Spruce

[Kyle Foster]

So just a general question here, but is working with spruce always a pain or did I just happen to get dull chisels, or maybe I just dont know what I'm doing?

[Kory Cassel]

Spruce crushes and tears more easily than most woods.

[Andrew Seemann]

If you are used to soft pine with an even grain, yes it is a pain. Even though it looks similar, it often is much less easy to work and requires everything to be sharp. The alternating hard and soft rings can be challenging. And it can be quite splintery.

[Dave Cav]

Head over to the Neander forum and all your questions will be answered. They'll even answer questions you didn't know you had. Before too long, you'll have more answers than you'll know what to do with, but you'll have $5000 in Japanese chisels and sharpening stones. (Shaptons are the way to go, BTW.)

[David Bassett]

... (Shaptons are the way to go, BTW.)

Nah! Sigma waterstones or diamond plates and Spyderco ceramic bench stones! ;)

[Andrew Seemann]

Don't Fear the Neander. There are some of us over there who are cheapskates and only have Baileys we got at flea markets and garage sales, and sharpen on inexpensive combo waterstones. Although full disclosure, I do have a set of Two Cherries and a Tormek.

That said, for spruce you want to keep as sharp as you can, use a low angle on your chisels, and preferably vintage or O1 steel. A2 isn't ideal but would probably work if you keep it sharp; it will still need a higher angle to keep the edge from chipping. Avoid planing against the grain; skewing may help. Pull the slivers you get as soon as you get them, they are almost as bad as Douglas Fir slivers. There, that was the Neanderthal in me, although similar holds true for power tools.

Give yourself 10 bonus points if you caught the BOC reference.

[Kyle Foster]

I started this thread over in the general section and I was told over here would be a better spot. So just a general question here, but is working with spruce always a pain or did I just happen to get dull chisels, or maybe I just dont know what I'm doing?

Pictures of my mortise will be loaded tonight

[William Fretwell]

Very old heart wood could be hard to work but I doubt you have that. Usually a pleasure to work. Chisels ground at 25 degrees? Yes they need to be sharp.
Spruce can be tricky as you can bruise the edges of mortices more easily so work up to the edge very carefully. It is easier to practice with mahogany!

[Kim Gibbens]

Reaper. +10 for me

[Kyle Foster]

Very old heart wood could be hard to work but I doubt you have that. Usually a pleasure to work. Chisels ground at 25 degrees? Yes they need to be sharp.
Spruce can be tricky as you can bruise the edges of mortices more easily so work up to the edge very carefully. It is easier to practice with mahogany!

I'm working with construction grade 2x4s. KD spruce so I highly doubt that it is old heartwood.

As for sharpening, I dont have a sharpening station yet so out of the box will have to do until I can get a bench built.

What seems to be happening is that the internal fibers of the 2x4 seem to be ripping apart. I cant get a nice smooth cut

[Robert Hazelwood]

Very soft woods really favor a low cutting angle. If you can sharpen at 25 or even 20 degrees you should notice a reduction in tearing compared to the more typical sharpening angle of 30-35 degrees. Rob Cosman keeps a dedicated softwood chisel sharpened at 17 degrees for this reason.

Someone mentioned that it alternating soft and hard rings. I'm not that familiar with spruce, but if that's true then it will always be a bear to work with a chisel, because the hard rings will tend to destroy a very low angle edge. I've worked with a lot of yellow pine this year and there is a huge difference in hardness between rings. I swear it is harder on my chisel edges than white oak. If you increase the angle to keep the edge intact, then the soft rings tear badly. The best compromise I found is to keep a moderate angle on the chisel and sharpen very frequently, and always take small bites. You will have to keep it extremely sharp to get clean results, much more so than with a typical hardwood.

[William Fretwell]

Out of the box sharp is not sharp! Use a kitchen counter, a tree stump, anything to sharpen those tools!

Cut the fibres don’t rip them!

[Kyle Foster]

Very soft woods really favor a low cutting angle. If you can sharpen at 25 or even 20 degrees you should notice a reduction in tearing compared to the more typical sharpening angle of 30-35 degrees. Rob Cosman keeps a dedicated softwood chisel sharpened at 17 degrees for this reason.

Someone mentioned that it alternating soft and hard rings. I'm not that familiar with spruce, but if that's true then it will always be a bear to work with a chisel, because the hard rings will tend to destroy a very low angle edge. I've worked with a lot of yellow pine this year and there is a huge difference in hardness between rings. I swear it is harder on my chisel edges than white oak. If you increase the angle to keep the edge intact, then the soft rings tear badly. The best compromise I found is to keep a moderate angle on the chisel and sharpen very frequently, and always take small bites. You will have to keep it extremely sharp to get clean results, much more so than with a typical hardwood.

I wonder if drilling it our and then paring it would be a better solution?

[Matthew Hartlin]

My local construction lumber is spruce as well, save for the 2X12s which tend to be pine. It is a pain to work. It chips, it's full of sap and it's generally a mess. I've found the difference in density between growth rings is significant. I'd recommend staying away from it if possible. I just threw together a base for a kitchen island and thought I'd get fancy and make some quick lap joints by hand, I chipped one of my chisels clearing some of the waste at one point on a tiny knot.

If you can, look in the pile of knotty 1X12 pine, generally you'll get lucky with a piece of two that is pretty darn clear. I found that to be great to work with while on a budget. But it still demands sharp tools.

[Nicholas Lawrence]

Yes, two by fours can be hard on chisels. You can have areas with surprisingly large voids between growth rings (which I think causes the ripping you are seeing) lots of sap, and knots, all of which can be very hard for a “softwood.”

Sharp chisels will help, but even with sharp tools spruce is aggravating.

[Kyle Foster]

Yes, two by fours can be hard on chisels. You can have areas with surprisingly large voids between growth rings (which I think causes the ripping you are seeing) lots of sap, and knots, all of which can be very hard for a “softwood.”

Sharp chisels will help, but even with sharp tools spruce is aggravating.

I already have the lumber so I would like to continue with it with spruce. What if I were to drill the mortise and pare the sides?

[Robert Hazelwood]

You need to get yourself set up for sharpening and give those edges some attention. You need to be at max sharpness to get clean results on this sort of wood.

Yes, drilling and paring will probably give cleaner results than chopping on this kind of wood. Trying to remove any significant amount of wood at one time will usually pull out chunks from the grain.

[Malcolm Schweizer]

The grain is stringy and therefore hard to work. I’m using it extensively in my boat build on the boat section of this forum. It’s beautiful and lightweight but especially hard to work with the grain- even with (forgive me) power tools.

398089 398090 398091

[Jim Morgan]

I wonder if drilling it our and then paring it would be a better solution?

Drilling what out? What are you trying to do? If cutting mortises - yes, drill out most of the waste & pare to your layout lines.

[Nicholas Lawrence]

I am not telling you to quit. My children eat dinner sitting on a bench I made from a spruce 2x10. Nothing wrong with it.

Sharpen your chisels. I am not a driller, but it works for some people. If you want my advice (I am not a guru) look up Paul Sellers on youtube. He has a video about chopping a mortise. He does it behind glass, so you can see what is happening inside the mortise as you chop. I learned more from watching that than I did from mangling a bunch of practice mortises.

Do your mortises the width of your chisel, the way Sellers does. You will have nice even sides. The only ugliness should be at the ends, but it should be plenty strong with good glue contact on the sides, and the ugly parts will be covered by the shoulders of the mortise so nobody will see it anyway.


I already have the lumber so I would like to continue with it with spruce. What if I were to drill the mortise and pare the sides?

[Kyle Foster]

You need to get yourself set up for sharpening and give those edges some attention. You need to be at max sharpness to get clean results on this sort of wood.

Yes, drilling and paring will probably give cleaner results than chopping on this kind of wood. Trying to remove any significant amount of wood at one time will usually pull out chunks from the grain.

What do I have to do to get set up for sharpening? I wasn't prepared to sharpen yet.

[Andrew Joiner]

Head over to the Neander forum and all your questions will be answered. They'll even answer questions you didn't know you had. Before too long, you'll have more answers than you'll know what to do with, but you'll have $5000 in Japanese chisels and sharpening stones. (Shaptons are the way to go, BTW.)
That's funny Dave. I think the neander forum could easily tease the power tool woodworkers too. I laugh when a discussion goes from " is brand x power tool good for" to "I have a garage full of Martin machines and my spouse thinks":)

[Nicholas Lawrence]

What do I have to do to get set up for sharpening? I wasn't prepared to sharpen yet.

What kind of chisels do you have? What other gear do you have that needs to be sharp? People get passionate about sharpening around here, so you will probably get lots of advice, and lots of folks get convinced their way is the best way.

If you have a flat piece of something you can use sandpaper as a quick way to get going (do a search for “scary sharp”). If you want to use high dollar chisels made out of A2 steel, or the new Lee Valley steel, you will probably want a waterstone of some sort.

I stick to 01 and old carbon steel, and have found oilstones seem to work well for me. A medium or fine India stone is cheap and will get a better edge than what you probably have “out of the box.” You will want something finer later though.

Don’t run out and spend $400 on stones. Talk to some people and think about it, and if possible get together with somebody and look at their setup before you start spending a lot of money. Listen to what works for them and why, and then compare that to your situation and what you want to do.

[Kyle Foster]

What kind of chisels do you have? What other gear do you have that needs to be sharp? People get passionate about sharpening around here, so you will probably get lots of advice, and lots of folks get convinced their way is the best way.

If you have a flat piece of something you can use sandpaper as a quick way to get going (do a search for “scary sharp”). If you want to use high dollar chisels made out of A2 steel, or the new Lee Valley steel, you will probably want a waterstone of some sort.

I stick to 01 and old carbon steel, and have found oilstones seem to work well for me. A medium or fine India stone is cheap and will get a better edge than what you probably have “out of the box.” You will want something finer later though.

Don’t run out and spend $400 on stones. Talk to some people and think about it, and if possible get together with somebody and look at their setup before you start spending a lot of money. Listen to what works for them and why, and then compare that to your situation and what you want to do.

For gear that I have that needs to be sharp, not much. A set of 4 chisels from harbor freight, a plane iron, and a couple of brace bits. I am quite literally doing a fresh start and have a box of tools. No bench yet. I am building sawhorses so that way I can be up off the ground building my bench.

[Kyle Foster]

That's funny Dave. I think the neander forum could easily tease the power tool woodworkers too. I laugh when a discussion goes from " is brand x power tool good for" to "I have a garage full of Martin machines and my spouse thinks":)

I am planning on going full neanderthal, but I felt that the question would be better answered by a broader audience. I also wanted to see if the power tool guys had the same issues that I did.

[Nicholas Lawrence]

If you look around you should be able to find a Norton medium or fine India stone for about $20. Maybe a combination stone with both grits for about that much. That will get you started, and will be a lot better than whatever edge Harbor Freight sold the chisels with.

If you plan to use a sharpening jig, you will want something like an 8 x 3 stone. if you don’t need the jig, you can get good results with smaller stones. the India stones are so cheap, you can probably get the big one if you aren’t sure what you will be doing. If you want a reasonably cheap jig, look for the “eclipse” style. You can get them new for about $10 last I looked.

If you don’t want to wait for a stone to arrive, run down to your local hardware or auto parts store. Get some 240 grit and 400 grit sandpaper. Find something flat and do the “scary sharp” method. Eventually you will get tired of buying sandpaper and want to buy stones.

People will tell you about their stones, and recommend particular brands. What they tell you about the wonderful edges they get off those stones is true (probably, some of it anyway), but you can easily spend hundreds on stones. You can do that if you want to, but you do not have to.

[David Bassett]

... As for sharpening, I dont have a sharpening station yet so out of the box will have to do until I can get a bench built. ....

This is your primary problem here.


Out of the box sharp is not sharp! Use a kitchen counter, a tree stump, anything to sharpen those tools!

Cut the fibres don’t rip them!

Yes, what he said!



For gear that I have that needs to be sharp, not much. A set of 4 chisels from harbor freight, a plane iron, and a couple of brace bits. I am quite literally doing a fresh start and have a box of tools. No bench yet. I am building sawhorses so that way I can be up off the ground building my bench.

Unfortunately, HF tools vary so much it's really hard to know what you have. (Some people have had good luck, but often the heat treat is so poor and inconsistent the cutting tools are unusable.)

If you don't get what you have to work, Chris Schwarz's gift guide at PopWood has "cheap" chisels he has found acceptable: Day 8: Buck Bros. Chisels (https://www.popularwoodworking.com/woodworking-blogs/chris-schwarz-blog-woodworking-blogs/2018-anarchists-gift-guide-day-8-buck-bros-chisels/) (Note: acceptable, not great! Read his description before deciding for yourself.)



What do I have to do to get set up for sharpening? I wasn't prepared to sharpen yet.

It's real easy to spend your money on "good stuff". (And there is a lot of good stuff to suit each of our tastes. I was semi-serious about the Sigma waterstones or diamond plates & Spyderco stones. Shaptons are good stuff too.) But, none of those suggestions leverage your local conditions to optimize your budget. At the most basic you need abrasive that will cut your steel, to abrade away the dull bits, and something flat so you have a consistent frame of reference. MDF is cheap and flat, but not water proof, and makes a very short term substrate. If you have a glass or counter top shop you can get scraps from that would be ideal. (Chris Schwarz suggests a granite floor tile, see Day 9. That'd be good too, if flat.) You can then start with sandpaper, of various grits, on your substrate with a little (slightly!) soapy water and be very successful. (Auto parts stores, that have paint, will usually have finer grades of sandpaper than your big box or local hardware stores.)

Or, this:


If you look around you should be able to find a Norton medium or fine India stone for about $20. ...

For now, get something to get going. Once you are successful with one system you can evaluate your skill, space, and budget and decide if you want to upgrade.

[Jim Koepke]

Yes, spruce can be a difficult wood to work. Sharpness in the extreme will help.

All of the above is good information.

Especially the part about taking your time before settling on a sharpening system.

For the beginning set up the scary sharp system of using abrasive sheets on a flat surface is good for the economy and the learning experience. After time it becomes a bit tedious as the costs mount from having to buy new abrasive material.

One also needs to consider if they will be able to use one single system for all their sharpening needs or will they need multiple systems.

My sharpening needs range between everything from kitchen knives to garden tools. With metals ranging from aluminum or brass to today's hardest steels.

Sharpening can make a mess. Either from a powered grinder or the slurry from waterstones. Even an oilstones can leave a bit of a mess in their use.

Having a dedicated area to contain the mess or a system to contain it at your bench is something to consider.

It is also a good idea to make sharpening easy. If it is a pain to get out the sharpening equipment one is likely to continue using a dull tool.

jtk

[Kyle Foster]

So I'm off to the store tonight to get some wet/dry paper and some glass. What do you guys think of using lexan instead of glass? I'm just afraid of knocking it over and having a mess to clean up.

[David Bassett]

... What do you guys think of using lexan instead of glass? ....

Intuitively lexan seems more flexible than glass, so easier to bow and lose "flat". But with a smooth fairly flat surface, (table, counter, or workbench,) I don't see why it wouldn't work just fine.

[Barney Markunas]

As an alternative to glass or Lexan, consider dumpster diving at your local counter top fabricator. They will be throwing away some granite scraps that should be big enough and plenty flat for your purpose. Plus the price is right so grab a few and there will be no guilt if one does get dropped.

You will discover that "sharp fixes most problems" is absolutely true for hand tool woodworking. Even if you opt to drill your mortises rather than chop them, you will want sharp chisels to pare your side walls. Good luck with your project.

[Jim Koepke]

So I'm off to the store tonight to get some wet/dry paper and some glass. What do you guys think of using lexan instead of glass? I'm just afraid of knocking it over and having a mess to clean up.

If you go through some of the big box stores you can often find pieces of floor tile that are flat enough for the purpose on discount. Most of the time they have cost me about a dollar each. Make sure they are the smooth ones and not the textured kind. You can also check them with a straight edge before putting them in your cart if they are sold individually.

jtk

[Kyle Foster]

Intuitively lexan seems more flexible than glass, so easier to bow and lose "flat". But with a smooth fairly flat surface, (table, counter, or workbench,) I don't see why it wouldn't work just fine.

So I am at the junk store looking over all the mirrors and glass that people think they can make a buck on when I remember I wife complaining to me about how the digital scale doesnt work anymore. So being the great husband I am, I went and got her a new digital scale and commandeered her old one for my sharpening station. It is nice thick glass with non slip pads on the bottom.

[Kory Cassel]

That should work, used a 3/8" thick glass top from a side table for years.:)

It's worth some effort to rig something to fix your flat surface solidly. The more stable you can make it, the easier it will be to control the whole sharpening process.

If that scale doesn't move when you give it a good hard rub on the glass, you're probably all right. If it jiggles or wobbles about, I'd do something about it because it will prove irritating to sharpen on.

[Kyle Foster]

That should work, used a 3/8" thick glass top from a side table for years.:)

It's worth some effort to rig something to fix your flat surface solidly. The more stable you can make it, the easier it will be to control the whole sharpening process.

If that scale doesn't move when you give it a good hard rub on the glass, you're probably all right. If it jiggles or wobbles about, I'd do something about it because it will prove irritating to sharpen on.

Spent about an hour on that with sandpaper flattening the backs of 4 chisels from harbor freight. The 1 inch one was the worst. In the top corner was a spot that was ground quite a bit lower than the rest.

Lesson i learned: harbor freight chisels suck. Buy them if you want to learn how to flatten the back of a chisel.

[Kory Cassel]

Flattening better quality chisel backs will be less hassle. I have some Ashley Isles Mk II chisels and they come ever so slightly hollow on the backs. Very easy to flatten chisels, started with a 4000 grit water stone and it took about 3 min per chisel. I recommend them only for fine work however. Paul Sellers said in his blog that he snapped one chopping mortises with it.

[Kyle Foster]

Flattening better quality chisel backs will be less hassle. I have some Ashley Isles Mk II chisels and they come ever so slightly hollow on the backs. Very easy to flatten chisels, started with a 4000 grit water stone and it took about 3 min per chisel. I recommend them only for fine work however. Paul Sellers said in his blog that he snapped one chopping mortises with it.

A 4000 grit stone? That is crazy. I was using 120 grit sandpaper to flatten these backs and it was taking forever!

[Kory Cassel]

A 4000 grit stone? That is crazy. I was using 120 grit sandpaper to flatten these backs and it was taking forever!
At least you know the steel they're made from is tough! LOL.

[Kyle Foster]

After last night, I have a weird feeling that I will be moving onto a different method of sharpening. The scary sharp method is great until you realize how much sand paper you go through. I went through 3 sheets last night in an hour and that was on 4 chisels. I probably could have sped up the amount of time I was sharpening if I were to have used a 4th or even a 5th sheet but I like to get my money out of what I buy so I used it until it was totally dead. Today I am going to try my hand at polishing the backs of the chisels and maybe give the bevel a go.

[David Bassett]

After last night, I have a weird feeling that I will be moving onto a different method of sharpening. The scary sharp method is great until you realize how much sand paper you go through. I went through 3 sheets last night in an hour and that was on 4 chisels. I probably could have sped up the amount of time I was sharpening if I were to have used a 4th or even a 5th sheet but I like to get my money out of what I buy so I used it until it was totally dead. Today I am going to try my hand at polishing the backs of the chisels and maybe give the bevel a go.

Patience Grasshopper... (Sorry, you're probably too young.)

Setup is the most media intensive and, hopefully, only needed once per tool. Also the coarse grits, used more for setup & repair than sharpening, are where sandpaper is most competitive over time. (That's because coarse stones tend to wear faster, dish more, and in general last for less time than the medium & fine stones used for sharpening edges. Hence the endless quest for the perfect grinder, diamond stone, ... whatever. Crystolon synthetic oil stones might be the biggest, only?, exception to the dishing problem in coarse stones.)

Hang in there for a bit.

ETA: if/when you do decide to move on, there is an endless supply of info on this forum. Searching specific topics is easy by adding "site:sawmillcreek.org" (no quotes) to a Google, and I assume all other, search lines. Which stone(s) / media will suit you depends on the steel used in your tools and your personal space & preferences. E.g. perma-soaked waterstones can be ideal for someone with a dedicated climate controlled sharpening area with running water, but not so much for most of us. "Splash & Go" waterstones are one alternative that still uses water, but much less, and allows the stones to dry between uses.

[Dave Cav]

Scary sharp/sandpaper is probably the quickest and as far as initial cost is concerned, cheapest, but in the long run it can get expensive. Personally, with the HF chisels I wouldn't worry about going any higher than 880 (and maybe 440) on the bevels.

I do like Shapton stones, but two Spyderco stones will work pretty well, too (fine and coarse) and will last the rest of your life. I have one I keep in the kitchen for kitchen knives.

If you're just starting out sharpening, you really need some kind of guide until you get a feel for the bevels. One of these will work fine and make your sharpening much more consistent:

https://www.amazon.com/ATLIN-Honing-Guide-Chisels-Planer/dp/B07C9X3F98/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1544122403&sr=8-3&keywords=chisel+sharpening+jig

You can find them anywhere from about $10 to $20 on line and in your local hardware store. Use a protractor and a piece of cardboard or hardboard and make an angle gauge so you can consistently set the chisels for a 30* bevel. I wouldn't go any lower with the HF chisels.

I had a set of the Harbor Freight wood handle chisels. They will improve your sharpening skills, I'll tell you that. I gave them away several years ago and mostly use vintage Stanley 720s for paring and light work and a set of Narex bench chisels for heavy work.

[Mike Baker 2]

I use 2x4 and yellow pine a lot.You really need sharp tools.
IMHO, I would buy this https://www.chefknivestogo.com/ckcodipl40.html
and this https://www.amazon.com/d/Sharpening-Stones/KING-KW65-Combination-Whetstone-Plastic/B001DT1X9O/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&qid=1544327875&sr=8-6&keywords=king+6000+stone

as soon as I could. Then make a leather strop. You can find instruction for that on Youtube. Paste the strop with green Chromium Oxide paste from Harbor freight.

This is what I use. It will get your chisels and plane blades crazy sharp, and make it easy to keep them that way.
The diamond plate does double duty as the beginning of your honing routine, and as a way to lap the waterstone to keep it flat.
There's a ton more gear you could buy, but that is a basic setup that will work, and I can personally vouche that it works well for the wood you are working.
Buy them one at a time if you have to. But the diamond plate first if you do.
If you've never used water stones, use light pressure on the waterstones. They cut quickly, so you don't need to bear down. If you do you will gouge them.
You can buy the 6k stone by itself in a larger, thicker version for more money. I recommend it if you have the cash, or even the King 8k instead. You will still probably spend under $100 for the entire set up.

[Kyle Foster]

I use 2x4 and yellow pine a lot.You really need sharp tools.
IMHO, I would buy this https://www.chefknivestogo.com/ckcodipl40.html
and this https://www.amazon.com/d/Sharpening-Stones/KING-KW65-Combination-Whetstone-Plastic/B001DT1X9O/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&qid=1544327875&sr=8-6&keywords=king+6000+stone

as soon as I could. Then make a leather strop. You can find instruction for that on Youtube. Paste the strop with green Chromium Oxide paste from Harbor freight.

This is what I use. It will get your chisels and plane blades crazy sharp, and make it easy to keep them that way.
The diamond plate does double duty as the beginning of your honing routine, and as a way to lap the waterstone to keep it flat.
There's a ton more gear you could buy, but that is a basic setup that will work, and I can personally vouche that it works well for the wood you are working.
Buy them one at a time if you have to. But the diamond plate first if you do.
If you've never used water stones, use light pressure on the waterstones. They cut quickly, so you don't need to bear down. If you do you will gouge them.
You can buy the 6k stone by itself in a larger, thicker version for more money. I recommend it if you have the cash, or even the King 8k instead. You will still probably spend under $100 for the entire set up.

What about the sharpening guide? Do you happen to use one of those? I dont want to ruin my stones or my blades by doing it wrong.

[Mark Maleski]

What do I have to do to get set up for sharpening? I wasn't prepared to sharpen yet.

You're getting plenty of good advice from this thread already, nothing I have to say runs counter. But to me, the most important element to learning to sharpen is hands-on guidance. Learning to sharpen comes with plenty of pitfalls (e.g., inadvertently rocking the chisel when flattening the back) and it's best to have someone checking your progress and helping you recognize when you're experiencing one of those pitfalls. So my advice is to look for a local guild, or woodworking store, or just another Creeker who can help you move more quickly up that learning curve. Also you'll get to use someone else's sharp chisel so you can know what you're aiming for.

Also, get a jeweler's loupe. You won't need it eventually, but at the beginning it's really helpful to be able to see the bezel up close...you'll see flat spots you can't see with the naked eye. Eventually you'll learn how to feel for these with your fingers, but that'd be hard to learn without understanding what you're feeling for.

[Mike Baker 2]

I have a guide, but graduated from that to free hand sharpening. But I do recommend one if you are new to sharpening tools. You can go cheap or expensive. Up to you.
The suggestion of a loupe is a good one as well, and you can get a good lighted one that will work well for around $8-$10, probably less.

[Kyle Foster]

I have a guide, but graduated from that to free hand sharpening. But I do recommend one if you are new to sharpening tools. You can go cheap or expensive. Up to you.
The suggestion of a loupe is a good one as well, and you can get a good lighted one that will work well for around $8-$10, probably less.

Just bought a honing guide off amazon so hopefully with that and the "scary sharp" method of sharpening I should be making real shavings in a week. As for the loupe, I have no idea what one of those is or what they do so I dont feel comfortable going out and buying one.

[Kory Cassel]

Just bought a honing guide off amazon so hopefully with that and the "scary sharp" method of sharpening I should be making real shavings in a week. As for the loupe, I have no idea what one of those is or what they do so I dont feel comfortable going out and buying one.
He's talking about magnification. A loupe is like a magnifying glass that you hold close to your eye. You'll be looking for some things that are hard to see like facets in your edge and monitoring the 'feather' as you sharpen. When you get that guide, I'm sure folks will be able to talk you through it eventually but it took me a long time to get super sharp edges so don't expect perfection right away.

[Kyle Foster]

He's talking about magnification. A loupe is like a magnifying glass that you hold close to your eye. You'll be looking for some things that are hard to see like facets in your edge and monitoring the 'feather' as you sharpen. When you get that guide, I'm sure folks will be able to talk you through it eventually but it took me a long time to get super sharp edges so don't expect perfection right away.

Why is it called a loupe? It is a magnifying glass. I have one of them hanging around somewhere. I guess I'll dig around tonight to find that.

[Nicholas Lawrence]

Why is it called a loupe? It is a magnifying glass. I have one of them hanging around somewhere. I guess I'll dig around tonight to find that.

A loupe is a lot more powerful. It is often called a jeweler’s loupe, because jewelers use them to look for defects in gemstones, etc. I think typical magnifying glasses are 2x or 4x power. A loupe is usually 10x or thereabouts.

You do not really need one, but some folks use them to better see what is going on with the edge as they sharpen it.

[Kyle Foster]

A loupe is a lot more powerful. It is often called a jeweler’s loupe, because jewelers use them to look for defects in gemstones, etc. I think typical magnifying glasses are 2x or 4x power. A loupe is usually 10x or thereabouts.

You do not really need one, but some folks use them to better see what is going on with the edge as they sharpen it.

I dont remember the magnification power it had, but it was used for wood identification. Ie looking for how much tyloses and viewing the ray flecks in hardwoods.

[sean contenti]

On the topic of magnification, another option to look at for shop use would be a geologist's hand lense. Small form factor like a jewellers loupe, similar magnification, but in my experience more robustly built and cheaper. Made to dangle from a lanyard while I'm clambering over an outcrop vs. sitting on a jewellers bench.

[Kyle Foster]

On the topic of magnification, another option to look at for shop use would be a geologist's hand lense. Small form factor like a jewellers loupe, similar magnification, but in my experience more robustly built and cheaper. Made to dangle from a lanyard while I'm clambering over an outcrop vs. sitting on a jewellers bench.

That is exactly the style that I have. The one that hangs on a lanyard that is. So when I sharpen my blades, I should periodically check the bevel to see how it is doing? Kory Cassel mentioned monitoring the "feather" as I sharpen. If I use a jig to sharpen, then how is there a feather in there? Wouldn't it just be a flat grind?

[Nicholas Lawrence]

That is exactly the style that I have. The one that hangs on a lanyard that is. So when I sharpen my blades, I should periodically check the bevel to see how it is doing? Kory Cassel mentioned monitoring the "feather" as I sharpen. If I use a jig to sharpen, then how is there a feather in there? Wouldn't it just be a flat grind?

As you hone the bevel a “wire edge” forms on the back side. I think that is what the reference to a “feather” is talking about.

[Kory Cassel]

That is exactly the style that I have. The one that hangs on a lanyard that is. So when I sharpen my blades, I should periodically check the bevel to see how it is doing? Kory Cassel mentioned monitoring the "feather" as I sharpen. If I use a jig to sharpen, then how is there a feather in there? Wouldn't it just be a flat grind?
Yeah Kyle,

Feather, wire edge, burr. It's the part right at the tip of a blade that gets pushed away from the stone instead of abrading away. On the coarser grits, the wire edge can be quite large and clearly visible to the naked eye. When you get to the finer grits, it's very small.

Some free-hand sharpening methods teach establishing and then removing the wire edge every time you progress through the grits. Getting that wire edge is a sign that you have sharpened all the way to the tip of the blade with each grit level.

If you're using a honing guide, you don't actually need to do that because the blade will continue to tip forward slightly as you go so you don't have to establish a new wire edge each time to know that you have in fact gotten all the way to the tip.

IMO the magnification would be more helpful to you if you were intent on learning to sharpen free-hand. You will probably want to develop that skill at some point, but it takes a whole bunch of practice to get really consistent results.

[Edwin Santos]

Kyle,
A loupe is nothing like a magnifying glass. This is what a loupe is:

398509

Yes, jewelers use then but so do photographers. I would suggest an 8x for you but a 10x would do very well also. You don't need a super expensive high grade one. We're talking about an item that will be $5-$10 on Amazon.
I think it is very useful, maybe indispensable when sharpening to see the edge magnified to really know what's going on. It's a whole different world under magnification.

If you're feeling posh, Peak is a very good brand.

Good luck,
Edwin

[sean contenti]

That is exactly the style that I have. The one that hangs on a lanyard that is. So when I sharpen my blades, I should periodically check the bevel to see how it is doing? Kory Cassel mentioned monitoring the "feather" as I sharpen. If I use a jig to sharpen, then how is there a feather in there? Wouldn't it just be a flat grind?

I don't know. :D I'm the wrong guy to tell you how to use it for sharpening - I've never actually used mine for that. I mentioned it only after reading the discussion about loupes. Mine lives with my field gear and I really only use it to look at rocks. Unfortunately, it'll be pretty dusty now, haven't been on an outcrop on company time in a few years... Budget cuts...

Might have to pull it out and take a look at a chisel here... It hadn't occurred to me to check edges like that.

[Nicholas Lawrence]

I don’t use mine to sharpen either. So if it sounds like a dumb idea to you, just don’t do it.

Mine mostly gets used to look at the kids fingers, toes, etc., to see if I got the splinter out.

[Kory Cassel]

Kyle, I also have never used any kind of magnification, but I can definitely see some benefits. Mostly as I said when learning free-hand. It's kind of hit or miss at the start like you screw up the edge somehow 1/2 the time and don't know why it ends up dull as a butter knife. The magnification could be a good teaching aide, but as others have pointed out uncounted woodworkers over who knows how many years have gotten sharp woodworking edges without any such thing as a loupe.

Lots of different approaches will work, you just have to get comfortable with something that produces a consistently sharp edge to start with.:)

I'll be looking for some kind of magnification for saw sharpening soon. Probably an Optivisor. My eyes aren't what they used to be and some of the teeth on my backsaws are rather small. That's another sort of free-hand type thing that I want to be able to monitor as opposed to letting a guide get me to where I need to be.

[Edwin Santos]

I think there might be some misconceptions here. A magnifying loupe is absolutely not essential for sharpening. However it's not a dumb idea either.

When I learned sharpening, the guy who taught me basically summarized sharpening as the creation of a true edge at a given angle, and then the process of making that edge progressively keener by utilizing progressively finer abrasives.
Each abrasive is removing a scratch pattern left by the prior abrasive, but leaving its own in the process. To demonstrate this he pulled out a loupe and used it to show me in detail what these progressive scratch patterns look like magnified. It was quite revealing.
His instruction was for us to pay attention to when the scratch pattern is an even pattern of the same type (coarseness) of scratches, not a mix. If you have a mix, keep working and only when it's even should you move on to the next stone.

So especially for someone who is learning, the loupe will allow you familiarization with this progression of scratch patterns in a way that is simply impossible with the human eye alone, even if you were a marksman sharpshooter with 20/20 vision.

If I am sharpening in mid project, in a hurry to get back to work, no, I will not touch the loupe.
But if I am sharpening at the end of the day and treating it like therapy, chasing excellence, then yes, I will use a loupe and look at what's going on in my pursuit of the ultimate edge.
Like others said, you should use what's comfortable for you, but I thought it might be useful to explain that there is in fact some method to this particular madness.
Edwin

[Kyle Foster]

I think there might be some misconceptions here. A magnifying loupe is absolutely not essential for sharpening. However it's not a dumb idea either.

When I learned sharpening, the guy who taught me basically summarized sharpening as the creation of a true edge at a given angle, and then the process of making that edge progressively keener by utilizing progressively finer abrasives.
Each abrasive is removing a scratch pattern left by the prior abrasive, but leaving its own in the process. To demonstrate this he pulled out a loupe and used it to show me in detail what these progressive scratch patterns look like magnified. It was quite revealing.
His instruction was for us to pay attention to when the scratch pattern is an even pattern of the same type (coarseness) of scratches, not a mix. If you have a mix, keep working and only when it's even should you move on to the next stone.

So especially for someone who is learning, the loupe will allow you familiarization with this progression of scratch patterns in a way that is simply impossible with the human eye alone, even if you were a marksman sharpshooter with 20/20 vision.

If I am sharpening in mid project, in a hurry to get back to work, no, I will not touch the loupe.
But if I am sharpening at the end of the day and treating it like therapy, chasing excellence, then yes, I will use a loupe and look at what's going on in my pursuit of the ultimate edge.
Like others said, you should use what's comfortable for you, but I thought it might be useful to explain that there is in fact some method to this particular madness.
Edwin

Edwin,

Your explanation clarifies quite a bit for me. Almost as much as looking at the edge of a blade through a loupe does. I am still I'm the process of learning and figuring out what is best for me which is the tough part.

[Kyle Foster]

So the sharpening jig came yesterday. I spent about and hour and a half messing with it and trying to sharpen my 4 chisels. It did not work on the 1/4 inch. It just wouldn't grab it properly. From half inch up, it grabbed them, but no writing anywhere to tell me what protrusion for what angle. So I set it to the angle that came on the chisels. I pulled out my fresh package of wet/dry sand paper and went to town on them starting from 220 grit to 400 to 600 grit. Now I can see very small scratches in the face and on the back of the chisels. I try to shave with it and nothing. I try to cut a piece of paper and the paper folds and rips but doesnt get sliced. Do I need to go to a finer grit of paper or do I need to adjust my angle or am I just screwing up somehow?

[Kory Cassel]

Ok, my basic breakdown method no 1:

The chisel might have come with a large 25 deg bevel. That's a 'primary' bevel. I maintain a flat primary bevel with a coarse grit.

I use a micro-bevel added to this. The secondary bevel I use is 30 deg that's a little steeper. If you have nothing to set the guide with, just eyeball 5 deg. 29 deg or 31 deg will work quite well.

When you get your back polished and your primary bevel ground all the way to the tip, set the chisel in the guide at 30 deg to form the micro-bevel. It should take very few strokes (maybe two) on 220 grit to form a small 1/32" band across the edge. You want a super small secondary bevel using this method.

Leave the chisel locked in the guide and move on through the grits. Start each new grit level by pulling the edge back a time or two so you don't run over the wire edge and fold it under the chisel.

After you finish your finest grit on the bevel side, take the chisel out of the guide and once again pull back on the finest grit, this time on the back of the chisel being very careful to keep the chisel flat on the stone. I overhang the edge and pull back onto the abrasive when I do this. Any remaining wire edge left should peel away with a stroke or two. Test by running your thumbnail along the edge. If it catches anywhere, there is still some wire edge left that you can chase off pulling back on the back side of the chisel.

Maintaining the primary bevel with the guide is wasteful to the life of your chisel, so keeping the micro-bevel real small is the key to this type of sharpening. A good grinder set-up and hollow ground edges will be the way to go for longevity of your tools (you have to remove less steel as you maintain your edges), but the flat ground double bevel is doable by hand with just a honing guide.

There are ton's of ways to go about this. If this doesn't work for you, others here can suggest something different.

[Nicholas Lawrence]

Make a stop block. With a guide, it is very important to get the angle set consistently, less so that the angle be precisely 30 degrees or whatever.

Are you getting a wire edge? As the chisel is drawn back across the abrasive, the material right at the tip deforms and sort of bends back towards the back side of the chisel. At coarser grits you can feel it easily with your finger. If you are not getting a wire edge, you are likely not abrading all the way to the edge.

https://www.finewoodworking.com/2012/03/08/how-to-use-a-honing-guide

[David Bassett]

You are probably not getting all the way to the edge.

Generally feeling for a burr is the way to confirm this, but when first starting it can be difficult to be confident it your technique. This is where the "Sharpie Trick" (and that loupe you poo-pooed :) ) can help. To get better understanding of what's happening at the edge, getting a better look is important (since most of us learn visually.) Coloring the entire bevel area plus a little and the same distance on the back with a Sharpie (or equivalent), letting it dry, and then taking a couple sharpening strokes will remove the ink and highlight where you are contacting the stone. (A bright light & magnification help too!)

You might see a band at the top of the bevel, your angle is slightly too shallow. In this case, you'll probably see a dark band right at the cutting edge. Either your angle is off a little, you didn't grind deep enough, or there is a micro-bevel and you are grinding the face above it. (See Kory's message.)

[Jim Koepke]

I pulled out my fresh package of wet/dry sand paper and went to town on them starting from 220 grit to 400 to 600 grit. Now I can see very small scratches in the face and on the back of the chisels. I try to shave with it and nothing. I try to cut a piece of paper and the paper folds and rips but doesnt get sliced. Do I need to go to a finer grit of paper or do I need to adjust my angle or am I just screwing up somehow?

As to whether or not errors are being made, without seeing what you are doing and achieving it is impossible to tell.

As others mentioned, one sign that you are on the right track is getting the burr on the back of the item you are sharpening. It should be across the full width. As said before, it will be less noticeable with the finer grits. It should be detectible with a finger nail.

My advice is to not try to create a secondary bevel or other "edge tricks" until you are able to consistently produce an acceptable edge with a single bevel.

In another discussion of sharpening someone claimed they could create a mirror edge with which they could shave using 80 grit abrasive sheets. There was never any evidence to support the veracity of his statement.

In my opinion, 600 grit may produce an edge that is capable of doing some work, but it isn't going to be a razor sharp edge many woodworkers prefer on their hand tools.

This chart will give some idea of the grit size of different media used in the quest for a sharper blade:

398826

Abrasive sheets in the 1000 & 2000 grit range are often available at some auto supply stores or auto paint suppliers.

Lee Valley carries micron sheets:

http://www.leevalley.com/us/wood/page.aspx?p=33004&cat=1,43072

Using abrasive sheets is a quick and cheap way to get started sharpening. Over time it can get to be more expensive and more of a hassle than having an investment in stones.

jtk

[Kory Cassel]

In my opinion, 600 grit may produce an edge that is capable of doing some work, but it isn't going to be a razor sharp edge many woodworkers prefer on their hand tools.
jtk
Kyle,
I agree with Jim that 600 grit is fairly coarse. It will be fine for chopping mortises in your first pair of sawhorses, but I sharpen all my edges regardless of their intended use to 8000 grit on a norton water stone. This leaves a bright and clear mirror polish. Some will go higher but I haven't felt the need.

Different strokes for different folks on the micro bevel idea. For me, a good polish on the large surface of a single bevel is a much tougher proposition than honing a small secondary bevel. David Charlesworth I believe teaches a triple bevel on chisels. And then there's Paul Sellers teaching the rolled appleseed edge. Many different ways to get you to a good sharp edge.:D

[Kyle Foster]

Kyle,
I agree with Jim that 600 grit is fairly coarse. It will be fine for chopping mortises in your first pair of sawhorses, but I sharpen all my edges regardless of their intended use to 8000 grit on a norton water stone. This leaves a bright and clear mirror polish. Some will go higher but I haven't felt the need.

Different strokes for different folks on the micro bevel idea. For me, a good polish on the large surface of a single bevel is a much tougher proposition than honing a small secondary bevel. David Charlesworth I believe teaches a triple bevel on chisels. And then there's Paul Sellers teaching the rolled appleseed edge. Many different ways to get you to a good sharp edge.:D

So after trying again tonight, I got the same results and ruined my sandpaper. Granted I did try again before I logged on tonight. So steps for tomorrow after work is go get paper going up to at least 2k grit. Finish Christmas shopping. Sharpen only on the pull stroke.

Any tips on how to keep even pressure on the chisel with one hand?

[Kory Cassel]

So after trying again tonight, I got the same results and ruined my sandpaper. Granted I did try again before I logged on tonight. So steps for tomorrow after work is go get paper going up to at least 2k grit. Finish Christmas shopping. Sharpen only on the pull stroke.

Any tips on how to keep even pressure on the chisel with one hand?
Hey Kyle,
It's a little harder than the youtube demonstrations make it look but you'll get there. You don't need to sharpen only with the pull stroke the whole time, just for the first one or two strokes to make sure you don't roll over the wire edge. A problem you may be having is what's called 'dubbing'. It's common when using sandpaper that it can curl or bubble up a bit in front of your edge when flattening the back and cause a tiny rounding of the tip. It doesn't take much of this to make your chisel butter knife dull until you grind past it on the primary bevel. It's not worth trying to re-flatten the back as you would have to remove a lot of material or change the geometry of your flat back to remove it on that side. Just work your primary bevel until you get a good wire edge going. It's very important to start off that way, flat back all the way to the tip and primary bevel ground out all the way until you have a wire edge. After the chisel is 'initialized' like that, honing a secondary bevel takes no time at all. I use both hands on a honing guide, thumbs in back and fingers wrapped around and putting light pressure near the tip of the blade. If you can glue or tape your sandpaper down, that might help some. In the future I would recommend PSA rolls for the coarse work such as Porter Cable Stikit or similar. It's expensive but the glued down paper won't dub your edge like loose sandpaper sheets will. You can get good results from loose sheets but be extra vigilant about it curling or bubbling up when working on your chisel backs. Protect the tip of that flat back like Fort Knox. Once initialized only ever touch the back with your finest grit. Whether you choose to grind out the primary bevel each time or just maintain it to keep the secondary bevel small is a matter of choice. It is however very difficult to get a consistent result on the bevel side if you start letting the secondary bevel get large (the angles get weird and hard to replicate with the honing guide). Wow, sorry that was so long winded!:) Good luck.

[Jim Koepke]

Different strokes for different folks on the micro bevel idea.

My suggestion is for a person to learn how to get to sharp first. Once that is down, then try all the tricks knowing what result one is trying to achieve.

If the edge is getting dubbed as mentioned by Kory, attempting a micro bevel is not necessarily going to be a cure.

My approach has been learn to get an edge sharp, then learn another way to get an edge sharp, then another and so on.

jtk

[Kyle Foster]

I gave up on scary sharp after putting in hours and still not being able to cut a piece of paper. I went and got an oilstone sold by Stanley. It is a medium/ fine stone with aluminum oxide grit. Tonight was the first time I used it and within 10 minutes I had a wire edge started. That did it for me, I am abandoning scary sharp for good and sticking with stones. My one question with this is: how much oil will this stone take before it is "seasoned"? Is there any special steps to do with this being a brand new stone?

[steven c newman]

What I have been using....for years...
399198
My oil stone grits stop at 600-1000 grit. No, I do NOT spend "hours" sharpening ONE item....more like...10 minutes. per chisel, or plane iron.
399199
This one was done up to 2000 grit...then stropped...white "board" is a 12 x 12 floor tile, selected because it was smooth and flat. That chisel will shave a beard....or, pare Ash...

BTW: You can buy up to 3,000 grit....I usually buy the assortment pack....goes up to 2,500 grit.

[Kyle Foster]

What I am saying is that after hours of sharpening 1 chisel and trying about a dozen different ways of doing it, not a single method got it close to being able to cut paper. I got frustrated and bought an oil stone to try a different method. It works for me. I was looking for what you need to do to a brand new stone if anything. Stanley is a bit lacking in the info department on this guy.

[Nicholas Lawrence]

Kyle, to my knowledge you do not need to soak or season an oil stone. Just use it. When mine get cruddy, I rinse them with hot water and scrub with a stiff brush. Others might have more insight.

[Robert Hazelwood]

Seems like the stanley oil stone is similar to a Norton India stone. If so that's a pretty nice stone, and you don't need to do anything to it before use. Just make sure you use honing oil, enough to keep the metal swarf suspended and out of the pores of the stones. And wipe the oil off after you're done. These kinds of stones can clog and become slow cutting if you don't use enough oil or don't clean them.

The stone will be fairly coarse- very good for establishing your edge geometry. But for woodworking you want a little more polish- one thing you can do is take a piece of mdf (really it could be any kind of wood or particle board, but mdf is perfect) and apply some polishing compound like Autosol, or stropping compound if you have it. Then just use pull strokes and polish up the back and bevel with that. It won't be the best edge ever but it will do just fine for 90% of woodworking tasks, and you can get fancier later.

[Kyle Foster]

Seems like the stanley oil stone is similar to a Norton India stone. If so that's a pretty nice stone, and you don't need to do anything to it before use. Just make sure you use honing oil, enough to keep the metal swarf suspended and out of the pores of the stones. And wipe the oil off after you're done. These kinds of stones can clog and become slow cutting if you don't use enough oil or don't clean them.

The stone will be fairly coarse- very good for establishing your edge geometry. But for woodworking you want a little more polish- one thing you can do is take a piece of mdf (really it could be any kind of wood or particle board, but mdf is perfect) and apply some polishing compound like Autosol, or stropping compound if you have it. Then just use pull strokes and polish up the back and bevel with that. It won't be the best edge ever but it will do just fine for 90% of woodworking tasks, and you can get fancier later.

Awesome. Thank you for the information. I tried doing a quick Google for that info and found very little info on it. Maybe I had the wrong search terms.