's a dynamic relationship between these things. I have met many people in different industries and trades that have mentioned how hard it is to find young people going into certain fields such as tool and die making. My analysis is that in the US as a culture we don't have an ethos around the value of artisans and other trades that would encourage more young people to enter these fields. I'm sure this issue is a challenge everywhere bcs of the changes brought on by electronic technology. But I suspect it might be more acute in the US because we don't have an ethos around the intrinsic value of these activities that might offset these economic and technological forces. Your reference to union training, I think, underlines my point. I would say the ethos in the US is quite hostile and depricating to unions with the commensurate steep decline in membership.

[Kory Cassel]

On the concept of working with your hands and 'dirty jobs'.
Ironically enough, it seems a more attractive course for young people entering the work force in the US today is to become a youtube celebrity.
Not to imply that Chris Schwarz is any sort of youtube exclusive personality.
I spoke with a 16 year old last year who's one burning ambition in life was to become wealthy and famous playing video games on youtube.
Sigh...who will work when we're gone?

[Van Huskey]

Sigh...who will work when we're gone?

Robots.

The reality is the potential to make large sums of money playing video games on the internet is much greater than via most forms of "work" like woodworking. Just ask Pewdiepie who is worth over $60 million. There is also the option to become a game tutor/coach or a more frowned upon "booster". Like "show business" for the last few hundred years video games and youtube offer lucrative careers.

[Pete Taran]

Reading the latest thoughts on the decline of people willing to work with their hands (or wanting to) reminds me of a show on PBS I watch from time to time. It's called a Craftsman's Legacy. The host is a guy who claimed to be climbing the corporate ladder and got burned out and turned to a life of working with his hands. Every week there is some new Craftsman he visits and the show centers around how they got started in their craft and then the rest of the show is them working on that craft together. Some examples include making soap (with lye and fat), fly rod making from bamboo cane and even a guy who is a master calligrapher.

I've watched about 20 shows over the past year, and a few common themes have emerged regardless of the craft:

1) If you are going to be successful and make a living at a craft, you need to be the best there is
2) You have to embrace new ways to tackle old problems
3) You need to be wiling to be Craftsman, Marketing and Sales VP as well as Book Keeper. Being savvy with social media doesn't hurt.
4) You need to be willing to work very hard, for decades even, to accomplish the above and achieve success.

If you haven't seen this show, you might want to check it out. Most of the shows involve people working with hand tools. It's worth a look and dovetails nicely with this discussion.

As an aside, being an avid fly fisherman myself, the guy who builds rods from bamboo is JD Wagner. I discovered after googling him that he is from the next town over from where I live. As a result of seeing the show, I'm signed up next summer to make a split cane bamboo rod in one of his week long classes.

[Brian Holcombe]

I went to business school and have a BS in Finance, I spent 10 years working in sales. These two items prepared me for a career as person who owns a woodworking business (with one employee :D).

[James Waldron]

I went to business school and have a BS in Finance, I spent 10 years working in sales. These two items prepared me for a career as person who owns a woodworking business (with one employee :D).

That and your often reported sartorial splendor!

Actually, very few small business entrepreneurs have such credentials and training and experience; the lack is a frequent cause of failures.

[Kris Cook]

I watched a video not too long ago (probably on You Tube :D) There is a fellow I think in the PNW somewhere that takes on wayward kids and teaches them woodworking skills. He said something on his video that has stuck with me, and I think is profound.

"There are two kinds of people in this world - those that take a shower before work, and those that take a shower after work - the world needs both of them"

[Bruce Page]

"There are two kinds of people in this world - those that take a shower before work, and those that take a shower after work - the world needs both of them"

Wise words!

[Tyler Bancroft]

By publishing standards, his company (Lost Art Press) is a minor miracle (small publishers aren't the least risky business venture in the world), and I see that as his most significant contribution to the community. Especially now that traditional learning and training methods are uncommon, having a strong written record is invaluable, IMHO.

[Hilton Ralphs]

Reading the latest thoughts on the decline of people willing to work with their hands (or wanting to) reminds me of a show on PBS I watch from time to time. It's called a Craftsman's Legacy.

Thanks for this Pete.

[Tony Zaffuto]

By publishing standards, his company (Lost Art Press) is a minor miracle (small publishers aren't the least risky business venture in the world), and I see that as his most significant contribution to the community. Especially now that traditional learning and training methods are uncommon, having a strong written record is invaluable, IMHO.

As I have already posted, I believe this is his strongest asset. First and foremost, many of the books published are classics and near impossible to find at a reasonable in original editions. Second, the quality is superb, and (IMO) a bargain at their price. Finally, new books are also published, and are also of a more specialized areas of our hobby or craft.

This is his unique place in our timy world, and the one, maybe not exactly him or his woodworking, but what Schwarz has published, that will be remembered. Fifty years from now, Wearing or Hayward will still be remembered as tops in our hobby, but their published works will be much, much harder to find then, than now. But, future woodworkers will be searching out volumes printed by Lost Arts Press, and because of the print quality, they will survive!

[Kory Cassel]

But I suspect it might be more acute in the US because we don't have an ethos around the intrinsic value of these activities that might offset these economic and technological forces.
I think I have an idea what you mean. I had a customer 2 years ago who I had built some benches and an outdoor porch for. She walked up one day and asked if I would make new cabinet doors for her kitchen. She showed me a drawing of a frame and panel door ( a square inside a square) and said she liked the 'outline'. I talked with her a bit and it was clear she had no idea what frame and panel was, she liked her neighbor's cabinets. So we went over to take a look, and the doors were nicely made cope and stick red oak. She was surprised when I explained the method of construction. I couldn't take the commission as I would have had to charge three times the price of the commercial cabinet shop two towns over so I gave her the referral. Her daughter said she would prefer square MDF doors spray painted black with stainless steel handles.:)

[Charles Guest]

Reading the latest thoughts on the decline of people willing to work with their hands (or wanting to) reminds me of a show on PBS I watch from time to time. It's called a Craftsman's Legacy. The host is a guy who claimed to be climbing the corporate ladder and got burned out and turned to a life of working with his hands. Every week there is some new Craftsman he visits and the show centers around how they got started in their craft and then the rest of the show is them working on that craft together. Some examples include making soap (with lye and fat), fly rod making from bamboo cane and even a guy who is a master calligrapher.

I've watched about 20 shows over the past year, and a few common themes have emerged regardless of the craft:

1) If you are going to be successful and make a living at a craft, you need to be the best there is
2) You have to embrace new ways to tackle old problems
3) You need to be wiling to be Craftsman, Marketing and Sales VP as well as Book Keeper. Being savvy with social media doesn't hurt.
4) You need to be willing to work very hard, for decades even, to accomplish the above and achieve success.

If you haven't seen this show, you might want to check it out. Most of the shows involve people working with hand tools. It's worth a look and dovetails nicely with this discussion.

As an aside, being an avid fly fisherman myself, the guy who builds rods from bamboo is JD Wagner. I discovered after googling him that he is from the next town over from where I live. As a result of seeing the show, I'm signed up next summer to make a split cane bamboo rod in one of his week long classes.

All very true, and then a lot (most?) end up teaching, as does the bamboo rod maker you mentioned. So few, so very few, make a real, standalone living (no spousal income or teaching an absolute requirement) making furniture or other bench woodworking products.

[steven c newman]

I have been working with my hands, since I was 15. Long time ago, about the time Norm was starting his TV shows...decided to sell a few things, mainly by word of mouth,,,with the requirement it would at least pay for itself.....
138 chest-of-drawers..
40 Hope/Toy Chests
80 Tables of about every size
30 Porch style Benches
100 shelves..plain to fancy

Had a full time "Day Job" at the same time...got to the point, the woodworking was getting to be a drudgery thing....imagine doing 6 five drawer Chest-of-drawers...in a single weekend. Had zero time for anything else. There was also a deal with supplying a Truck Detailer with custom made consoles and overheads....
One day..decided to "retire" from the woodworking "job".....turned it into a hobby, to keep me out of the Pubs. Friends and Family were the "customers" after that.

Seems lately, that I do a build-along thread...lots of pictures....just part of the way I do this hobby. IF anyone learns from them...that is GREAT! That is why I do them. Almost as much work doing the picture work as the build work...but still FUN....and THAT is what I like....

Told one factory job boss..the day this job is no longer fun to do, is the day I will quit. He didn't believe me.....until I gave "Notice" that I was going elsewhere...took me two weeks vacation I had earned, used that as my two week notice.

Maybe some day, IF a video camera ever shows up, and I learn how to do the "YouTube Thing".....until then...I just blog away...

[Pete Taran]

Charles,

In this case the guy only teaches 2 one week courses a year, total of 4 students each class. In chatting with him via email, I think the teaching is more of a hassle than it's worth, but he does it to pass the knowledge to a new crop of artisans. I'll find out more when I take the class this August.

[Brian Holcombe]

All very true, and then a lot (most?) end up teaching, as does the bamboo rod maker you mentioned. So few, so very few, make a real, standalone living (no spousal income or teaching an absolute requirement) making furniture or other bench woodworking products.

A double income is not exactly rare in 2018.

[Charles Guest]

A double income is not exactly rare in 2018.

It isn't, but you wouldn't want to be homeless if your spouse died either, or there was a divorce, etc. Median annual household income in the U.S. is $59K. There aren't that many furnituremakers/bench woodworkers clearing that purely with what they build on a year in/year out basis. Some do, but not that many in the grand scheme.

Moral: if you're doing this for a living, be extra nice to your spouse.

[Brian Holcombe]

Please provide the facts behind these statements.

Thank you.

[Kory Cassel]

In my occupation, my real job, I went through an apprenticeship program and spent years doing the hardest labor and most menial tasks for a starvation wage. It was a slog but I was aware throughout that demand for my work remained quite high and widespread throughout the country. Now that I have achieved a modest competency, my lifestyle is above average for a blue collar guy. I can see definite challenges involved in making it as a hand tool woodworker in the US today. Folks like Warren who do historical repro work probably have the right track to financial viability IMO. Original designs from a start up shop look very risky to me as a solitary income stream. Pete posted some numbers a few pages back and skimming them made the prospects for financial success as a hand tool woodworker in the US seem rather insecure. I heartily commend those with the courage to go for it though!

[Chris Parks]

The English speaking wood working community you mean. There are scores of skilled craftsmen and women in non-English speaking countries who have never heard of him... or you for that matter. That is not meant as an insult but the wood working "community" as you call it is larger than you think. It doesn't consist of a few forums and youtube channels. What Swarz does and his opinions are not nearly as important as you think they are.

There is so much truth on that and it is a point I have made before. We only see the English version of the internet, take some time to delve into other language video available and there is a wealth of expertise we never see. It seems to me that the criticism of those formally trained and with a successful career in WW by weekend warriors who by definition have no qualification to criticise at all is a bit over the top. If the critics were equally qualified then they do have the qualification to comment.

[Edwin Santos]

There is so much truth on that and it is a point I have made before. We only see the English version of the internet, take some time to delve into other language video available and there is a wealth of expertise we never see. It seems to me that the criticism of those formally trained and with a successful career in WW by weekend warriors who by definition have no qualification to criticise at all is a bit over the top. If the critics were equally qualified then they do have the qualification to comment.

Be careful sir, or you'll end up like me and find yourself staring down the barrel of a Libertarian musket!

[Charles Guest]

Please provide the facts behind these statements.

Thank you.

Median income in 2017 was actually $61,372. I won't insult you with a link. Google and/or Bing is your friend.

The rest of it, obviously, depends on the woodworker's family. I would say that if a woodworking business nets below the median, and the family requires two incomes to make ends meet, then there's going to be a big problem if the non-woodworking earner is suddenly out of the picture for whatever reason. But it all depends on how you choose to live your life, how many children there are, etc., etc.

A family of four in the U.S. is considered at the poverty line with $24,600 in annual income.

Sorry if I've somehow struck a nerve. It all seems like common sense stuff to me. There are guys earning more than that, but they're rare. I know a few professional furnituremakers, as good as any around, and they would be over the moon if they had net income of $61,000, from just woodworking, year in and year out. In some years, that number would be more akin to gross revenue, net being half or so. To net $60K, you'd have to be booking gross commissions annually in the $100K range at least, ~$10,000 in gross commissions every month: booked, built, and delivered.

[Nicholas Lawrence]

People are always fascinated with foreign video around here. I can remember a number of japanese language videos, and it seemed like for about six months people kept linking to the Chinese guy who cut mortises with one chisel and a hatchet.

It may be harder to search for foreign language stuff for the benighted english speakers among us, but if the citizens of the world know where it is and post a link, I am sure people would be interested.


There is so much truth on that and it is a point I have made before. We only see the English version of the internet, take some time to delve into other language video available and there is a wealth of expertise we never see.

[Kory Cassel]

Be careful sir, or you'll end up like me and find yourself staring down the barrel of a Libertarian musket!
I take Jessica's original point, waaaay back there, about the professional's view of 'instuctional media' in a way that might surprise you. When I look at books and youtube videos about welding, I would describe them with phrases like: facile, incomplete, reductive, unsuitable for professional training.

I do think however that it is worth arguing when she denigrates Chris Schwarz' contributions on a public forum and belittles the scope and impact of all English speaking hobbyist woodworkers. I just think that she's wrong. I thought she was unaware of the US's policies regarding why a citizen can sell hand made goods although some were quick to twist that comment into something I still don't understand. She can say what she wants, so can you, I can argue. The quest for civility continues...

[Edwin Santos]

I take Jessica's original point, waaaay back there, about the professional's view of 'instuctional media' in a way that is might surprise you. When I look at books and youtube videos about welding, I would describe them with phrases like: facile, incomplete, reductive, unsuitable for professional training.

I do think however that it is worth arguing when she denigrates Chris Schwarz' contributions on a public forum and belittles the scope and impact of all English speaking hobbyist woodworkers. I just think that she's wrong. I thought she was unaware of the US's policies regarding why a citizen can sell hand made goods although some were quick to twist that comment into something I still don't understand. She can say what she wants, so can you, I can argue. The quest for civility continues...

Kory, I can only speak for my post. I have re-read it and I think it has to do with educational pathways that once existed in greater choice, and the evolution of the market demand that has affected the profession of woodworking. I did not suggest that anything should be regulated or controlled. I definitely never advocated that anyone should shut anyone else down.
I thought I was also indicating that both sides of the conversation had a valid point.
So... I do not understand why the discussion became politicized nor why a lecture from you and Pete about the founding fathers or the revolutionary war was in any way relevant (to my post at least, and perhaps the entire discussion).

And for clarity, I am not proposing that anyone abridge your rights nor would I ever propose to stand in the pathway of your pursuit of happiness.
Also, I share yours and Pete's adulation for the founding fathers of the US, but again, I don't see where it is relevant to my post (and here comes the key part - even though I mostly agree with you).
Edwin

[Vincent Tai]

People are always fascinated with foreign video around here. I can remember a number of japanese language videos, and it seemed like for about six months people kept linking to the Chinese guy who cut mortises with one chisel and a hatchet.

It may be harder to search for foreign language stuff for the benighted english speakers among us, but if the citizens of the world know where it is and post a link, I am sure people would be interested.

Google translate has made decent progress. But it is still hard to get the info; in some languages a word can mean multiple things. A good bet is finding the wikipedia page about something you're interested in written in the native language of wherever you're interesting. I use a google translate extension in my Safari browser. When viewing the translate wikipedia page, (say for the Japanese wiki page on the hand plane), I can hover over the translated words and the original pop up. In Japan, there is a terminology like in any language, for the body of the plane, blade, blade & body. This makes it much easier to zero in. The words just don't translate normally. "Flea" is what we get in English when translating "chisel" from Japanese. But if you can grab the original character or word from wikipedia or some other source than things get much better. Add some other words related to your interest into google and down the rabbit hole you go. Phrasing is hard, I can repeat a search with the same sort of phrase but trying different characters for the words etc and get varied results.

If you look hard enough chances are you'll find something of interest and value. I spent days and days researching about things I was interested in but from another culture and found very valuable information. At some point I'll have 2-3 windows open and 40 tabs open in each. Go through enough blogs, write ups, mini documentaries, and one can form a good grasp of some things.

[Kory Cassel]

You might have had to see some since deleted posts to catch the full flavor of the national pride rant. I am certainly not claiming superiority of vocational education in the US. I was simply explaining why I believe the US will not support the requirement of any certification or diploma to sell woodwork even to promote quality standards. I think it has more to do with a cultural repugnance against government control of a person's opportunities than the evolution of technology or market forces. If we disagree as to why the idea is unworkable in US society unlike some other parts of the world, than that's fine. I don't understand the point that Jessica was making, I thought it was a question.

[Doug Hepler]

I am late to this discussion, which has now gone off in many directions. Regarding the subject of making a living as a craftsman I would recommend reading Peter Korn's book, Why we make things and why it matters. It's the autobiography of a middle-class kid who wanted to make his living as a craftsman and what he went through. This involved many complex personal choices. My point is that we can choose which values we want to emphasize in our lives. Obviously many people are willing to spend two years of their lives and many tens of thousands of dollars to get a formal education in woodworking. Some are willing to make the sacrifices required by a low income. We can hear anecdotes about good and bad customer experiences and we can understand the economic struggle. Korn's book reveals the motivations for choosing such a life and the satisfactions that compensate for the social and economic realities of making your living as a craftsman. (His motivations and satisfactions, at least.) Professional craftspeople demonstrate that there are values in life that are greater than money and the flashy things that money can buy -- and that there are people who are willing to honor those values every day.

This is not a sermon. My point is that the good life is a series of good choices.

Doug

[Charles Guest]

Greatest furniture commission ever (?) (request a trial membership):

https://www.finewoodworking.com/2008/05/01/greatest-commission-ever

While the lumber company is still in business, sadly its furniture-making arm is not.

https://irionlumber.com/irion-company-furniture-makers/

[Hilton Ralphs]

A family of four in the U.S. is considered at the poverty line with $24,600 in annual income.


Wow! Here in South Africa, the poverty line is the equivalent of $64 per person per month. I know this if off-topic but just for some perspective.

[Kory Cassel]

Wow! Here in South Africa, the poverty line is the equivalent of $64 per person per month. I know this if off-topic but just for some perspective.
$64 is a very low wage for a single day where I live which is a low cost of living area of the US.

[Jim Koepke]

$64 is a very low wage for a single day where I live which is a low cost of living area of the US.

Yet even in some of the higher cost areas, that is what some employers try to pay their workers.

The math is simple, $10/hr is $80 a day for 8 hours.

My wife used to marvel that one day of overtime for me would be more than her pay for the week. As my pay increased and her job became less pleasant, we decided we could do fine if she left her employer.

In a previous position at an employer with high turn over, after being there for years one of the managers told her they knew she was stealing from them but they hadn't figured out how, after all, no one stays there as long as she had. That company is no longer in business. With that kind of management it isn't hard to understand.

With employers like that though is it any wonder people are willing to try making it on their own?

Often one of my thoughts about my father going into business for himself was because he didn't like the idea of someone else telling him what to do.

jtk

[David Utterback]

I really tire looking through long threads that contain zero information on the stated subject so others may have also pointed out that CS appears at times on Roy Underhill's show, The Woodwright Shop. Together they are entirely entertaining and informative. Both of them are witty and well versed in the topics they cover. They emphasize basic hand tool skills that continue to need to be presented to hobbyists in the US and elsewhere. They are both gentlemen who have incredible communication skills and real passion for the craft. Both have had substantial influence on me and my work.

Kind regards to all who love their work!
David

[Charles Guest]

I am late to this discussion, which has now gone off in many directions. Regarding the subject of making a living as a craftsman I would recommend reading Peter Korn's book, Why we make things and why it matters. It's the autobiography of a middle-class kid who wanted to make his living as a craftsman and what he went through. This involved many complex personal choices. My point is that we can choose which values we want to emphasize in our lives. Obviously many people are willing to spend two years of their lives and many tens of thousands of dollars to get a formal education in woodworking. Some are willing to make the sacrifices required by a low income. We can hear anecdotes about good and bad customer experiences and we can understand the economic struggle. Korn's book reveals the motivations for choosing such a life and the satisfactions that compensate for the social and economic realities of making your living as a craftsman. (His motivations and satisfactions, at least.) Professional craftspeople demonstrate that there are values in life that are greater than money and the flashy things that money can buy -- and that there are people who are willing to honor those values every day.

This is not a sermon. My point is that the good life is a series of good choices.

Doug

Don't disagree with a word of it in theory, but most of these guys are not satisfied with the living that can be made from purely being a woodworker. Most teach, this certainly includes Peter Korn, and some teach a whole, whole lot either at others' schools or their own. There's nothing wrong with teaching, but there is something wrong with waxing poetical about the craft and the lifestyle choice claimed to go with, when in reality they're supplementing in any way they can. And this doesn't begin to count the income earned by a spouse, which we've already touched on. Long story, short: don't fall for the starving artist bit. According to the Irion commission story I linked to in another post, some of the quite literally world-class craftspeople who worked on the commission have left the trade altogether. Now, that's a real shame. A way bigger shame than Schwarz leaving a magazine or Underwood retiring from his show.

[Doug Hepler]

Charles,

You wrote<Don't disagree with a word of it in theory>

I don't mean this as a theory. Craftsmen who stick with their craft have made a real choice to recognize their values and do the work they prefer. They deserve respect and admiration. I think your point is how hard it is to even clear a median income as a custom furniture maker. Of course I get that. I think of Sam Maloof, Tage Frid, many others. Outstanding craftsmen but AFAIK not rich. If a craftsman can supplement his income more power to him or her. Peter Korn describes many ventures to keep himself solvent. Yes, many write, teach, etc. That's great.

My point is wider than woodworking. The well-working of our society depends (IMO) on people who will do the work they love instead of trying to maximize their wealth. We do not respect them enough. We seem to respect greedy and selfish people instead just because(?) they are rich.

Doug

[Mark Rainey]

Charles,

You wrote<Don't disagree with a word of it in theory>

I don't mean this as a theory. Craftsmen who stick with their craft have made a real choice to recognize their values and do the work they prefer. They deserve respect and admiration. I think your point is how hard it is to even clear a median income as a custom furniture maker. Of course I get that. I think of Sam Maloof, Tage Frid, many others. Outstanding craftsmen but AFAIK not rich. If a craftsman can supplement his income more power to him or her. Peter Korn describes many ventures to keep himself solvent. Yes, many write, teach, etc. That's great.

My point is wider than woodworking. The well-working of our society depends (IMO) on people who will do the work they love instead of trying to maximize their wealth. We do not respect them enough. We seem to respect greedy and selfish people instead just because(?) they are rich.

Doug Exactly Doug! We know our society works best when good people do good work and earn a fair living. When the goal is money, problems ensue. There are good physicians who want to do a good job and help people and get fair renumeration and there are physicians who want to earn a big salary by billing patients for services. Jessica is surviving as an artisan. It is OK for an artisan to be dismayed when they see some "celebrity" woodworker who is not a true artisan. Artisans are dwindling and our society will suffer. I love Paul Sellers, but I am sure some chuckle when he taps on his bevel edge chisel when mortising. Roy Underhill is entertaining, educational, and amazing, but I am sure some chuckle when he tears out planing endgrain and bleeds over his work. I respect what these celebrities do and I thank them for helping me in my hobby. And Jessica deserves our respect as a fine woodworking artisan.

[Edwin Santos]

Charles,

You wrote<Don't disagree with a word of it in theory>

I don't mean this as a theory. Craftsmen who stick with their craft have made a real choice to recognize their values and do the work they prefer. They deserve respect and admiration. I think your point is how hard it is to even clear a median income as a custom furniture maker. Of course I get that. I think of Sam Maloof, Tage Frid, many others. Outstanding craftsmen but AFAIK not rich. If a craftsman can supplement his income more power to him or her. Peter Korn describes many ventures to keep himself solvent. Yes, many write, teach, etc. That's great.

My point is wider than woodworking. The well-working of our society depends (IMO) on people who will do the work they love instead of trying to maximize their wealth. We do not respect them enough. We seem to respect greedy and selfish people instead just because(?) they are rich.

Doug

I should let Charles speak for himself, but what I interpret from his post is that the choices you reference are coming with greater and greater sacrifice than ever before. Or stated differently, the price of the choice is rising. It's really a shame, but it seems to be the way the jungle is evolving.

I know a guy who decided to chuck the corporate world to pursue his dream of metalworking art. After a year or so of this, he and his family were miserable from the financial pressure and you know what? He stopped loving metalworking. Neither this guy nor his family were the types I would call money hungry or greedy, but the sacrifices and constant pressure hurt all the same.
Like I say, it's a shame, but simply pursuing what you love may not be as realistic as it should be.

Sometimes I look at this through the lens of a parent. None of us wants to see our kids struggle. I'm tempted to tell my kids to just pursue what you love, but the Dad in me worries about them being conspired to a life of hardship so I'm advising them to think with their head as well as their heart in terms of a career choice.

Are there artisan hand tool woodworkers who can do it and make a good living? You bet, and some of them are here on this forum. But my hat's off to them because I think they're in the minority who are beating the odds. It's possible to beat the stock market, and it's possible to walk out of a Las Vegas casino a winner, but the odds are not with you. If you're plying a trade that broader society doesn't value as much as we wish it did, the odds are not with you either.

All this said, I think it would work if a person's personal situation supports it i.e. spousal income, inherited wealth, living in a low cost location, supplemental income, hooking into a good market for your products, etc. Without any of these advantages, it's a tough call... As I say, the cost of the choice is what's escalating.
I for one am cheering on those who make that choice, but I wouldn't recommend it to my kids.

[Doug Hepler]

Mark, thank you for getting my point. So we agree on the important part. I'm not familiar with Jessica's work, but if she chooses to work professionally at her craft in this age of Ikea, she deserves recognition and respect.

Regarding the original issue of this thread, yes, it's OK for an artisan to be dismayed by the fame of a "celebrity". I don't hold people responsible for their feelings, for example, jealousy. They are responsible, however, for what they do as a result of those feelings, for example dismissing someone's work based on who he/she is instead of the quality of the work itself. That kind of thinking is at the root of all kinds of prejudice, sexism, racism, etc. That was my original objection to Jessica's comment way back on page 1 and I think it is worth making again.

All the best

Doug

[Kory Cassel]

And Jessica deserves our respect as a fine woodworking artisan.
Mark, as I stated before, I respect Jessica's point of view on 'instructional media' in a very real way because I share it about media in my own occupation. Furthermore I'm delighted to hear about anyone making a living producing fine furniture and they have a good measure of my respect at the mere prospect.

How far are you proposing that respect to extend?

Are you suggesting that when Jessica goes on to say that Chris Schwarz is not important because the English speaking hobbyist community is quite small, that all contributions originate from the formally trained professional, ask whether it is possible to sell furniture in the States without a certificate or diploma...that the hobbyist members of the forum are not qualified enough to comment? I believe another member posted something like that idea.

In the face of the numbers posted on the thread and the bald facts of the existence of many world class craftsman who happen to be self taught without diplomas, I think she carried her point too far to try to 'win' her original argument. If you're proposing that we're not ever allowed to disagree with the professional woodworker here on the forum, even on discussions unrelated to technical aspects of the craft, that seems like too much respect for the forum to survive as an open interchange of thoughts and ideas. Unlike a lot who have disagreed with Jessica, I see her original point, she did not have to win that argument with me.

[Mark Rainey]

Doug/Kory, I understand your viewpoints and value your contributions to this enjoyable debate. Happy woodworking! Mark

[Charles Guest]

Charles,

You wrote<Don't disagree with a word of it in theory>

I don't mean this as a theory. Craftsmen who stick with their craft have made a real choice to recognize their values and do the work they prefer. They deserve respect and admiration. I think your point is how hard it is to even clear a median income as a custom furniture maker. Of course I get that. I think of Sam Maloof, Tage Frid, many others. Outstanding craftsmen but AFAIK not rich. If a craftsman can supplement his income more power to him or her. Peter Korn describes many ventures to keep himself solvent. Yes, many write, teach, etc. That's great.

My point is wider than woodworking. The well-working of our society depends (IMO) on people who will do the work they love instead of trying to maximize their wealth. We do not respect them enough. We seem to respect greedy and selfish people instead just because(?) they are rich.

Doug

I would just love to hear, one time, one of these guys or gals acknowledge they couldn't 'practice their craft' or whatever lofty verbiage without the $250K salary their spouse earns that essentially underwrites the whole affair (essentially a glorified hobby?), or whatever amount, or wherever the real money came from or comes from. Relatively very few are making it on the woodworking alone but there seems to be a tendency to leave the assumption out there that they are. Easy to hide behind because it's 'not nice to ask' about such things.

On another note, with regard to woodworking instruction in general, if it's free or costs very little then you are likely getting what you paid for. Oh sure, you can get snippets and tips for next to nothing, but not wholistic instruction from start to finish on complex projects of real depth and breadth. For this, you have to pay thousands and thousands of dollars and rightly so.

[Warren Mickley]

I think you are living in fantasy land, Charles. People who have not studied mathematics or economics may not realize that half the families in the United States have incomes below the median. And many who make more than the median are putting money away and actually living on less than the median. If you cannot live comfortably on less than the median, I wouldn't know what to say.

[Frederick Skelly]

Several posts in this very long thread struck me as almost apologizing for the reaction folks had to Jessica's posts. Not sure if you guys mean it like that or if I'm misinterpreting you. Please forgive me if I've got all of you wrong. I'd like to circle back and clarify a little. For me, it wasn't the point that Jessica was making that inflamed some of the reaction early in this thread. It was the confrontational choice of her words, repeated more and more emphatically in each of her subsequent posts. At one point, there was also an undertone of what I (personally) took as anti-Americanism, which was amplified in another (overseas?) poster's response. Some of that was subsequently deleted. Like a lot of things, "it's not what you say, it's how you say it."

I give Jessica great credit for having the guts to back off when she realized what had happened (see post #88). From her later posts, it sounds like the initial topic just hit a sore spot with her - probably for the reasons you cite here. She's a skilled artisan with lots of formal training. I love seeing her work. She also has phenomenal english fluency. (That catches my attention because I'm horrible with languages.)

Fred

[Frederick Skelly]

I should let Charles speak for himself, but what I interpret from his post is that the choices you reference are coming with greater and greater sacrifice than ever before. Or stated differently, the price of the choice is rising. It's really a shame, but it seems to be the way the jungle is evolving.

I know a guy who decided to chuck the corporate world to pursue his dream of metalworking art. After a year or so of this, he and his family were miserable from the financial pressure and you know what? He stopped loving metalworking. Neither this guy nor his family were the types I would call money hungry or greedy, but the sacrifices and constant pressure hurt all the same.
Like I say, it's a shame, but simply pursuing what you love may not be as realistic as it should be.

Sometimes I look at this through the lens of a parent. None of us wants to see our kids struggle. I'm tempted to tell my kids to just pursue what you love, but the Dad in me worries about them being conspired to a life of hardship so I'm advising them to think with their head as well as their heart in terms of a career choice.

Are there artisan hand tool woodworkers who can do it and make a good living? You bet, and some of them are here on this forum. But my hat's off to them because I think they're in the minority who are beating the odds. It's possible to beat the stock market, and it's possible to walk out of a Las Vegas casino a winner, but the odds are not with you. If you're plying a trade that broader society doesn't value as much as we wish it did, the odds are not with you either.

All this said, I think it would work if a person's personal situation supports it i.e. spousal income, inherited wealth, living in a low cost location, supplemental income, hooking into a good market for your products, etc. Without any of these advantages, it's a tough call... As I say, the cost of the choice is what's escalating.
I for one am cheering on those who make that choice, but I wouldn't recommend it to my kids.

This is very well put Edwin. All good thoughts. Thanks.
Fred

[David Silverson]

Mark, this and some of your earlier posts struck me as almost apologizing for the reaction folks had to Jessica's posts. Not sure if you mean it like that or if I'm misinterpreting you. Please forgive me if I've got you wrong Sir. I'd like to circle back and clarify a little. For me, it wasn't the point that Jessica was making that inflamed some of the reaction early in this thread. It was the confrontational choice of her words, repeated more and more emphatically in each of her subsequent posts. At one point, there was also an undertone of what I (personally) took as anti-Americanism, which was amplified in another (overseas?) poster's response. Some of that was subsequently deleted. Like a lot of things, "it's not what you say, it's how you say it."

I give Jessica great credit for having the guts to back off when she realized what had happened (see post #88). From her later posts, it sounds like the initial topic just hit a sore spot with her - probably for the reasons you cite here. She's a skilled artisan with lots of formal training. I love seeing her work. She also has phenomenal english fluency. (That catches my attention because I'm horrible with languages.)

Fred
I agree tone is important but it is often difficult to read and misread on internet postings. I think that many non American’s posts are not so much anti-American but anti American exceptionalism which is often so prevalent. On topic I have followed and enjoyed Schwarz and others like him as a hobbyist and appreciate all that they have brought to our wonderful hobby.

[Frederick Skelly]

I agree tone is important but it is often difficult to read and misread on internet postings. I think that many non American’s posts are not so much anti-American but anti American exceptionalism which is often so prevalent. On topic I have followed and enjoyed Schwarz and others like him as a hobbyist and appreciate all that they have brought to our wonderful hobby.

Thanks David. That may all apply here. I could only speak for myself and my own initial reaction.
Fred

Edit: I just realized David responded to my initial post where I mentioned Mark specifically. I subsequently corrected that because I didn't intend to single-out Mark.

[Pete Taran]

Fred,

I don't think you are alone. I had the same reaction, and judging from the many folks who PMd me, many others did as well. Having said that, seems like this thread has run it's course.

[Frederick Skelly]

Fred,

I don't think you are alone. I had the same reaction, and judging from the many folks who PMd me, many others did as well. Having said that, seems like this thread has run it's course.

I definitely agree Pete. :)

[Charles Guest]

I get irritated with those woodworker/writers/teachers who make it sound as if they're jutting their jaw into the winds of modernity when somebody else is paying, or already payed, for the privilege of them doing so. It's disingenuous. Not all are guilty of this, but enough are. If mama is covering the family's nut, you aren't jutting your jaw into the winds of anything but wishful thinking. Maybe acknowledge this by cutting back on the treacly philosophical prose a little.

[Jessica de Boer]

I think your point is how hard it is to even clear a median income as a custom furniture maker.

It really isn't that hard, at least not in Germany, France, the Netherlands or Belgium (especially Belgium). I have 3 people working for me full time and I pay them a good salary. I think the mistake a lot of furniture makers make is that they only want to make exclusive custom furniture but you also have to be willing to take on other work. Not too long ago I landed a big job for a hotel to make new cabinets, night stands, closets and tables. Not exactly exciting work and it can get repetitive but it paid the bills and then some. Exclusive, custom furniture isn't something that you do every day so have to find things to fill the gaps.

[Dave Lehnert]

Anyone who can get 12 pages of post about them on here has made an impact on woodworking. Like it or not.

I live in Cincinnati the home of Popular Woodworking Magazine and Chris Schwarz.
I have talked to him many times. He is a very likable guy. In my opinion he is a guy who loves woodworking. Does research on the subject and writes about it to share his knowledge. Been to events where he had his Anarchist’s Tool Chest on display full of tools. Just let anyone pick up a tool and look them over. How can you not like that?
Kinda getting a laugh out of all of this.

399243399244

[Pete Taran]

But Dave, he's not a professional, so nothing he has done has any value or importance. He is to be vilified and looked down upon as someone who is merely an INTERLOPER in the New World Woodworking Order. I'm sure they throw darts at his likeness when the Professional Cabal meets to hold their important deliberations.

I'm only kidding...or am I?

[Mark Rainey]

The real world artisans are authentic. They are professionals who share their information with the hobby woodworker because they love the craft. They are the grass roots. I admire & respect them. The “celebrities” are very entertaining, informative, & valuable, as many have pointed out in the previous pages. They ( except for a highly skilled, generous Englishman ) do not answer my tough hand tool construction challenges I post on this forum. The artisans do. I am thankful.

[Edwin Santos]

Stewart,


399242


But Dave, he's not a professional, so nothing he has done has any value or importance. He is to be vilified and looked down upon as someone who is merely an INTERLOPER in the New World Woodworking Order. I'm sure they throw darts at his likeness when the Professional Cabal meets to hold their important deliberations.

I'm only kidding...or am I?

Kidding, no.
Fanning flames, yes.

[Pete Taran]

Edwin,

I like the emphasize the absurd with absurdity. And besides, to fan flames there must already be a fire!

[Kory Cassel]

I'm curious, Warren, Jessica, do you refer to yourselves as 'artisans' or is that Mark's word? Is it only the single income stream 'professional', or can people who also make fine furniture be considered 'artisan'? Are there any craftsmen that you respect even if they do not meet the requirement of subsisting solely on profit earned from their woodworking? Do all craftsmen require a formal training to be an 'artisan'? I would like more dialog from the professional crowd about what it means to be professional and why Chris Schwarz doesn't matter.

[Frederick Skelly]

Anyone who can get 12 pages of post about them on here has made an impact on woodworking. Like it or not.

I live in Cincinnati the home of Popular Woodworking Magazine and Chris Schwarz.
I have talked to him many times. He is a very likable guy. In my opinion he is a guy who loves woodworking. Does research on the subject and writes about it to share his knowledge. Been to events where he had his Anarchist’s Tool Chest on display full of tools. Just let anyone pick up a tool and look them over. How can you not like that?
Kinda getting a laugh out of all of this.

399243399244

Good post Dave. Thanks for sharing your first hand experiences with CS.

[Mark Rainey]

Edwin,

I like the emphasize the absurd with absurdity. And besides, to fan flames there must already be a fire!
The firestarter post #11 “haters love to hate”. An ad hominem attack.

[Pete Taran]

You mean like in post #2? I see now. Appreciate the insight.

[Mark Rainey]

You are welcome Pete. Post #2 shares a professional woodworkers frustration with working under time constraints, and envy of the “celebrity” woodworker. Maybe not nice, but honest. No hate. You are an expert in saws & I value all you bring to the forum. Thank you for sharing your expertise.

[steven c newman]

Imagine the fun thread..IF Paul Sellers ever started doing "Demos" at.....Home Depot....

[Doug Hepler]

The Woodworking Forum

This forum’s a place you can go
To find woodworkers, all in the know,
Who can give you advice
How to make your work nice
And get all of your ducks in a row.

But you’ll have to maintain the right slant.
They mean well, but some people can’t
Just follow the threads
Without losing their heads,
And sometimes they’d rather just rant.

One discussion had lasted a while
In classic old internet style
The subject was glue
Opinions just flew
With many OT by a mile.

And then, of course, someone was curt
To another, whose feelings were hurt.
Then counter-attack!
Each had to strike back!
The thread soon descended to dirt.

And so, the point of this rhyme
Is to offer a strict paradigm
While a forum’s not college
It is about knowledge
These fights are a waste of my time.

If you feel in the mood for a spat
Try elsewhere -- we’ve no use for that
Too bad you were dissed
Don’t get your pants in a twist
[Don’t hijack the thread
Send a PM instead]
While we others continue our chat.

All best wishes for peace on earth to men of good will.

Doug

[Jim Koepke]

Very good Doug.


All best wishes for peace on earth to men of good will.

And to all a good night.

jtk

[Derek Cohen]

First class Doug!
http://www.i2symbol.com/pictures/emojis/3/b/1/d/3b1d2e746487f864c68fdb2caa49e5d7_256.png (https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&source=images&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwjJxOnX2LDfAhVGd6wKHR5dD44QjRx6BAgBEAU&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.i2symbol.com%2Fstickers%2Fsmi leys%2Fcheer-happy-clapping-hands-3b1d2e746487f864c68fdb2caa49e5d7&psig=AOvVaw3NzrWDFY7mq1-bSK5A5D1C&ust=1545473722000394)

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Jessica de Boer]

I'm curious, Warren, Jessica, do you refer to yourselves as 'artisans' or is that Mark's word? Is it only the single income stream 'professional', or can people who also make fine furniture be considered 'artisan'? Are there any craftsmen that you respect even if they do not meet the requirement of subsisting solely on profit earned from their woodworking? Do all craftsmen require a formal training to be an 'artisan'? I would like more dialog from the professional crowd about what it means to be professional and why Chris Schwarz doesn't matter.

If I had to put a label on myself I'd say I'm a furniture maker and part time artisan. Like I said, exclusive custom furniture isn't something you can survive on, you have to be willing to take on other jobs as well. They may not be glamorous and sometimes downright boring but you do what you have to do to keep the lights on. That willingness is what separates the professional from the amateur in my opinion. I think a lot of people have this very romantic idea of what it's like to be a professional furniture maker. Like you're working in a candle light lit workshop deep in the woods while you're surrounded by cute woodland critters and fairies who serenade you.

And yes, there are several craftsmen who do other work as well to make ends meet who I highly respect.

Lastly, I never said Swarz doesn't matter. I just pointed out there are craftsmen and women all over the world who have never heard of him. I'm sure he contributed a lot to wood working in the US but that's not the case for other parts of the world. There really is no need to worship him.

[lowell holmes]

I'm sure he contributed a lot to wood working in the US but that's not the case for other parts of the world. There really is no need to worship him.
That statement is balderdash:)

[Bill Carey]

excellent Doug - Finally a post worth reading in this thread. And I bet Chris has gone thru several tubs of buttered popcorn already.

[Reinis Kanders]

One could argue that if one is going to take on a work that is not that much fun and does it to pay the bills, then it might more efficient to just go out and earn the money in engineering, doctoring, software, etc. Those professions pay enough to make it worthwhile to put up with some "drudgery" and do leave time for hobbies later.


If I had to put a label on myself I'd say I'm a furniture maker and part time artisan. Like I said, exclusive custom furniture isn't something you can survive on, you have to be willing to take on other jobs as well. They may not be glamorous and sometimes downright boring but you do what you have to do to keep the lights on. That willingness is what separates the professional from the amateur in my opinion. I think a lot of people have this very romantic idea of what it's like to be a professional furniture maker. Like you're working in a candle light lit workshop deep in the woods while you're surrounded by cute woodland critters and fairies who serenade you.

And yes, there are several craftsmen who do other work as well to make ends meet who I highly respect.

Lastly, I never said Swarz doesn't matter. I just pointed out there are craftsmen and women all over the world who have never heard of him. I'm sure he contributed a lot to wood working in the US but that's not the case for other parts of the world. There really is no need to worship him.

[Simon MacGowen]

There really is no need to worship him.

Social media have successfully turned many grown-ups (in all kinds of fields, not just woodworking) into reliving their teen years (or teen years they had missed)...in the form of idolization. It is brutal for me to see some of the comments and remarks that those adults (some, of course, are woodworkers) leave in various platforms about their emperors or empresses who have no clothes. To the point that they probably would have believed in any April Fools' joke their masters might come up with as truth. Just in case someone pointed out that the king or queen was naked, they would be immediately banished as trolls!

Simon

[steven c newman]

2 Questions for everyone....

One: How many would even go to a meet & Greet with The Schwarz.......

Two: What happens when we run out of popcorn, trying to even read this thread? Acting like it was Bob Villa doing that Highland Woodworking show......and telling you to do tenons first..

[Bruce Haugen]

excellent Doug - Finally a post worth reading in this thread. And I bet Chris has gone thru several tubs of buttered popcorn already.

Threads like this are why he quit reading woodworking forums years ago.

[Simon MacGowen]

Threads like this are why he quit reading woodworking forums years ago.

He, as well as some other vendors, did not stop reading forums; he has quit participating in forum discussions.

Simon

[Tony Wilkins]

2 Questions for everyone....

One: How many would even go to a meet & Greet with The Schwarz.......

Two: What happens when we run out of popcorn, trying to even read this thread? Acting like it was Bob Villa doing that Highland Woodworking show......and telling you to do tenons first..

I woukd definitely go to a meet and greet.

[Frederick Skelly]

I'd do a meet and greet, based on what Dave said about him being very personable.

[J. Greg Jones]

Lost Art Press, and by extension Chris Schwarz, have a open house once a month at their Covington KY storefront. Next one is scheduled for January 12.

[Patrick Walsh]

I don’t get humans,

I observe something within the Woodworking sub culture.

I am a cabinet maker by trade. Previous I was a finish carpenter. I make furniture in my free time. I don’t have much of it. I can make anything I want to make bad enough without and prior knowledge. I just figure it out. I may not be as versed as say a dedicated furniture maker but nor is a furniture maker of the the shaker tradition versed in classic federal style the same.

My point.

When I was a a finish carpenter I noticed a hierarchy and or attitude amongs finish carpenters vrs general carpenters as though the finish carpenter was someone of more value. The same for the jump form finish carpenter to cabinet maker.

Now I work in a mill building full of woodworkers of various dissapline. We have exhibit makers, furniture makers, wood art makers and cabinet makers.

The wood art makers have attitude as though what they do is “art” and everything else in beneath them. The furniture makers the same attitude toward cabinet makers and maybe the cabinet makers the same attitude over the exhibit makers.

I see it this way. We all share something in common more than we differ. We all like to and or build things all day tommake ends meet and largely by choice as it is what suits us best. Be it conscious or subconscious I think it has been a decision and a choice for most all of us to make things of wood to pay the bills. Again the point is we have far more in common than we differ yet we focus on what makes us different.

Are there drastic differences with regard to things that kind of correlate as work from less refined work to more refined work sure!

But man why do woodworkers have to carry themself with such a largely arrogant elitist attitude the further one works toward the utmost refinement.

It’s really a turn off.

If nothing else it revails the most ugly side of most all of us a humans. Selfishness and a failure to be able to see beyond one self or thinking I am someohow better than or more worth the next guy be it because of skill, money, address, title or whatever.

I try to best to see things this way. We all have to go #2nand most all of us use a toilet. We all have to eat the same food and breath the same air. We all hurt when someone or something goes south. We all get happy when we experience something good.

So what they he’ll do we choose to focus on how we are different vrs the same as largely the difference between us is much smaller than the similarities.

Ok last edit and end of rent.

WE ALL HAVE SOMETHING TO LEARN FROM EACH OTHER OPEN YOUR EARS AND YOUR HEART.

[Frederick Skelly]

Again the point is we have far more in common than we differ yet we focus on what makes us different.

So what they he’ll do we choose to focus on how we are different vrs the same as largely the difference between us is much smaller than the similarities.

Patrick,
Good post and a good reminder, especially at this time of year.

No real point here. Just some observations based on your post........ I think it is wired into humans to see a pecking order. Most humans are pack animals, and in packs there is a definite hierarchy. Look at your dogs, horses and of course wolves. In another way, humans are still very much "tribes" - you are in or you are out, you are like us or you are different, etc. We emphasize the difference because our (insert tribe, religon, political party, belief system, etc) makes us "better" and therefore we are "right" to do what we want and "they" are bad and just have to suffer if they don't like "our" way. Some people fight these pack and tribal tendencies better than most of us. In my mind, those are the Peacemakers.

Merry Christmas. Especially to The Peacemakers.
Fred

[Mark Rainey]

Patrick, a good post and good will. Fred, good insight which I agree with. It is the nature of the beast to distinguish himself from his compatriots. Call it pride, power...John Adams said as long as we have someone below us we are content. Sad but true. Life is full of unavoidable contradictions. It is the time of the year to make sure we pursue the ideals you articulated Patrick.

[Lee Schierer]

Guys, let's stay on topic and not venture into areas that are contrary to the TOS.

[Jim Foster]

Hobelbanke is Dutch I think? (last book in the Amazon link below) So, CS is known beyond the realm of English. If you take a quick look at the link below you will also see his book reviews on Amazon are all very high. I think part of the reason for his high reviews are that he has a gift for sharing tips, techniques, project presentations, etc... in a way that seems achievable and more straightforward than many woodworking writers of previous generations.

Woodworking is the 2nd largest hobby in the world. Typically anyone that helps people to enjoy a hobby or make a seemingly impossible process achievable, gets high grades. Chris has and continues to help hobby woodworkers learn and more greatly enjoy their hobby (in large numbers, due in part to the sheer number of people involved in the hobby), especially as it pertains to the use of hand tools in woodworking. In every sense Chris Schwarz is a professional woodworker, or he would not be building commissioned pieces as well as writer, teacher blogger, etc...

There are a number of hobbyist and professional craftsman and craftswomen :) on this forum that are more talented at making furniture than Chris, but very few of them have the gift or desire to share their passion and journey the way Chris is. I see no reason why anyone would want to chip away at him or what he is doing to help support our passion for woodworking

Link below to book reviews and Dutch titled book

https://www.amazon.com/Christopher-Schwarz/e/B001JRZTJA

[Edwin Santos]

Hobelbanke is Dutch I think? (last book in the Amazon link below)

Woodworking is the 2nd largest hobby in the world.



Jim - What is your source for this statement?

[Jim Foster]

Edwin,

I can't remember the source, it was yrs ago that I researched this for a project. Gardening was listed as the largest hobby, woodworking, included anything using a hammer, nail and wood, etc... Framing of a room in the house, making a simple planter box, anything cutting or joining wood, pounding a nail was included as a woodworking hobby. My recollection is that a more pure woodworking hobbyist would have objected to the breadth of what types of construction or making was included as the woodworking hobby.

[Simon MacGowen]

Jim - What is your source for this statement?

We need to define hobby first before we could discuss which one(s) are the most popular hobbies. I often see reading listed as a hobby, but not everyone looks at it as a hobby like sewing, fishing or woodworking which requires skills or physical involvement.

Google gave me different lists, and in one of the lists, crafts (which I assume to include woodworking) is in the top 10. But the one that does spell out Woodworking as a hobby, Woodworking is outside the Top 5 range.

Unscientifically, about 10% in my small neighborhood have serious woodworking machines (tablesaw, planer, etc.) in their shops/garages. I see bikes a lot more...50% or more.

Simon

[Edwin Santos]

Edwin,

I can't remember the source, it was yrs ago that I researched this for a project. Gardening was listed as the largest hobby, woodworking, included anything using a hammer, nail and wood, etc... Framing of a room in the house, making a simple planter box, anything cutting or joining wood, pounding a nail was included as a woodworking hobby. My recollection is that a more pure woodworking hobbyist would have objected to the breadth of what types of construction or making was included as the woodworking hobby.


We need to define hobby first before we could discuss which one(s) are the most popular hobbies. I often see reading listed as a hobby, but not everyone looks at it as a hobby like sewing, fishing or woodworking which requires skills or physical involvement.

Google gave me different lists, and in one of the lists, crafts (which I assume to include woodworking) is in the top 10. But the one that does spell out Woodworking as a hobby, Woodworking is outside the Top 5 range.

Unscientifically, about 10% in my small neighborhood have serious woodworking machines (tablesaw, planer, etc.) in their shops/garages. I see bikes a lot more...50% or more.

Simon

Very enlightening if it's true. I always thought woodworking was a bit of a narrow niche compared to things like sewing, gourmet cooking, photography, wine collecting, fishing, reading/book clubs, auto enthusiasts, home theater/audio, etc. Maybe it's more mainstream than I thought.

I think woodworking varies by country a lot. It was surprising to me to find out during a trip to Japan that despite the deep history and tradition with woodworking there, very few people in the general population pursue it as a hobby. There was nothing even resembling a Rockler or Woodcraft there. I think some of this might have to do with the fact that space is a big premium and woodworking requires at least some space, quite a bit if you have stationary tools.

[Jessica de Boer]

Hobelbanke is Dutch I think?

It's German. I should know because I'm German ;)

[Roger Feeley]

He has a schtick of contagious energy that makes you want to get in the shop and do something.

Good point Mel,

Imparting information in such a way that you come away saying to yourself, "Yeah, I can do that!" is something of a gift.

Some authors kind of rub your nose in how much better they are than you. You come away impressed but intimidated. Chris isn't that way.

[Rob Luter]

Good point Mel,

Imparting information in such a way that you come away saying to yourself, "Yeah, I can do that!" is something of a gift.

Some authors kind of rub your nose in how much better they are than you. You come away impressed but intimidated. Chris isn't that way.

Agreed. In the two occasions that I've had personal interaction with Chris, his MO was more that of a servant leader than an authority. Kind of like "I used to at this but I managed to crack the code, let me share the solution with you".

[George Wall]

Chris Schwarz's company, Lost Art Press, has published titles from several professional woodworkers from around the world, including Nancy Hiller, Peter Follansbee, Peter Galbert, the late Jennie Alexander, and more recently, David Savage, among others. LAP's translations of the two classic Roubo texts have won multiple publishing awards.

Schwarz is also one of the principals at Crucible Tool, a small artisan tool making company. Schwarz himself will tell you he is more publisher than woodworker; his formal education was in publishing after all, and he admits he sort of "fell into" editing woodworking magazines.

While I don't worship him, I also don't think it's accurate to dispute the claim that he's has contributed much to the woodworking community, even if that contribution is targeted to a specific subset of the community at large. Of course, no-one is required to read, listen to, or follow him.

[Warren Mickley]

Chris Schwarz's company, Lost Art Press, has published titles from several professional woodworkers from around the world, including Nancy Hiller, Peter Follansbee, Peter Galbert, the late Jennie Alexander, and more recently, David Savage, among others. LAP's translations of the two classic Roubo texts have won multiple publishing awards.

Schwarz is also one of the principals at Crucible Tool, a small artisan tool making company. Schwarz himself will tell you he is more publisher than woodworker; his formal education was in publishing after all, and he admits he sort of "fell into" editing woodworking magazines.

While I don't worship him, I also don't think it's accurate to dispute the claim that he's has contributed much to the woodworking community, even if that contribution is targeted to a specific subset of the community at large. Of course, no-one is required to read, listen to, or follow him.

Popular Science hired Joe Brown as a new editor in chief in 2016. The publisher said "He has exactly the qualities we sought out for the leader of the brand: a nose for a great story, strong leadership, and a wealth of experience elegantly handling website strategy and digital operations."

It could be that, a dozen years down the road, basement scientists all across America will be saying how much he inspired them and contributed to science. I doubt that any of the Phd scientists in my family have ever heard of him.

Joe Brown has a bachelor degree in Literature.

[Frederick Skelly]

It could be that, a dozen years down the road, basement scientists all across America will be saying how much he inspired them and contributed to science. I doubt that any of the Phd scientists in my family have ever heard of him.

I don't see what's wrong with this Warren. If Brown succeeds in getting people interested in science and engineering, more people will formally study science or work quietly in the basements as tinkerers and inventors. No, the PhDs will never hear of him, and if they did might turn up their noses as some PhDs are wont to do. But that doesn't make Brown's contribution less real - if he gets people interested in science.

To me, it is similar for Schwartz and hobbyists. It's a pretty sure thing that I will never reach the levels of perfection that someone formally trained as an apprentice will achieve. But I can learn from the man's books, as I would learn from a book you'd write Sir (if we ever talk you into writing one :) ).

Fred

[George Wall]

Popular Science hired Joe Brown as a new editor in chief in 2016. The publisher said "He has exactly the qualities we sought out for the leader of the brand: a nose for a great story, strong leadership, and a wealth of experience elegantly handling website strategy and digital operations."

It could be that, a dozen years down the road, basement scientists all across America will be saying how much he inspired them and contributed to science. I doubt that any of the Phd scientists in my family have ever heard of him.

Joe Brown has a bachelor degree in Literature.



My assumption is that most PhD scientists either don't read Popular Science, or, if they do, they do it more out of curiosity than looking for information vital to their ongoing research. But, if Joe Brown started his own company and got leading scientists in a particular field published, including translations of key historical scientific texts, his contributions to the field would be acknowledged. And, of course, criticized by some.

[Hilton Ralphs]

It could be that, a dozen years down the road, basement scientists all across America will be saying how much he inspired them and contributed to science.

There may be thousands of young scientists today who were inspired by Joe Brown's published articles.



I doubt that any of the Phd scientists in my family have ever heard of him.
I doubt Joe Brown knows any of them either...

[Pete Taran]

I fail to understand the narrative of this thread. For those who haven't had the time to read it in it's entirety:

1) Someone mentioned they saw an article that Chris wrote
2) Someone else wrote about him criticizing him for not being held to professional standards and timelines
3) Many defended him, various food fights ensued with diversions into discussions of how the internet was started and by whom
4) Many pointed out that Chris never claimed to be a professional or even a woodworker, but someone who likes to write and teach about the craft
5) Despite these many twists and turns, people still debate his worth, for reasons known only to them

At this point, it seems to me that Chris is entitled to do what he wants. In America, it's a free country. Chris need not seek permission from us or anyone about how to live his life or how to spend it. If you appreciate what Chris does (as I do), then good for you. If you don't, please devote your life to doing better and explain to us how you've accomplished that fact. To belittle and carp on a man who is going about his merry way is ridiculous. He doesn't deserve it, did nothing to ask for it, and it serves no useful purpose except to somehow satisfy some deep seated inadequacy in the criticizer.

I've tried to be as "nice" as possible in this summation. Can we all please just let it go and stop being so hypercritical of everything poor Chris has ever done, or will do in his life?

All the best and Happy New Year

[Mike Brady]

Pete has a correct perspective on this thread. It went wrong right from the thread title, which contained misinformation. And you wonder why so few well-known individuals post here, Pete Taran being an exception?

[Edwin Santos]

I have a theory that there have been some posts in this thread that must have been deleted by moderators.
Otherwise there are a lot of parts of this discussion that seem unusually irrational, but for missing posts to which they are responding. Kind of like a Tower of Babel situation.
Just a theory.
Maybe the mods should just close the thread at this point.

[Pete Taran]

Edwin,

It's not a theory, many posts were deleted for apparently violating the TOS. However, it seems selective in it's application. The critical comment that starts it is allowed to stand, but the critical comments rebutting it are excised. Having said that, SMC is not a Constitutional Republic. The owners and mods get to make the rules and enforce them as they see fit. You can either tolerate it, or go elsewhere it seems.

[Pat Barry]

I have a theory that there have been some posts in this thread that must have been deleted by moderators.
Otherwise there are a lot of parts of this discussion that seem unusually irrational, but for missing posts to which they are responding. Kind of like a Tower of Babel situation.
Just a theory.
Maybe the mods should just close the thread at this point.

I'm surprised this thread lasted 15 pages.

[Simon MacGowen]

Maybe the mods should just close the thread at this point.

How come every time in any long thread of discussion, there is always a suggestion like this? If the request came from the one who created the thread, I could understand. Shouldn't we find out if the OP wants his or her thread closed first?

Please stay away from the kitchen if you can't stand the heat. And there is no heat in the latest exchanges!

I don't think Warren would think very highly of Norm Abram's contributions -- more a carpenter than a furniture maker to some of his viewers -- to the woodworking field, but that's ok because his perspective would be as valid as any of ours because we don't necessarily have the same assessment criteria.

The last thing I want to see is everyone has only one identical perspective, or we all must cut wood in a certain way.

Simon

[Edwin Santos]

Edwin,

It's not a theory, many posts were deleted for apparently violating the TOS. However, it seems selective in it's application. The critical comment that starts it is allowed to stand, but the critical comments rebutting it are excised. Having said that, SMC is not a Constitutional Republic. The owners and mods get to make the rules and enforce them as they see fit. You can either tolerate it, or go elsewhere it seems.

Pete,
Got it. I wasn't raising it as a matter of principle, but more as a practical matter. If a discussion is ongoing and there are holes in one or both sides of the conversation, the subsequent posts can become nonsensical or at least appear unjustified. As it is done currently, there is no way for the reader to know that anything has been removed.

Maybe rather than removing posts entirely, the content of the offending post should be removed with a moderator's note inserted in its place, like what they sometimes do here when they edit (not remove) posts for content. At least then there would be a complete trail and maybe some downstream confusion could be avoided.

Admittedly this one has gotten more convoluted than most.....

This is just a suggestion. I fully understand it's for the owner to make the rules.