The Grindstone Project

[Jim Koepke]

My current project was mentioned in the thread on the Artsy component of woodworking thread.

John K Jordan mentioned he would like to see my design. So here it is:

398300

This is my second drawing of the concept. Often my projects do not even get a full drawing. This one actually got a third drawing of the wheel details to help plan. This required a separate quick project to accomplish. In order to measure the shaft and hub a large pair of dividers was needed. It was quick work making a large pair of dividers out of some scrap wood, a flat washer, carriage bolt and a wing nut.

In the first drawing the bearings were to be mounted at the joint of the two 2X6s. The full width of the wood would have caused too much distance from the hub to the outside of the bearings for the length of the existing shaft to reach. The shaft isn't easy to change, if it can even be changed after all these years.

This is one of the bearing mounts and the one of the bearings:

398301

The wheel diameter is 20" with a width of 1-3/4". The large hole is for clearance of the hub assembly.

jtk

[Tom M King]

I've had such a grinding wheel (but I think wider, if not larger), new in the wooden crate it came in, for maybe 40 years, or close to it. Maybe this will motivate me to build something for it. I forget where I ordered it from, but had to be one of the woodworking catalogs back in the mid '70's.

[Kory Cassel]

Looking forward to seeing more. Any ideas for the treadle yet?

[Jim Koepke]

Looking forward to seeing more. Any ideas for the treadle yet?

A couple have been floating around my cranium. One feature is to be driven by either the left or right foot or both. A second thought is trying to articulate the mechanism so it can be driven from either end.

jtk

[Don McConnell]

I've had such a grinding wheel (but I think wider, if not larger), new in the wooden crate it came in, for maybe 40 years, or close to it. Maybe this will motivate me to build something for it. I forget where I ordered it from, but had to be one of the woodworking catalogs back in the mid '70's.

Hi Tom,

I don't specifically remember them offering grinding wheels of this type, but suspect you got it from Frog Tool Company, in Chicago. For example, I recall them occasionally offering unusual things such as pit saws. Hadn't thought of them for years.

Don McConnell
Eureka Springs, AR

[Tom M King]

Possible, but I don't remember buying anything from them. I've been looking for a pit saw for years, so if I had one of their catalogs, I might own a pit saw now.

[Jim Koepke]

Possible, but I don't remember buying anything from them. I've been looking for a pit saw for years, so if I had one of their catalogs, I might own a pit saw now.

Doesn't look like they have one listed now:

http://www.frogwoodtools.com/index.htm

They didn't have a way to purchase over the internet on my last attempt to purchase some riffler rasps.

jtk

[Don McConnell]

Hmmm. So it seems likely Tom's grindstone came from another source. Sorry about that.

Regarding the pit saws, my primary assumption was that they were likely NOS items which came to market due to one of the older Sheffield firms being purchased and/or liquidated. However, I had reason to be reminded that there was still a small market for pit saws in some parts of the world. In the mid-seventies, my brother visited several areas in China as part of a rural leadership development program. He told me that, in several locations where construction was underway, he saw people using pit saws as regular part of the process. So, possibly, small numbers of such saws were still being produced at that time?

Don McConnell
Eureka Springs, AR

[Tom M King]

I found some pit saws manufactured in India, a few years back. I haven't been actively looking for one. Just ready when one becomes available in my price range (cheap). I don't need one bad enough to pay much for it. I'd just like to have one. I have a tiller handle buried in one of the storage houses here somewhere.

I'll see if I can think to take some pictures of that grindstone in the next few days. I know which building it's in. It may still have the packing slip on the wooden crate.

[Tom Blank]

If i promise to work hard and keep quiet, can I have an Anchor Christmas Ale?

Tom

[Jim Koepke]

If i promise to work hard and keep quiet, can I have an Anchor Christmas Ale?

Tom

If you want to come on by there are four left. The store had to buy a whole case to fill my special order. Bryan, at the Brew & Grape, took a six pack for himself and one came home with me so there were some left in the store as of last Thursday.

Tis the season, in my younger days among a circle of friends we would end up trying all the seasonal ales this time of year. Full Sail creates a wonderful Wassail. Sierra Nevada Celebration ale is also a great joy. My malted beverage consumption has been reduced dramatically over the last decade.

jtk

[Nicholas Lawrence]

Doesn't look like they have one listed now:

http://www.frogwoodtools.com/index.htm

They didn't have a way to purchase over the internet on my last attempt to purchase some riffler rasps.

jtk

Has anybody done business with them lately? Catalog looked very interesting, then I saw the note that they are scans of something 30 years old and you have to call for updated information. Do they still have the same stock, and just the prices are different, or do you have to call to find out what stock they have?

Nick

[Jim Koepke]

Has anybody done business with them lately? Catalog looked very interesting, then I saw the note that they are scans of something 30 years old and you have to call for updated information. Do they still have the same stock, and just the prices are different, or do you have to call to find out what stock they have?

Nick

My call to them was about a year ago. At the time the prices for the tools of my interest were pretty much what they were in the catalog.

jtk

[James Waldron]

Possible, but I don't remember buying anything from them. I've been looking for a pit saw for years, so if I had one of their catalogs, I might own a pit saw now.

Like this one?

398499

http://www.frogwoodtools.com/Catalog/65.htm

Mr. Koepke misplaced his trust in the index; I browsed the on-line catalog for saws. (The catalog is not up to real modern Intertubes standards, and is a pain in the rear to use, but when you need a pit saw, ....)

And if you follow the link, you now have their catalog. Happy hunting.

[Tom M King]

Thanks for that.

[Stew Denton]

Jim and Jim,

I'm not into Neanderhood enough to want a pit saw....that would be carrying things a bit far for me. If I ever want to get a tree trunk cut up into lumber, I will have a commercial sawmill do that.....I won't be buying a pit saw! Not to say that I want to discourage another Neander from doing such if his heart is really into it.....only saying it just isn't for me.

Concerning how to drive the wheel, my grandfather had such a grindstone out in his side yard, I think perhaps from when he was farming back in the 20s or 30s.

It was driven by two up and down pedals. The set up was you sat on a seat, kind of like an old style bicycle seat only steel, and the wheel was in front of you on a metal framework that was tied to the seat and the drive petals. The petals were on something like angle iron sections that extended forward one straddling each side of the frame. The back end of the angle iron pieces were on ground level attached to the frame, and they were on pivots at that end. These pivots were pretty much directly below, and maybe slightly behind the seat. The angle irons extended forward and slightly upward, and on the front end of them were petals that your feet rested on. When one petal was up the other petal rested on the ground.

The front edge of the petals had rods attached that pivoted on the front end location of the petals (perhaps attached to the sides of the petals at the front end of each), and the rods went from the pivots on the front of the petals about straight up to the ends of the grinding wheel drive device, which was shaped like the central petal drive assembly that the petals set on on a bicycle. On a bicycle this central drive assembly devise is what the forward chain drive sprocket is attached to. The center of this assembly went through the center of the grindstone and drove it. The rods attached to the drive assembly were about straight up from front end of the petals to what would be the equivalent of where the petals set on a bicycle drive assembly, and they pivoted on this spot where the petals would be on a bicycle drive assembly.

Thus the up and down movement of your feet was converted by the drive assembly on the wheel to a circular movement to the wheel.

This center assembly on the grindstone was virtually the same shape as the center petal assembly on a bicycle. When your right foot went down on the petals on the ends of the angle irons, the equivalent part on the center assembly on the grindstone went forward then down in a circular motion. At the same time the petal under your right foot was going down, the petal under your left foot was going up. Once you got the wheel started, its momentum carried the circular movement, and each press of the petals under your feet would drive the wheel faster and faster. We small grandchildren just loved to petal the thing. The wheel was pretty good sized, my guess looking back almost 60 years or so is that it might have been 20" to 2' in diameter. It was definitely bigger than some of the smaller ones that I have seen that are maybe 12" to 15" in diameter. My guess is that it might have been 2" wide or so.

Stew

[Jim Koepke]

Mine had a stand like that:

398537

It didn't look like a candidate for rehabilitation.

jtk

[Tom M King]

Stew, We wouldn't be doing a lot of work with a pit saw. It would only be used for demonstration about how it used to be done at some of the privately owned museum houses I work on.

[Stew Denton]

Tom, sorry, I didn't mean to imply that you were going to use one a lot.

If you look to buy one at the aforementioned outfit, see if you can get a bargain price on one. They may have had 4 of the six that they have in stock on the books since 1867. (They sold the other 2 back in 1975 to a lady who was into painting saws, and wanted to paint a couple of landscape paintings of the entire Golden Gate Bridge, one from each side.)

Regards,

Stew

[Tom M King]

That's kind of what I was thinking too. I did contact them for a catalog, and a price on the pit saw, but haven't heard back yet.

[Jim Koepke]

Work has been progressing. The bearing mount joinery is finished:

398713

Next is doing the legs, then a cutout for the wheel.

jtk

[James Pallas]

I'm anxious to see how this works out for you once completed. I don't see any option for a drip can mount?
Jim

[Chuck Nickerson]

Possible, but I don't remember buying anything from them. I've been looking for a pit saw for years, so if I had one of their catalogs, I might own a pit saw now.

I bought their pit saw three years ago. Once I got pointers on sharpening it, it's been fun to use. Elevating logs is NOT the fun part.

[Tom M King]

I'll cheat, and use a frontend loader.

[Jim Koepke]

I'm anxious to see how this works out for you once completed. I don't see any option for a drip can mount?
Jim

My tendency with little details like a drip can mount is to keep them in mind but not include them in the design and do the 'engineering' as the project progresses.

Today was productive in getting the grinding wheel mounted and spinning freely:

400113

The central mortise was cut out using a large auger bit, then a forstner bit followed by chisels, a draw knife, a pad saw, spokeshaves, rasps and a saber saw.

All the bolts that do not go all the way through wood to be held by nuts have threaded inserts to anchor them.

For anyone interested in such details, the legs slope and splay is 10º.

There is some blocking to be added to the top of the legs. A treadle needs to be designed and added. My backside is telling me there needs to be an adjustable seat made. And of course there needs to be a way to drip water on the stone while it is in use.

After all that there will need to be a tool rest and a way to keep me from getting drenched when using this thing.

jtk

[steven c newman]

Maybe draw some ideas from this one...
400114
Pedal Power...

[Mike Lemon]

Have the wheel turn away from you and you don't get wet. Also, I use a long planter without drain holes under my wheel to keep the water off the floor.

[Jim Koepke]

Have the wheel turn away from you and you don't get wet. Also, I use a long planter without drain holes under my wheel to keep the water off the floor.

Thanks for the tips Mike.

jtk

[Jim Koepke]

This project has had a little progress. Mostly mulling over in my mind about how things should go without having to purchase any more material.

The treadle seems to be workable:

402196

The 5/16" rod is from a 4' piece purchased at the local ACE Hardware. They also carried an interesting thing called a Heim Joint or rod end. It may be a total bust but what the heck it looks like it belonged in this venture.

Another odd occurrence was an ebay listing for some Little Giant Dies. The starting bid was $9.99 and the shipping was reasonable. Often on some of these odd deals the minimum bid is all it takes. One of the die sets was a 5/16-18 and has been put to use on this project.

The hinge pin for the treadle is ~6" long. This size was used to save some of the rod. The holes were first drilled at 5/16" and then followed by a 3/8" spoon bit. This allows the steel rod to be set in place and then 3/8" dowels can be driven in to hold it in place.

This is a scrap of poplar dowel having its ends trimmed:

402197

Dowels are so much easier to drive home if the starting end is tapered a little.

The next step is getting the treadle stable and connected to the base.

jtk

[Jim Koepke]

With a little futzing and fiddling the treadle assembly was attached to the base, the drive rod adjusted and a bit of testing on steel was done:

402584

Next comes the water shield and tool rest.

jtk

[Jim Koepke]

Got back to this project yesterday and today. A water shield, water can support and a brush were added. The watering system is supported by two pieces rising from the wheel mount:

411330

The platform for the can was made by first using a 2-1/4" hole saw bit to drill about 1/4" into the surface. Then an old expansive bit or maybe it is a gasket cutter was used to make a well for a can:

411331

After the outside depth was reached, a small shallow gouge was used to clean out the waste between the outside and inside diameters. Once this was to my liking, the hole saw was used to cut through the piece:

411332

The end with the large knot was cut off. The other end was rounded. A notch was cut out to hold a cheap paint brush in hopes that it might keep less water from the operator:

411333

The wheel is now operational:

411334

My first test was an old plane blade with a large chip in the edge. It actually didn't take too long to work the nick out of the blade. The water flow is a bit on the fast side. That has to be adjusted somehow.

jtk

[James Pallas]

Good job Jim. It will be good to hear how you get along with it in use. I'm a bit surprised that there are not many of those heard about for woodworkers. Lots about hand crank grinders but not so much those big guys. They were an essential piece of equipment for every farm or shop until electrons came into the picture.
Jim

[Phil Mueller]

Looks great Jim. Thanks for sharing. I’m curious about the water management part. Seems a lot of water is going onto the wood and maybe even you? Do you think it will hold up over time?

[Jim Koepke]

Looks great Jim. Thanks for sharing. I’m curious about the water management part. Seems a lot of water is going onto the wood and maybe even you? Do you think it will hold up over time?

That is still being worked out. Mike Lemon mentioned using a planter under the wheel to catch some of the water. My concern now is to constrict the water flow since even with a very small drill (#55 if my memory is working) the water comes out too fast.

The small structure at the front of the wheel keeps most of the water off of me.

This design is subject to changes and maybe painting to resist water damage.

jtk

[James Pallas]

Jim you might try putting one of the old style car radiator petcock drains in the bottom of your can. That makes it adjustable.
Jim

[Jim Koepke]

Jim you might try putting one of the old style car radiator petcock drains in the bottom of your can. That makes it adjustable.
Jim

Thanks for the idea Jim. One of my thoughts was to use one of my adjustable drip irrigation emitters. It is kind of like a radiator petcock drain.

My first next attempt is to try to use a sharp awl to make a small hole that can be closed up by pushing the metal back in place, nothing too fancy or that needs to be hunted down.

jtk

[Tom Bender]

A tray underneath that has a water level above the bottom of the wheel instead of a drip can will wet the wheel and rinse it, but it must be removed or lowered when not in use. Many of these old wheels have been destroyed by being wet on one side when idle, especially in freezing weather.