Electric cars

[Eric C Stoltzfus]

On Monday of Last week an automotive startup called Rivian released two new vehicles. At the LA auto show they released the R1T and the R1S. The R1T is a crew cab short bed electric pickup with some amazing specs. 0-60 in 3 seconds, and a range of over 400 miles. This is comparable to a Tesla model X. It promises to have tremendous offload capabilities with a 14 inch ground clearance and a 3 foot wading depth. 750 hp and 10,000 pound ft of torque. They also released a 7 seat SUV with similar specs. Pricing starts at 69k, and 100k for a 180 kw/hr battery. The company has bought an old Mitsubishi plant in Normal, IL and has 500 employees, in IL, CA, and the UK. They are taking preorders now, and plan to start production in 2020. This is the first serious electric pickup to be released.

I think electric vehicles are soon going to take over our roads. Honestly, I'm somewhat excited about the prospects. Electric cars have better performance than ICE. What are your thoughts on Electric Cars?

[Jim Becker]

I'm all for it and clearly that's the trend. But it's going to take a lot more time for EV to become more ubiquitous on the road. Right now, the entry cost is still too high but that should mitigate as battery technology continues to mature and improve and economy of scale kicks in. That's also required for support infrastructure to happen, too. I'm glad to see more players trying to make a go of this and the big vehicle manufacturers are also pouring development money in that direction, too.

[Dan Friedrichs]

I was choosing between a "cheap" and "nice" oil filter wrench, recently, and realized that it didn't need to be a "lifetime" tool for me, because 5 years from now, I'll probably never need to change a oil filter, ever again.

As soon as some of the noise settles, I'll be replacing both our gas cars with electrics. I already replaced our lawnmower with a cordless electric, and could not be happier.

[Bruce Volden]

I listened to a radio talk show a couple years back (Under The Hood?).
A local Sioux Falls man bought an electric car-Tesla. He drove it between SF and Sioux City IA for his job.
He really liked it, fast, quiet, no fuel costs....
Winter came and he left SF for SC one particularly cold morn--well below 0* F.
No problems going down but nearly froze to death on the way home, he said it was fully charged leaving SF.
I would certainly hope battery tech advances to the point of keeping us warm up here in the cold zones.

Bruce

[Perry Hilbert Jr]

The changes in electric storage and efficiency of motors has gone a long way in the past 25 years. A jr high school buddy had an electric bike his father built. Car starter motor, a car battery and a creude rheostat for speed. It would go a half mile before we had to push it back home. Not a glowing prospect for the future of electric vehicles. However, the advances made, in light weight alloy frames and plastics could do alot for such vehicles. I am still amazed at the crazy compressed air car sold in India. Uses a weed wacker engine to compress air in a tank and then the compressed air drives the vehicle for a number of miles before it has to "rest" and let the engine build up the pressure again. For commuting and running short hops, I seems ideal.

One of the ideas I liked was the old Sparrow, electric vehicle. They had two wheels up front and a single drive wheel in the back. Sat one person in a low airplane cockpit type cabin. Would go up to 70 mph. I saw two of them used to commute in and out of DC 25 years ago.

[Art Mann]

There is a fallacy in the 400 mile range specification. This was pointed out in a documentary I watched on Youtube involving two guys going cross country from the Pacific to the Atlantic coast in a Tesla model X. The fallacy has to do with the number and distribution of charging stations compatible with the vehicle. Suppose I am planning a trip between 2 cities 450 miles apart. Further suppose there are two charging stations, one at 185 miles from the start and one at the destination. This distribution is typical of of Tesla and closer than some areas of the country. What that means is my range is really 185 miles because I will be forced to stop for a protracted time period to top off my batteries before proceeding to my destination. I don't know whether Rivian vehicles are able to make use of Tesla charging stations, but if they are not, then the cross country trips might be impossible from a practical sense. In the documentary, the guys charged their vehicle in Las Vegas but were unable to go by the Grand Canyon as planned because there were no charging stations that would allow a round trip that far. I would not want a vehicle that required me to plan my trips around charging stations but that is exactly what happened in the documentary.

[Pat Barry]

Electric golfcarts are way better than gas. Someday this may be true for automobiles as well. Probably not within the near future however. To me, they are just a rich persons novelty.

[mike holden]

Besides infrastructure (which, if given the demand, will be built by entrepreneurs), where is all the energy to charge the electric cars going to come from?
I could go on, but this is the largest stumbling block for wide spread adoption of electric vehicles.
Mike

[Mike Henderson]

Besides infrastructure (which, if given the demand, will be built by entrepreneurs), where is all the energy to charge the electric cars going to come from?
I could go on, but this is the largest stumbling block for wide spread adoption of electric vehicles.
Mike

Most people will use their electric vehicles for commuting and errands during the day and charge them at night. At night, there's an excess of power available. The electric companies are giving incentives to EV owners to set a timer on their charger (at home) so that the charging occurs after midnight and before about 6am.

A bigger question is how will we tax electric vehicles to pay for the roads. Today, we pay tax on fuel but there's no "road tax" on electricity (yet).

Mike

[Jim Koepke]

What are your thoughts on Electric Cars?

They are the future. Hopefully they will be in mine.

Currently they do have a frightening aspect. My neighbor has a Chevy Volt. It is often silent as it rolls along the road. Our road has no sidewalks and it is a bit scary after dark going out to check the mail and wondering if they might be rolling up behind me.

jtk

[Lee Schierer]

Our road has no sidewalks and it is a bit scary after dark going out to check the mail and wondering if they might be rolling up behind me.

jtk

Wouldn't the head lights give you a clue they were coming?

[Yathin Krishnappa]

B...where is all the energy to charge the electric cars going to come from?

I have access to a fusion reactor in the sky.

For people who continue to slander electric cars, what is the big plan after we run out of gas, coal, clean air and clean water? We can't just do nothing about it when there are options available.




A bigger question is how will we tax electric vehicles to pay for the roads. Today, we pay tax on fuel but there's no "road tax" on electricity (yet).


I'm happy to pay extra for annual registration, and I think there's a senate bill for that introduced by Sen. Barrasso(?). It will be solved and is not a big problem. The bigger question is all about how to make electric cars more affordable and drive up its adoption.

[Mike Henderson]

I'm happy to pay extra for annual registration, and I think there's a senate bill for that introduced by Sen. Barrasso(?). It will be solved and is not a big problem. The bigger question is all about how to make electric cars more affordable and drive up its adoption.

I'm not sure that a fee at registration would be the fair way to do a road tax. My opinion is that the tax should be based on how much you use the roads and not just on the ownership of a vehicle. Today, the fuel tax is an indirect way of taxing use. It also charges people who purchase vehicles that use a lot of fuel more than those who purchase vehicles that use less fuel.

I participated in a study here in CA where they're looking at different ways to charge for the use of the roads. One way was to do it by miles driven, which you would report each year. While someone could lie, we have vehicle inspections for pollution every couple of years and mileage is reported as part of that inspection, so they'd catch people who under report.

But taxing simply on mileage does not capture some other things that a fuel tax captures. Heavier vehicles, which put more stress on the roads, generally use more fuel and thus pay more tax. People who purchase a vehicle which is not fuel efficient (and thus emits more pollution) pay a higher tax.

A "perfect" alternate road tax would continue these effects but I don't know what that system is yet.

Mike

[Yathin Krishnappa]

Love electric cars. I've been driving electric cars almost exclusively for the last few years now and I'm excited to have more options on the market today than when I got my first electric car. In my family, our daily drivers are all electric cars (note the car maker's juvenile sense of humor in names of their cars) but there have been times that I wished I had a gas car. Electric cars today are terrible at hauling and chargers are not built for cars towing something (see picture of me trying to charge while hauling one of my father-in-law's cars). Hopefully that will be solved sometime, but today there's always an option to rent/borrow a gas-powered car like I've done on a few occasions.

397982 397983

[Yathin Krishnappa]

But taxing simply on mileage does not capture some other things that a fuel tax captures. Heavier vehicles, which put more stress on the roads, generally use more fuel and thus pay more tax. People who purchase a vehicle which is not fuel efficient (and thus emits more pollution) pay a higher tax.

A "perfect" alternate road tax would continue these effects but I don't know what that system is yet.

Mike

In New York, heavier cars pay more in registration already. For electric cars, the equivalent to gas mileage is kWh -- heavier cars like the Model X use a lot more power for the same distance traveled when compared to lighter cars like the Bolt or the BMW i3. So, taxation can be on kWh rather than miles.

We didn't have gas tax on day one of gasoline cars, or even the first few decades. I believe it was sometime in the 1930's or 1940's when they started taxing gas? So, we'll get there. Even electric cars need good roads... unless there's a drone revolution on the horizon. :-)

[Roger Feeley]

One of the coolest innovations is by Bollinger. They realized that since there is no engine up front, they could put a tailgate in the front of the vehicle and you can run a 16' board through the bed, through the passenger compartment and out the front.

https://www.bollingermotors.com/#image-gallery-39

I don't know if it will ever see the light of day but I like the idea.

[Roger Feeley]

My biggest concern about electric vehicles is the availability of rare earths, specifically neodymium for magnets. Presently, China controls some 87% of the worlds supply or rare earth elements (REE) and that needs to change. Without an alternative source, we are just trading one sort of cartel for another.

There are plenty of REEs around but not in sufficient concentration. For instance, if you refine the REEs out of coal fly ash, you can get about 135lbs but you have to process 125 tons of fly ash to get there.

I would prefer to see super strong magnets made from some more available materials like nickel.

[Rick Potter]

Don't forget there are three basic kinds of electrified cars, to meet needs of different people.

1: Hybrids, like the regular Prius, use the gas motor almost all the time, with battery operation for short distances, and at stop lights, etc. My Daughter had one and averaged about 50 MPG overall.

2: Plug in Hybrids. Lots of them around, they go a certain distance on battery (20-50 miles or so), then switch to the gas motor. At this point they operate like the above Hybrids until charged up.

3: All electric: BEV's (battery electric vehicles), like the Tesla, run entirely on electricity. This type is the only one with what is called 'range anxiety'. Every year the new ones get better range. The new Kia Soul will have over 250 miles or more, as does the Chevy Bolt.

Every person's needs vary. In my case, I put solar on the house and was producing more than I used. I bought a 2013 Ford C-Max Energi (plug in hybrid). The wife liked it enough to take it away from me, and I bought another. A 2014, just like it. They go about 20 miles then switch to gas.

These cars have about 25K on each. Each one has been driven to visit friends in Idaho, averaging 37MPG using all gas.
Our normal running around is mostly done on electric, if we run out it switches to gas almost undetectably. We plug the car in every time we get home no matter how much power we used. This allows us to hop in a fully charged car every time we leave the garage.

We normally fill up on gas about every four months. There is a meter on the dash that keeps track of the gas mileage, based only on the gasoline used. Her car reads 140 MPG since new, mine reads 104. Mine runs out of juice more often because of where I go, so gas use is higher.

The new Porsche Panamera coming out in a few months is reported to be a plug in hybrid, along with other expensive European cars. Plug in hybrids are being quickly developed because of new European and Chinese laws.

Hope this background info is informative for those who have little electric car experience..

[Alan Rutherford]

We just upgraded from a 2005 Prius to a 2015 Prius and have been very happy with both. We didn't buy the first one because it was a Prius - it was just a decent car, right size, right price. The current one is all that but this time we wanted another Prius. I'm not at all opposed to all-electric but hybrid is here now and needs no charging stations. With about 10 gallons usable in the tank it has a range on the highway of 450- 500 miles and "recharges" at any gas station in the time it takes to pump less than 10 gallons.

Consumer Reports a few years ago said electricity for the Tesla cost $.04 per mile, assuming an average cost for electricity. That's also what we were paying for gas for the Prius (more like $.05/mile now) and it costs a lot less to buy a Prius.

What I'm anxious to see is self-driving cars and we're getting there. I expect this to be the last conventional car we buy. I want a car where I can say "Go get washed, get an oil change and pick up the groceries", slap it on the rump and watch it go. It's coming.

[Jim Koepke]

Wouldn't the head lights give you a clue they were coming?

The road is a rather winding road in the hills. From the direction behind me when walking to my mailbox, there wouldn't be much headlight observation before the car was right on me.

My trip to the mailbox during the dark days of winter has my paying more attention when out on the road. Though now my worries are also valid in the summer when there is no need for headlights, the car is still very quiet.

jtk

[Steve Eure]

I would be interested in seeing what the electric demands would be if the majority of people started driving EV's. Our energy companies are barely keeping pace with the electrical demands now, and with the added demand for charging batteries it could overwhelm them. Of course I sure they are working on a fix for that also.

[Art Mann]

When we run out of fossil fuels, we won't be driving very far, even if we have electric cars. Very little electricity is now generated by renewable resources and the current renewable sources can't be ramped up to the levels required to replace fossil fuels. That is just wishful thinking. There are no other options available, with the possible exception of nuclear energy.

As far as the environment goes, it is in better shape now than it has been in the last 50 years I have been paying attention to it.


For people who continue to slander electric cars, what is the big plan after we run out of gas, coal, clean air and clean water? We can't just do nothing about it when there are options available.

[Yathin Krishnappa]

As far as the environment goes, it is in better shape now than it has been in the last 50 years I have been paying attention to it.

Are you trying to troll or do you really believe that?




When we run out of fossil fuels, we won't be driving very far, even if we have electric cars. Very little electricity is now generated by renewable resources and the current renewable sources can't be ramped up to the levels required to replace fossil fuels. That is just wishful thinking. There are no other options available, with the possible exception of nuclear energy.

The solar panels on my house power my and my wife's 40 mile commutes each day. I'm sure that distance is more than a majority of daily commutes around the world. So, if we all had daily drivers powered by renewable sources, we can save the use of fossil fuels for things that really need them - heavy machinery, military and such...

We will get there.

[Terry Hatfield]

We campaigned an electric powered dragster for a few years. Really fun and satisfying project once we figured out how to stop destroying a motor every time I hit the pedal. Of course we were sending 200 volts and 2000 amps to a golf cart motor so there is that. lol... Anyway, as to the silence of electric, it was interesting for me to have to say "excuse me" over and over again as I moved thru the staging lanes and onto the track. The little dragster garnered little attention until people saw it rip off 100 mph 1/8th mile passes. Then our pit was filled with folks with lots of questions. No clue what any of this has to do with this discussion but thought I'd share anyway. :D

https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8656/28806556655_828eb8f80d_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/KTx8FV)

[Edwin Santos]

Are you trying to troll or do you really believe that?




The solar panels on my house power my and my wife's 40 mile commutes each day. I'm sure that distance is more than a majority of daily commutes around the world. So, if we all had daily drivers powered by renewable sources, we can save the use of fossil fuels for things that really need them - heavy machinery, military and such...

We will get there.

I'm betting you're absolutely correct. It's undeniable that none of us can see the future. So we all suffer from some degree of blindness looking forward.
Add to this our individual biases, insecurities, preferences, etc.
But we can all see the past in 20/20 and I'd say where we are today with electric vehicles and technology in general would have been unthinkable to 99% of the population, myself included, only 20 years ago.
So if this is any indication, I'd say it's hard to declare with a whole lot of conviction that electric vehicles will be limited, inadequate, etc. etc., or that anything will take a "long, long time".

In the same way that the Earth is spinning at 1,000 mph but we don't feel it, the technology is evolving more rapidly than we truly notice.

On a partially related note, I wonder how much range anxiety existed in the early days of the automobile before gas and service stations became abundant? Just like gas station attendants are now only found in history books and period movies, it may not be long before gas stations themselves are a relic of the past. Remember milk delivery and film photo processing places?
More recently, remember software stores where you would go and buy physical boxed software? I remember an interview with Larry Ellison about 15 years ago where he said the idea of getting in your car, driving to a store, buying a box of software on a CD, driving home, and installing it on your computer would feel as primitive as setting down your club and starting a fire by banging two flint rocks together.

We're all in for a great ride,

[Mike Cutler]

Electric vehicles are coming. It will take time to develop the infrastructure, but it will happen.
In the early days of gasoline powered vehicles, trips revolved around the location of "Filling Stations". As the demand for these increased, the need was met. The same will happen with the electric cars. Right now they are suited to the more urban environment, but will expand.
Renewable energies will certainly progress also, but this thread was about cars.

Art Mann
"As far as the environment goes, it is in better shape now than it has been in the last 50 years I have been paying attention to it."

Yathin Krishnappa
"Are you trying to troll or do you really believe that?"

I do not believe that Art is "trolling". I also agree with Art. I am 59 years old and I can tell you that we are much better off today, than in 1978.
The US has increased it's population by 150 million people since 1968, and a 125million since 1978. The time frame between 1968 and 1978 was probably the beginning of the environmental awareness in the country. Also the beginning of some of the government agencies that regulate environmental cleanliness.
For having an increase in 150 million people over the past 50 years, we are a lot better off environmentally than where we were in 1978. Had we not had the awareness that began in the late 60's, going outside today would be just awful.
This isn't trolling, this is the experience of living through all of these changes.

I work in a facility that puts 2200 Megawatts to the grid with zero carbon pollution, in any weather condition. Yet we are not the future. People want to believe in "free energy", such as solar panels, but it doesn't exist. Energy is not free, there is always a price.

[Bryan Lisowski]

To me, the cost of entry is still one of the biggest issues I see. The other is range. I know if I have to make a 600 mile trip, I'm going to have to stop for gas, but that only takes a few minutes, and is easy to find. I don't know how long it takes to fully charge a tesla so my next point may not be relevant. I would be interested to know if one of the gas companies (Exxon, Shell, or BP) decided to put charging stations at their traditional locations and charge a fee, would it make electric vehicles more realistic.

[Dan Friedrichs]

As far as the environment goes, it is in better shape now than it has been in the last 50 years I have been paying attention to it.

An interesting comment, given the timing. Did you miss the news of the report (https://www.globalchange.gov/nca4) indicating that immediate action is needed to prevent catastrophic loss of life and massive reduction in GDP due to pollution from burning fossil fuels? It's very short-sighted to say, "Well when I was a kid, we saw soot everywhere, but now I don't see that, so pollution must be gone"

A major limiter of renewable energy is storage. Electric cars are distributed storage. We can rely more heavily on alternative energy when it can be stored in all the cars plugged in and not in use.

[John Goodin]

My wife works in the technology and transportation policy field and electric and autonomous vechiles are coming — faster than most people realize. Most of the major manufacturers are sinking big bucks into autonomous car R&D including GM, Ford, the Japanese manufacturers, even Google and Apple. Range anxiety is a big issue with all electric which can be offset with plug in hybrids until the range improves. I wonder if restaurants, Starbucks, etc along interstates will add charging stations if all electrics become popular — stop for a meal or coffee get a free charge. I know many hotels have added charging stations. It can be a good way to attract customers.

[Dave Lehnert]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=59wE2FMZevU

[Doug Garson]

When we run out of fossil fuels, we won't be driving very far, even if we have electric cars. Very little electricity is now generated by renewable resources and the current renewable sources can't be ramped up to the levels required to replace fossil fuels. That is just wishful thinking. There are no other options available, with the possible exception of nuclear energy.

As far as the environment goes, it is in better shape now than it has been in the last 50 years I have been paying attention to it.

I agree if we continue to turn fossil fuels into CO2 until they run out then we won't be driving much because the planet will be unlivable.

[Rod Sheridan]

Most people will use their electric vehicles for commuting and errands during the day and charge them at night. At night, there's an excess of power available. The electric companies are giving incentives to EV owners to set a timer on their charger (at home) so that the charging occurs after midnight and before about 6am.

A bigger question is how will we tax electric vehicles to pay for the roads. Today, we pay tax on fuel but there's no "road tax" on electricity (yet).

Mike

Very true Mike, where I live we have time of use electricity pricing, because as you said there are periods of excess capacity.

If you owned an automobile at the beginning of their development, you also had fueling station shortages.

Those problems will be solved for electric vehicles soon, as their popularity increases.........Rod.

[roger wiegand]

I suspect "range anxiety" is just that, and that there are solutions that will deal with it easily. As of today, 95% of trips are shorter than 30 miles, and 99% are below 70 miles. The weighted average trip distance is 9.4 miles. Vehicles owned by urban households averaged 8.5 miles and rural vehicles averaged 12.1 miles. So 99% of all travel is readily covered. We made one driving trip over 400 miles in the last year in our own car (several more in rented cars after we flew to our destination). It would have been pretty painless to have to rent a hybrid or use a Zipcar to make that trip and be all electric for the rest of the year for our daily use. Some individuals, obviously, have different needs, but why design our entire transportation infrastructure to handle the few exceptions?

There is an interesting experiment going on where Teslas have been deployed as fleet vehicles that get operated many more miles/day than family cars. The early data seems to suggest that because of much lower maintenance costs of the all electric vehicle that total cost of ownership per mile is much lower than for a gas vehicle even when comparing a $120K Tesla to a $40K gas engine car. They suggested that these vehicles were going to have useful lifetimes of 600-750,000 miles or more over 2-4 years of use with minimal maintenance costs. With a Zipcar-like model that keeps the vehicles in heavy use the costs could be enough lower to cause many people to use a shared car rather than own one. For the young, urban folks I know this is already becoming the model of choice. I'd guess that fewer than one in five people under 35 in the Boston/Cambridge area choose to own a car; most are perfectly happy with Uber, Lyft, and Zipcar (and a bicycle).

[Jim Becker]

We campaigned an electric powered dragster for a few years. Really fun and satisfying project once we figured out how to stop destroying a motor every time I hit the pedal. Of course we were sending 200 volts and 2000 amps to a golf cart motor so there is that. lol... Anyway, as to the silence of electric, it was interesting for me to have to say "excuse me" over and over again as I moved thru the staging lanes and onto the track. The little dragster garnered little attention until people saw it rip off 100 mph 1/8th mile passes. Then our pit was filled with folks with lots of questions. No clue what any of this has to do with this discussion but thought I'd share anyway.

Terry, one of the huge performance advantages to electric motors is the incredible torque they have...acceleration can be amazing. Even the two "Prii" we owned were no slouches in that respect as was the heavier Highlander Hybrid Limited I owned before buying my Grand Cherokee. The acceleration was actually a good safety factor for us as getting out of our driveway with the ever increasing traffic can sometimes be a challenge. If you try to wait for a big opening in both directions, you can be sitting there long enough to consume a four course meal. :) Some of the highest performance vehicles on the planet right now are electrics...

[Yathin Krishnappa]

I was thinking that this may be useful to add to this thread.

During the summer, I did a 5000 mile road trip from New York to Wyoming and back in my Model X and range anxiety was a constant presence. There's a stretch in South Dakota between Rapid City and Murdo that is 134 miles and the speed limit is 80 where I almost ran out of charge. I don't think I would be able to do a winter trip on that stretch when the high plains get really cold. At first, I thought that the charging stops about every 100-150 miles or so would be super annoying, but in retrospect it was great because the time was well spent in walking, reading and/or eating. The car can mostly drive itself on highways, and it is unbelievably relaxing to just keep your eyes on the road to make sure the car doesn't do something crazy (it can!). There was only a handful of times I had to take control - mostly in construction zones. We are still a long way from full self-driving where you can read a book or sleep while the car drives, but this nearly-there self drive is still a big leap forward from cruise control.

And here's an interesting bit of news from Bloomberg today on the road blocks for adoption of electric cars: https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2018-11-04/electric-cars-face-a-6-trillion-barrier-to-widespread-adoption

[Malcolm Schweizer]

Electric cars, much like solar power, have finally reached a point where they make not just environmental sense, but financial sense as well. That was the key to them breaking through to the general public. I would already have solar except I have to fix my roof first, and then that's next. Where I live we have one of the highest energy costs in the world, so it makes solar actually cheaper in the long run than grid power, even when you factor in changing batteries every 5 years. I'm saving up to go off grid.

My friends have electric cars, and I am watching them closely. They do well here because you go up hill 1/2 the trip, then you're down hill the other 1/2 and it charges batteries on the downhill. In Barbados they now have charging stations at many businesses, and at one mall. In Bermuda and Bahamas they are popping up as well. My issues are: (1.) Batteries are a HUGE cost, and batteries don't last long here- which is why I'm watching my friends to see what their experience is, (2.) They are great if you have a driveway, but for people living in apartments, or in zero-lot-line homes, charging may be an issue, and (3.) as someone mentioned, they don't tow well. That said, they do have a lot of low-end torque, but not for up hills. I brought the first electric service vehicle to the island years back- a tow vehicle for pulling dollies around. (purpose made) It works great on flat, but not on hills. The battery didn't do so well here, but that was also partly due to employees abusing it and not following proper charging procedure.

I'm a gearhead, and I love tinkering with gas engines, but I would be happy to see them go. My boat is getting fitted with a propane outboard. I'm excited about that. I considered electric, but I don't have a lot of room for solar panels. It is at least a step forward.

I've heard people saying that mining lithium has a high carbon footprint, and in the end it makes the gain from battery powered cars not actually a gain. I don't believe that. I've seen oil refineries. They are horrible places with tons of environmental issues. Also, sure, maybe lithium is hard to mine, but it's saving burning gasoline every day in your car. Surely that's a better trade-off.

[Mike Cutler]

An interesting comment, given the timing. Did you miss the news of the report (https://www.globalchange.gov/nca4) indicating that immediate action is needed to prevent catastrophic loss of life and massive reduction in GDP due to pollution from burning fossil fuels? It's very short-sighted to say, "Well when I was a kid, we saw soot everywhere, but now I don't see that, so pollution must be gone"

A major limiter of renewable energy is storage. Electric cars are distributed storage. We can rely more heavily on alternative energy when it can be stored in all the cars plugged in and not in use.

Dan
When you factor in the increase in population over the last 50 years and the current pollution levels, based on lbs. per person, I think you'll find it is down on a per person basis. Without the reforms and regulations of the last 50 years it would be much, much, worse. It still is though, a significant issue that needs to be addressed.
I live in an area where virtually every river and stream qualified as a superfund site in the 70's,and were essentially "dead". The air quality was just awful then ,and the air particulates in PPM were horrendous. It's not that way any longer, and it's not just a visual "soot" indication, it's in measurable metrics.
60% + of all electricity in the US is generated by fossil fuels. Goal and Gas being the source. Coal is going by the wayside rapidly, and gas is overtaking it. There are way too many negatives associated with coal. Gas is definitely better, but it also has it's drawbacks. Nuclear Power is a dying industry and unless some type of intervention is effected, expect to see many more base load gas plants coming on line, as the nukes drop off line.
We are not there with respect to "renewable" energy sources, and may not be for decades. Solar panels are definitely not the answer. They simply cannot produce the same megawatts per unit square as a base load fossil, or nuke plant can. They also have a very significant drawback associated with end of life waste stream issues. We tend, as individuals, to look at the situation on a small scale, so while it is conceivable to power the electric needs for a single residence with renewables, it is just not possible as of now to power a city infrastructure with "renewable" energy.
The irony of the situation is that while we may feel as if our "individual carbon footprint" is decreasing by using electric cars, and solar panels for our homes, the reality is that it more than likely is not, at least not right now. Someday maybe.

BTW
I hate the term "renewable energy". It's a term made up to sell a concept. There is no "renewable" in energy.

[roger wiegand]

I'm very used to range anxiety, actually. When I drive my F350 diesel with the camper on it and pulling my fairground organ trailer my range is 220 to 230 miles, which means I start looking for fuel every 150 miles. Add to that the fact that I can't get my rig into more than half of the stations that are supposed to have diesel and you have a recipe for anxiety. More than once I've had to find a place to park and unhitch the trailer in order to get to the pumps. I'm sure they put the small tank (~32 gallons) on that truck to keep the weight down, but what a pain! I've started carrying a 5 gallon can to ferry fuel to the truck.

[Roger Feeley]

There is a fallacy in the 400 mile range specification. This was pointed out in a documentary I watched on Youtube involving two guys going cross country from the Pacific to the Atlantic coast in a Tesla model X. The fallacy has to do with the number and distribution of charging stations compatible with the vehicle. Suppose I am planning a trip between 2 cities 450 miles apart. Further suppose there are two charging stations, one at 185 miles from the start and one at the destination. This distribution is typical of of Tesla and closer than some areas of the country. What that means is my range is really 185 miles because I will be forced to stop for a protracted time period to top off my batteries before proceeding to my destination. I don't know whether Rivian vehicles are able to make use of Tesla charging stations, but if they are not, then the cross country trips might be impossible from a practical sense. In the documentary, the guys charged their vehicle in Las Vegas but were unable to go by the Grand Canyon as planned because there were no charging stations that would allow a round trip that far. I would not want a vehicle that required me to plan my trips around charging stations but that is exactly what happened in the documentary.

Interesting point but I don't know if I would call it a fallacy. The same limitation applies to ICE vehicles as well. It's just that we can find gas stations at frequent intervals. But there are times when you just have to stop and fill up because there won't be a gas station for some number of miles. The big difference is the time to recharge. If you have a range of 400 miles and a trip of 480 miles, you have to plan your stop strategically. That would be much easier to do if the charging stations were as common as gas stations.

Most electric cars I'm seeing now have a fairly fast (by electric standards) partial recharge time. Say, 80% in 30 minutes. If I wasn't going to do it every day, I think I would take that. To be honest, I probably don't get out of the car and walk around enough anyway.

Maybe the better point would be the infrastructure required of the station out in the middle of nowhere to charge 10-20 cars at once. That would be a lot of current and much more than it would take to operate a few pumps.

[Roger Feeley]

Most people will use their electric vehicles for commuting and errands during the day and charge them at night. At night, there's an excess of power available. The electric companies are giving incentives to EV owners to set a timer on their charger (at home) so that the charging occurs after midnight and before about 6am.

A bigger question is how will we tax electric vehicles to pay for the roads. Today, we pay tax on fuel but there's no "road tax" on electricity (yet).

Mike

To elaborate on Mikes comment: Some have suggested that electric cars hooked up for charging could provide needed electricity back to the grid in times of extreme load. Say you commute 20 miles to work every day and you have a car with 200 mile range. That's 160 miles of range you might not need today. You drive to work and hook up your car in the middle of August on the hottest day of the year. The (very smart) grid is stressed for power and draws down your battery to make up a temporary shortfall.

There are all sorts of devilish details to the idea. Chief among them is the requirement that we anticipate our transportation needs. But it's interesting. Just think of the unused energy in all those batteries.

[Roger Feeley]

The road is a rather winding road in the hills. From the direction behind me when walking to my mailbox, there wouldn't be much headlight observation before the car was right on me.

My trip to the mailbox during the dark days of winter has my paying more attention when out on the road. Though now my worries are also valid in the summer when there is no need for headlights, the car is still very quiet.

jtk

The folks with sight impairments are already thinking about the electric future. I'm guessing that it will get worse before it gets better. Imagine Times Square with one or two silent electrics. Some have even suggested that electric cars electronically simulate car noises so that the blind folks can hear them coming. I would imagine that when we get to a time where all vehicles are electric, the overall quiet will make it better.

[roger wiegand]

I'd point out that there are millions of hearing impaired people who can't hear the gasoline powered cars we have now. They seem to have figured out how to cope.

[Brian Henderson]

I'm honestly not going to get an electric vehicle until it can do everything a gas powered vehicle can do as well or better than a gas powered vehicle can do it, at a comparable cost. If they are supposed to be a replacement technology, they need to outperform what they are replacing and currently, they do not. Until I can pull into a charging station and recharge at the same speed as I can currently fill up my tank with gas, forget it. I don't have time to sit there for 30-60 minutes while my batteries charge. I've got 10 minutes. And I think people are vastly underestimating how many charging stations that they'll need, given the prolonged charging time. The gas station I use is always busy, there are rarely empty pumps when you pull up. So, even if they get charging down to 30 minutes from empty to full, that's 3x as many chargers that they will need to service the same number of people.

[Doug Garson]

I'm honestly not going to get an electric vehicle until it can do everything a gas powered vehicle can do as well or better than a gas powered vehicle can do it, at a comparable cost. If they are supposed to be a replacement technology, they need to outperform what they are replacing and currently, they do not. Until I can pull into a charging station and recharge at the same speed as I can currently fill up my tank with gas, forget it. I don't have time to sit there for 30-60 minutes while my batteries charge. I've got 10 minutes. And I think people are vastly underestimating how many charging stations that they'll need, given the prolonged charging time. The gas station I use is always busy, there are rarely empty pumps when you pull up. So, even if they get charging down to 30 minutes from empty to full, that's 3x as many chargers that they will need to service the same number of people.
I think you are overlooking a few facts. As someone pointed out earlier, the majority of cars on the road today travel a relatively short distance per day much less than the range of most electric cars. Thus they could do the majority of their recharging overnight at home which means no waiting at a gas station and consuming electricity when demand is low, win win. For those who regularly travel long distances then a hybrid would be the solution. You are forgetting that electric cars are a solution to a serious problem.

[Pat Barry]

Somebody needs to calculate the cost benefit function for electricity cost per charge and fule range (put it in terms of cost per mile) and compare that with equivalent cost per mile for gasoline. There is a point at which the costs would be equivalent --- just for the sake of discussion, don't include time value such as time to refill a gas tank vs wait for a battery charge. Also, don't include cost of the vehicle. Just day to day operating costs. Don't include maintenance either ( ie, cost of replacement batteries). Anyone have hard data such as this?

[Nicholas Lawrence]

Even if it made financial sense and would work there are too many questions for me. Look at what happened with biofuel subsidies. Article in the NYT a couple of weeks ago about the massive unintended results of that push. Saw another article about the problems recycling solar panels. Not impossible, but apparently harder than you would think for a green technology, and we now have the things piling up.

What unintended consequences of battery production will we be looking at in 10 years time that we cannot see now?

ETA: Google NYT and Palm Oil for the article on the biofuels disaster.

[Alan Rutherford]

Somebody needs to calculate the cost benefit function for electricity cost per charge and fule range (put it in terms of cost per mile) and compare that with equivalent cost per mile for gasoline. There is a point at which the costs would be equivalent --- just for the sake of discussion, don't include time value such as time to refill a gas tank vs wait for a battery charge. Also, don't include cost of the vehicle. Just day to day operating costs. Don't include maintenance either ( ie, cost of replacement batteries). Anyone have hard data such as this? In my earlier post (https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?269833-Electric-cars&p=2872030#post2872030) I mentioned that Consumer Reports a few years ago said some model of Tesla cost $.04/mile to operate at whatever cost per KWH they used. That was also what we spent on gas for our Prius. It's probably $.05/mile for gas now. So equivalent cost/mile around here comes at 45-50 mpg if gas is $2.70/gallon and somebody pays for the electricity.

[Mike Henderson]

Somebody needs to calculate the cost benefit function for electricity cost per charge and fule range (put it in terms of cost per mile) and compare that with equivalent cost per mile for gasoline. There is a point at which the costs would be equivalent --- just for the sake of discussion, don't include time value such as time to refill a gas tank vs wait for a battery charge. Also, don't include cost of the vehicle. Just day to day operating costs. Don't include maintenance either ( ie, cost of replacement batteries). Anyone have hard data such as this?

The Tesla Model 3 is rated at 26 KWh per 100 miles. If electricity cost $0.15 per KWh, that's 3.9 cents per mile. If it's $0.20 per KWh, it 5.2 cents per mile.

If you have a gasoline car that gets 40 miles per gallon and gas cost $3.00 per gallon, the cost per mile is 7.5 cents per mile. If gas is $2.50 per gallon, the cost per mile is 6.3 cents per mile.
If you get 30 MPG and gas is $3.00 per gallon, the cost per mile is 10 cents per mile. If gas is $2.50 per gallon, the cost per mile is 8.3 cents per mile.

Mike

[Lee DeRaud]

On a partially related note, I wonder how much range anxiety existed in the early days of the automobile before gas and service stations became abundant?I suspect, in the early days, "range anxiety" was more of the form, "How far can we go before something breaks?"

I'm old enough and have been poor enough to have owned cars for which the answer to that question was the same order of magnitude as miles-per-tank. YMMV, so to speak.

[Art Mann]

Did you read the patently absurd assumptions that went into the conclusion reached by that ridiculous report. You really ought to look at all the facts before you swallow that bait, hook line and sinker.


An interesting comment, given the timing. Did you miss the news of the report (https://www.globalchange.gov/nca4) indicating that immediate action is needed to prevent catastrophic loss of life and massive reduction in GDP due to pollution from burning fossil fuels? It's very short-sighted to say, "Well when I was a kid, we saw soot everywhere, but now I don't see that, so pollution must be gone"

[Yathin Krishnappa]

Did you read the patently absurd assumptions that went into the conclusion reached by that ridiculous report. You really ought to look at all the facts before you swallow that bait, hook line and sinker.

Could you please enlighten us? Also, throwing in some data would be useful, or at least pointing out the biases in their data without using fancy adjectives to deride the report?

In the end, we are all on the same boat: some have given up, some think we can do something and some think everything is just fine. Unfortunately, only one group can be right and we'll all be long gone before we know who was right. That is to say, we, who believe in that report, may also be wrong.

However, for now, I think I'll believe the scientists who have compiled that report and have put in countless hours of work and expertise into it, and have solid, publicly available and verifiable data to back up their claims.

[Dan Friedrichs]

Did you read the patently absurd assumptions that went into the conclusion reached by that ridiculous report. You really ought to look at all the facts before you swallow that bait, hook line and sinker.

I've never understood why lay people think they are qualified to "have an opinion" on climate science.

You wouldn't walk into an operating room and try to correct a surgeon's technique.

You wouldn't walk into an air traffic control tower and try to correct instructions being given to pilots.

Unless you're an experienced scientist, expertly knowledgeable in that area, why do you think your opinions on climate change should be considered by others?

[Art Mann]

It would take a long time to gather all the information that has come to light since the report was released but a few things stick out in my mind. The report assumes that the temperature rise over the time period in question will be 15 degrees F. That number is higher than the worst case scenario published by the IPCC. The number is based on predictions from computer models that have already been proven to be spectacularly wrong on previous occasions. Another assumption is that coal consumption will resume its upward use trajectory. In reality, natural gas, which releases much less carbon into the atmosphere, is rapidly taking the place of coal for economic rather than ecological reasons. The report also implies that current weather conditions are out of the normal and will continue to get worse, which will profoundly affect the economy. The reality is that current weather conditions are not very different from previous centuries and have not been getting any worse so far. All this information is available on line and in most cases it comes directly from government sources. If you dig enough, most of the report turns out to be guesses derived from a near impossible combination of worst case scenarios. It is not difficult to understand and does not require the knowledge of experts as Dan assumes. Sometimes you just have to look at the obvious.


Could you please enlighten us? Also, throwing in some data would be useful, or at least pointing out the biases in their data without using fancy adjectives to deride the report?

In the end, we are all on the same boat: some have given up, some think we can do something and some think everything is just fine. Unfortunately, only one group can be right and we'll all be long gone before we know who was right. That is to say, we, who believe in that report, may also be wrong.

However, for now, I think I'll believe the scientists who have compiled that report and have put in countless hours of work and expertise into it, and have solid, publicly available and verifiable data to back up their claims.

[Doug Garson]

OK, does the report assume a 15 F temperature rise or does it predict a 15 F rise based on computer modelling? Those are not the same thing. Mind providing a link or reference to what chapter and page of the report answers this? Where does the report say coal consumption will increase? Here's a direct quote from the report Chapter 4 page 71.
"At the same time, the nature of the energysystem itself is changing. Low carbon-emittingnatural gas generation has displaced coalgeneration due to the rising production oflow-cost, unconventional natural gas, in partsupported by federal investment in researchand development. In the last 10 years, the shareof generation from natural gas increased from20% to over 30%, while coal has declined fromnearly 50% to around 30%. Over this sametime, generation from wind and solar has grownfrom less than 1% to over 5% due to a combinationof technological progress, dramatic costreductions, and federal and state policies"

What government data are referring to that supports your case? Here's some government data from NOAA.

"Based on the NOAA dataset (note that other datasets produce different rankings[21] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instrumental_temperature_record#cite_note-21)), the following table lists the global combined land and ocean annually averaged temperature rank and anomaly for each of the 10 warmest years on record.[22] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instrumental_temperature_record#cite_note-NOAA2015-22)


Rank
Year
Anomaly °C
Anomaly °F


1
2016
0.94
1.69


2
2015
0.90
1.62


3
2017
0.84
1.51


4
2014
0.74
1.33


5
2010
0.70
1.26


6
2013
0.66
1.19


7
2005
0.65
1.17


8
2009
0.64
1.15


9
1998
0.63
1.13


10
2012
0.62
1.12


Although the NCDC (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Climatic_Data_Center) temperature record begins in 1880, reconstructions of earlier temperatures (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temperature_record#Proxies:_tree_rings,_ice_cores: _the_last_2000_years) based on climate proxies (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proxy_(climate)), suggest these years may be the warmest for several centuries to millennia, or longer."

[Matt Mattingley]

The Tesla Model 3 is rated at 26 KWh per 100 miles. If electricity cost $0.15 per KWh, that's 3.9 cents per mile. If it's $0.20 per KWh, it 5.2 cents per mile.

If you have a gasoline car that gets 40 miles per gallon and gas cost $3.00 per gallon, the cost per mile is 7.5 cents per mile. If gas is $2.50 per gallon, the cost per mile is 6.3 cents per mile.
If you get 30 MPG and gas is $3.00 per gallon, the cost per mile is 10 cents per mile. If gas is $2.50 per gallon, the cost per mile is 8.3 cents per mile.

Mike maybe you can do these numbers backwards? What if I pay $0.09 kilowatt, $.16 per kilowatt, $.19 per kilowatt, and gasoline on a good day is $1.10/L and diesel is $1.36/L

You’re really confusing me by the kilowatt hour which is metric and then converting and then back converting to Imperil.

Fuel efficiency verses km... I may have more questions about thrust load efficiency.

[Matt Mattingley]

I've never understood why lay people think they are qualified to "have an opinion" on climate science.

You wouldn't walk into an operating room and try to correct a surgeon's technique.

You wouldn't walk into an air traffic control tower and try to correct instructions being given to pilots.

Unless you're an experienced scientist, expertly knowledgeable in that area, why do you think your opinions on climate change should be considered by others?
Same holds true, why would one consider yourself a Vfd expert? We’re all here to try to help, via experiences. I’ve bumped heads with you on programming. I usually walk away...

[Pat Barry]

We have no reason not to believe the Presidents climate change report. The facts are the facts and the models are based on real data. It takes a pretty blind or arrogant person to not see the future depicted as more bleak.

[Nicholas Lawrence]

I've never understood why lay people think they are qualified to "have an opinion" on climate science.

You wouldn't walk into an operating room and try to correct a surgeon's technique.

You wouldn't walk into an air traffic control tower and try to correct instructions being given to pilots.

Unless you're an experienced scientist, expertly knowledgeable in that area, why do you think your opinions on climate change should be considered by others?

Google “the replication crisis” and “Brian Wansink” if you wonder why lay people might not all believe they should blindly accept the peer-reviewed settled science. And then read that NYT article I mentioned earlier and think about the potential unintended consequences of completely changing how several billion people move about, feed themselves, and keep warm.

If the smart people can adopt a biofuels policy that not only is wasteful and corrupt, but also makes the problem they are trying to solve worse, why do you think everyone else should agree to sign over control of the economy to “experienced scientists, expertly knowledgeable in that area” without asking any questions?

This is America. We are supposed to have fellow citizens who think for themselves. If you want to go in for spine surgery without asking any questions that is your right. If others want to get ask about technique, experience, and alternatives, and then go get a second opinion, that is their right.

[roger wiegand]

A Tesla Model S (the large sedan) gets about 3 mi per kWh of electricity, so depending on your cost of electricity somewhere between 2 and 8 cents a mile. Your mileage may vary (literally) depending on how you drive. Smaller cars of course do better.

A similar size Mercedes with a gasoline engine costs about 20 cents a mile for gas.

[Keith Outten]

Beat me if you like but I believe Hydrogen is the fuel of the future. Our planet is 80% water so the source is inexhaustible and we can extract hydrogen from water via solar technology. There will be zero pollution and no nasty chemicals in our local recycling centers. Water is the only effluent from burning hydrogen gas. We already have the technology to convert to hydrogen gas, the only mountain to cross is our own Federal Government because it will never be able to control hydrogen the way they do every other source of fuel.

[Jim Becker]

The promise of hydrogen is very supportive of EV, Keith. With a ready supply of hydrogen, fuel cells can power those electric motors and reduce the dependence on large batteries. That's win-win. Unfortunately, we'll have to be patient on that because we lag on the solar side which as you state is the most likely best future scenario for hydrogen production. Chickens and Eggs, oh my!!

[Pat Barry]

The promise of hydrogen is very supportive of EV, Keith. With a ready supply of hydrogen, fuel cells can power those electric motors and reduce the dependence on large batteries. That's win-win. Unfortunately, we'll have to be patient on that because we lag on the solar side which as you state is the most likely best future scenario for hydrogen production. Chickens and Eggs, oh my!!
No doubt, hydrogen safety issues need to be figured out and fail safe before hydrogen will ever be consumer ready.

[Malcolm McLeod]

... the news of the report (https://www.globalchange.gov/nca4) indicating that immediate action is needed to prevent catastrophic loss of life and massive reduction in GDP ...

I have been following the above for a long time. A bit after the first pronouncements by (IIRC) the Union of Concerned Scientists, ASME released a peer-reviewed analysis of the engineering required by the scientist's CO2 predictions. I can't find a link to it anymore, but it was comprehensive look at global energy impact, and bottomline, I recall something about ~1/3 of the human population starving to death if we adopted the UCS plan. The above linked report is the 3rd 'change-in-a-decade-or-else' prediction that I know of. The first 2 are at least 15-20 yrs past our 'expiration date'. So some of the possible iterations: the first was right, and we are already past the point of no return (drat!); the first 2 were wrong, but this latest is right (repent or else!); or, maybe none are right. Anybody look at the actual data? Or do we just accept the analysis at face value? Anybody look at the potential bias of the climate seers? Anybody thought about the actual cost-benefit ratio of the Paris accord? ...I think the benefit is 0.1degC reduction in gain, so what cost are you willing to bear for that?? We don't have to be scientists, its just some basic math. YMMV ;)

We have a short societal memory. One thing we shouldn't forget is that humans have been remarkably adept at meeting our energy needs throughout our history (something on the order of 60-70 millennia). I bet that won't change in the future. Most of that history we got by with a camp fire. Now we need Teslas and PV arrays on the roof. Based on rate of change in technology, I doubt we've even seen the technology our grand-demons will use. And in case anyone thinks they have all the answers, Giggle the web for 'NF3' (nitrogen trifluoride) emissions - - rising at 11% per year (if you believe the scientist's reports) and mostly from PV manufacturing.

As for the electric cars, this is a lot like the self-driving cars thread - lots of opinions and virtually none in the middle! ....Popcorn, anyone? IMHO, great concept with lots of bugs to work thru - battery life/cost/chemistry; recharging/exchange options and infrastructure; and of course, the subsidies (buy what you want, but please don't ask me to foot part of the bill). Love the torque!!:cool:

Wanna eliminate hydrocarbon chemistry...? Make sure you know what its used in: fuels, fertilizer, packaging, clothing, plastics, etc, etc. Careful what you wish for.

[Brian Henderson]

I think you are overlooking a few facts. As someone pointed out earlier, the majority of cars on the road today travel a relatively short distance per day much less than the range of most electric cars. Thus they could do the majority of their recharging overnight at home which means no waiting at a gas station and consuming electricity when demand is low, win win. For those who regularly travel long distances then a hybrid would be the solution. You are forgetting that electric cars are a solution to a serious problem.

I don't care about the majority of cars, I care about me. Currently, if I want to take off on a 1000 mile road trip, I can. I know I will find plenty of gas stations along the way where I can refuel in 10 minutes or less. I can't do that with electric, therefore electric isn't for me. It might be for other people but it isn't for me. I can think of plenty of days at work where I'll be on the road all day, going long distances, sometimes to other states, where I can probably do more than 400 miles in a day and I don't have time to sit around and wait to recharge. I have places to be. How is this going to work for long-haul truck drivers? They don't have time to sit around and wait either. It seems people want us to accept less efficiency because they want to solve a problem. Sorry. Try again.

[Ken Combs]

I would really like to see a 'total cost of ownership' comparison over 1-10 years for a few examples of both ICE and selected 'electric', battery, hybrid etc.

that should include cost of vehicle, gas, electric costs, home charging installation, service, battery replacement, oil changes etc. As stated total cost of ownership, not selected points, but the whole package.

I think there will be a lot of surprises for some people when considering upgrading to electric. Installation of a 240v charging station by a pro can really eat into the projected savings for instance.

Adding PV panels for that purpose sounds great, until you price package, controls, panels, installation etc.

[Jim Becker]

No doubt, hydrogen safety issues need to be figured out and fail safe before hydrogen will ever be consumer ready.

Yes, that's true, but I don't think it's insurmountable considering that we already have LNG powered vehicles on the road today.

[Mike Henderson]

Beat me if you like but I believe Hydrogen is the fuel of the future. Our planet is 80% water so the source is inexhaustible and we can extract hydrogen from water via solar technology. There will be zero pollution and no nasty chemicals in our local recycling centers. Water is the only effluent from burning hydrogen gas. We already have the technology to convert to hydrogen gas, the only mountain to cross is our own Federal Government because it will never be able to control hydrogen the way they do every other source of fuel.

One problem of hydrogen is efficiency of conversions. Let me talk about that.

Let's start with 100 units of electric power, produced by some renewable means (solar, wind, etc.) and use that to do electrolysis of water. The energy contained in the hydrogen you get from that electrolysis is about 70% of the input energy, so now you have 70 units of energy.

Then, you get to one of the major problems - how to transport the hydrogen. You either have to have a way of producing hydrogen close to where it's going to be consumed or you have to compress it and transport it. Pipeline is the cheapest but there not much hydrogen pipeline. Compressing it and transporting it by truck is expensive. Hydrogen has the lowest amount of energy per volume of fuels. But let's be generous and assume that it takes 10% of the energy to compress and transport it. That gets us to 67.5 units of energy.

Then, the hydrogen is put into a fuel cell which is about 60% efficient, and that gets us 40.5 units of energy to go into the motors on the car. The motors are about 90% so we get to use about 34.5% of the energy we started with.

Looking at an electric battery car, let's start with the same 100 units of electric power, produced from renewal sources.
Transporting that energy to the charging station uses about 5% of the energy, which gets us to 95 units of energy.

A battery is about 90% efficient so the power to the electric motors is 85.5 units of energy.
The motors are about 90% efficient so the power we get from that 100 original units of energy is about 77 units.

Today, most of the hydrogen available is produced from fossil fuel.

While conversion efficiency is not everything, it will affect energy cost for powering your car (cents per mile).

Mike

[Dan Friedrichs]

I don't care about the majority of cars, I care about me. Currently, if I want to take off on a 1000 mile road trip, I can. I know I will find plenty of gas stations along the way where I can refuel in 10 minutes or less.

I think it's worth considering how the ubiquity of gas stations may change if the majority of cars no longer require gas. You say you aren't concerned about the "majority of cars", but the gas-distribution infrastructure isn't built for *you* - it's built for the majority of cars.

Re: "Solving a problem". I don't necessarily care about electric cars "solving" climate change (although that is very important) - I see them as something I want because they meet my transportation needs better than gas cars.

For most people, electric cars offer incredible advantages:

No inconvenience of stopping for gas - plug in at your garage/office
Reduced operating costs (arguable, but promising)
Radically reduced maintenance: no oil changes, transmission fluid changes, etc
Improved performance (re: acceleration, braking)
Improved safety (generally, due to low-center-of-gravity from heavy, low batteries)


And aside from niche uses (pulling trailers), the only real down-side is availability/convenience of charging. And for the majority of people who live in urban areas - or don't travel long distances by car - that's a non-issue.

[Marvin Hasenak]

The technology that is used in the electric vehicle industry is moving too fast to predict what could happen in the next year. Today the electric vehicles are at the horse and buggy stage of the automobile era, it is just the beginning. Batteries are improving, as is the efficiency of the motors. What could they be by the end of next year?

[Roger Feeley]

Electric vehicles are coming. It will take time to develop the infrastructure, but it will happen.
In the early days of gasoline powered vehicles, trips revolved around the location of "Filling Stations". As the demand for these increased, the need was met. The same will happen with the electric cars. Right now they are suited to the more urban environment, but will expand.
Renewable energies will certainly progress also, but this thread was about cars.

Art Mann
"As far as the environment goes, it is in better shape now than it has been in the last 50 years I have been paying attention to it."

Yathin Krishnappa
"Are you trying to troll or do you really believe that?"

I do not believe that Art is "trolling". I also agree with Art. I am 59 years old and I can tell you that we are much better off today, than in 1978.
The US has increased it's population by 150 million people since 1968, and a 125million since 1978. The time frame between 1968 and 1978 was probably the beginning of the environmental awareness in the country. Also the beginning of some of the government agencies that regulate environmental cleanliness.
For having an increase in 150 million people over the past 50 years, we are a lot better off environmentally than where we were in 1978. Had we not had the awareness that began in the late 60's, going outside today would be just awful.
This isn't trolling, this is the experience of living through all of these changes.

I work in a facility that puts 2200 Megawatts to the grid with zero carbon pollution, in any weather condition. Yet we are not the future. People want to believe in "free energy", such as solar panels, but it doesn't exist. Energy is not free, there is always a price.

I agree that we are trying harder but not that the environment is in better shape. That aside, I once heard a presentation by some former cabinet secretary and he made a truly amazing statement which I will try to paraphrase, "A car today, driving at highway speed, produces less pollution than a pre-1979 car parked with the engine off." I was, like, what??? But around 1979, they pressurized the gas tanks and added stuff to the gas to keep it from evaporating so much. So, yeah, I guess that's about right.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that the movement chose the wrong poster child. True, the earth is heating up and true, the cause is us. But that's all a little squishy. What isn't squishy is that the oceans absorb more CO2 than the atmosphere does and they are becoming more acid. The change in pH is stressing the corals, plankton and krill and may well disrupt the ocean food chain. There is absolutely no question that the oceans are changing and that the change is caused by fossil fuel. There is also no question that if we cure the oceans, we cure the atmosphere.

[Doug Garson]

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that the movement chose the wrong poster child. True, the earth is heating up and true, the cause is us. But that's all a little squishy. What isn't squishy is that the oceans absorb more CO2 than the atmosphere does and they are becoming more acid. The change in pH is stressing the corals, plankton and krill and may well disrupt the ocean food chain. There is absolutely no question that the oceans are changing and that the change is caused by fossil fuel. There is also no question that if we cure the oceans, we cure the atmosphere.

Anyone who has snorkeled in the same area 20 or 30 years ago and again in the last 10 years can't help but see that our oceans are in trouble.

[Edwin Santos]

I don't care about the majority of cars, I care about me. Currently, if I want to take off on a 1000 mile road trip, I can. I know I will find plenty of gas stations along the way where I can refuel in 10 minutes or less. I can't do that with electric, therefore electric isn't for me. It might be for other people but it isn't for me. I can think of plenty of days at work where I'll be on the road all day, going long distances, sometimes to other states, where I can probably do more than 400 miles in a day and I don't have time to sit around and wait to recharge. I have places to be. How is this going to work for long-haul truck drivers? They don't have time to sit around and wait either. It seems people want us to accept less efficiency because they want to solve a problem. Sorry. Try again.

You've described yourself as the classic late adopter and there's nothing wrong with it at all. In fact, you're in good company because the majority of people are late adopters with a stronger fixation on what they might lose by adopting technology as compared to what they might gain in benefits.

The latest of the late adopters end up ultimately getting forced along the curve when (in this case) charging will become faster and more accessible, and traditional gas stations will start to die off and become less available due to declining demand.
At that point the cost of holding on to the old days becomes prohibitive and considerably more inconvenient and the benefits of change will be too compelling. I'm surprised that there would be any debate that this is the way it's moving, but I can understand that the big question is how long will it take?

[Matt Mattingley]

Electricity can be super cheap. It’s all around us naturally. But… Infrastructure is already there. Almost everybody has a lithium ion battery impact screw gun. why? Why… They are light, portable and they will do 100 holes before recharging requirements and they are cheap. I can pop the battery out, plug-in a new one, and as I am charging, I’m off to the races.

A car moving 1-3 occupants around in short distances (under 200 miles) before recharging would be a great little commuting vehicle. But…would suck for long trips. There is no 600 pound battery swap out stations.

Pound for pound you can’t beat diesel or gasoline on the kw scale. You’ll never get a transport truck weighing 100,000 pounds travelling 10 hours before refill powered by batteries . You’ll never get an airplane flying 16 hours without a refill powered by batteries.

Currently batteries waigh about 2-4+++ times the same power output of fuel. This is why charging a battery usually cost more to charge. Fuel is used natural gas to create electricity. This infrastructure gets paid for in one way or another.

I work at a school (part time) they have three free charging stations of the 800 spots as a government incentive. The hospital I go to has 10 free charging stations 2000 spots is a government incentive. Do you think these facilities will keep getting funding if it is 25% free recharging instead of .005%

[Doug Garson]

You’ll never get a transport truck weighing 100,000 pounds travelling 10 hours before refill powered by batteries .

Never is a long time. " Tesla's Elon Musk is promising a truck that can go 800 km at highway speeds and rip to nearly 100 km/h in 20 seconds with a trailer loaded with more than 36,000 kg of cargo." In addition to Tesla, Volvo, Mercedes Benz, Cummins, Volkswagen and several others are all developing electric trucks. I'll bet they would all disagree with you. It only took 4 decades for Diesel locomotives to replace coal fired steam locomotives, what makes you think electric can't replace Diesel in a similar (probably shorter) period of time. Think of all the things in our lifetimes (I'm 69) that are already redundant. VCR's, Blu ray, CD's, phone booths, 8 tracks, cassette decks. CRT TV's, film cameras ................. and none of them were causing irreparable damage to our planet. And you think Diesel trucks will never be replaced? I think the only question is by what and when or is your workshop still powered by water power?

[Matt Mattingley]

is your workshop still powered by water power?
Water... do you mean hyro electric??? YES. And Nuclear... water moves almost anything in its way. Why not harness it? Quebec turns water in to electrical while you sleep. If you don’t use it, they just dump the power dams.

[Dan Friedrichs]

Pound for pound you can’t beat diesel or gasoline on the kw scale.

You're right, but consider the entire system, as well. Conversion of electrical energy into motion is MUCH more efficient than converting gas into motion, so less "pounds" of energy are needed. And once you consider removing the transmission, radiator, muffler, exhaust system, oil pump/pan/cooler, etc, we're approaching having electric cars with "range per pound" equivalent to ICE.

[Brian Henderson]

I think it's worth considering how the ubiquity of gas stations may change if the majority of cars no longer require gas. You say you aren't concerned about the "majority of cars", but the gas-distribution infrastructure isn't built for *you* - it's built for the majority of cars.

I don't think most people are switching any time soon. Electric vehicles are also significantly more expensive than gas vehicles at the moment and 50% of Americans still live outside of urban centers. Advocates imagine that there will be this fundamental change in the support structure required for a mass change to electric that I just don't see happening any time soon. Everyone will have to have 240V installed at their homes or they can't charge. Employers will have to go to the expense of installing charging at the place of business for the employees, at their own expense. If a company has 100 employees driving 100 cars, that's 100 charging stations they will have to install and maintain at their own expense so their employees can get to and from work. Who pays for that? Certainly not the companies who won't be able to afford it. And again, for half of Americans who live outside of urban centers, we do have to drive a long way to get anywhere. Heck, I used to drive almost 300 miles a day to go to work and I wasn't going that far. I know of a lot of people who drive more. This is a much bigger problem than a lot of people want to pretend it is.

[Brian Henderson]

I work at a school (part time) they have three free charging stations of the 800 spots as a government incentive. The hospital I go to has 10 free charging stations 2000 spots is a government incentive. Do you think these facilities will keep getting funding if it is 25% free recharging instead of .005%

Where I used to live, a couple of local stores had electric charging stations in their parking lots and they were never used. Ever. I never once saw any vehicles plugged into them even though there were clearly electric vehicles around. I'm sure they were installed to get a tax break, but most stores don't do it because it's a waste of time and space.

It really seems to me that there are a lot of people who like the idea of electric vehicles and are desperately trying to rationalize why people ought to go with it, but refuse to recognize that there are massive problems with it and outside of densely packed urban areas, the whole idea is a non-starter.

[Pat Barry]

I don't think most people are switching any time soon. Electric vehicles are also significantly more expensive than gas vehicles at the moment and 50% of Americans still live outside of urban centers. Advocates imagine that there will be this fundamental change in the support structure required for a mass change to electric that I just don't see happening any time soon. Everyone will have to have 240V installed at their homes or they can't charge. Employers will have to go to the expense of installing charging at the place of business for the employees, at their own expense. If a company has 100 employees driving 100 cars, that's 100 charging stations they will have to install and maintain at their own expense so their employees can get to and from work. Who pays for that? Certainly not the companies who won't be able to afford it. And again, for half of Americans who live outside of urban centers, we do have to drive a long way to get anywhere. Heck, I used to drive almost 300 miles a day to go to work and I wasn't going that far. I know of a lot of people who drive more. This is a much bigger problem than a lot of people want to pretend it is.
I don't understand the basis for your 240v comment. Are you thinking we would need 3 phase power to charge a battery? Wrong. Everyone in America thats on the grid already has 220v power. That is plenty. You can run an entire home off that, no doubt it will charge a battery.

[Yathin Krishnappa]

It really seems to me that there are a lot of people who like the idea of electric vehicles and are desperately trying to rationalize why people ought to go with it, but refuse to recognize that there are massive problems with it and outside of densely packed urban areas, the whole idea is a non-starter.

Perhaps, it is because some of us think we need to to make some sacrifices to see if this is electric car thing is viable? See this article in NYT (https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/05/climate/greenhouse-gas-emissions-2018.html) today to see the crazy numbers on greenhouse gas emissions.

When Horatio Nelson Jackson did his cross-country trip, there were no gas stations -- or even highways for that matter. However, his trip proved that one day it would be possible to do cross-country automobile trips. Electric cars are still somewhat in that stage even though there were electric cars over a hundred years ago (like Beardsley in 1913).

I think everyone knows that electric cars today are not a drop-in replacement and there are a LOT of issues starting from affordability and going all the way to practicality. I can fully understand if people need gas cars for their long commutes or work like farmers, truckers, business owners. What I don't understand is people with urban desk jobs buying gas guzzlers to get from home to work and use it one day a year to haul a boat or something like that. I'm just looking at the parking lot outside my window and see that nearly two-thirds are pick-ups or SUVs when almost all of them can be at least a smaller commuter car. There are more environmentally friendly ways to commute than electric cars (like public transit or living close to work), but more guinea pigs testing electric cars will only mean more data and, hopefully, a better/cleaner transportation solution for us all.

[Yathin Krishnappa]

I don't understand the basis for your 240v comment. Are you thinking we would need 3 phase power to charge a battery? Wrong. Everyone in America thats on the grid already has 220v power. That is plenty. You can run an entire home off that, no doubt it will charge a battery.

Just to add to what Pat said, the smaller electric cars like the i3 and Leaf can perfectly live with standard 120v outlets (I've spent many years with those without the need for 240v). The bigger cars like Teslas need 240v to be practical, otherwise it could take days to charge the car (I've tried!). Also, it's not too expensive to get a 240v outlet -- especially if someone already has washer-driers in their house.

[Lee DeRaud]

Heck, I used to drive almost 300 miles a day to go to work and I wasn't going that far. I know of a lot of people who drive more.I'm quite familiar with the concepts of urban sprawl and long commutes, but I suspect your definitions of "not that far" and "lots of people" are non-standard.

[Doug Garson]

Water... do you mean hyro electric??? YES. And Nuclear... water moves almost anything in its way. Why not harness it? Quebec turns water in to electrical while you sleep. If you don’t use it, they just dump the power dams.
Agreed, in fact 60% of electricity in Canada is from Hydro.

[Nicholas Lawrence]

I'm quite familiar with the concepts of urban sprawl and long commutes, but I suspect your definitions of "not that far" and "lots of people" are non-standard.

When I lived in California I was astonished how many people commuted over 100 miles. In the DC area it is not that unusual to see folks commuting from WV to work in DC.

From what I can tell most of those with such long commutes are not wealthy. They live “out” where they can afford a home, and commute “in” for the better wages. I suspect a lot of commuting could be reduced by more reasonable (i.e. less restrictive) land use policies, but in this area as in others two environmental priorities can be in conflict.

We see the same thing with the power industry. The most viable alternative to fossil fuels for electricity generation is nuclear power but the only thing environmental groups hate more than fossil fuels is nuclear power.

[Zachary Hoyt]

I think electric cars are an interesting idea, but we don't buy a car till it's 8-10 years old, so we're behind the technological curve. I think a lot of energy could be saved if more of us could decide where we want or need to be, and then go and stay there for a while before we go somewhere else.
Zach

[Rick Potter]

Volkswagen just announced it is designing what they say is it's LAST internal combustion engine, to be used starting 2026. European and Chinese laws are pretty much driving the change.

PS: As I mentioned before, my 2013 (read old tech) C-Max Ford plug in will only go 20 miles on electric, but then switches to gas automatically, and will go another 400 at 37 MPG. I have used it on 2,000 mile trips. No big deal, but the new plug in's are much better.

This means that although most of my driving is local, I can go anywhere with no problem. Consequently about 80% of my wife's car's 25,000 miles have been on electric and plugged in only at home. My '14 model has the same mileage, and has only been plugged in away from home when we stayed at a hotel once that had free charging.

PPS: News flash. The Chinese company that bought out Nissan's battery making subsidiary just announced they think they can reduce the price of batteries within a year or so (2020), to where the cost will be LESS than a ICE motor setup.

This according to "Green Car Reports".

[Lee DeRaud]

When I lived in California I was astonished how many people commuted over 100 miles. In the DC area it is not that unusual to see folks commuting from WV to work in DC.Yes, but the post I was responding to said "300 miles", unclear whether that (or yours) meant each way or round trip. I'm in OC: the people with "long commutes" here are typically coming from Lancaster/Palmdale (~85 miles) or the Inland Empire area (~50 miles). As for your DC example, commutes from WV would certainly be note-worthy (as in 4-5 hours each way to NVA, probably an hour more to central DC), but "not that unusual"? Methinks not, as there are many areas just as cheap in a more reasonable 75-mile radius of DC.
The most viable alternative to fossil fuels for electricity generation is nuclear power but the only thing environmental groups hate more than fossil fuels is nuclear power.I've often wondered if "solar" power would be quite as popular if it were referred to by its more technically-correct name: "thermonuclear".

[Brian Henderson]

I'm quite familiar with the concepts of urban sprawl and long commutes, but I suspect your definitions of "not that far" and "lots of people" are non-standard.

Pretty much everything where I am is bedroom communities. Lots of people live here, most people don't work here. They work on the other side of a mountain because that's where the jobs are.

[Roger Feeley]

Yes, but the post I was responding to said "300 miles", unclear whether that (or yours) meant each way or round trip. I'm in OC: the people with "long commutes" here are typically coming from Lancaster/Palmdale (~85 miles) or the Inland Empire area (~50 miles). As for your DC example, commutes from WV would certainly be note-worthy (as in 4-5 hours each way to NVA, probably an hour more to central DC), but "not that unusual"? Methinks not, as there are many areas just as cheap in a more reasonable 75-mile radius of DC.I've often wondered if "solar" power would be quite as popular if it were referred to by its more technically-correct name: "thermonuclear".

I live in Falls Church, VA (Inside the DC Beltway). When I moved here, I was amazed at how many people commute in from West Virginia. The guy that did our landscaping drives in from WV every day. I don't understand the economics. But he loves it. He was born in Maryland and moved to WV to be close to nature. They have 30 acres and a river.

[Nicholas Lawrence]

"not that unusual"? Methinks not

Think whatever you want. Lots of people live in a bubble.

Martinsburg is no further from DC than Hagerstown, and when I worked in Crystal City probably half the building (all white collar government jobs) commuted from either Hagerstown or Frederick.

The first guy I met commuting from WV to DC was an electrician. He and his girlfriend both came in together. They told me one would drive in while the other slept in the car, and they would reverse it on the way back. You might think they could find a job somewhere else, or a house somewhere else, but I think if they had one of those options they would not have been doing what they were doing.

[Lee DeRaud]

Martinsburg is no further from DC than Hagerstown, and when I worked in Crystal City probably half the building (all white collar government jobs) commuted from either Hagerstown or Frederick.You are correct: both of them are very nearly within the 75-mile radius I mentioned, half of the 150-mile distance I originally commented on. (Frederick is significantly closer at 45 miles.)

So, getting back on topic, what do you consider a "long commute", and will a Tesla/Bolt/whatever handle it? Hint: the answer is 'yes' for the places you've mentioned. A first-gen Leaf won't, but it will handle one-way...I assume the number of charging stations in Crystal City has increased greatly since I was there last.

[Lee DeRaud]

Pretty much everything where I am is bedroom communities. Lots of people live here, most people don't work here. They work on the other side of a mountain because that's where the jobs are.This conversation might be a bit more productive if you would give us a clue where you are.

[Doug Garson]

According to the Economist, the average commute in the US is less than 60 min per day so for all those with long commutes there must be a bunch of people with much shorter commutes.

[Malcolm McLeod]

I don't understand the basis for your 240v comment. Are you thinking we would need 3 phase power to charge a battery? Wrong. Everyone in America thats on the grid already has 220v power. That is plenty. You can run an entire home off that, no doubt it will charge a battery.

Sweeping statements can get ya.... He said 240V, not 3 phase. And, I have worked on a number of homes with only 120V fuse panels (admittedly old).

[Pat Barry]

Sweeping statements can get ya.... He said 240V, not 3 phase. And, I have worked on a number of homes with only 120V fuse panels (admittedly old).
He said 240 like it was some sort of industrial application, thats why I asked if he meant 3 phase power. Everyone has 120v fuse / breaker panels. I doubt having only a 120v feed to your house is typical. Sure there are sone, but if one is limited to 120v only then they need to be more concerned with other things than electric cars.

[Simon MacGowen]

It is just a matter of time that electric cars will dominate, and that time may come sooner than we may expect:

https://wsoe.org/electric-cars-will-soon-be-cheaper-to-make-than-gas-cars-battery-maker/

Simon

[Art Mann]

It has to be true. I read it on the internet!

[Ken Combs]

I don't understand the basis for your 240v comment. Are you thinking we would need 3 phase power to charge a battery? Wrong. Everyone in America thats on the grid already has 220v power. That is plenty. You can run an entire home off that, no doubt it will charge a battery.

Just to pick a nit: 220v has been obsolete for a long time. What we have is 120/240 single phase.
For some 240v is the only viable voltage for reasonable charge times.

[Matt Mattingley]

Just to pick a nit: 220v has been obsolete for a long time. What we have is 120/240 single phase.
For some 240v is the only viable voltage for reasonable charge times. A’ll second this. For those who are in residential or light commercial with no three phase, generally you are on what is called split single phase. This is “one” leg of what the generation plant makes and then it becomes a split phase just before it enters your home or light commercial .

A split phase is usually anywhere between 230 V to 255 V. I am currently sitting at 241 V as I type this. So I have 120 V positive and 121 V negative on the split phase. I believe 110 V/220 V has been gone since the early 70s???

[Bill Dufour]

220 volts has been gone in the USA since about the time that electric starters became standard on automobiles. I would guess after electric headlights and decades before electric wiper motors.
Bill

[Pat Barry]

I give up....

[Mike Lassiter]

I have a 2017 Chevy Bolt. Purchased "new" sort of in March 2018. Previously titled with 699 miles on it when I took it home. Currently something over 18,000 miles on it. Drive 22.1 miles each way to work 6 days a week. Charge the car Sunday night at home with the 240 volt charger I installed. Last check of commercial electric rates was $0.1148 per KWH if memory is right. I have regularly drove it and gotten 4.5 miles per KW of battery. Several trips have used 14 miles of battery making the 22.1 mile drive. Electric is the only vehicle that can put energy back into the "tank" during a drive. Last time I calculated my cost was between 2 and 3 cents per mile for electricity. Zero maintenance other than having tires rotated every 7500 miles. I drove a Ford Fusion Energi (plug in hybrid) for over a year. How about driving over a month, and 2300 miles on 13 gallons of gas? Plugged car in a 240 volt charger at home and drove to work. Owner allows me to charge at work, so with both cars the cost of commuting to work is cut into half. The Fusion was what persuaded me to go full electric.
All electric has some short comings, the range issue is one. I have charged once in Nashville and drove back to home using a EV charging station. That cost more than gas would have cost, especially in the Fusion which would go over 700 miles on a tank on a long trip. I don't drive long trips often. The all electric Bolt has served me great. Excellent power, drive all week after charging Sunday night without plugging it back in. Note even if I don't charge it at work I can drive nearly all week without having to charge it unless extra trips are made besides work. Electric range drops a good deal in cold weather, going from 4.5 miles per KW to around 3 - 3.5 when heat is needed. The car is best for city driving in my opinion, as it will regen charge the battery much more due to starting and stopping or slowing down which puts power back into the battery much more so than highway driving. Car is extremely quite! Wind noise, some tire noise going down the highway. Maybe they aren't for everyone, but I see many have preconceived thoughts and opinions about them without any first hand knowledge or even ever drove one. It has very good power, zero to sixty @ 6.5 seconds I think; however it isn't a Demon or Hellcat, but it's no golf cart either.
Consider what oil changes, tune ups and all the emission control and engine management stuff cost to repair, converters in exhaust systems with some vehicles having 4 of them. All of that is gone. Trains are propelled by - electric motors powered by diesel engines running generators. They are extremely reliable, and have one moving part rather than dozens that could fail.
Arguing pros and cons seems pointless to me when most arguments are more opinion based than factual.

[Matt Mattingley]

I have a 2017 Chevy Bolt. Purchased "new" sort of in March 2018. Previously titled with 699 miles on it when I took it home. Currently something over 18,000 miles on it. Drive 22.1 miles each way to work 6 days a week. Charge the car Sunday night at home with the 240 volt charger I installed. Last check of commercial electric rates was $0.1148 per KWH if memory is right. I have regularly drove it and gotten 4.5 miles per KW of battery. Several trips have used 14 miles of battery making the 22.1 mile drive. Electric is the only vehicle that can put energy back into the "tank" during a drive. Last time I calculated my cost was between 2 and 3 cents per mile for electricity. Zero maintenance other than having tires rotated every 7500 miles. I drove a Ford Fusion Energi (plug in hybrid) for over a year. How about driving over a month, and 2300 miles on 13 gallons of gas? Plugged car in a 240 volt charger at home and drove to work. Owner allows me to charge at work, so with both cars the cost of commuting to work is cut into half. The Fusion was what persuaded me to go full electric.
All electric has some short comings, the range issue is one. I have charged once in Nashville and drove back to home using a EV charging station. That cost more than gas would have cost, especially in the Fusion which would go over 700 miles on a tank on a long trip. I don't drive long trips often. The all electric Bolt has served me great. Excellent power, drive all week after charging Sunday night without plugging it back in. Note even if I don't charge it at work I can drive nearly all week without having to charge it unless extra trips are made besides work. Electric range drops a good deal in cold weather, going from 4.5 miles per KW to around 3 - 3.5 when heat is needed. The car is best for city driving in my opinion, as it will regen charge the battery much more due to starting and stopping or slowing down which puts power back into the battery much more so than highway driving. Car is extremely quite! Wind noise, some tire noise going down the highway. Maybe they aren't for everyone, but I see many have preconceived thoughts and opinions about them without any first hand knowledge or even ever drove one. It has very good power, zero to sixty @ 6.5 seconds I think; however it isn't a Demon or Hellcat, but it's no golf cart either.
Consider what oil changes, tune ups and all the emission control and engine management stuff cost to repair, converters in exhaust systems with some vehicles having 4 of them. All of that is gone. Trains are propelled by - electric motors powered by diesel engines running generators. They are extremely reliable, and have one moving part rather than dozens that could fail.
Arguing pros and cons seems pointless to me when most arguments are more opinion based than factual.

I’ve been working with electric motors for over 30 years. Your point has great merit. But what does it cost to swap out the battery outside of a 5 warranty? I’ve swapped out motors in my own driveway for $1000. Could I do the same with a battery in a car???

[Jim Falsetti]

Mike, I would suggest charging the car more often, unless you are topping off each day at work. I'm pretty sure the battery will last much longer if you minimize the depth of charge.

[Kevin Beitz]

All I can say is this is a good read... Keep it coming. I love playing with electric.
I put time into fuel cells and I don't see that happening ... Waiting for solar cells on the roof tops of cars.

[Alan Rutherford]

I’ve been working with electric motors for over 30 years. Your point has great merit. But what does it cost to swap out the battery outside of a 5 warranty? I’ve swapped out motors in my own driveway for $1000. Could I do the same with a battery in a car??? You might. I can't speak for Volts but 60 seconds of Google confirmed what I found previously about Priuses: $800-$1500, in your driveway. You can also replace individual cells. Those batteries (I'm amused that Toyota now calls it the "traction battery") last a long time. When we traded in our 2005 Prius recently it had 165,000 miles on it and would still get 50mpg on a good day. The battery was fine but repairing the air conditioning would have cost more than the car was worth.

[Yonak Hawkins]

..Interesting juxtaposition of the modern car towing the antique auto. In the early days of the automobile it really was a competition as to whether the electric vehicle would win out or the gasoline vehicle. Women drivers disdained the gasoline vehicles because they didn't like cranking the engine in their nice clothes. The advent of Kettering's electric starter changed that .. and then, when Henry Ford started selling cars with gasoline engines for a third of the price of those with electric motors, the die was cast, until the 21st century.

[Jim Falsetti]

I think the PHEV batteries are designed and operated differently than the all-electric batteries, and will last much longer. My business partner has a Chevy Volt with over 200,000 miles on it. No significant battery decay as of yet.

[Steve Demuth]

It would take a long time to gather all the information that has come to light since the report was released but a few things stick out in my mind. The report assumes that the temperature rise over the time period in question will be 15 degrees F. That number is higher than the worst case scenario published by the IPCC. The number is based on predictions from computer models that have already been proven to be spectacularly wrong on previous occasions. Another assumption is that coal consumption will resume its upward use trajectory. In reality, natural gas, which releases much less carbon into the atmosphere, is rapidly taking the place of coal for economic rather than ecological reasons. The report also implies that current weather conditions are out of the normal and will continue to get worse, which will profoundly affect the economy. The reality is that current weather conditions are not very different from previous centuries and have not been getting any worse so far. All this information is available on line and in most cases it comes directly from government sources. If you dig enough, most of the report turns out to be guesses derived from a near impossible combination of worst case scenarios. It is not difficult to understand and does not require the knowledge of experts as Dan assumes. Sometimes you just have to look at the obvious.

I've actually read the report. The reports on the report that you are reading are cherry picking and exaggeration of what it actually says. The report is based almost entirely on predictions consistent with the IPCC. Essentially every impact assessment is outlined for scenarios with constrained temperature increases (4.5F by end of century) and high (9 to 12F). I did not see any tied to 15F.

[Brian Elfert]

All I can say is this is a good read... Keep it coming. I love playing with electric.
I put time into fuel cells and I don't see that happening ... Waiting for solar cells on the roof tops of cars.

The Toyota Prius has/had an option for a solar panel. However, I believe it was just for powering a vent fan to keep the vehicle cooler in the sun.

A typical car roof could likely generate about 600 watts from solar at peak. The Chevy Bolt has a 60KWh battery that would take 100+ hours to charge in the sun. One could also put solar on the roof and trunk, but I doubt the cost to do full solar on a car would have enough value for most owners for what it would cost. Solar efficiency is slowly getting higher so it will be more and more practical.

[Darcy Warner]

I will stick with a pre emissions diesel or gas truck for as long as possible. Mining and producing lithium batteries is a horrible process. Not to mention disposing of them.

There is a 1909 studebaker electric car across the street,neat novelty

[Vincent Tai]

I will stick with a pre emissions diesel or gas truck for as long as possible. Mining and producing lithium batteries is a horrible process. Not to mention disposing of them.

There is a 1909 studebaker electric car across the street,neat novelty

What are you talking about?

Vast majority of lithium salts are extracted from brine pools etc. Mining ore is expensive to the point where it simply not competitive and doesn't really work. Extraction is also far less harmful then oil sands. Is it environmentally benign, no. Ideally the lithium batteries are even more green if charged with solar, wind, non emission sources/not from a fracking site that turns the landscape into a desolate sight. Lithium battery components can be recycled, including the lithium. Used electric car batteries can function as energy storage. People jump on the word lithium because it's conveniently in the name and everyone knows what a rechargeable battery is. So random blanket statements that make no sense or have any fact become quite popular, as do ideas of so called mining of lithium. If one were to actually take a look at negative factors to the environment in batteries then take a look at cobalt, copper etc mining. One can start an argument there, and also to the future of lithium with growth demand and the possibility of having to mine for it to keep up.

The fact that it can use renewable non emission energy and can have its components recycled or repurposed makes the oil and gas side of things quite dirty, you can't really recycle your truck fumes. Maybe some coal rolled kippers like out of the Grand Tour and you get some use out of the fumes. Once the gas is burnt its gone. Extracting and producing gas is a horrible process. Not to mention disposing, transportation, and the use of it. It has allowed for humanity to leap forward. I love the sound of a good engine. Being in a skilled driver's car when they do that perfect shift. But eventually things progress.

[Adam Herman]

I would really like to see a 'total cost of ownership' comparison over 1-10 years for a few examples of both ICE and selected 'electric', battery, hybrid etc.

that should include cost of vehicle, gas, electric costs, home charging installation, service, battery replacement, oil changes etc. As stated total cost of ownership, not selected points, but the whole package.

I think there will be a lot of surprises for some people when considering upgrading to electric. Installation of a 240v charging station by a pro can really eat into the projected savings for instance.

Adding PV panels for that purpose sounds great, until you price package, controls, panels, installation etc.

It cost about 100 bucks to install our 50 amp outlet (which is used by my drill press, welder and our car). We replaced a car that was going to get replaced anyway with something similar. we save about about $100 per month in fuel cost when you factor in the 1 dollar a day it costs to charge it. We have paid for a couple oil changes and had no other issues, saving the cost of many extra oil changes. The brakes are about 95% after 70k miles because of regen braking. Volt batteries are showing very little degradation even after 300,000 miles. Your Ice would likely be wore out by then anyway so no extra cost over and ICE car when it comes replacement time.

I think you may be the one that is surprised.

[Nicholas Lawrence]

Kelley blue book publishes the five year ownership cost, which is the most comprehesive estimate I have seen. From what I can tell, hybrid/electric cars are a bit more expensive then comparable conventional cars. Not sure if that takes into account the subsidies, or if those are even still in place.

[Van Huskey]

Somewhat old (in internet terms) but I found this interesting:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lj1a8rdX6DU

Also the Tesla 3 is the "safest" car ever tested by NHTSA

https://cleantechnica.com/2018/10/08/tesla-model-3-safest-car-ever-tested-by-nhtsa-how-did-tesla-pull-it-off/

[Jim Falsetti]

It would seem if Tesla are the safest cars, they should have low insurance rates.

I have heard from some Tesla owners their insurance cost is about the same as a Porsche. I have also heard repairs (say, from an accident) are very expensive, and take a really long time.

Jim

[Jim Becker]

Jim, insurance rates are set by a variety of factors. "Safe" is great for liability and hospitalization rates, but "expensive to repair" is what sends comprehensive and collision coverage skyward. The latter is the reason that Tesla is expensive to insure.

[Bill Dufour]

Many people do not realize a Tesla is a super fast super car. Would they be surprised to find it cost more to insure a Ferrari? For road driving a Tesla is faster then a Ferrai. I believe it is the faster production car 0-60MPH. I have read the problem with a Tesla is that there is no indication to most drivers that you are driving too fast. An ICE car screams at you at full throttle and most drivers back off a bit. Claim is many tesla drivers ignore the slight feedback and over load the motors and cause premature problems. How many here use full throttle for every single start form a full stop?
electric motors are different then ICE power. They can be overloaded by quite a bit for short periods of time. A ICE engine has a top horsepower and no more. A motor can easily produce double the safe cruising power for say three seconds and be up to 60MPH in those three seconds.

[Yathin Krishnappa]

I have heard from some Tesla owners their insurance cost is about the same as a Porsche. I have also heard repairs (say, from an accident) are very expensive, and take a really long time.

Jim

That is true. My boss and I both moved from Porsches to Teslas and our insurance rates were comparable to what we were paying before. Interestingly, it costs more to insure my Model S than the X even though the X is about $20k more as configured. The insurance agent swears it has nothing to do with the Model S being red, but somehow I don't believe them. :-)

I have read horror stories of wait times for accident repairs on the Tesla forums and sure hope I don't have to go through that ever. A few years ago, my BMW was in the shop for 6 months because it had carbon fiber damage that it suffered when it got rear-ended by a distracted driver. None of the local dealerships knew how to fix the damage and my insurance company didn't want to total it and shopped around for a fix forever. So, I guess it's not just the Teslas that can sit in the shop forever.

[Yathin Krishnappa]

I have read the problem with a Tesla is that there is no indication to most drivers that you are driving too fast. An ICE car screams at you at full throttle and most drivers back off a bit. Claim is many tesla drivers ignore the slight feedback and over load the motors and cause premature problems. How many here use full throttle for every single start form a full stop?

There are many options in Teslas to control acceleration and speed:
1. You can set max speed
2. You can set audible chime and/or visual feedback if going over "x" (configurable) miles over speed limit
3. You can set acceleration to "chill mode" (that's what it is called), or ludicrous mode for the P-cars (can't do this on a cold battery though)
4. You can forget that you have a lead foot! :-)

You are right that people accelerating quickly all the time will destroy their Teslas prematurely and that's a big thing to consider if anyone is looking to buy used Teslas.

[Lee DeRaud]

The insurance agent swears it has nothing to do with the Model S being red, but somehow I don't believe them. :-)I have never once had an insurance company ask me the color of the car when applying for coverage.
Then again, I've only been buying car insurance for 50 years, including Porsches and Corvettes, so what do I know. :)

[Van Huskey]

Many people do not realize a Tesla is a super fast super car. Would they be surprised to find it cost more to insure a Ferrari? For road driving a Tesla is faster then a Ferrai. I believe it is the faster production car 0-60MPH.

Tesla doesn't have the fastest 0-60 but they are close. When you are sub 3.0 0-60 you are beginning to approach the limits of DOT tires. So a lot of high HP ICE cars are becoming highly traction limited. I am seeing more and more Teslas at the track and while they are wicked fast from 0-60 I can walk away from them on the straights like they are dragging an anchor. However, they are big family movers so they are still impressive. Now the electric supercars are a different story the Nio EP9 has run a 6:46 on the Nordschleife but still not as quick as some ICE road cars.

[Van Huskey]

I have never once had an insurance company ask me the color of the car when applying for coverage.
Then again, I've only been buying car insurance for 50 years, including Porsches and Corvettes, so what do I know. :)

Did they have your VIN? If so they knew what color the car was.

[Lee DeRaud]

Did they have your VIN? If so they knew what color the car was.They can certainly can obtain the paint code from the manufacturer using the VIN, but the VIN itself does not contain it.

Then again, if they actually cared (hint: they don't), they would just ask when you applied for coverage.

[Van Huskey]

They can certainly can obtain the paint code from the manufacturer using the VIN, but the VIN itself does not contain it.

Then again, if they actually cared (hint: they don't), they would just ask when you applied for coverage.

You are correct VINs do not have paint codes in them, I also did not say they cared about the color, which I agree does not affect coverage costs. All underwriters do pull the full VIN record (they are contained in a single complete database available through multiple sources) because they do care about engine size, tranny, brakes, restraint systems, trim level etc. Sometimes they will ask the customer certain things but the actual quote comes from what the VIN record shows. The vast majority of people could not answer all the questions correctly even if they tried.

[Bill Dufour]

Of course you can repaint a car any color of the rainbow, including black.

[Brian Henderson]

Every insurance I have ever had has wanted pictures of the vehicle, or to have it taken to an inspection station, when you put it on the insurance. They want to verify that it has no body damage that you will then try to get them to pay for.

[Jim Becker]

Every insurance I have ever had has wanted pictures of the vehicle, or to have it taken to an inspection station, when you put it on the insurance. They want to verify that it has no body damage that you will then try to get them to pay for.
I've never had that request, ever. It might be a carrier, local demographics or state specific thing.

[Brian Henderson]

I've never had that request, ever. It might be a carrier, local demographics or state specific thing.

3 different major nationwide insurers.

[Jim Becker]

Interesting. Not even once since my first vehicle at age 21 have I been asked for photos of the same, even when changing insurers. (And i'm soon to turn 62) Maybe PA's insurance law doesn't permit it.

[glenn bradley]

My SoCal experience is the same as Jim's with one exception about 20 years ago when I bought a second hand Jeep pickup 4x4. I don't know if the 4x4 or the Jeep brand factored in but, that was the one time I was asked for pics.

[Jim Becker]

Glenn, I would guess that having a vehicle that would commonly be subjected to mods might enter into that photo request and the Jeep pickup at the time (and the new Gladiator about to be released this coming year) often get that off-road treatment with third party, expensive parts, etc. They certainly wouldn't care about my Grand Cherokee in that particular light. LOL

[Brian Henderson]

Obviously, this has always been for used cars, never for new.

[Jim Becker]

Obviously, this has always been for used cars, never for new.

I have no experience with used outside of that very first car in about 1978, but I can see why the request might be placed.

[Lee DeRaud]

Obviously, this has always been for used cars, never for new.Not true for my Porsche or Corvette (11 and 9 years old respectively at time of purchase)...maybe it's just you. :)

[Rick Potter]

State Farm has only asked for pics of my cars when they are old, and I specify a stated value, like my '55 Thunderbird. There can be a $40,000 or more difference in value on such cars, and they want to have baseline pics.

I was looking at ads last night, and found some priced from $15K to over $70K. The really high priced ones better have receipts, documentation, and appraisals, if the owners ever need to collect on the policy. The company also wants assurance the car is kept in a secure garage.

[Lee DeRaud]

State Farm has only asked for pics of my cars when they are old, and I specify a stated value, like my '55 Thunderbird. There can be a $40,000 or more difference in value on such cars, and they want to have baseline pics.

I was looking at ads last night, and found some priced from $15K to over $70K. The really high priced ones better have receipts, documentation, and appraisals, if the owners ever need to collect on the policy. The company also wants assurance the car is kept in a secure garage.There's really no substitute for stated-value coverage on a vehicle like that. Although, despite being a State Farm customer for decades, I'm not sure they'd be my first choice for anything truly collectable: that's a pretty specialized market.

[Van Huskey]

Obviously, this has always been for used cars, never for new.

Oddly enough the one time I have been ask to "show them the car" was a brand new M3.

I added over the phone like I had for many cars in the past (and several since) and the lady said I needed to drop by my local agent for an inspection, I "corrected" her reminding her that it was a new car but she said I had to. No biggie the agent was on the way home when I got there and explained the agent said they had never had that request for a new car, he looked out the window, saw a new car and clicked the "box" on the computer and I was on my way.

[Ronald Blue]

Interesting thread. No opinion to weigh in with except where diesel electric locomotives are concerned. That's throwing information out there without the qualifying of it. Yes there was a diesel electric locomotive produced in the 1920's. However it wasn't until the 50's when the power reached levels that made them a good choice to replace steam power. There is not much chance that a rechargeable road locomotive will be produced in the near future unless there is a major break through in battery technology. LNG is being tested currently. That requires a "tender" car per locomotive. I don't know how the horsepower compares. I have saw them roll by though. Carry on.

[Rick Potter]

Porsche made two recent announcements.

1: They have been taking $2500 deposits for their new Taycan electric sports car, and they are already sold out for 2020.

2: The company predicts that half of all Porsche cars built in 2025 model year will have plugs.

This is being rushed by new European and Chinese laws for future cars.

Info from Green Cars.com

[Stan Calow]

Regarding electric cars, I'd like to know what their reliability is for all other components of the car, besides the engine/batteries. That is, since there is no exhaust or cooling system, and simpler transmission, ignition, oil etc., are the maintenance costs significantly lower and the repairs less frequent.

[Steve Demuth]

Interesting. Not even once since my first vehicle at age 21 have I been asked for photos of the same, even when changing insurers. (And i'm soon to turn 62) Maybe PA's insurance law doesn't permit it.

Ditto. New or used, never been asked for a. Vehicle photo.

[Mike Henderson]

Regarding electric cars, I'd like to know what their reliability is for all other components of the car, besides the engine/batteries. That is, since there is no exhaust or cooling system, and simpler transmission, ignition, oil etc., are the maintenance costs significantly lower and the repairs less frequent.

I don't have any data but if you look at tools that are electric motor driven compared to any tool with a gasoline motor, the electric motor driven tool will last longer and have less maintenance requirements.

The big question is how long the battery lasts since the battery is a major cost item.

Mike

[Bill Dufour]

Interesting thread. No opinion to weigh in with except where diesel electric locomotives are concerned. That's throwing information out there without the qualifying of it. Yes there was a diesel electric locomotive produced in the 1920's. However it wasn't until the 50's when the power reached levels that made them a good choice to replace steam power. There is not much chance that a rechargeable road locomotive will be produced in the near future unless there is a major break through in battery technology. LNG is being tested currently. That requires a "tender" car per locomotive. I don't know how the horsepower compares. I have saw them roll by though. Carry on.

The trolley buses in San Francisco now have a small battery in them so they can run one or two blocks off the hook to get around a stalled bus etc. It used to be they could not move if the hooks came off the wires.
Bill D.
T

[Yathin Krishnappa]

Regarding electric cars, I'd like to know what their reliability is for all other components of the car, besides the engine/batteries. That is, since there is no exhaust or cooling system, and simpler transmission, ignition, oil etc., are the maintenance costs significantly lower and the repairs less frequent.

I feel that it is going to be cheaper and more reliable, but it's probably not the most important factor in buying an electric car today. There's probably no real data except for a few outlier Teslas that have done hundreds of thousands of miles. For what it's worth, my personal experience is that Tesla maintenance costs (service+tires) are on par with Porsche. Also, Tesla parts are not easily available and that combined with proprietary software which is a major component of the car makes it not easily serviceable by third party.

[Dan Friedrichs]

Regarding electric cars, I'd like to know what their reliability is for all other components of the car, besides the engine/batteries. That is, since there is no exhaust or cooling system, and simpler transmission, ignition, oil etc., are the maintenance costs significantly lower and the repairs less frequent.

In addition to the complete lack of many maintenance "parts" (oil, exhaust, fuel system, etc), even brakes apparently last a very long time (since the regen braking does most of the work, not the friction pads).

[Bill Dufour]

I wonder how long the VFD will last in then real world of wet and vibrations. That is probably more expensive then the motors.
Bill

[Van Huskey]

I wonder how long the VFD will last in then real world of wet and vibrations. That is probably more expensive then the motors.
Bill

I can't imagine that vibration isolation and keeping the motor controller dry is much of an engineering head scratcher given the amount of electronics in even the cheapest cars today.

[Nicholas Lawrence]

I feel that it is going to be cheaper and more reliable, but it's probably not the most important factor in buying an electric car today. There's probably no real data except for a few outlier Teslas that have done hundreds of thousands of miles. For what it's worth, my personal experience is that Tesla maintenance costs (service+tires) are on par with Porsche. Also, Tesla parts are not easily available and that combined with proprietary software which is a major component of the car makes it not easily serviceable by third party.

I mentioned the Edmunds true cost of ownership numbers a while ago. They show electric as marginally more expensive than gas for comparable vehicles, at least that is the way it looks to me. If others have other data I would be interested to see it, but that is what I can find.

People have mentioned oil changes a few times as an expense. I changed my oil once this year, and I drive a fair amount. Modern cars do not need the three month/three thousand mile maintenance that was standard thirty years ago. Mine has a sensor and when a change is needed it comes on. It is a five year old model.

Aside from a tire that ended up with a nail in it, My largest maintenance expense this year was actually wipers.

[Dan Friedrichs]

People have mentioned oil changes a few times as an expense. I changed my oil once this year, and I drive a fair amount. Modern cars do not need the three month/three thousand mile maintenance that was standard thirty years ago. Mine has a sensor and when a change is needed it comes on. It is a five year old model..

Good point - with average annual mileage of ~15k and synthetic oil, you probably only need 1 oil change/yr.

Still, the massively reduced complexity is exciting.

[Lee DeRaud]

Good point - with average annual mileage of ~15k and synthetic oil, you probably only need 1 oil change/yr.

Still, the massively reduced complexity is exciting.The complexity of modern cars, electric or ICE, is almost totally in the electronics. The ICE is an extremely mature technology, with broad-based third-party parts and diagnostic capability. If an electric car stops running, it's not like you can take it to the local mechanic to get it fixed: for the time being, almost all service will be dealer-only.

At this point, the engine/transmission in any car I'm likely to buy will probably outlive me. Not sure about the rest of the car...I suspect the engine is more durable than external rubber parts like door seals. Then again, that's true of electric cars as well.

[Jim Andrew]

Interesting thread. My wife has a Toyota Corolla, and it makes nearly 40 mpg average, so compares to electric as far as fuel cost, but I paid much less for the car, so going electric probably would not pay for her. I have multiple trucks, being a small farmer, and my Toyota Tacoma only makes about 25 mpg, and also was a fraction of the cost of an electric pickup. The Chevy 2500 with 6.0 engine, does horrible on gas especially when pulling trailers, so it would be interesting to see how a comparable size electric truck would do as far as driving and pulling. My grain trucks also are pretty bad on gas, and I have no diesels. My thoughts about the changeover from gas to electric is, what will they do with the over supply of gas? If they don't go electric with the over the road semi trucks, there will be a huge over supply of gas versus diesel, and the whole economy is designed to use every product derived from oil, from kerosene to asphalt. One other thing I have noticed in the last several years on the farm, is that yields have increased by huge amounts, and I think co2 could be a factor, although we have better genetics and use higher rates of fertilizer.

[Pat Barry]

The complexity of modern cars, electric or ICE, is almost totally in the electronics. The ICE is an extremely mature technology, with broad-based third-party parts and diagnostic capability. If an electric car stops running, it's not like you can take it to the local mechanic to get it fixed: for the time being, almost all service will be dealer-only.

At this point, the engine/transmission in any car I'm likely to buy will probably outlive me. Not sure about the rest of the car...I suspect the engine is more durable than external rubber parts like door seals. Then again, that's true of electric cars as well.

What's ICE? Is that a hybrid? New term to me.

[Brian Elfert]

What's ICE? Is that a hybrid? New term to me.

Internal combustion engine. The regular old gasoline engine that is in hundreds of millions of cars. Technically, it could be any fuel that burns like gasoline, diesel, CNG, or propane.

[Lee DeRaud]

What's ICE? Is that a hybrid? New term to me.ICE = Internal Combustion Engine. And that acronym has been used a couple of dozen times on this thread already...

[Jim Becker]

Parallel to this subject, there was some interesting notation in the auto news this week that there are folks out there who have decided to harass people trying to charge up at the Tesla superchargers in some areas by blocking the spaces with big-but pick-em-up trucks and verbally abusing the electric vehicle owners. It's been dubbed "ICE-ing"... 'gotta wonder what society is coming to. Geepers...

[Pat Barry]

ICE = Internal Combustion Engine. And that acronym has been used a couple of dozen times on this thread already...
Oh, LOL. Well that's a stupid, and unnecessary acronym.

[Dan Friedrichs]

Parallel to this subject, there was some interesting notation in the auto news this week that there are folks out there who have decided to harass people trying to charge up at the Tesla superchargers in some areas by blocking the spaces with big-but pick-em-up trucks and verbally abusing the electric vehicle owners. It's been dubbed "ICE-ing"... 'gotta wonder what society is coming to. Geepers...

Yeah, what an odd story.

Yet, even among the polite conversation on this thread, there seem to be several people who seem very anti-electric. What is this? Is it just tribalism (us vs them)? Or a better thought-out fear that the silicon-valley tech folks will all be driving Teslas and leave others (and a part of their way of life) behind?

[Bill Dufour]

Yeah, what an odd story.

Yet, even among the polite conversation on this thread, there seem to be several people who seem very anti-electric. What is this? Is it just tribalism (us vs them)? Or a better thought-out fear that the silicon-valley tech folks will all be driving Teslas and leave others (and a part of their way of life) behind?

I wonder how those trucks would fair if some helpful person attached the charging cord to them to give them a jump. that is why they parked there right? Lets see 400 volts at 250 amps should get something started right quick.
Bill D.

[Lee DeRaud]

Yet, even among the polite conversation on this thread, there seem to be several people who seem very anti-electric.Offset by an equal amount of fan-boy rah-rah on the pro-electric side.

I'm sort of in the middle: a Bolt (or something else larger than a Leaf and cheaper than a Tesla) would fit in with my life-style quite nicely, but not quite nicely enough for it to be my only car. And I really can't justify owning two cars to cover the 7K or so miles I drive each year...the same circumstances that pushed me from a Boxster to a Corvette to an Accord, bringing me more-or-less full circle to the Acura I had ten years ago.

[Lee DeRaud]

Parallel to this subject, there was some interesting notation in the auto news this week that there are folks out there who have decided to harass people trying to charge up at the Tesla superchargers in some areas by blocking the spaces with big-but pick-em-up trucks and verbally abusing the electric vehicle owners. It's been dubbed "ICE-ing"... 'gotta wonder what society is coming to. Geepers...Probably the same Neanderthals who think it's the height of hilarity to blacken the side of the car next to them with a cloud of diesel soot.

[Jim Becker]

Probably the same Neanderthals who think it's the height of hilarity to blacken the side of the car next to them with a cloud of diesel soot.

Actually...that was mentioned in the article, too. Same folks who tend to modify things so that they create black clouds every time they step on the accelerator hard.

[Ronald Blue]

Actually...that was mentioned in the article, too. Same folks who tend to modify things so that they create black clouds every time they step on the accelerator hard.

They have coined that as "Rolling Coal" Jim. It's apparently cool to have a diesel that you can blow a cloud of thick black smoke. I'm neutral on electric vehicles. They are coming. As more break through's happen they will improve range. I think it will take some time for them to be a factor in trucks. I certainly don't believe the claims Elon Musk puts out there on theirs. Yes they toured the country with one. Not one time did any of the photos I saw show a trailer in tow. Put the total vehicle weight up to the 80,000 legal weight and let's see what the range is. City delivery is probably doable, but no cross country runs for a while. Time will tell.

[Dan Friedrichs]

Offset by an equal amount of fan-boy rah-rah on the pro-electric side.


I resemble that remark ;)

In all objectivity, though, I don't understand the animosity to electric cars. I can't imagine reading a news article about people blocking access to gas pumps with their Teslas...

They won't be for everyone (just as diesel trucks are not "for everyone"), but for vast swaths of the population, they will have significant advantages over gas.

[Lee DeRaud]

I can't imagine reading a news article about people blocking access to gas pumps with their Teslas...I personally know a couple of Tesla owners who might pull that stunt if they were sure they wouldn't get their butts kicked.
Remember the old joke about the difference between BMW owners and porcupines? That's them.

[Brian Henderson]

In all objectivity, though, I don't understand the animosity to electric cars.

We have no animosity to electric cars, we have an animosity to people who expect others to accept a vehicle with significant shortcomings at a higher cost, just because the pro-electric side wants it to happen. As a lot of us have said, when an electric vehicle can do 100% of what an ICE vehicle can, at the same cost, then we'll consider it. Not a moment before. Stop trying to force it on people. That's what makes us mad.

[Dan Friedrichs]

We have no animosity to electric cars, we have an animosity to people who expect others to accept a vehicle with significant shortcomings at a higher cost, just because the pro-electric side wants it to happen. As a lot of us have said, when an electric vehicle can do 100% of what an ICE vehicle can, at the same cost, then we'll consider it. Not a moment before. Stop trying to force it on people. That's what makes us mad.

...who do you think is trying to force it upon you?

[Edwin Santos]

We have no animosity to electric cars, we have an animosity to people who expect others to accept a vehicle with significant shortcomings at a higher cost, just because the pro-electric side wants it to happen. As a lot of us have said, when an electric vehicle can do 100% of what an ICE vehicle can, at the same cost, then we'll consider it. Not a moment before. Stop trying to force it on people. That's what makes us mad.

Yes, please share. Do you live someplace where electric vehicles are mandated, or proposed to be mandated?

[Matt Mattingley]

I see this discussion over and over.

I support those who use electricity to reduce your carbon footprint. I would like them to only use solar charging stations, I’d like them to go to grocery stores, lumber stores,Hardware stores, Cosco’s and Walmarts that only support there trucking and sea container shipping... only using battery. I would also like the same people to use airplanes under the same restrictions... don’t preach with one hand and take with the other!

In the end it comes down to total carbon footprint. Take into fact everything. The person that is driving the Electric car that is a CEO… What are there total personal natural natural gas consumption, electrical consumption of all their homes, businesses as percent Pay out, and business carbon footprint is on the person shoulders too... do you think one Electric car is going to make a drop in the bucket? Better yet, where do you think their subsidies are coming from?

Change is going to happen slowly. But if you look financially at the top 1%, they throw out vehicles, like the other 90% throughout toilet paper.

[Van Huskey]

One has to keep in mind the discussion (I mean on a global scale) is far more encompassing than just electric vehicles. The discussion is influenced by tons of factors from politics to pocketbooks.

My main fear about the negativity I often see in the US is that we throw away another competitive advantage we have to the rest of the world. Detroit was never really the motor city, it was the engine city but that didn't have the requisite ring. I would really like to see one or a group of US cities become the modern motor city (cities).

[Matt Mattingley]

One has to keep in mind the discussion (I mean on a global scale) is far more encompassing than just electric vehicles. The discussion is influenced by tons of factors from politics to pocketbooks.

My main fear about the negativity I often see in the US is that we throw away another competitive advantage we have to the rest of the world. Detroit was never really the motor city, it was the engine city but that didn't have the requisite ring. I would really like to see one or a group of US cities become the modern motor city (cities).
That would be great in the old big scheme of things, but why do people need to move them selves? Only the rich will be able to get to isolated areas in 10 years. The rest are worker bees. More and more people can’t afford their own vehicle. Things are moving so fast that public transit is all people can afford. Soon the old airplane trip to wherever will be the bus trip of the future. Or a mix of airplane/train/boat/bus/taxi. Even renting a car, I find 10% of today’s Youth don’t even care to be motivated to get a drivers license.

[Yonak Hawkins]

I would like them to only use solar charging stations, I’d like them to go to [places]... only using battery. I would also like the same people to use airplanes under the same restrictions... don’t preach with one hand and take with the other!

I really don't understand this point. The people who use electric are trying to do something. The fact that they're not doing everything shouldn't negate their effort. They're doing what they can, helping in their own way.

Does their effort infringe on you in some way ? I don't see them forcing anyone to buy an electric car who doesn't want one. If they support legislation, for instance, that is aimed to help resolve environmental issues, it won't affect everyone unless it is passed by a majority. That's the way it works with all legislation. What's with the antipathy ?

[Dan Friedrichs]

More and more people can’t afford their own vehicle.

For what it's worth, the cost of new cars has actually been significantly decreasing over the past 20 years (https://seekingalpha.com/article/81546-real-prices-for-new-cars-keep-going-down), and has obviously improved in fuel economy, quality, safety, and comfort.

It sounds like you see electric cars as a proxy for a sort of societal shift that is leaving people behind and changing a "way of life". That's fair. It's probably inevitable, though.

[Art Mann]

The indisputable truth is that current renewable energy technology is considerably more expensive than fossil fuels. Furthermore, it isn't even feasible on a national basis. That isn't going to change without some breakthrough technology that you can't just call up on demand. By attempting to force a shift to renewable energy at this point in time, we are agreeing to accept a dramatically lower standard of living - with the exception of the wealthy. That is the "way of life" you are talking about. I don't blame anyone for objecting to that.

[Dan Friedrichs]

The indisputable truth is that current renewable energy technology is considerably more expensive than fossil fuels.

Art, respectfully, that's not true. The cost of renewable energy has been widely-reported to be on par with fossil fuels, today: https://www.businessinsider.com/solar-power-cost-decrease-2018-5

[Yonak Hawkins]

By attempting to force a shift to renewable energy at this point in time ....

Again, who's forcing what ? What am I missing ?

[Yathin Krishnappa]

Parallel to this subject, there was some interesting notation in the auto news this week that there are folks out there who have decided to harass people trying to charge up at the Tesla superchargers in some areas by blocking the spaces with big-but pick-em-up trucks and verbally abusing the electric vehicle owners. It's been dubbed "ICE-ing"... 'gotta wonder what society is coming to. Geepers...

Jim, I've been ICE-ed once (in picture below)! And from reading the Tesla forums, I believe that this happens all over the country.

399939

[Yathin Krishnappa]

I see this discussion over and over.

I support those who use electricity to reduce your carbon footprint. I would like them to only use solar charging stations, I’d like them to go to grocery stores, lumber stores,Hardware stores, Cosco’s and Walmarts that only support there trucking and sea container shipping... only using battery. I would also like the same people to use airplanes under the same restrictions... don’t preach with one hand and take with the other!



That's kinda extreme, maybe? But I see your point. Electric car drivers (like Prius drivers before) can act snobbish and that's very off-putting. However, there are some of us who drive electrics who understand that it cannot work for a majority of people and think of this as an experiment where we can contribute to. Like you say, there are a LOT of other ways to be contributing (e.g, supporting local produce/businesses) that are as much or more environmentally friendly than cruising around in cool electrics! :-)

[Ronald Blue]

Jim, I've been ICE-ed once (in picture below)! And from reading the Tesla forums, I believe that this happens all over the country.

399939

Were you intentionally ICE-ed or was that the only spaces available to park when he arrived?
I think the question of paying their fair share needs to be addressed and soon. Both by the federal government and by state governments. Instead of just a fuel tax make it a mileage tax. The technology is already here but listen to people scream about their rights to drive wherever and whenever they want without anyone knowing. But all but a small percentage of larger trucks already are required to report electronically all the driver and vehicle activities. This isn't likely to happen anytime soon though. We shall see.

[James Pallas]

First global warming, than climate change, the latest is ice age. Who knows scientist are guessing just like the rest of us. If they really knew they wouldn’t be changing horses. The sky is falling just like always. By the way there are more newer cars in the affordable housing project parking lot then there are in the general neighborhood. I’m not against electric cars for what they can do they are okay. What they can’t do is the issue.
Jim

[Nicholas Lawrence]

Again, who's forcing what ? What am I missing ?

I don't feel like a partisan on this issue. I drive a five year old focus that runs on regular gas. When I bought it I looked at the hybrids (I don't think there were any pure electrics then). They were much more than I paid for the focus, and the question of battery replacement was one I could not get answered to my satisfaction. So I went with a proven technology. I looked a rooftop solar array seriously a few years ago. I did not think it was worth it. At this point i just don't want anybody monkeying around on my roof. When it comes time to replace it, I will likely look again, and if it makes financial sense may well put some up there. I have family and friends who are well-educated and others who are not. Some are well off, and some are not. Some live in rural areas, some live in the city. I get along with them all, and I think if you genuinely try to see things from the other point of view (listening with genuine respect) you usually see the other side has a point. Half of the country is too many to write them all off as stupid (which ever half of the country you personally may be looking at at that moment).

I think there are two aspects you may want to consider:

One is the "preachiness" of people who support electric vehicles. They can come across like members of a cult, and the overall vibe is pushy. Some people don't like the pushiness, and simply want to be left alone to make their own decisions when they are ready. I knew someone with a new solar array on their roof. It was worse than having a multi-level marketer move in next door. No, I really don't want to hear about the wonders of your roof again. I looked at it and did not think it made sense for us. Period. Full stop. At a certain point the pushiness gets disrespectful.

The other aspect is the actual force of government policy at many levels. Is there an overt ACA style mandate that somebody has to go out and buy an electric car? No, not yet anyway. If the supporters of the movement had their way, some are concerned that there would be. However, we do have endless government subsidies. Subsidies for the manufacturers, for the suppliers of the manufacturers, and for the purchasers. Then we have subsidies to put in charging stations, which provide subsidized power, for the people driving the subsidized car they bought from the subsidized manufacturer. Then in some parts of the country you have reduced/eliminated tolls. All of it paid for by the taxpayer. Including the same taxpayers that are sneered at and called stupid neanderthals for clinging to the thing that works and gets them to work everyday. If there is a little bitterness, I for one can understand some of it.

Now you think what you want, but some people think the subsidy structure looks like an effort to "force a shift to renewable energy."





The report linked to on commercial level production is interesting. If you look at the full report you find the following:

"Although alternative energy is increasingly cost-competitive and storage technology holds great promise, alternative energy systems alone will not be capable of meeting the base-load generation needs of a developed economy for the foreseeable future."

The report does not compare apples to apples. It is pricing arrays that are piggy-backing on existing conventional/nuclear supply. The cost structure would be much different if you were looking at a solar system that needed to actually meet the demand without that crutch. It is like comparing the skills of the circus guy who works over a net, to the one guy who goes out and walks the tightrope over Niagara Falls or whatever without a net. What they are doing looks the same, but it is really very different.

[Mike Henderson]

Jim, I've been ICE-ed once (in picture below)! And from reading the Tesla forums, I believe that this happens all over the country.

399939

It seems that certain people resent those who can afford expensive cars - and the Tesla S is certainly an expensive car. I had a buddy who owned an expensive Porsche and he used to park it far out in the lot so that no one would park next to him and ding his car. Someone keyed the whole side of his car.

Mike

[James Pallas]

We did away with good transportation years ago, good public transportation. It has now become an unsafe form. I rode a city bus or streetcars to school from the 3rd to the 12th grade. It was safe, lots of working people rode the bus. Inexpensive too. The ride was about an hour. Men and women read the morning or afternoon paper or chatted with friends. I did my homework or chatted with friends or adults. Too bad you can’t do that today. The last rides I took were 25 cents. It would cost you 5 dollars a day to park a car on a lot. We should look at that closer again. Make it safe convenient and cheap and that would really change the so called carbon footprint.
Jim

[Pat Barry]

Jim, I've been ICE-ed once (in picture below)! And from reading the Tesla forums, I believe that this happens all over the country.

399939

Yeah, I bet that guy saw you coming, knew you needed a fancy parking spot, and then deliberately ICE'd you. LOL. Now thats a good use of the term.

[Lee DeRaud]

Electric car drivers (like Prius drivers before) can act snobbish and that's very off-putting.The very first Nissan Leaf I ever saw had a license plate frame that read, "More Pious Than A Prius". :)

[Lee DeRaud]

Were you intentionally ICE-ed or was that the only spaces available to park when he arrived?Even if there weren't chargers there, that idiot is parked illegally.

[Yathin Krishnappa]

Yeah, I bet that guy saw you coming, knew you needed a fancy parking spot, and then deliberately ICE'd you. LOL. Now thats a good use of the term.

Do you also find it funny if someone parked illegally in a handicap spot? :-(

Often, you get to a supercharger when you don’t have much charge to get to another place to charge, so it is in very poor taste to block chargers when there are so few and far apart.

[Ronald Blue]

Even if there weren't chargers there, that idiot is parked illegally.

Really? I guess that's a privilege of the left coast where there is a law for everything and some you haven't thought of. Obviously it's not a big box store where trailers would be welcome but I travel over a large area and my work truck doesn't fit in a standard space. I have yet to park somewhere it's illegal that I am filling more than one space.

[Dan Friedrichs]

Yeah, I bet that guy saw you coming, knew you needed a fancy parking spot, and then deliberately ICE'd you. LOL. Now thats a good use of the term.

"Fancy parking spot"? Do you consider gas pumps "fancy parking spots"? If you needed gas and someone pulled a giant trailer in front of the pumps, would you "LOL" about it?

[Malcolm McLeod]

Jim, I've been ICE-ed once (in picture below)! And from reading the Tesla forums, I believe that this happens all over the country.

399939

^^^Not much context here: Other spaces available? Pull thru spots suitable for a trailer? How long were they parked there? >> You see a rude S@B. I see a person with limited options on how/where to park a trailer. (Is the morality half full or half empty??);)

Nicholas makes excellent points about subsidies IMHO - if you want to be an early adopter of EV and solar, or would rather have your big-block Chevy land-yacht pried from your cold, dead fingers, knock yourself out. Just don't ask me to help pay for it. On the other hand, for the late-to-never adopters, keep in mind that when the vote is in, you may lose (and have to store your ol' Chevy in your 2-car museum).:cool:

For what it's worth, at least one of the major oil company's business plan assumes all light utility vehicles, aka cars and trucks (<3/4t) will be EVs by 2040. Not to say this will come to pass, or that gasoline won't still be available, but by that time ICE users may experience the same 'range anxiety' that the current EV operators feel.

Other modes of transport may lag far behind the above personal transport fuel shift. The energy density advantage that gas/diesel/Jet-A offers, will be tough to beat via known technologies - You and your life-mate might fly to Hawaii for the anniversary, but if you do so in the Boeing battery "dreamEVliner", it will be the same size as the 787 and you 2 will fill both of the allowable seats. ...:eek:No flight crew, but drinks will be self-serve!!:D I wonder what a ticket will cost??

Where is that personal Mr. Fusion reactor when you need it?!?

[Yathin Krishnappa]

Really? I guess that's a privilege of the left coast where there is a law for everything and some you haven't thought of. Obviously it's not a big box store where trailers would be welcome but I travel over a large area and my work truck doesn't fit in a standard space. I have yet to park somewhere it's illegal that I am filling more than one space.

I’ve lived all over the US and there’s a difference between people who drive pickups for work and people who drive pickups for style or hauling their toys. It’s obvious that there are better ways to park and it’s also obvious that Lee was not generalizing all people who drive trucks. I can understand if it’s an emergency or a work truck, but that guy who blocked the chargers was just being obnoxious.

[Nicholas Lawrence]

It seems that certain people resent those who can afford expensive cars - and the Tesla S is certainly an expensive car. I had a buddy who owned an expensive Porsche and he used to park it far out in the lot so that no one would park next to him and ding his car. Someone keyed the whole side of his car.
Mike

Is that the entire set of evidence that he was keyed because someone resented the fact he could afford an expensive car? Do people in normal cars not ever find them dinged or keyed?

One thing that I only ever do see with an expensive car: straddling two parking spaces. I never seem to see poor people do that.

[Yathin Krishnappa]

^^^Not much context here: Other spaces available? Pull thru spots suitable for a trailer? >> You see rude a S@B. I see a person with limited options on how/where to park a trailer. (Is the morality half full or half empty??);)


Wait! You need a context for that? Are you a guy who will park in a handicap spot or a fire lane if there is no other spot?

Also, the fusion reactor is shared — you can use it too. Nothing personal about it.

By the way, about subsidies for electrics — please comment about it only if you’ve never taken a tax break or done a tax write off. The electric subsidy is just another tax break like every other tax handout. No one buys electrics because they need the tax break. I would buy one even if there was no tax break.

[Dan Friedrichs]

^^^Not much context here: Other spaces available? Pull thru spots suitable for a trailer? How long were they parked there? >> You see rude a S@B. I see a person with limited options on how/where to park a trailer. (Is the morality half full or half empty??);)

The Tesla supercharger spots are generally privately-owned parking spots and are clearly marked as being reserved for EVs. So, I have limited sympathy for someone parking their toy-hauling trailer on private property when signage explicitly tells them not to do that.

[Brian Henderson]

Again, who's forcing what ? What am I missing ?

Nobody is holding a gun to anyone's head, but there is a lot of pressure to conform. Government subsidies to electric vehicle owners, increased rights provided to people who own hybrids and electric vehicles, increased taxes on gas drivers because, duh, electric vehicles don't pay gas taxes and therefore don't contribute to the road maintenance funds, gas drivers are being penalized by the electric vehicle crowd and figure they get special treatment because they're special or something.

Given an entirely level playing field, electric vehicles have no chance whatsoever. If there were no subsidies at all provided by the government, if all of the electric vehicle manufacturers had to fund all of their own research and development, if they had to sell their vehicles for what they actually cost and consumers had to pay their fair share on the roadways and not get special treatment, then the whole industry would collapse. It would be an even more niche product than it is. Your Tesla would cost the same amount as a Ferrari and only the rich and snobby would buy them, instead of the middle class and snobby that we have today.

So don't say nobody is being pushed into adopting a technology that currently is a step backwards, because of an absurd political agenda. It's just a lie.

[Bob Turkovich]

Hopefully this won't lead this thread into a political discussion...;)

The previous administration directed an aggressive push by the EPA to increase fuel economy standards - starting in 2020 and escalating thru 2025 - which would result in a major reduction in the emission footprint. The only way for the auto manufacturers to achieve this would be to significantly increase the fleet percentage sales of low emission and zero emission vehicles (i.e., hybrids, full electric vehicles or other alternative fuel options). This is probably a major contributor to an aura of electric vehicles being forced upon the public.

The current administration has suspended this initiative calling on the EPA and the Department of Transportation to develop a more "realistic" (my quotes) plan which is to be disclosed later this winter.

Being a retired automotive engineer (with most of my experience in powertrain), I'm finding this discussion to be quite entertaining while remaining civil.


(Wow! Multiple posts while I was composing this. Maybe I should consider retracting my "civil" comment.:o)

[Brian Henderson]

"Fancy parking spot"? Do you consider gas pumps "fancy parking spots"? If you needed gas and someone pulled a giant trailer in front of the pumps, would you "LOL" about it?

No, I'd go to a different gas station that's probably across the street. You know, because they exist. The infrastructure for electric simply doesn't exist yet, so drivers think they can inconvenience others and demand preferential treatment because they've got their little plug in cars. Presumably, you're talking about a public parking lot. Outside of governmentally protected handicapped spaces, anyone can park in any other spot they want. Just because you have chosen to have special needs doesn't require anyone else to cater to those needs.

[Malcolm McLeod]

Wait! You need a context for that? Are you a guy who will park in a handicap spot or a fire lane if there is no other spot?

Also, the fusion reactor is shared — you can use it too. Nothing personal about it.

By the way, about subsidies for electrics — please comment about it only if you’ve never taken a tax break or done a tax write off. The electric subsidy is just another tax break like every other tax handout. No one buys electrics for the tax break. I would buy one even if there was no tax break.


The Tesla supercharger spots are generally privately-owned parking spots and are clearly marked as being reserved for EVs. So, I have limited sympathy for someone parking their toy-hauling trailer on private property when signage explicitly tells them not to do that.

Man! Y'all can sure tell a lot about a person you've 'met' only in a snapshot. Of their vehicle.

(And I was referring to the personal-sized Mr. Fusion. My bad.)

[Yathin Krishnappa]

Man! Y'all can sure tell a lot about a person you've 'met' only in a snapshot. Of their vehicle.

(And I was referring to the personal-sized Mr. Fusion. My bad.)

Yep. The Internet can definitely be a difficult place for discussions. Especially on “charged” topics. :-)

[Yonak Hawkins]

This conversation is sort of a microcosm of larger conversations and movements in our Country and around the World today. Each side feels they are being preached to or coerced by the other. Each side to some extent is forcing the other to do or depriving the other from doing what they believe is the right thing.

Why can't we all act on our own beliefs and value systems and yet feel we have the right to freely state our opinions (a right guaranteed in the US Constitution, and other places) while the others take these statements for what they are .. beliefs and opinions that may or may not influence thinking ?

[Dan Friedrichs]

No, I'd go to a different gas station that's probably across the street. You know, because they exist. The infrastructure for electric simply doesn't exist yet, so drivers think they can inconvenience others and demand preferential treatment because they've got their little plug in cars. Presumably, you're talking about a public parking lot. Outside of governmentally protected handicapped spaces, anyone can park in any other spot they want. Just because you have chosen to have special needs doesn't require anyone else to cater to those needs.

Brian, I think you misunderstand. Where in the country are you finding "public" parking lots? If you stop and think about it for a minute, I think you'd realize that most "public" parking is actually owned by private companies. They are free to choose to install charging spots wherever they like. If they think a row of superchargers will attract the kind of customer they want, then they may choose to install them.

The Home Depot near me has extra-long parking spots for people with trailers. An accommodation to attract customers with trailers.
The upscale grocery store near me has EV charging spots. I know folks who go to that store just to charge their car.

It's not EV owners "inconveniencing" or "demanding" or having "special needs". It's just market forces at work.

[Dan Friedrichs]

Man! Y'all can sure tell a lot about a person you've 'met' only in a snapshot. Of their vehicle.

(And I was referring to the personal-sized Mr. Fusion. My bad.)

Malcolm, I apologize that my "toy-hauling" comment probably sounded derisive. Not my intent. Sorry.

[Lee DeRaud]

Really? I guess that's a privilege of the left coast where there is a law for everything and some you haven't thought of. Obviously it's not a big box store where trailers would be welcome but I travel over a large area and my work truck doesn't fit in a standard space. I have yet to park somewhere it's illegal that I am filling more than one space.Please tell me where it's legal to park across multiple spots, I'll be sure to avoid it.
Look at that picture again: we're not talking about a work/delivery truck. Serve him right if somebody parked his car in the spot in front of him and another in the spot behind him, and then went to a movie.

[Brian Henderson]

Brian, I think you misunderstand. Where in the country are you finding "public" parking lots? If you stop and think about it for a minute, I think you'd realize that most "public" parking is actually owned by private companies. They are free to choose to install charging spots wherever they like. If they think a row of superchargers will attract the kind of customer they want, then they may choose to install them.

The Home Depot near me has extra-long parking spots for people with trailers. An accommodation to attract customers with trailers.
The upscale grocery store near me has EV charging spots. I know folks who go to that store just to charge their car.

It's not EV owners "inconveniencing" or "demanding" or having "special needs". It's just market forces at work.

It is a publicly accessible parking lot, not gated off or controlled. Unlike handicapped spots, there is no legal protection to those spots, if you call the cops, they will not come out and tow or ticket a non-electric vehicle in those spots. You might not like that, you might be relying on those spots to charge your car, but you have no legal right to those spots. That's the point I was making.

[Dan Friedrichs]

It is a publicly accessible parking lot, not gated off or controlled. Unlike handicapped spots, there is no legal protection to those spots, if you call the cops, they will not come out and tow or ticket a non-electric vehicle in those spots. You might not like that, you might be relying on those spots to charge your car, but you have no legal right to those spots. That's the point I was making.

No one has a legal right to the spots - they're on private property. The cops may not tow the truck, but certainly the owner of the parking lot could have the vehicle towed.

[Nicholas Lawrence]

Please tell me where it's legal to park across multiple spots, I'll be sure to avoid it.
Look at that picture again: we're not talking about a work/delivery truck. Serve him right if somebody parked his car in the spot in front of him and another in the spot behind him, and then went to a movie.

I was at the courthouse the other day and a tractor trailer was parked across like 15 spots, pretty much just like the guy in the picture, just on a bigger scale. Nobody ticketed or towed him. He had a hearing and he had to work. What was he supposed to do?

I think the point a couple of folks have been trying to make is that there is a bit of an assumption of bad motives on the driver's part that may or may not be true. He may not even know what the things are. I live in a pretty Tesla heavy part of the country, but I've never seen one of those charging stations, even in pictures until today.

[Yathin Krishnappa]

I was at the courthouse the other day and a tractor trailer was parked across like 15 spots, pretty much just like the guy in the picture, just on a bigger scale. Nobody ticketed or towed him. He had a hearing and he had to work. What was he supposed to do?


I wouldn't be upset about it and you can understand when people need extra spaces.

More about the Tesla charging spots and the truck: This parking lot was in a mall and there was a lot of space further away from the entrances. This guy had just gone to Dick's Sporting Goods which was close to the chargers. I had to wait (~20 minutes I think) until he came and he just had a smirk on his face and there was no apology. If anyone thinks that behavior is alright, then there's no point arguing with them. Sorry, I should have put this info in the original post as it would have saved a ton of comments. :-)

[Edwin Santos]

Even if there weren't chargers there, that idiot is parked illegally.

Or at the very least, he is being rude and inconsiderate to his fellow human beings.

[Edwin Santos]

I wouldn't be upset about it and you can understand when people need extra spaces.

More about the Tesla charging spots and the truck: This parking lot was in a mall and there was a lot of space further away from the entrances. This guy had just gone to Dick's Sporting Goods which was close to the chargers. I had to wait (~20 minutes I think) until he came and he just had a smirk on his face and there was no apology. If anyone thinks that behavior is alright, then there's no point arguing with them. Sorry, I should have put this info in the original post as it would have saved a ton of comments. :-)

I'll never know what was going through that guy's mind, but hearing confirmation that there were other spaces further away makes his choice really disappointing. I wonder why and when political differences granted a license to abandon common courtesy. And worse yet, so long as the victim is in the other camp, it becomes funny and deserves a hearty LOL.

[Steve Demuth]

It is a publicly accessible parking lot, not gated off or controlled. Unlike handicapped spots, there is no legal protection to those spots, if you call the cops, they will not come out and tow or ticket a non-electric vehicle in those spots. You might not like that, you might be relying on those spots to charge your car, but you have no legal right to those spots. That's the point I was making.

Depends on where you live. 8 states have laws prohibiting parking of a non-pluggable vehicle at a charging station.

And as others have pointed out, the spots are almost all private, provided by a business for their customers, on the business' terms. The person blocking a charging station has absolutely no right in law or equity to do so.

[Yonak Hawkins]

...if you call the cops, they will not come out and tow or ticket a non-electric vehicle in those spots.

No, it's not an argument about legality. It's about civility. It's rude to block the charging stations. Why do it except to be mean ?

[Malcolm McLeod]

Please tell me where it's legal to park across multiple spots, I'll be sure to avoid it.
Look at that picture again: we're not talking about a work/delivery truck. Serve him right if somebody parked his car in the spot in front of him and another in the spot behind him, and then went to a movie.

It's legal in Texas.

[Kev Williams]

No room to park that gigantic pickup truck towing that enormous 12' ATV trailer except across 4 parking spaces that aren't actually parking spaces? Puhleeze-- I've pulled into several podunk town gas stations towing a 26' Chaparral with a 40' Allegro Bus and I've never had any trouble parking it in the fuel pump area. And I only take up 4 spaces of Walmart's and big grocery store lots, and that's out in the barren regions of the lots...

Question I know the answer to-- how many of us has ever blocked the air hose at a gas station? I'm betting not one of us. Courteous people don't do that :)

Whoever owns that pickup/ATV is either a complete ****head or just plain stupid.

[Ronald Blue]

Here's a twist I saw or heard something about recently. Someone who took up a charging location with their EV not because they needed a charge but because they could blocking someone who desperately needed the charging station. I don't know whether this is fact but I surely saw it on the internet so it has to be true. This could become an issue if the popularity in urban areas increases. I know some places limit even the time for an EV. But maybe they need to be need based as well. As for parking in EV spaces it looks like 9 states and the District of Columbia have laws on it.

[Yathin Krishnappa]

Here's a twist I saw or heard something about recently. Someone who took up a charging location with their EV not because they needed a charge but because they could blocking someone who desperately needed the charging station. I don't know whether this is fact but I surely saw it on the internet so it has to be true. This could become an issue if the popularity in urban areas increases. I know some places limit even the time for an EV. But maybe they need to be need based as well. As for parking in EV spaces it looks like 9 states and the District of Columbia have laws on it.

I've experienced that. So, Tesla has started charging for people who "idle" at charging spots because it had become a problem grave enough to address. I've also seen Volts parked in electric car charging spots in long term parking in airports -- which is unfortunate because there are cars that may really need those spots. I've never had to use them as I plan to have a nearly full charge when long term parking. Hopefully, the technology will improve that we'll have to spend much less time charging. That's really important if we want more adopters of the technology.

[Pat Barry]

"Fancy parking spot"? Do you consider gas pumps "fancy parking spots"? If you needed gas and someone pulled a giant trailer in front of the pumps, would you "LOL" about it?
You don't understand the subtlety of my LOL?

[Pat Barry]

Brian, I think you misunderstand. Where in the country are you finding "public" parking lots? If you stop and think about it for a minute, I think you'd realize that most "public" parking is actually owned by private companies. They are free to choose to install charging spots wherever they like. If they think a row of superchargers will attract the kind of customer they want, then they may choose to install them.

The Home Depot near me has extra-long parking spots for people with trailers. An accommodation to attract customers with trailers.
The upscale grocery store near me has EV charging spots. I know folks who go to that store just to charge their car.

It's not EV owners "inconveniencing" or "demanding" or having "special needs". It's just market forces at work.

How much do they charge at your upscale grocery store to charge your vehicle?

[Lee DeRaud]

It's legal in Texas.Well, my folks are dead now (they lived in Arlington at the time), so it's not like I have any reason to go there...

[Chris Parks]

I feel that it is going to be cheaper and more reliable, but it's probably not the most important factor in buying an electric car today. There's probably no real data except for a few outlier Teslas that have done hundreds of thousands of miles. For what it's worth, my personal experience is that Tesla maintenance costs (service+tires) are on par with Porsche. Also, Tesla parts are not easily available and that combined with proprietary software which is a major component of the car makes it not easily serviceable by third party.

There will be a heap of data from Europe, Norway has a 25% road fleet of electric and electric sales are literally taking off at a better rate than production capacity right across Europe. If the data has been compiled yet is another question altogether.

[Dan Friedrichs]

How much do they charge at your upscale grocery store to charge your vehicle?

It's an extra $0.11/pound on the grapes :)

I think it's free. Drives business, I assume.

[Jim Becker]

The Hyatt I stayed frequently in Fair Lakes VA prior to retirement has several charging stations. They are "pay for" setups not specific to a particular vehicle make/model.

[Chris Parks]

One has to keep in mind the discussion (I mean on a global scale) is far more encompassing than just electric vehicles. The discussion is influenced by tons of factors from politics to pocketbooks.

My main fear about the negativity I often see in the US is that we throw away another competitive advantage we have to the rest of the world. Detroit was never really the motor city, it was the engine city but that didn't have the requisite ring. I would really like to see one or a group of US cities become the modern motor city (cities).

It is in interesting that the US manufacturers have basically ignored their domestic market but are going full speed in China to meet the governments mandated fleet percentages for electric vehicles.

The fleet owners of PROPER trucks and not the toys that get called trucks in the US are absolutely salivating at the thought of pure electric because their costs will be way less per kilometre and the reduction in trip times due to significantly better performance on hills and standing starts.

[James Pallas]

There will be a heap of data from Europe, Norway has a 25% road fleet no electric and electric sales are literally taking off at a better rate than production capacity right across Europe. If the data has been compiled yet is another question altogether.
Read the news about what's going on in Europe now.
Jim

[Ronald Blue]

The fleet owners of PROPER trucks and not the toys that get called trucks in the US are absolutely salivating at the thought of pure electric because their costs will be way less per kilometre and the reduction in trip times due to significantly better performance on hills and standing starts.

Just curious as to what you call a proper truck?

[Chris Parks]

"Although alternative energy is increasingly cost-competitive and storage technology holds great promise, alternative energy systems alone will not be capable of meeting the base-load generation needs of a developed economy for the foreseeable future."

The report does not compare apples to apples. It is pricing arrays that are piggy-backing on existing conventional/nuclear supply. The cost structure would be much different if you were looking at a solar system that needed to actually meet the demand without that crutch. It is like comparing the skills of the circus guy who works over a net, to the one guy who goes out and walks the tightrope over Niagara Falls or whatever without a net. What they are doing looks the same, but it is really very different.

That must be an old report because precisely that happens in Australia now, base load is stored in a battery bank for the whole of South Australia.

[Chris Parks]

Just curious as to what you call a proper truck?

A commercial vehicle not a F150.

[Chris Parks]

Read the news about what's going on in Europe now.
Jim

It seems to have been totally ignored in the US from an outsider looking in but Tesla can hold their head high even with all their problems. They have led the charge but the Europeans have grasped the opportunity with both hands.

[Ronald Blue]

Most F 150's are mostly cars here. The real workhorses are the heavier duty pickups and larger. I suppose it depends on where they are located but in rural areas hills and acceleration are rarely an issue. Are your trucks that underpowered? Gas or diesel here generally perform well even toting large trailers. While delivery trucks (UPS type) could benefit from EV technology and they have placed orders for them it's mostly going to be a "show me" and prove it type thing. It will come eventually but it will take time. They have there places they make sense. I've saw the youtube videos of the Tesla racing whatever they choose. One thing I noticed is after the 3rd or 4th pass it begins derating because of I think heat build up. That isn't going to work in a truck running with either a heavy payload or towing a heavy load or high wind resistance. Just some of the issues I see that will have to be worked through.

[Nicholas Lawrence]

That must be an old report because precisely that happens in Australia now, base load is stored in a battery bank for the whole of South Australia.

Or perhaps you should read somethingother than propaganda. According to your own government, your current power mix is still over 40% gas generated.

[Chris Parks]

Most F 150's are mostly cars here. The real workhorses are the heavier duty pickups and larger. I suppose it depends on where they are located but in rural areas hills and acceleration are rarely an issue. Are your trucks that underpowered? Gas or diesel here generally perform well even toting large trailers. While delivery trucks (UPS type) could benefit from EV technology and they have placed orders for them it's mostly going to be a "show me" and prove it type thing. It will come eventually but it will take time. They have there places they make sense. I've saw the youtube videos of the Tesla racing whatever they choose. One thing I noticed is after the 3rd or 4th pass it begins derating because of I think heat build up. That isn't going to work in a truck running with either a heavy payload or towing a heavy load or high wind resistance. Just some of the issues I see that will have to be worked through.

I have been in the transport industry for many years and can only say what is happening, if we can pull .5 of a cent off our kilometre cost rate then we are jumping for joy. Until you have been involved you would not understand how much the electric truck is going to save and the advantages it will have over the diesel. It is early days yet so nothing has actually happened but it will and everyone including the drivers will be happy. One thing that will happen is that electric trucks will be confined to main highways for the most part, if you have seen the Ozzy outback there is no way electric anything will work out there...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XbmY59nLD0g

They run stuff like this all over Oz and diesel will be around for a long time because of it.

[Pat Barry]

It's an extra $0.11/pound on the grapes :)

I think it's free. Drives business, I assume.

So, everyone buying groceries subsizes the few driving E vehicles? That kind of diminishes the argument aboit the truck parking there for a few minutes.

[Lee DeRaud]

One thing that will happen is that electric trucks will be confined to main highways for the most part, if you have seen the Ozzy outback there is no way electric anything will work out there...With the size those 'road trains' are getting to, and the limitations on where they can go, it seems like adding another half-trailer "tender" that holds all the batteries might be an option. Refueling then becomes an unhitch-rehitch operation rather than an extended delay to recharge.

(I can't recall offhand whether Tesla is/was considering a plug-and-go battery pack for their electric big rig. Seemed like the right way to handle that market, since it concentrates the required infrastructure at existing truck stops and major depots.)

[Darcy Warner]

Everyone already blocks the diesel pump anyway.

[Ronald Blue]

I actually know a lot about heavy transport. Like I said there are areas that electric makes sense. Those areas will be population centers where a vehicle may never venture outside a radius of 24 to 32 km. It's going to take a while before the technology is there to impact anything but local delivery. I think you misunderstand me and think I am an opponent. And as you say diesel transports will be around for a long time. Our road systems converted to kilometers total 6,630,497. Over 8 times the amount you have. So as you can see that it will be a long process and probably never happen for a good portion of the country. There will likely be other power sources developed that will be better options.

[Lee DeRaud]

Everyone already blocks the diesel pump anyway.Heh. It's been a long time since I've been at a gas station with dedicated diesel pumps: the ones here all just have a separate diesel hose/nozzle on the same pump station as the gas.

[Dan Friedrichs]

So, everyone buying groceries subsizes the few driving E vehicles?

If that's what the grocery store thinks is best for business, sure, why's it my concern? I assume I buy some groceries which subsidize the $6 rotisserie chicken that's sold at a loss...isn't it exactly the same thing?

[Bill Dufour]

UPS has been running all electric trucks for the last few years. in the flat area near me. I understand they have some in San Diego California as well. Took quite awhile but now I am used to the idea that the UPS truck is almost silent. They do often have their air compressor start as they release the brakes and pull away.
Bill D

[Matt Mattingley]

If that's what the grocery store thinks is best for business, sure, why's it my concern? I assume I buy some groceries which subsidize the $6 rotisserie chicken that's sold at a loss...isn't it exactly the same thing?
No, not at all. I think EV owners should boycott grocery chains that do not put solar panels on the roof with free charging stations, then work it into the grocery price . I think EV owners should primarily (almost exclusively) charge their vehicles using their own personal solar panels off grid. I think EV owners should get special parking spots at the very furthest spot at all stores and workplaces. We could even put gates up around these vehicles like a little gated community. Of course I would hate to hear that we’re charging these vehicles in any shape way or form off the grid where it is possible that coal or natural gas is supplying electricity.

Let’s compare apples to apples.

Those who own EV cars, I would like to see where they are in age and income level, compared to 350 million neighbours.
Then I would like to see them bring into the comparison of their total carbon footprint with all properties and vehicles involved. Just because you own a EV it doesn’t make you greener then your neighbour. In most situations it is reverse.

Most EV owners can afford the change, want to support the change, but not usually at a detriment to them self. Tax incentives, tax write off‘s make things more affordable to those who are looking for tax write off‘s. I mean how many people go to their accountant and say every year how do I get rid of $100,000 where it can benefit me on my taxes?

But in the end, taxes are paid by the people. Nobody should really be getting a free ride.

[Dan Friedrichs]

Matt, I think you over-estimate how much the "green" factor plays into this, for most people. Setting politics, tax incentives, and climate concerns aside, there is still significant demand for EVs because they perform better, are safer, quieter, more convenient, etc.

[Brian Elfert]

I've considered getting a used Ford Focus electric as a second car for my daily commute, but I've decided that it doesn't make sense to have two vehicles. I also don't have room in my garage for two cars with all of the large lawn equipment in my garage. I have solar power at my house, but not sure I have enough extra solar to charge a car. My solar wouldn't directly charge my car most of the time anyhow as I charge at night and don't have battery storage for my solar.

With my luck I would hop in my electric car forgetting that I am going on a longer trip and run out of power, or have to turn around to go home to get the other vehicle.

[Matt Mattingley]

Matt, I think you over-estimate how much the "green" factor plays into this, for most people. Setting politics, tax incentives, and climate concerns aside, there is still significant demand for EVs because they perform better, are safer, quieter, more convenient, etc.

I’m not ignorant. I know the changes coming. I somewhat retired three years ago. Two years ago I joined a very large college/university. Idle hands are the devils playground. We have a photo cells and turbines on top of our building.

- They perform better??? I don’t think so! Compare anything battery operated to any other source of power.
- They are safer??? I don’t think so! Price to price tag (with no incentives) gasoline pound for pound will get you further, and in a head on collision average, Price tag to price tag. A $70,000 EV fully loaded compared to a $70,000 fully loaded anything, I’m pretty sure everyone will be dead in the EV.
- Quieter, you got me here. This is so long as you are charging with only photocells. Wind puts off a ton of noise, so do A lot of power plants.
- More convenient, maybe for the short-haul with an integrated system set up. Drive from Detroit to Florida keys in the next 24 hours in your EV, I fill up five times and it takes me 4 minutes for a fill up. I do this in a Dodge minivan, with a new price tag of $24,000.

I’m interested in your comparisons.

Don’t get me wrong, I commute using a four-door Jeep to work. On Nice days, I would love to do my 5 mile commute using electric assisted pedal bike. I do have a payload of myself +25-50ish pounds. But, I still need my jeep and my minivan. I need my minivan because it is wheelchair accessible (and no EV has provided this), I need my jeep to get to some rough terrain’s that I’m required to go to, and sometimes, I’m pulling at 3000 pound trailer. I do have enough property to support a EV. But I only have two parking spots and my garage is a workshop, so I would have to give the jeep a new parking spot.

Happy New Year’s!

[Yathin Krishnappa]

So, everyone buying groceries subsizes the few driving E vehicles? That kind of diminishes the argument aboit the truck parking there for a few minutes.

Wow! I am baffled by this logic, and by your continued support to someone (the truck guy) who was clearly being obnoxious.

[Yathin Krishnappa]

But in the end, taxes are paid by the people. Nobody should really be getting a free ride.

So, you've never taken a tax break? How are EV incentives any different? Do people take mortgages or have kids just for the tax incentives they come with? The tax code is so complicated that there are "free rides" for everyone.

I am really looking forward to the day that there are no EV incentives, so we can get past this nauseating "free ride" arguments. Even the biggest journeys begin with a single step, and this whole EV experiment has just begun and will continue to evolve.




Those who own EV cars, I would like to see where they are in age and income level, compared to 350 million neighbours.
Then I would like to see them bring into the comparison of their total carbon footprint with all properties and vehicles involved. Just because you own a EV it doesn’t make you greener then your neighbour. In most situations it is reverse.

You are absolutely right that there are many people who are doing more for the planet than those driving EVs. For instance, commuting to work using public transit or bikes are incomparably cleaner than driving EVs. And there are thousands of more ways. It is very unfortunate that the EVs have become a sort of elitist thing and I sincerely hope that it doesn't stay that way for long. EVs are an option and it works well for some and I can totally understand it will not work for a lot of people and respect that choice. Hopefully, we will have more EVs that work for a lot more people and look forward to new technologies and infrastructure to support that.

[Yathin Krishnappa]

- They perform better??? I don’t think so! Compare anything battery operated to any other source of power.


What performance are you referring to? I know people (me included) who moved from Porsches to Teslas and we think Teslas "perform" better. Of course, people who drive supercars may think that electrics don't perform all that well. On my farm, I prefer to use the 200 hp New Holland to stack hay bales, and an F-250 to haul stuff because they perform better for those tasks. ;-)



- They are safer??? I don’t think so! Price to price tag (with no incentives) gasoline pound for pound will get you further, and in a head on collision average, Price tag to price tag. A $70,000 EV fully loaded compared to a $70,000 fully loaded anything, I’m pretty sure everyone will be dead in the EV.


Believe it or not, they are safer. In fact, the Teslas are the among the safest, if not the safest, ever tested. It was a major factor for me to get them. You don't have to take my word for it because it should all be there on the NHSTA website. :-)



Quieter, you got me here. This is so long as you are charging with only photocells. Wind puts off a ton of noise, so do A lot of power plants.


And oil wells, tankers, trains and pumps at gas stations are super quiet?




More convenient, maybe for the short-haul with an integrated system set up. Drive from Detroit to Florida keys in the next 24 hours in your EV, I fill up five times and it takes me 4 minutes for a fill up. I do this in a Dodge minivan, with a new price tag of $24,000.


I could do Detroit to Florida keys with a rental for a price tag of a few hundred dollars. ;-) Seriously though, I would buy a car for that works for a majority of my needs and not for that once-a-year use. I wanted the independence of a gasoline car and kept one around for a year after I bought my Teslas before I got over my "range anxiety" -- so I can understand why people would think electrics will never work for their needs.

[Brian Henderson]

No one has a legal right to the spots - they're on private property. The cops may not tow the truck, but certainly the owner of the parking lot could have the vehicle towed.

Then good luck with that.

[Pat Barry]

Wow! I am baffled by this logic, and by your continued support to someone (the truck guy) who was clearly being obnoxious.

How can you be baffled by the logic that all the grocery store customers are paying for a privileged few that drive E vehicles? That is absurd. As far as the truck guy, we don't really know what was going on, do we? Maybe there was an emergency that he needed to park and found the first spot he could. There are a million possibilities, not all of them point to obnoxious. Most likely, those few charging spots are empty 90% of the day.

[Dan Friedrichs]

How can you be baffled by the logic that all the grocery store customers are paying for a privileged few that drive E vehicles? That is absurd. As far as the truck guy, we don't really know what was going on, do we? Maybe there was an emergency that he needed to park and found the first spot he could. There are a million possibilities, not all of them point to obnoxious. Most likely, those few charging spots are empty 90% of the day.

Pat, why does the grocery thing bother you? How is it different than the "privileged" buying expensive steak so that others can buy a loss-leader chicken?

(and if you read the whole thread, you'd see the poster of that pic explained that the driver was running into a sporting goods store, and that other parking was readily available)

[Dan Friedrichs]

- They perform better??? I don’t think so! Compare anything battery operated to any other source of power.
You can define "performance" however you want, but a Tesla S has a 0-60 time less than many supercars: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fastest_production_cars_by_acceleration



- They are safer??? I don’t think so! ....I’m pretty sure everyone will be dead in the EV.

Three Tesla models are literally the safest cars ever tested by NHTSA, by a huge margin: https://www.fool.com/investing/2018/10/08/tesla-model-3-one-of-the-worlds-safest-cars.aspx



- Quieter, you got me here... Wind puts off a ton of noise, so do A lot of power plants.
The power plant is a long ways from my house:) I won't hear it :)



- More convenient, maybe for the short-haul with an integrated system set up. Drive from Detroit to Florida keys in the next 24 hours in your EV, I fill up five times and it takes me 4 minutes for a fill up. I do this in a Dodge minivan, with a new price tag of $24,000.

I'm not trying to take your minivan away. 99% of my driving is around a metro area. I'll plug-in at home. Never go to a gas station again. Never change oil again. Rarely change brakes. I get to park in the "privileged people" ( ;) ) spot at the grocery store. Sounds super convenient, to me.

[Yathin Krishnappa]

How can you be baffled by the logic that all the grocery store customers are paying for a privileged few that drive E vehicles? That is absurd. As far as the truck guy, we don't really know what was going on, do we? Maybe there was an emergency that he needed to park and found the first spot he could. There are a million possibilities, not all of them point to obnoxious. Most likely, those few charging spots are empty 90% of the day.

Sorry, what "privilege" are you talking about? Since when did driving EVs become a privilege? That is even more absurd than your idea that grocery store customers are paying for electric cars.

Tesla originally offered free supercharging to prove that their cars (and EVs in general) can function as everyday cars. It is meant to be used on road trips and when traveling long distances. However, people started using that as parking spots to do local grocery store runs. It wasn't a problem when the cars were few, but now that there are upwards of 200,000 of them, it is a problem and Tesla does NOT offer free supercharging anymore and fines people who park there when they are not charging. Tesla owners will eventually use chargers as filling stations on road trips and not as parking spots. If you've ever seen where superchargers are located -- they are often located in the far ends of parking lots and generally there are no other cars parked there. I've used superchargers in 15 states and that's a common pattern.

So, if the EV chargers are just like parking spots with a charger then the grocery store customers are not subsidizing EV cars any more than they are for anyone who parks in their parking lot. Also, people a free to NOT shop in grocery stores that have chargers so that they can save $0.0001 on their grocery bill. It's not a coincidence that Tesla superchargers are usually near premium brands (a fact that I hate, by the way).

And about the truck. I did mention later on about what his intentions were. In any case, that's no way to park if it's NOT an emergency or it's NOT a work truck.

[Pat Barry]

Sorry, what "privilege" are you talking about? Since when did driving EVs become a privilege? That is even more absurd than your idea that grocery store customers are paying for electric cars.

Tesla originally offered free supercharging to prove that their cars (and EVs in general) can function as everyday cars. It is meant to be used on road trips and when traveling long distances. However, people started using that as parking spots to do local grocery store runs. It wasn't a problem when the cars were few, but now that there are upwards of 200,000 of them, it is a problem and Tesla does NOT offer free supercharging anymore and fines people who park there when they are not charging. Tesla owners will eventually use chargers as filling stations on road trips and not as parking spots. If you've ever seen where superchargers are located -- they are often located in the far ends of parking lots and generally there are no other cars parked there. I've used superchargers in 15 states and that's a common pattern.

So, if the EV chargers are just like parking spots with a charger then the grocery store customers are not subsidizing EV cars any more than they are for anyone who parks in their parking lot. Also, people a free to NOT shop in grocery stores that have chargers so that they can save $0.0001 on their grocery bill. It's not a coincidence that Tesla superchargers are usually near premium brands (a fact that I hate, by the way).

And about the truck. I did mention later on about what his intentions were. In any case, that's no way to park if it's NOT an emergency or it's NOT a work truck.

You don't know his intentions at all do you? You are just assuming. Its too bad you were inconvenienced. I feel that all the other patrons of that grocery store are also being inconvenienced by higher prices to pay for your free recharge of you <1% vehicle. That's as simple as I can make it for you.