Who still uses NiCad and/or NiMH? Any plans to switch to LiIon? [Archive]

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Rich Engelhardt

12-04-2018, 6:23 AM

I gave my grandson my old DeWalt 18V NiCad drill/driver a year ago & picked up an 18V LiIon DeWalt.
The old NiCad served me well, but, that ship sailed years ago. LiIon has it beat seven way to Sunday in weight (lower), life & faster recharge.

I'm curious - who's still using NiCad - or NiMH?

If so, is a switch to LiIon on the horizon?

Jim Andrew

12-04-2018, 7:19 AM

Still have a few old nicad Dewalt batteries. My son gave me some changeover batteries last Christmas, so don't have to give up the tools.

Derek Cohen

12-04-2018, 7:22 AM

I still use a 20+ year-old Panasonic drill driver.

https://panasonic.encompass.com/imageDisplay?id=EY6100&mfgCode=MSC&type=m&size=s (https://panasonic.encompass.com/model/MSCEY6100)

The battery has been replaced several times, but I love this drill. Lots of power. Still feels very balanced. Charges in 15 min and holds a charge for a week or more (I am in the shop 3 days a week).

Regards from Perth

Derek

Carl Beckett

12-04-2018, 7:42 AM

I have a Dewalt 14.4v circ saw and drill combo I still use. In fact, used it just this Sunday with a diamond wheel to cut slate tiles. Have had it since '96 and it still works (replaced battery set one time). Pretty remarkable.

I do like the ergonomics of the newer Li tools I also own (misc Makita LXT tools). The batteries on these have not been kind to me and I have replaced several.

Simon MacGowen

12-04-2018, 9:40 AM

I have a few old drills that lose their charge or go weak in a few weeks. I am replacing them not in one go but when great deals are in sight. Aside from the cost of replacing the old batteries, the new drills are lighter. But you still need one or two corded drills around for the heavy drilling tasks, or when the batteries need to be charged in the middle of a job.

Simon

Martin Wasner

12-04-2018, 9:56 AM

Mike Kees

12-04-2018, 10:04 AM

As a carpenter I switched to Milwaukee m18 in 2012. I am still using two of the original batteries from my first purchase. The third battery died this fall. this is by far the best life I have seen from any battery. Used full time +35 to -20 C. I now have 9 batteries and multiple tools. Before Milwaukee I used DeWalt,Bosch,Craftsman, and Ridgid . I would not even consider a cordless platform with anything other than lithium ion batteries. Mike.

John K Jordan

12-04-2018, 10:06 AM

Rich, I'll use the NiCads until they all eventually die. I still have a bunch (all the same for interchangeability) and have been pretty successful so far at keeping them alive and reviving some that died. I do like my LiIon tools, though.

I recently bought a Dewalt kit that adapts a lithium battery to work with the 18v Dewalt tools. After using it for 1/2 a year I plan on buying more. (I have Dewalt cordless drills, impact drivers, circular saw, reciprocal saws, and a few others that all use the same battery) The battery is smaller and lighter than the NiCads so it doesn't significantly change the tool height or balance.

398031 398032

JKJ

I gave my grandson my old DeWalt 18V NiCad drill/driver a year ago & picked up an 18V LiIon DeWalt.
The old NiCad served me well, but, that ship sailed years ago. LiIon has it beat seven way to Sunday in weight (lower), life & faster recharge.

I'm curious - who's still using NiCad - or NiMH?

If so, is a switch to LiIon on the horizon?

Rich Engelhardt

12-04-2018, 10:46 AM

John,
My original intention was to use the DeWalt until it's NiCads gave out, then get the adapter & charger. In the meantime, I had a Black and Decker 18 V set - sander, drill, reciprocating saw and circular saw - that I used to destruction. By the time the B&D was destroyed, a great deal on the 12 V Milwaukee came along (it uses LiIon) that I just couldn't pass up. I looked at the prices of the adapter & charger and decided to just get a new drill for $99 that came with 2 batteries and a charger.

They a couple years later, there was a fabulous sale on a cordless Makita track saw - so - I picked that up. One hing led to another & I found myself wanting a Makita cordless router and a Makita cordless multifunction tool. On Black Friday. HD had a 3 piece Makita set (drill, impact driver and circular saw - plus two free tools - the router and MF tool) for $399 - plus another charger and two more 4 amp batteries.

So bottom line. I've more or less changed over to all Makita cordless for the 18 V stuff.

Van Huskey

12-04-2018, 11:48 AM

I don't understand why Panasonic isn't more popular. Bang for the buck they're hard to beat.

They got more popular a few years back when they did well in lots of head to head comparisons. Then they seemed to give up trying to compete and fell off the map, today they are hard to find (relative to the other usual suspects) and tend to be priced quite high.

To the OP: I still have a full set of Dewalt 18v tools. The batteries (I think I have 7) and the tools are still strong so I just don't replace them. In the shop, I mainly use Bosch 12v and Festool 10.8v (I know they are technically the same) drills and drivers. I just don't much heavy work and the old Dewalts run fine. Honestly, unless I embark on another serious construction build, ie a ground-up shop, I may just replace the batteries when they die.

Martin Wasner

12-04-2018, 12:02 PM

They got more popular a few years back when they did well in lots of head to head comparisons. Then they seemed to give up trying to compete and fell off the map, today they are hard to find (relative to the other usual suspects) and tend to be priced quite high.

I switched to Panasonic in 02' maybe. I think I'm on my eighth set. The last time I bought anything was in 2012 and I bought three sets. The batteries are giving their first signs of dying out.

I tried some Makita in there, they didn't last long and I chewed through a bunch of batteries.

It's more, but I think it's a better value.

Van Huskey

12-04-2018, 12:26 PM

The last time I bought anything was in 2012 and I bought three sets.

I think you may find they don't compete like they used to if and when you need to buy more. 2012 was around the time they held the biggest advantage over the other manufacturers since then they have done little or anything to keep up. It is a shame really, they always had an advantage on the battery side since they could cherry pick cells from their production.

Mike Henderson

12-04-2018, 12:38 PM

I switched to LiIon because of the weight. I did a job with my older 18V DeWalt tools where I had to drill a bunch of pilot holes and then put screws in. The tools just got heavy. I went out and bought a set of DeWalt 12V tools - much lighter. Then switched my bigger tools to the DeWalt 20V tools. Sold my 18V tools cheap.

Of course, I'm fairly old and that may account for my finding the 18V tools heavy. A younger person may not have the same experience.

Mike

Jeremy Snow

12-04-2018, 12:54 PM

18V DeWalt for me as long as they keep working. I have about a dozen ni-cads and four of these li-ion.
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The real issue for me is the eco-system of tools with this type of battery that I have. I remember going into OSH and being able to pickup a new drill with two batteries for less than the cost of two batteries. Three drills made building up a ipe wood gate so much faster, through drill, oversize for screw and countersink, screw, all with no bit changes.

I'd love to move to the new DeWalt or Milwaukee but I'd rather buy wood instead of eight new tools.

Mark Bolton

12-04-2018, 1:03 PM

We still have several Makita NiMH drills and impact drivers in the shop that are ancient as cordless tools go and they are still going strong. My only beef with the LiOn batteries (we inherited a bunch of Makita LXT's when we bought a guys entire tool inventory who got injured) is that when the pack craps out you cant have them re-built because no one can reset the internals. Im sure this is a liability issue for the manufacturer but that was a major bonus for us with NiMH and earlier. We had an old PC 19.2v setup that we sent batteries out repeatedly to be rebuilt at half the cost of new and for more Ah ratings than factory. The Makita's just have to be recycled.

I have 3 of the Makita NimH batteries that could go out for rebuild now but havent sent them.

I agree, the weight and power to size ratio of the lion's is very nice but I dont care for the battery life and cost at this point.

John K Jordan

12-04-2018, 4:48 PM

I also have some Makita tools (excellent) but no cordless. The huge advantage is sticking with one brand. My Odd Man is one Hitachi impact driver with 3 LiIon batteries that built much of my shop, some decks and a lot of my farm construction. It simply won't quit.

JKJ

John,
My original intention was to use the DeWalt until it's NiCads gave out, then get the adapter & charger. In the meantime, I had a Black and Decker 18 V set - sander, drill, reciprocating saw and circular saw - that I used to destruction. By the time the B&D was destroyed, a great deal on the 12 V Milwaukee came along (it uses LiIon) that I just couldn't pass up. I looked at the prices of the adapter & charger and decided to just get a new drill for $99 that came with 2 batteries and a charger.

They a couple years later, there was a fabulous sale on a cordless Makita track saw - so - I picked that up. One hing led to another & I found myself wanting a Makita cordless router and a Makita cordless multifunction tool. On Black Friday. HD had a 3 piece Makita set (drill, impact driver and circular saw - plus two free tools - the router and MF tool) for $399 - plus another charger and two more 4 amp batteries.

So bottom line. I've more or less changed over to all Makita cordless for the 18 V stuff.

Stephen Rosenthal

12-04-2018, 6:31 PM

Bosch 18v cordless drill, first and only cordless tool I own, unless you consider all my hand tools, the ultimate cordless tool. Replaced batteries once, never again. Cost me more than a combo drill/impact driver kit. While the drill has served me well and I'll keep it until this set of batteries die, I still kick myself for not going with the combo kit.

Mike Kees

12-04-2018, 7:29 PM

Martin Wasner

12-04-2018, 8:06 PM

Makita used to charge the batteries in 15 minutes. It's too fast for the cheap cells that are used. They just can't handle the amperage going back in. Lithium ion/polymer/iron batteries start coming apart chemically if they get pushed too hard. They also don't like going below a certain voltage, or they don't recover. That's why all of the new cordless tools hit a voltage cutoff and just quit, pulling any more juice out causes the voltage to sag too much damaging the cells.

Nihm batteries are a lot more forgiving.

Mike Kees

12-05-2018, 10:45 AM

Well today is a good day ,I learned something.I actually like the way the batteries just stop when they need to be charged,instead of slowly winding down. Now I know why. Thanks, Martin.

John K Jordan

12-05-2018, 11:26 AM

Well today is a good day ,I learned something.I actually like the way the batteries just stop when they need to be charged,instead of slowly winding down. Now I know why. Thanks, Martin.

Good LiIon batteries themselves have circuitry to prevent being drawn too low and the chargers are designed to monitor and prevent damage from overcharging. The tiny cheap LiIon batteries used in micro RC heli and quad copters, for example, don't have the protection and the pilot is cautioned to land immediately when noticing reduced power. If drawn too low, the batteries cannot even be recharged, even if not fatally damaged. (BTW, these tiny things are great fun in the shop!)

My cordless tools or the batteries themselves have a push-button power monitor to check the charge. This can give you a heads up to have a charged battery handy. I suspect all the brands have this.

JKJ

Mark Bolton

12-05-2018, 11:49 AM

Mark when you say that you dont care for the battery life of lithium ion ,are you getting longer life from NiMH batteries ? I wonder if that is a climate thing ? I really considered Makita,a lot of trades were using them here in Alberta about 5-10 years ago. We had huge issues with the batteries crapping out. This was the main reason I went Milwaukee. Here in the hot summer to real cold winter lithium ion lasts about 2.5 times longer than any of the others.

All I can say is I have NiMh makita impacts that are still running that are probably about 15 years old. I have a bunch of LXT's that we picked up in a tool lot from a guy who got injured and there were I believe 10 or 12 LXT batteries in the lot, a couple impacts, chuck drill, sawzall, circ, etc.. the 12 batteries were mix of the larger and the smaller LXT. Have probably had them for about 8 years and several of the LXT batteries are long since dead.

Like I say, my main beef, and Im sure its true with much of the new battery technology, is they are no longer rebuildable. It gets old buying $100 batteries when you can buy kit for a couple hundred plus.

Brian Henderson

12-05-2018, 12:16 PM

Simon MacGowen

12-05-2018, 12:28 PM

It gets old buying $100 batteries when you can buy kit for a couple hundred plus.

Same thing with computers...I paid $60 fixing a laptop which lasted less than two years after the fix. I am still kicking myself for not spending that money on a new laptop instead, which is faster, lighter and bigger (in harddisk storage). Lesson learned...mistake will never be repeated.

Simon

Martin Wasner

12-05-2018, 1:28 PM

Good LiIon batteries themselves have circuitry to prevent being drawn too low and the chargers are designed to monitor and prevent damage from overcharging. The tiny cheap LiIon batteries used in micro RC heli and quad copters, for example, don't have the protection and the pilot is cautioned to land immediately when noticing reduced power. If drawn too low, the batteries cannot even be recharged, even if not fatally damaged. (BTW, these tiny things are great fun in the shop!)

My cordless tools or the batteries themselves have a push-button power monitor to check the charge. This can give you a heads up to have a charged battery handy. I suspect all the brands have this.

JKJ

Typically it's not the battery that determines the cut off, it's the controller in the tool that does it. That might not always be the case or at all with cordless tools though.

Robert Parent

12-05-2018, 2:01 PM

I am still using a Bosch 14.4v drill.... It still works very well so no reason to dispose of it. I also have some of the newer tech drills as well.

Robert

Mark Bolton

12-05-2018, 2:14 PM

Typically it's not the battery that determines the cut off, it's the controller in the tool that does it. That might not always be the case or at all with cordless tools though.

Is the controller in the tool or in the battery? I have been waiting for someone to come up with a hack to rehab the Makita LXT's but everyone tells me there is a board in the battery that when it says the pack is dead there is no getting around it. It'd seem the battery status would have to be in the battery itself to disallow charging when its put on the charger.

John K Jordan

12-05-2018, 4:23 PM

Typically it's not the battery that determines the cut off, it's the controller in the tool that does it. That might not always be the case or at all with cordless tools though.

I know nothing about the differences between battery control circuits in power tools compared to other applications. Perhaps things used to be different or are different now from when I studied this. (The more I read, the more I was impressed with the complexity of the ubiquitous batteries in my cell phone and iPad.) In addition to internal temperature and over-pressure sensors and vents, I understood internal battery charge/discharge protection was commonly implemented. Some stuff from the Battery University, "BU-304b: Making Lithium-ion Safe" from a year or so ago:

---------------------------------------------------------------
Li-ion commonly discharges to 3.0V/cell. The lowest permitted “low-voltage” power cut-off is 2.5V/cell. It is not advised to keep the battery at that level as self-discharge could bring the cell to its cut-off voltage, causing the battery to go into sleep mode. Most chargers ignore Li-ion packs that have gone to sleep and a charge is no longer possible. (See BU-808a: How to Awaken Sleeping Li-ion.)

In the ON position, the internal protection circuit has a resistance of 50–100mOhm, lower on power packs. The circuit typically consists of two switches connected in series; one is responsible for the high cut-off, and the other for the low cut-off. Larger packs need a more careful design than a smaller battery, and single cell packs for mobile phones and tablets get away with a voltage and current limit in addition to some intrinsic cell protection. (See BU-802a: How does Rising Internal Resistance affect Performance?)

Some low-cost consumer chargers may rely solely on the battery’s protection circuit to terminate the charge. Redundancy is paramount for safety, and unknowingly to the buyer, low-cost consumer chargers may be offered that do not have properly functioning charge algorithms. This could be a vehicular charger for a mobile phone or an e-cigarette.
---------------------------------------------------------------

The better chargers sense conditions independently: In addition to internal cell safeguards, an external electronic protection circuit prevents any cell from exceeding 4.30V on charge. In addition, a fuse cuts the current if the skin temperature of any cell approaches 90°C (194°F). To prevent the battery from over-discharging, a control circuit cuts off the current path at about 2.20V/cell.

I certainly am no battery guru but my friend Joe is, he knows everything. He probably knows about the typical power tool implementations. I'll try to catch him and ask.

BTW, anyone interested in electronics and batteries might browse the Battery University site.

JKJ

Bill Dufour

12-05-2018, 5:06 PM

I have a lot of Makita 9.6 stick batterytools. 6-7 drills, 2 right angle drills, jig saw, clippers, flashlight etc. Good enough for me. If they made a lion battery to fit I might try.
Bil lD.

Martin Wasner

12-05-2018, 6:09 PM

Is the controller in the tool or in the battery? I have been waiting for someone to come up with a hack to rehab the Makita LXT's but everyone tells me there is a board in the battery that when it says the pack is dead there is no getting around it. It'd seem the battery status would have to be in the battery itself to disallow charging when its put on the charger.

Most cases.... most, the ESC (electronic speed control) is what has the low voltage cut off in it. A battery is just cells wired in series or parallel to achieve a certain voltage or Mah rating, or both. I think Li-Ion is similar to a Li-Po battery for voltage, 3.7V per cell. Whereas Ni-Mh and Ni-Cad are both 1.5v per cell. Li-Po is a way better battery in terms of performace and size, but they're volatile and if they aren't charged correctly have this nasty habit of starting fires that can't be put out.

I only know anything about batteries from flying RC planes, and racing RC cars. There it's all controlled by the esc. I'm about 90% sure that's how the lithium packs in my Panasonic drill and impacts are too. New stuff in regards to cordless tools? No idea. Some of the DJI quadcopters have smart batteries, so maybe companies are doing it with tools as well. It makes the battery that much more expensive.

Battery tech and brushless motors have come a long ways even in the past few years. As has charging. To charge my Li-Po packs, I use a $400 charger with a separate power supply so it's getting clean DC. Thats also how I know you can't pack the amps back into a lithium battery the way Makita used to do it and not cause some harm to the pack.

The chargers should be keeping track of the voltage of each individual cell and balancing the voltage between them. That's why the Lithium batteries have multiple terminals, but the tool only has the two prongs. Over charging damages the chemicals, as does allowing the voltage to go to low. It will adjust the amperage that is being applied to the each cell as they get closer to the end voltage as well. The charger I use for RC stuff will measure the resistance in each cell, if one is going bad, I know it pretty quick and dispose of it.

All really useless stupid stuff you don't need to know unless you're into RC stuff. Tools, drop it on the charger, when it no worky, get a new one.

Mike Kees

12-05-2018, 7:39 PM

I did not switch to have new technology . Waited until all my old stuff was shot to heck. Then replaced about four different brands with one brand so batteries can be shared. Really important when you are using tools for a living with employees.

Rich Engelhardt

12-06-2018, 6:08 AM

Brian Henderson

12-06-2018, 11:51 AM

Carl Beckett

12-06-2018, 3:37 PM

This link should clear up any questions about the Makita system. The tools, battery and chargers all communicate with each other.

There are hacks out there. Albeit questionable and likely not safe to prevent over charging. I fought these LXT batteries a few years ago (and you can find some old posts here on the topic). I even tore a battery pack apart and swapped good cells for bad cells and recombined and charged with a current limiting power supply. (There are individual cells, 6 as I remember in the 3.0 versions). If one goes bad it not longer works. It is a hack in the true/original sense of the work 'hack'. Meaning not really a viable solution (and reasonable risk of blowing up a battery which could cause injury).

The newer batteries seem to be better. The pricing is as high as ever. I recently purchased a set of 4 generic/china LXT batteries off ebay, they were a fraction of the Makita branded ones. Two were DOA (but still cheaper overall than Makita branded), but the supplier is sending me two more. Whether they hold up long term is yet to be determined.

Someone mentioned the earlier chargers tried to charge too fast. If that is the case, and the new chargers have changed the charge rate to be more reliable, then I would certainly invest in a new charger (I have two chargers now but older units). If anyone can confirm this please point me to a reference.

Personally if I were just starting out and not already invested into misc Makita LXT tools, I would pick a different brand platform. Simply due to the terrible experience I have had on battery life.

(ps I have also heard to not let them get too cold)

Mark Bolton

12-06-2018, 3:49 PM

You can often jump start those batteries if the battery is too low for the charger to recognize it. Just jump across the positive and negative leads from a good battery for a couple of minutes, it will put enough of a charge into the battery for it to work on the charger again.

Ill give it a go and see. Thanks for the tip. I had read an article a while back from a guy disassembling these and the article spoke to the first two cells in the pack failing because they power the onboard battery management even when the battery is sitting three and if the charger/battery gets a red/green error 3 times it locks the battery out permanently. Never looked into being able to swap out or change out the boards.

Kevin Beitz

12-06-2018, 5:10 PM

I rebuild my battery's... After my first two I said i would never do it again. Then I tried again. The trick that makes it easy is to hot glue stick melt them together when doing it. Liquid electric tape also helps. If you don't glue them together it get dangerous when the wire end start touching. E-bay sell the cells cheap.

Curt Harms

12-07-2018, 6:08 AM

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Like I say, my main beef, and Im sure its true with much of the new battery technology, is they are no longer rebuildable. It gets old buying $100 batteries when you can buy kit for a couple hundred plus.

MTO offers rebuilds on some LiIon batteries. I don't know about the economics.

https://www.mtobattery.com/collections/power-tool/li-ion-battery-rebuilds