Lumber Grades / Kitchen Table

[Jim Riseborough]

So I was going to use some 2x12's to make a farmhouse type kitchen table. HD and LOWES basically have #2 SYP in stock. If I go to a lumber yard, or order #1, or even Select, do you think it would be worth while, or should I just rummage through the #2 stuff they have and find ones that satisfy my liking? I assume the higher grades have less knots.

Any thoughts, or should I look at other lumber? I want the table to be about 4' wide, 12' long. I figured about 5 2x12's, jointed down and glued up. Not sure about the ends, if breadboard, or just leave grain exposed.

[Jim Becker]

Appearance is key...so that's what needs to ultimately guide your final choice. That said, please keep in mind that "construction lumber", while "kiln dried" is substantially wetter than is normally best for furniture building. What you might want to consider is ordering some nice VG Douglas Fir from a "real" lumber yard for your project as that can be had in fully kiln dried state. Yes, it costs more. But it will make your life easier for your project. If you want pine, you can also likely obtain white pine or yellow pine the same way that is properly dried.

[Robert Hazelwood]

If you are very picky you can find some decent 2x12s at the box store, but the best 2x12s there are worse than the worst 2x12s I got from the local lumberyard. I assume they were #1 grade but I'm not 100% sure. The lumberyard 2x12s were roughsawn, a full 12" wide and about 2-1/8" thick. I bought a couple hundred boardfeet and there were only one or two knots in the bunch, perfectly straight otherwise. Also, they were properly kiln dried instead of half-dried to 19% like construction lumber. If I recall I paid about $1.95 bd/ft, the box store 2x12x16 works out to about $1.10 or so.

If you are going to make the table out of flatsawn 2x12s, you will want either a substantial breadboard or some stout battens underneath. Each board will have a propensity to cup. If you go with construction lumber, stack and sticker it for a few weeks at least to let the MC drop some, that should help the pieces stay stable. But with the way they dry them, there will always be a few boards that behave oddly once you start working them, so it would be a good idea to buy a few extra and only use the most stable ones.

[Andrew Hughes]

Thats just too big of a table to consider wood from the borg. Why so wide? Im all in for long tables I think it’s great.but 4ft wide there’s going to be a lot of dead space in the middle. Hard to reach.

[Jim Riseborough]

Thats just too big of a table to consider wood from the borg. Why so wide? Im all in for long tables I think it’s great.but 4ft wide there’s going to be a lot of dead space in the middle. Hard to reach.

Got to have room for centerpieces right?? Im just building what I have been told to build. :)

[Jim Riseborough]

My other option is hard wood, I have plenty of what I think is ash, i dont think its 12' long though. Also was going for the thick look, but I could thicken up the eges on the outside.

I think I will inquire about some rough sawn pine too then. Thanks

[Richard Coers]

Bring a BORG 2x12 into your shop this time of year and you will probably be able to listen to it crack. Major shrinkage, cracking, cupping, etc. As mentioned, that's a huge table. Doug Fir weighs about 30lbs/ cubic foot air dried. That works out to 180 pounds. Hope whoever told you to make it that size will be willing to help you move it around the shop for sanding and handling!

[Tom Bender]

Pine is ok for a picnic table because it has gaps to accommodate movement and a stout frame to keep the top kinda in a plane. And the expectation is that a can of bottle will start up without falling over in most spots.

If you want to build something better than that you will want better wood. Three basic construction methods for the top.

1. Solid wood

2. Solid wood with breadboard ends

3. A stable core of sheet goods (plywood) laminated.

What supports that,,,about a hundred choices.

Not to seem negative but you might want to develop your skills on something smaller before you buy wood. Or at least mock up some parts.

a. Make a section of table top 4' wide x 6" long and work out your glueup and edge shape

b. Mock up each of the joints you plan to use.

c. Test your finishing schedule.

Woodworking is a long and rewarding journey. Enjoy it

Tom

[Mike Cutler]

Jim

One thing that you'll find about pine, or spruce, is that it is getting ever more difficult to buy it in quality grades.
I get the attraction of using construction grade lumber for tables, and right now it's very popular, but I personally wouldn't do it. If I was going to spend that amount of time building a table of the size you're detailing,I'd want to use higher quality materials.
I am really not trying to rain on your parade, but you're getting ready to do a lot of work. Make it worth it.
Craigslist sometimes has some great lumber deals for sale in the materials section. Worth a look.

PS
I might also buy 2 sheets of cheap luan and lay that table out so that the "client" realizes just how big it's going to be.

[Mike Berrevoets]

I built a trestle table out of No. 1 SYP that was special ordered from Menards. It was originally going to be hard maple but this was at the tail end of a long kitchen, dining, family room remodel project so I slapped something together that was cheap and functional as a prototype for the final hard maple table. The lumber looked pretty good and was cheap enough I could order extra and select the best. But, it still moved, a lot... like a real lot and in all directions. This table is in our kitchen and we have used it for a few years now. It seems to have stopped moving and we like the table but it was a frustrating experience working with even “better” grade construction lumber. Our table is about 6’ long and 36” wide. I think the frustration with wood movement would increase the longer the table gets. I got to the point where I said good enough and moved on so we had somewhere to eat.

[Bill Space]

Thats just too big of a table to consider wood from the borg. Why so wide? Im all in for long tables I think it’s great.but 4ft wide there’s going to be a lot of dead space in the middle. Hard to reach.

+1 on the width. Probably 20 years ago I built our dining room table which is 4' by 8'. Now and then I wonder if perhaps 40" wide might not have been better. Don't get me wrong. 4' wide is not that bad really, and with a table that is 12' long, might actually look better than a narrow one.

Just make sure you have ample space on the sides of the table for people to pass by while others are sitting at the table...

Bill

[Lyndon Klassen]

Why not get some good plywood. Many fewer problems.

[eugene thomas]

I built a workbenches out of Borg grade 2 x 4,'s but a table.. not going to happen.

[Jared Sankovich]

Doug Fir weighs about 30lbs/ cubic foot air dried. That works out to 180 pounds. Hope whoever told you to make it that size will be willing to help you move it around the shop for sanding and handling!

It wouldn't be that bad to move around, err well flip over. I built a 42x120 6/4 sapele (132" before final sizing) and i managed to move it around/flip it to sand and stain myself.

Though moving the finished table is a 2 person affair with the top and base moved independently.

That said, i'd use poplar before I killed myself trying to make wet 2x12s stay put in a table. At least around here 8/4 x 12"+ wide poplar in those lenghts is cheap and easy to find

[Darrell Bade]

I have a lumber yard by me that sells #1 grade construction lumber cheaper than the borgs sell #2. I don't even buy construction lumber at the borgs anymore. See if you have one by you.

[Mel Fulks]

He said FARM table. I have a real farm table from an old family farm house. Top is held down by cut nails. Lots of space
between each board. It's in the basement. Glued top is for deluxe model but you guys are still not happy !!

[Zac wingert]

I built a workbenches out of Borg grade 2 x 4,'s but a table.. not going to happen.

+1 my workbench is BORG 2x4’s, but not for a dining table.

[Jim Riseborough]

Thanks for all the advice.

I have a line on some old pine, guy says it was his Grandpas and been stored in his barn. 2"x8"x15ish ft rough cut. I have not looked at it, but pictures it looks pretty clear of knots. Now my issue is he wants 100$ a board! My calcs thats 5$ b/ft.

I would think this wood is stable, and should mill up real nice. He has 12 boards so about 250 b-ft. His price would be 1200$. I would think around 2$ b/ft is a good price, or 500$ for the lot. That might insult him.

I would have plenty of wood to do the top, and the supports.

Tonight I am going to take (2) 10' boards to the kitchen and lay them on existing table at 48" wide to see what feedback I get from them.

Thoughts?

[Andrew Hughes]

I think that’s a great idea Jim. A 42 inch wide table feels very wide to me I’m 6-3 tall so I have a pretty good boarding house reach. You make a good point about the center piece. I didn’t think about that I’m too focused on passing around the gravy boat and such.:)

The pine boards sounds like a good idea. I hope they look good if the grain is nicely balanced in the boards. With cathedral down the middle flowing out to rift on the edges. They would be worth fighting for.
If they are mostly flat sawn with crooks and grain running out on the edges then not so much.

Good luck with your build.

[Jim Riseborough]

I think that’s a great idea Jim. A 42 inch wide table feels very wide to me I’m 6-3 tall so I have a pretty good boarding house reach. You make a good point about the center piece. I didn’t think about that I’m too focused on passing around the gravy boat and such.:)

The pine boards sounds like a good idea. I hope they look good if the grain is nicely balanced in the boards. With cathedral down the middle flowing out to rift on the edges. They would be worth fighting for.
If they are mostly flat sawn with crooks and grain running out on the edges then not so much.

Good luck with your build.
Here is a pic of the boards, he said its middle stack only. He has come down to about 2.50 b-ft if I buy 200bf. Not sure I can get him lower. Think I will go for it, even If I dont use for table seems a ok deal for the wood. 398573

[Jim Becker]

$2.50 a board foot for "vintage" pine that's dry isn't a horrible price, honestly. It's likely going to be substantially better than any "fresh" pine you'll find without jumping through hoops, too...the older lumber grew slower and that's a good thing.

[Jim Riseborough]

$2.50 a board foot for "vintage" pine that's dry isn't a horrible price, honestly. It's likely going to be substantially better than any "fresh" pine you'll find without jumping through hoops, too...the older lumber grew slower and that's a good thing.

I agree. Pic of the grain. Looks nice and tight growth rings. I think it will be perfect for my build. In my location not alot of choice nearby without driving a hour or two. 398574

[Jim Becker]

Yea...that's what you want when you have the choice to get it!

[Andrew Hughes]

I agree they look pretty good.The flat grain isn’t perfectly centered but close enough.

[Zac wingert]

That looks like nice wood. Hard to find anything with the growth rings that close together. Please update this as you build, would love to see how it turns out. FYIe, I just did my dining table, 86 x 36, but with 4/4 top. Honestly, I’m not disappointed with the 4/4 top, but glad I laminated the legs 3 1/4 x 3 1/4. The beefy legs make up for the top. I used curly
mango, a wood readily available here in Hawaii, very expensive at $15/bf. all said though, the dining table costed about $750 and I had two boards about 1x9x72 left over. The legs took more wood than the top, but that’s why I couldn’t imagine what you were earlier gonna spend for borg wood or the pine at $5 bf. if you can, stick to traditional joinery, I built mine mortise and tenon for the legs and stretchers and it’s solid as a rock.

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[Mike Cutler]

Here is a pic of the boards, he said its middle stack only. He has come down to about 2.50 b-ft if I buy 200bf. Not sure I can get him lower. Think I will go for it, even If I dont use for table seems a ok deal for the wood. 398573

Jim
It's interesting how lumber prices vary on geographic region.
I stated earlier that getting clear, straight grain, pine boards is getting ever more difficult. Regardless of price, it's just not out there.
We often equate pine with "cheap", but that's not always the case.
Those look like nice boards that will yield the effect you're looking for.
I really think that without a ton of work, the 'Home Depot quality construction material would have looked like a rest stop picnic table in your house.

[Jim Riseborough]

Got just over 200 bf in 10 boards Sunday. Nice looking stuff once planed up.
Next step line it all up to get the best glue up for the top, and see what I have left for the structure.
Also have to build a planer sled, too wide for the jointer.

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[Andrew Hughes]

Good looking stuff Jim. It kinda looks like cedar how sure are you that’s its pine?

[Jim Becker]

That really is very nice looking lumber!

[Jim Riseborough]

Good looking stuff Jim. It kinda looks like cedar how sure are you that’s its pine?

I am pretty sure, not an aromatic cedar if it is!

[Matt Day]

That’s going to be the biggest planer sled ever!

[Jim Riseborough]

That’s going to be the biggest planer sled ever!

Im going to make it 9'-10' long. I will buy some 1" shelving from Menards, and then make a torsion type box about 4" thick, 10" wide and put non slip tape on top, and then run it through my planer. Not sure what else to do. Jointer is 8", but running a 10' board doesn't seem logical.

https://www.menards.com/main/storage-organization/shelves-shelving-units/shelving-boards/dakota-trade-prefinished-bullnose-shelf/1361270/p-1444428169012-c-5702.htm?tid=-2175322181871200686&ipos=1




(https://www.menards.com/main/outdoors/outdoor-recreation/camping/rv-accessories/camco-2-x-15-black-grip-tape/25401/p-1444426140955-c-1497961799067.htm?tid=5399984463544619174&ipos=1)

[Nick Lazz]

Not sure if this has been suggested already but with a table that big, it may be difficult to keep from moving on you.
I might consider a stave core type construction and laminate my own veneer maybe 3/16”.
It would save you a ton of money too. Of course you may need to purchase the vacuum pump and equip to complete the job...but at least you’d have some new tools!

[Jim Riseborough]

Not sure if this has been suggested already but with a table that big, it may be difficult to keep from moving on you.
I might consider a stave core type construction and laminate my own veneer maybe 3/16”.
It would save you a ton of money too. Of course you may need to purchase the vacuum pump and equip to complete the job...but at least you’d have some new tools!

Thanks, wood is already purchased. Its a look I am going for, and hopefully this wood is stable enough not to move all around. If it does, will go from there and work with it!

[Jim Riseborough]

Got the sled built for the boards to go thru the planer. Used shelving from Menards, 12' cut down to 10'. Thinking it would have been easier and cheaper to goto a furniture store, haha! I will add grip tape to the top to stop the wood from sliding. see how that works, hopefully get to run one Christmas day.

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[Jim Riseborough]

So question about wood to use. Should I use the wood that is flat sawn or quarter sawn, or will I be ok with the pit too? I fee it might crack more than others, but also could look cool.

1 or 2?

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[Jim Becker]

Flat sawn vs quarter sawn is a personal subjective choice. I personally love the look of QS, but tables like you are making are quite often made with flat sawn for a more rustic look. As to the pith...good idea to avoid it if you can.

[Jim Riseborough]

Flat sawn vs quarter sawn is a personal subjective choice. I personally love the look of QS, but tables like you are making are quite often made with flat sawn for a more rustic look. As to the pith...good idea to avoid it if you can.


Thanks, my thoughts too

a few updated pics. This thing is gonna be huge!

(for the life of me I cant get the pic rotated, one was rotated in my file, other wasnt, they are both now)

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[Jim Becker]

That's going to be a very nice, stout and rustic table. Nice work.

I'm actually working on a new kitchen table for our home "as we speak"...it's a project that I've had on the list for a few years, but am only now executing. My base is made from recycled barn beam components that were removed from our great room when we added our addition and the top will be some old cherry that I obtained "for a song" a number of years ago when 'Creeker Alan Turner found an estate sale that included a barn full of wood. I'm also going "rustic and stout" which I think is nice for this application.

I'm looking forward to seeing that top assembled!

[Jim Riseborough]

question on clamping, I have 4 -48" jorgesen clamps, and about 12 36" clamps. Any suggestions to using the 36" clamps? I thought about taking the ends off, and bolting two together, thus having long clamps, any reason that would not work, other than drilling into my clamps?

Anyone know of 48" clamps on sale??

Thanks

[Derek Meyer]

Home Depot has the 50" Bessey parallel clamps for $39.95. It's the cheapest I've found them.

[Jared Sankovich]

I don't like parallel clamps for table top glue ups, not enough clamping force If anything is off.

The bessey 3/4 pipe clamps are $14 from home depot, it's another $20 for a 10' stick of 3/4 pipe.

Better would be the bessey Bar clamps now that jorgensen is done.

[Jim Riseborough]

Home Depot has the 50" Bessey parallel clamps for $39.95. It's the cheapest I've found them.

Im thinking thats my best option. I might try joining a couple Jorgies together and see if that works.
They are 45$ online, maybe cheaper in store? I need to dig up a 10% off coupon!


I don't like parallel clamps for table top glue ups, not enough clamping force If anything is off.

The bessey 3/4 pipe clamps are $14 from home depot, it's another $20 for a 10' stick of 3/4 pipe.

Better would be the bessey Bar clamps now that jorgensen is done.

Im trying not to have to buy pipe clamps, not my favorite. I am trying to get everything right, dowel and glue. I was going to do 2 pieces at a time, and then join 2 and 2, finally 4 and 2. Its the last glue up I need the long ones.

What am I missing on Jorgensen, they have a website and have the clamps still? Amazon has them too.

[Jim Riseborough]

Havent sorted out the clamps yet, but I am going to start gluing up the table tonight. I am going to just do two boards at a time, then the resulting 3 boards as a single glue up.

I did have to build a work table big enough. Added this to my table saw, should suffice. Got about 80$ in it along with my time. Not bad, not my dream work bench, but nice for a outfeed table.

Dont have alot of room either for big workbench. Sorry for the picture orientation. I am figuring that out!

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Oh, and Mr Kitty likes a tray I built.
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(https://sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=400292&d=1546614057)

[Jim Riseborough]

Got the boards drilled with dowel holes and glued up first two pieces. I used my own dowels, and they were a horrible to get in the holes, I think they were so tight that they were making it hard to pull together. All the holes lined up nicely, but I measured my dowels vs my drill and they were about 2 thousands bigger. I will get some of the spiral dowels or dowels from Jessem that are serrated for a easier time.

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