Make Wood Windows for old house - good idea?

[Cosmos Krejci]

Hey all,
I have an old house in a historic district, so windows have to be 100% wood. The existing windows are single pane, not square, don't seal and many are painted and caulked completely shut. We got one guy who we thought could do it, but he turned out to be a flake and never got hard numbers. We just got another quote that was 20k for 14 windows for double pane and dividers/muntins on the tops of most of them. Seemed pretty high to me. The econmy down here for remodel and construction is pretty frisky, so it's hard to get good work out of contractors because there is a ton of demand.
Up to this point, I've wanted to pay someone to do this work, but for 20k, I'm rethinking. We actually just want to redo a room or two, which was mentioned but not quoted (entire house only)
I've got construction experience (mostly framing) and some wood working experience, mostly on a CNC router. How hard of a project do you think this would be to take on? My tools are CNC router, bandsaw, miter saw. I would pick up a table saw.

Thanks in advance for the advice.

[Jeff Heath]

Quality sash work isn't easy to do, but it isn't hard, either. The devil is in the details to get a window and trim that doesn't look bad, especially on a home in a historic district.

Only YOU can determine what your skill level is, and what you are capable of taking on. $20K is a number, shot from the hip, from someone who really doesn't want the work. I know a guy who would do a fantastic job of building them for you, but he's in Oregon. Not much help to Texas.

My suggestion to you is to make one, and see how it goes. You have to find out what wood you're using, and what profiles you want for the muntins, and decide on true divided light vs. applied overlay. You'll learn very quickly what you can and cannot do. If you take your time, and do your research, and apply your skills, you'll be fine.

What one man do, another can do. Effort separates the wheat from the chaff.

[Cosmos Krejci]

I was thinking to use the dividers in between panes. I'm thinking the can be made that way from the glass supplier, but not sure. Yes the plan would be to do a couple and see how it goes. Thanks for the advice

[Darcy Warner]

Shoot me a message, I know a great guy outside of huston.

20k for 14 windows with insulated double panes is not really out of line. Takes a lot of equipment, floor space and quality lumber.

With the tools you have, you won't get the quality sash a professional can offer.

[Paul Girouard]

Pony up and pay the price for the windows. The learning curve is to steep, the window building process is tedious , to a framer it will be even more so tedious.

Just sourcing high quality wood for windows will be a task in and of it self.

The morticing , the sticking, all require special tooling , or making jigs.

Your sentence “ Dividers between panes”, tells me you know little about windows except they have glass in them and you’d like to use insulated glass.

There are companies out there with windows that are designed for historically areas. You’ll pay more for those, BUT you may be stuck with that IF the district you are in is really into preserving the look.

That in fact may be a place to start, ask the district for a list of people who recently remodeled their homes , OR IF YOU already know of a similar home go knock on their door, explain your dilemma , and most likely those people will talk you ear off about who they used , for good or bad, and you can find the right company or brand window to loom into.


Building windows as Jeff Heath said isn’t hard , but it IS a steep learning curve.

G/L what ever you decide. We’re here to help, but I fear you are headed into a huge process with many hurtles.

[Cosmos Krejci]

There are companies out there with windows that are designed for historically areas. You’ll pay more for those, BUT you may be stuck with that IF the district you are in is really into preserving the look.

That in fact may be a place to start, ask the district for a list of people who recently remodeled their homes ,


I haven't found a company that makes 100% wood windows. At our last place we had a couple replaced and they were Milgard. Milgard has discontinued them and they along with many(all as far as I can tell) now offer only partial wood, which I assume is composite with iron on veneer. The windows are on the side of our house. We could probably get away with composite windows, but we would prefer wood windows anyway.

We have asked around. Both leads came from there. First dude was saying around 500 per which seems cheap. He is a flake. Second dude seems legit but is so busy I think he gave us the "I'm so busy" price. In Texas, people don't seem to open their windows even though there is plenty of good times for it. It will be 72 degrees out and all windows shut and A/Cs running. Hence, they get painted shut. A popular option for our problem is to put a permanent storm window over the in or outside. Better for the energy bill, but not conducive to a functioning window.

I framed houses for a couple summers, but I've also done a fair amount of remodel work. Most of my career has been machine & product design and most recently I'm running a machine shop. This would be a new area as I've just worked with pre hung windows before. I appreciate the advice. I'm going to try for a couple more quotes in the area and pick up a book (found this recc on the forum: link (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0806965444/ref=ox_sc_act_image_2?smid=A24FNSZCMCD126&psc=1))

How many special machines do you need? I figure I can get the edge molding done on the router. I can stand parts up lengthwise to do mortising. Thanks

[Mel Fulks]

I pretty much agree with all. But there is a compromise ,you could have all the parts run on a moulder and make them
yourself. That's not difficult if the sticking and rabbeting are not "off set". They can be glued then doweled, real easy.
Use North Eastern white pine and insist all stiles and rails be run "bark side" to exterior. Yeah ,mortise and tenon is
"better" but most sash are not glued and just pinned with fat nails called pins. So you would be making something better
than standard. The argument for not not glueing sash is "they are easier to repair" . My argument for gluing is they won't
need repair. I neglected to say run as "lineal footage"

[Steve Jenkins]

You might check with Lynn Floyd Architectural Millwork in Frisco. Sorry I don’t have the number handy. He does excellent work and is used to historical construction.

[Bill Dufour]

Since you work in a machine shop the joints might seem easy to you. You can do the mortises on a the Bridgeport. Do you have a shaper yet?
I do not understand why my windows were pine or fir but the brickmold and sill was redwood.
Bill D.

[Paul Girouard]

With todays wood, I would NOT recommend a all wood window. I’d go metal clad on the exterior , or fiberglass clad.

IF I did build a wood window , which I have done a few replacement window sash , I’d make it out of VG Fir , I’d then coat it with CEPS , and then apply a high quality exterior oil based paint to the exterior side. On the interior it could be stained or painted again with a oil based paint.

Today’s wood , even VG Fir is NOT the same quality as say 1960 and before.

[Cosmos Krejci]

I can't run wood in my VMC. No dust system. CNC router gets the wood parts. I wouldn't use pine... Just to do a couple, I don't think the wood cost will be much so I'd get hard wood. Local flake dude wanted to use poplar.

[Darcy Warner]

With todays wood, I would NOT recommend a all wood window. I’d go metal clad on the exterior , or fiberglass clad.

IF I did build a wood window , which I have done a few replacement window sash , I’d make it out of VG Fir , I’d then coat it with CEPS , and then apply a high quality exterior oil based paint to the exterior side. On the interior it could be stained or painted again with a oil based paint.

Today’s wood , even VG Fir is NOT the same quality as say 1960 and before.

Sugar pine, Sapele, WO, are a few good choices.

Anderson makes an all wood window, Kolbe may, many companies do.

Like I said, I know a great guy 70 miles outside of huston.

[Brian Henderson]

With todays wood, I would NOT recommend a all wood window. I’d go metal clad on the exterior , or fiberglass clad.

He can't, it's a historical district where he has to follow strict rules about what can and cannot be used.

[Mel Fulks]

Vertical grain fir is a fine material ,but not for sash. I have made sash of fir and the management made sure to really
up the price. You lose a lot of it in the "sticking " machining as it splits off. Real NE white pine (Pinus strobus) has proved its worth for sash in North and South since early 19th century. It's modern durability rating is "moderate" ,I've never liked the dipping treatments that are commonly used but solvent based copper naphthalate is good. But I've seen little rot on old NE pine.

[Cosmos Krejci]

Sugar pine, Sapele, WO, are a few good choices.

Anderson makes an all wood window, Kolbe may, many companies do.

Like I said, I know a great guy 70 miles outside of huston.


Anderson:
"Wood protected by Fibrex® composite exterior"

Or is it a fiberglass window with wood flair inserts?


Might be able to get away with it.

[Cosmos Krejci]

I know a great guy 70 miles outside of huston.

There are still a couple local sources I need to ping before asking guys to drive 3-4 hours to quote, but thanks. Just trying to get a handle on if I want to try myself. The upside is I learn a new skill and have reason to buy new tools! Table saw would be nice to have around. I sold my last one after I got the CNC router. At the time I needed the space, but ripping sheets on a CNC router is about ten times and complicated as it should be.

[Jim Morgan]

Are you going to be replacing the complete windows or just the sashes? If the latter, the existing thickness may constrain your glazing options. Most typically, sashes are 1 3/8" thick (most cope & stick bit sets are sized for this, though Amana makes a set that can be used with thicker material), which allows for a glass rabbet depth of only 9/16".

Poplar has little rot resistance, so would be a poor choice. For paint grade work, CVG Douglas first is fine, though has become expensive in recent years. For stain grade work, white oak or mahogany are common choices; with their open grain, however, these are not the best choices for work that will be painted.

In my experience fir is subject to tear out. Climb cutting the sticking profile solves that, but a power feeder is a good idea (if not an absolute necessity) for doing so safely.

One tricky part is the meeting rail where the top and bottom sashes come together. This may require that the bottom rail of the top sash be molded differently, without the interior profile. I forgot about this on the last set of sashes I made until I was ready to apply the ogee meeting rail pieces, had to cut the molded rails off & fit new, unmolded rails instead.

[Cosmos Krejci]

Are you going to be replacing the complete windows or just the sashes?

Good question. If the frames can be corrected to be square maybe that would reduce some work.

Here are a couple photos to give you an idea of the work.

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Sophie says open the window. I've managed to get a couple functioning, but they don't slide well at all.

[Tom M King]

I've fixed worse, but don't do estimates, or deadlines, so sorry, no help on contract price. The replacement, handblown cylinder glass was about $800 per window unit (both sash) for these, by the time shipping was paid from Germany. They were painted shut too, and some replacement parts needed. They operate better than they ever have now, and have hidden weatherstripping.

This house is also in a Historic District, but it's a museum house, and not a residence.

[Paul Girouard]

He can't, it's a historical district where he has to follow strict rules about what can and cannot be used.


I doubt that is true, if it is it’s extremely short sighted by the historic district board.

Do they demand Shake roofs, nothing burns better than shakes or has a shorter life span with all the other options in roofing today than Cedar Shakes!

[Richard Coers]

No one thinks precision woodworking is hard when they are typing on a computer. Buy a table saw, make a mortising fixture, but a router and make a router table, buy the router tooling, buy a Festool Domino and start making mortises. Go ahead and make one for the hell of it (after spending $4,000) and see how easy it is for you.

[Cosmos Krejci]

don't need wavy glass. Looking for double pane. the windows are very drafty. Our heating bill last winter was worse than when we lived in Iowa! Multiple issues, like they didn't insulate exterior walls in Texas in the 1920's, but the windows aren't helping matters. Thanks all for the advice! I will keep doing research, but seems doable at least on a couple.

[Tom M King]

I doubt that is true, if it is it’s extremely short sighted by the historic district board.

Do they demand Shake roofs, nothing burns better than shakes or has a shorter life span with all the other options in roofing today than Cedar Shakes!

Actually, wooden shingles last a long time if installed on purlins, so they can breathe. Here, Cypress shingles have lasted 150 years, more than a few times. The reason that the houses in Williamsburg were still standing when they started the restoration is that the remaining buildings had the original Cypress shingles on them, and varied in age around 150 years old.

On my website, there are some pictures of one we found under a Terne tin roof that had lasted 134 years, that would have been in good shape but for modern work done on the house, and a tree growing up against it on one side.

It's true though that Cedar shakes don't last any longer than anything else if installed according to the current recommended way. I have some on my house that I built in 1980, on purlins, that are still as good as when I installed them.

The term "shakes" is actually a modern term. Back when they were all made by hand, and even well into the machine age, they were always called "shingles".

If one is doing preservation, it needs to be done like it was originally. Otherwise, it's remodeling. Any Historic District I've ever had anything to do with was not very encouraging for remodeling.

Some parts of the country don't have a large fire danger just because of materials. No one would want a wooden roof on a house that burned a fireplace, and didn't clean out the chimney often. In early Philadelphia, there was a law requiring monthly chimney sweeping.

[Paul Girouard]

Good question. If the frames can be corrected to be square maybe that would reduce some work.

Here are a couple photos to give you an idea of the work.

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Sophie says open the window. I've managed to get a couple functioning, but they don't slide well at all.


Those all look repairable to me. I’ve repaired worse for sure.

If you don’t mind ending up with the existing windows , not insulated glass being the main down side , you should be able to restore those , which is a LOT more do-able than building new wood windows from scratch!

Theres also a company callex In-Dow their ads in Fine Home Building IIRC . That makes a storm
window that fits inside. Those would work with your “Histeric “ board better than storms on the exterior.

[Mel Fulks]

I don't see much value in double pane. Too much money to net R2. Then a few years out start replacing fogged panes.
I like weather sealing and curtains.

[Cosmos Krejci]

I doubt that is true, if it is it’s extremely short sighted by the historic district board.

Do they demand Shake roofs, nothing burns better than shakes or has a shorter life span with all the other options in roofing today than Cedar Shakes!

page 4.6 The blue box summarizes the section.

http://historicfairmount.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/fairmountdesignguidelines2014.pdf

People do whatever in the backyards. Front of the house cannot be altered in style at all. Side of the house seem to be a gray area. Our safest path is the stay 100% wood and keep the original style as much as possible. We could probably get away with partial wood. I redid our last porch with a bunch of Pella composite windows. The design had drain holes on the bottom side of the window frame for the rain! The bottom, meaning into your wall! So, I'm not real keen on what partial wood windows will be off the shelf. I'm guessing MDF and veneer like "hardwood" flooring at the big box stores. rant over.

[Cosmos Krejci]

No one thinks precision woodworking is hard when they are typing on a computer. Buy a table saw, make a mortising fixture, but a router and make a router table, buy the router tooling, buy a Festool Domino and start making mortises. Go ahead and make one for the hell of it (after spending $4,000) and see how easy it is for you.

I have a CNC router and I can stand them up to do the ends. I'm thinking I can do all that work on that machine, no? I was just going to pick up a table saw to get the blanks the right size.

[Paul Girouard]

Actually, wooden shingles last a long time if installed on purlins, so they can breathe. Here, Cypress shingles have lasted 150 years, more than a few times. The reason that the houses in Williamsburg were still standing when they started the restoration is that the remaining buildings had the original Cypress shingles on them, and varied in age around 150 years old.

On my website, there are some pictures of one we found under a Terne tin roof that had lasted 134 years, that would have been in good shape but for modern work done on the house, and a tree growing up against it on one side.

It's true though that Cedar shakes don't last any longer than anything else if installed according to the current recommended way. I have some on my house that I built in 1980, on purlins, that are still as good as when I installed them.

The term "shakes" is actually a modern term. Back when they were all made by hand, and even well into the machine age, they were always called "shingles".

If one is doing preservation, it needs to be done like it was originally. Otherwise, it's remodeling. Any Historic District I've ever had anything to do with was not very encouraging for remodeling.

Some parts of the country don't have a large fire danger just because of materials. No one would want a wooden roof on a house that burned a fireplace, and didn't clean out the chimney often. In early Philadelphia, there was a law requiring monthly chimney sweeping.



Shakes have been called Shake for many years : People confuse many things shakes and shingles are one.

All types of wood roofing applied to should be installed on what I was taught in the 1970’s as “skip sheathing “ which amounted to 1x4 boards installed with a 8 penny nail /2 1/2” space / between boards .

Purlins are structural roofing members.

With todays building codes they’ve come up with a matrix cloth to install about solid sheet goods used as roof sheathing , I doubt it works very well.

Cedar Shakes here in the PNW where common in the late 70’s , since the Spotted Owl outrage , where old growth forest and Cedar trees where taken off the you can cut them down list Cedar since say 1985 have become a joke in comparision to Cedar of the 1960’s.
Much like the Cyrpress you mentioned , my guess is even in the region Cypress grows , the trees they cut today are not comparable to those used at Colonial Williamsburg.

But shingle are sawn , shakes are spit. That’s the basic difference. One is thin , one if thicker. Shakes are sold as mediums and heavy’s based on thickness.

There more “difference’s” , but those are the main points.


A wood roof any where in CONUS in 2018 is a extremely poor choice of roofing material , for a variety of reasons.
IMO.


Types of shinglesEdit (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wood_shingle&action=edit&section=2)

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/3c/Tejuelas_Chilotas.png/310px-Tejuelas_Chilotas.png (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Tejuelas_Chilotas.png)Collage of different styles of wood shingles used in Chiloé architecture (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chilota_architecture).


The simplest form of wood shingle is a rectangle about 16 inches (41 cm) long. The sides and butt of a shingle are often irregular; the sides may taper and the butt may not be square with the sides. Shingles that have been processed so that the butt is square to the sides are called rebutted and re-squared or rebutted and re-jointed shingles, often abbreviated R&R.
Shingles and shakes may be tapered, straight, split or sawn and any combination of these except straight-tapered. Different species and quality of wood are used as are different lengths and installation methods. Shakes and shingles may also be treated with wood preservatives and fire retardants before or after installation.
ShakesEdit (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wood_shingle&action=edit&section=3)

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/96/Shakeroof.jpg/220px-Shakeroof.jpg (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Shakeroof.jpg)A shake roof in Romania


A shake is a basic wooden shingle made from split logs. Shakes have traditionally been used for roofing and siding applications around the world. Higher-grade shakes are typically used for roofing purposes, while the lower grades are used for siding. In either situation, properly installed shakes provide long-lasting weather protection and a rustic aesthetic, though they require more maintenance than some other more modern weatherproofing systems.
The term shake is sometimes used as a colloquialism for all wood shingles, though shingles are sawn rather than split. In traditional usage, "shake" refers to the board to which the shingle is nailed, not the shingle. Split wooden shingles are referred to as shag shingles.
Modern shinglesEdit (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wood_shingle&action=edit&section=4)

Modern wooden shingles, both sawn and split, continue to be made, but they differ from the historic ones. Modern commercially available shakes are generally thicker than the historic handsplit counterpart and are usually left "undressed" with a rough, corrugated surface. The rough-surface shake is often considered to be more "rustic" and "historic", but in fact this is a modern fashion.
Some modern shingles are produced in pre-cut decorative patterns, sometimes called fancy-cut shingles, and are available pre-primed for later painting. The sides of rectangular shingles may be re-squared and re-butted, which means they have been reworked so the sides are parallel and the butt is square to the sides. These are more uniform and are installed more neatly as a result.
Shingles are less durable than shakes, particularly in wet climates; shakes are finished with a drawknife or similar tool which leaves a smooth surface that resists water penetration, and this in turn slows the softening of wood by microorganisms. Also, the method of splitting shakes rather than sawing ensures only straight-grained pieces (which are much stronger and less likely to warp).

[Paul Girouard]

I have a CNC router and I can stand them up to do the ends. I'm thinking I can do all that work on that machine, no? I was just going to pick up a table saw to get the blanks the right size.


Simple answer to a simple question , NO.

[keith micinski]

1200 a window for a custom made wooden window doesn’t sound the least bit expensive at all and building wooden windows from scratch with no experience seems like a recipe to end up with a lot of knowledge on what not to do and sub par window sashes. Modern wood is a terrible exterior product compared to old growth wood and should never be used unless absolutely necessary. I would try using a more rot resisntent wood then pine or Douglas fir. Have a glass shop make a modern low e double pane panel and then build a frame and apply Muttons, this is your cheapest and easiest option. Probably not the best option but you have to make sacrifices to save money somewhere.

Historical committees are ridiculous by nature it seems but a good way to get around using a modern aluminum clad window that is still historically accurate is to tell them your existing wooden windows have lead paint on them and the lead time to source a replacement wooden window is unsafe to your family. Works here a lot now.

[Andrew Seemann]

I've done some storm windows and a picture window where I couldn't find anything new that fit for reasonable price. All were from eastern/northern white pine, The originals were white pine sapwood and they had lasted 100 years with poor maintenance, so I figured that new white pine would work just fine. As had been said, making windows isn't hard, but then it isn't exactly easy either. I seem to remember a lot of annoying math that was really easy to mess up.

Also, don't overlook how much work glazing is, especially since you probably need to use compound to match the look. If that can be subbed out, I would definitely recommend it. Glazing window after window of divided lights might just drive you bonkers.

[Darcy Warner]

Apparently not many here have actually worked on projects that are for historical buildings or houses.

There is usually some leeway, but not much.

I would rather have single glazed with a storm window than try to make insulated glass sashes.

[Paul Girouard]

Here’s some sash I’ve repaired, there’s a lot to just the sash without going into the window jamb itself. Part beads , sash weights , rollers for the sash weights , trap doors to remove the sash weights and or replace the sash cords.

There’s got to be 20 to 50 specific parts to a wood window jamb and the accompanying sash.
There are books written about window making , the old fashion way.



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I have more but they won’t help you much and the forums so slow at loading pictures it’s no worth it for me to post photo’s you really don’t need to see.

IF the windows you posted are the worst ones you have, and you have patients , and the time to deal with carefully disassembly , remaking specific parts it is possible you could pull it off.

[Mel Fulks]

And the thick glass unit makes for a thick sash that makes a huge off set that ruins the traditional double hung look on
both sides.

[Cosmos Krejci]

Simple answer to a simple question , NO.

Funny I've seen lots of guys show pictures of mortises they made on them. I don't see any features that can't be done.

[Cosmos Krejci]

I've done some storm windows and a picture window where I couldn't find anything new that fit for reasonable price. All were from eastern/northern white pine, The originals were white pine sapwood and they had lasted 100 years with poor maintenance, so I figured that new white pine would work just fine. As had been said, making windows isn't hard, but then it isn't exactly easy either. I seem to remember a lot of annoying math that was really easy to mess up.

Also, don't overlook how much work glazing is, especially since you probably need to use compound to match the look. If that can be subbed out, I would definitely recommend it. Glazing window after window of divided lights might just drive you bonkers.


I would CAD/CAM it up. I don't do much hand calcs these days unless I'm slapping together something temporary.

I thought you get get divided light with inserts between the panes.

The glazing gets painted. Not sure why I'd need something special there

Thanks

[Paul Girouard]

Funny I've seen lots of guys show pictures of mortises they made on them. I don't see any features that can't be done.

I don’t have one, cabinet shops we use have big CNC’s that don’t make any thing like wood window parts.

So maybe you have info I don’t have. A window making shop I’m sure has specialized tooling that would be CNC driven , but the machines our cabinet guys have which cost a 200K , would be worthless building a wood window part.

[Darcy Warner]

Sure, go ahead and make sashes with your TS and CNc.

Please just let us know how that worked out for you.
Especially if you are required to follow any guidelines due to a registry or what not.

Side note: wood roofing shingles last 50+ years if installed correctly on the correct substrate (skip sheeting).

[Paul Girouard]

I would CAD/CAM it up. I don't do much hand calcs these days unless I'm slapping together something temporary.

I thought you get get divided light with inserts between the panes.

The glazing gets painted. Not sure why I'd need something special there

Thanks


Divided lights with grids between the panes will not make you historic people happy.


The grids are flat, and they are sandwiched between panes by the glass company , who is a subcontractor to the windows companies.

Our Andersen sales rep claimed Andersen is one of the FEW window makers who has their own glass division . They stamp all their glass with their name. Most, if not all,if that sales rep knew what he was talking about , window companies outsource’s their glass to glass makers.

Historic districts like “true divided lites” , and making the parts, the muntins become large or over sized to work with the thermal glass thickness.



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[Paul Girouard]

Sure, go ahead and make sashes with your TS and CNc.

Please just let us know how that worked out for you.
Especially if you are required to follow any guidelines due to a registry or what not.

Side note: wood roofing shingles last 50+ years if installed correctly on the correct substrate (skip sheeting).


You’d be lucky to get twenty years here in the PNW, I’ve watched roofs come and go.

And shingles are not shakes, although both should be installed over skip sheathing. BUT today in the PNW you can’t build a house using skip sheathing , you’d have to sheath the roof trusses or rafters , then build another roof above it , and come up with some way to vent it to make the Cedar shingles or shake think they where on a roof where the attic was well ventilated which allows the Cedar to dry out from below.

The hoop jumps are super high, the matrix crap they sell doesn’t create the same conditions a pre 1990’s house attic could provide with skip sheathing.

[Paul Girouard]

https://static1.squarespace.com/static/56b74bc427d4bd8d3cff12f6/t/57ffd38f2994cab93018ba7f/1476383637445/historic_wood_windows_tip_sheet.pdf

[John TenEyck]

Good question. If the frames can be corrected to be square maybe that would reduce some work.

Here are a couple photos to give you an idea of the work.

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Sophie says open the window. I've managed to get a couple functioning, but they don't slide well at all.

Sophie says you can repair those windows. They don't look all that bad from your photos. It's a lot of work, but doable. Strip, sand, replace what wood needs to be. It's more effort than skill. New rope, seals, and stops, if needed, when you put them back in. If the sash joints are loose you will have to disassemble and reglue them. It takes a little finesse to find and remove the pins but paint grade allows for lots of sins along the way. You will learn a lot along the way, including exactly how they are made and be in a much better position to judge whether or not you are capable of making any that can't be saved or in communicating with someone else to make them should you choose to go that route.

John

[Paul Girouard]

That last post of mine, that seems to be a good info PDF , if it’s a good link. About windows in NE .
And by region of the country you’ll find different woods used , in the 1800 early 1900 shipping Eastern White Pine to Seattle , or VG Fir to Boston wasn’t the normal way things where done.

Down south Cypress , or SY Pine most likely where the choice of woods to use , as it was readily available.

I love Pine , but the stuff I get in the PNW isn’t Eastern White Pine, buy VG Fir , well it literally grows on trees around here.

So wood species used is going to greatly dependent on region.

[Paul Girouard]

Sophie says you can repair those windows. They don't look all that bad from your photos. It's a lot of work, but doable. Strip, sand, replace what wood needs to be. It's more effort than skill. New rope, seals, and stops, if needed, when you put them back in. If the sash joints are loose you will have to disassemble and reglue them. It takes a little finesse to find and remove the pins but paint grade allows for lots of sins along the way. You will learn a lot along the way, including exactly how they are made and be in a much better position to judge whether or not you are capable of making any that can't be saved or in communicating with someone else to make them should you choose to go that route.

John


Who is “Sophie”, is that a saying like “ Bob’s your uncle!” , or is Sophie a living breathing person?

[Chris Draper]

Disclaimer: I am currently employed by The Marvin Companies, Inc. as an IT manager.

If you haven't found a manufacturer of all wood windows than you haven't looked hard enough. Marvin does it. Anderson does it. Pella probably does it.

My wife is employed by the same company but she works as an Architectural Project Coordinator. She quotes jobs for historical projects all the time. It is very often the case that historical districts have a large amount of control on not just the aesthetics but the construction of windows and doors. Some things to consider.

The sash construction (if allowed) can either be ADL, actual divided light or SDL, simulated divided light. An ADL would be a sash constructed with several individual pieces of glass each divided by wood or some other material. This can be done with single pane glass or insulated glass. SDL is accomplished by creating a a sash with no dividers. Then the dividers (grills) are stuck on the inside and outside to create the same look of a divided sash. SDL would be less expensive if the historical district would allow it. You would not be able to tell the difference looking from the street. This can be done in an all wood window. Pine would be the least expensive option. Fir would be more. Oak, Cherry, and Mahogany are really going to be a bunch more money but Marvin will do it. If the frames are good and you want to just do replacement sash Marvin can do that.

If you buy from a manufacturer you are going to get a good warranty, probably 20 years. That is something to consider.

If you want to talk to a professional I would be happy to give you my wife's contact information.

I am an accomplished woodworker. I would buy manufactured windows.

[Cosmos Krejci]

the machines our cabinet guys have which cost a 200K , would be worthless building a wood window part.


I'm sure it is better at knocking out sheet goods for sure.

[Paul Girouard]

Disclaimer: I am currently employed by The Marvin Companies, Inc. as an IT manager.

If you haven't found a manufacturer of all wood windows than you haven't looked hard enough. Marvin does it. Anderson does it. Pella probably does it.

My wife is employed by the same company but she works as an Architectural Project Coordinator. She quotes jobs for historical projects all the time. It is very often the case that historical districts have a large amount of control on not just the aesthetics but the construction of windows and doors. Some things to consider.

The sash construction (if allowed) can either be ADL, actual divided light or SDL, simulated divided light. An ADL would be a sash constructed with several individual pieces of glass each divided by wood or some other material. This can be done with single pane glass or insulated glass. SDL is accomplished by creating a a sash with no dividers. Then the dividers (grills) are stuck on the inside and outside to create the same look of a divided sash. SDL would be less expensive if the historical district would allow it. You would not be able to tell the difference looking from the street. This can be done in an all wood window. Pine would be the least expensive option. Fir would be more. Oak, Cherry, and Mahogany are really going to be a bunch more money but Marvin will do it. If the frames are good and you want to just do replacement sash Marvin can do that.

If you buy from a manufacturer you are going to get a good warranty, probably 20 years. That is something to consider.

If you want to talk to a professional I would be happy to give you my wife's contact information.

I am an accomplished woodworker. I would buy manufactured windows.


Amen to the last sentence. BUT IF Cosmos windows he posted photo’s of are the worst of the bunch those seem repairable

[Bill Orbine]

$20k for 14 windows isn't out of line. But if you cut back and do 2 windows for one room, for example, you might be paying more per window. Set up charges per order, smaller lumber order, glass is cheaper by higher quantity, more shipping charges, blah, blah, blah. Pisses me off to quote a customer for a large job and then they decide to do a little at a time thinking that they can divide up the cost per job. I run into that situation time to time. No thank you, $20k is for 14 windows. If you want just two, maybe $1800.00 per window for the fabricator to make even money. Same goes for the guy installing it. Get the idea?

It is better to do them all at once so the windows maintain the same design and build standards. Same wood, same glass, same available hardware, blah blah blah. Otherwise, if you do another set windows down the road...maybe the hardware will not be available? Who knows?

[Tom M King]

I am only familiar with Southern Historical buildings, since those are what I make my living on. We're in the growing range for Southern Long Leaf Pine, which is what all the 18th, and 19th Century sash that I've worked on, or made replacements for were made from. It also follows the growing zone for Cypress, that any building in this zone, that lasted for any amount to time had roof shingles made from.

Both woods traveled some out of their growing zone, but only for wealthy homeowners, like George Washington. He specified "Carolina Pine" for siding, and Cypress for shingles.

Paul, I'm not trying to argue with you, but just call it as I've seen it around these parts. Horizontal supporting members under rafters were called Purloins, and the strips we fasten shingles to are called Purlins around here. Those are old terms, much like they called what we call today a "Hall" a "Passage". A Hall was typically the largest room intended for entertaining the public. It's no doubt that definitions for words change over time, but I tend to stick with the old terms. I've also heard Carl Lounsbury call them purlins, so I'm sticking with that.

About the only remaining, detailed specifications we have remaining from Colonial times, around here, are some of the different Vestry records, and people like George Washington, that kept very detailed records of everything. The word "shake" was never used, that I remember, and the only reference I can find in old architectural glossaries is that it carries two definitions. The first is a split, or fissure in a timber, and the second is a modern term for wooden split shingles.

Both the surface finish making a difference in longevity, and the original thickness of shingles has been taken mistakenly, more than with a proper understanding. I have a number of wooden shingles saved from houses, that were the roof on the house for over 100 years.

The bottom edge is indeed thin, but you can see where the row of shingles above the exposed part was because that part is not eroded away. The lower edge may now be 1/2" thick, but if you place a straight edge over the top of the shingle on the part that was covered by the row above, you will see where it projects over the eroded away exposed part, and it will typically be over 3/4" to 7/8". One large house I know of, built by Robert Byrd II had shingles still over an inch thick when they were torn off in the 1970's.

There have been many reproduction roofs made with shingles that match the butt thickness on the old eroded ones, evidently because the maker believed that's the way they were to start with. I have many pictures of those too, even on some famous houses. We make them as close to what we can figure was the original thickness.

I have a large enough sampling of these old shingles to be able to say that even though the back may have been shaped with a drawknife, the top would have been left straight.

Good wood is indeed hard, and expensive to source. To get good Cypress, the best source I've found (and no need to ask) is from some hoarders that keep it "for a good use" from trees that were removed back when new roads were built, before they were as careful as they are now about preserving the old trees.

Most Heart Pine is resawn from old industrial building beams, and knot free, nail hole free, tight grained stuff is very expensive when you can find it. The sash job on the window page on my website required a little over $75 worth of wood for each sash, and you know how small amount of wood that is.

When I'm making reproduction sash, even in good sized runs like for a whole house, there is still a fair amount of hand work required, so at most a couple can be made in a day once you have the wood in front of you. We even stick to the same size, and locations for the mortises, and tenons, and only make some modification when it's better for longevity, like the mortises where muntins, and glazing bars meet, that won't be seen in the finished product.

We also don't use glue. The old sash can be taken apart by driving the pegs out for repair 200 years later, so that design is hard to improve on, but leaves no margin for error on fit of mortises, and tenons.

This is a part of what I do for a living.

[Tom M King]

I thought about something else that I should have mentioned. Somewhere in this thread, it was recommended to install interior storm windows inside old single pane windows.

At Prestwould Plantation, they did this to, fortunately, a few of the windows. Water still condensed inside the old windows, and rotted out some of the original sash that had been in good shape before the interior storm windows were installed.

Another thing on single pane sash: If the inside is going to be painted, it's best to use exterior paint also on the interior side, because there will be solid water condensed at some time, and interior paint cannot withstand any amount of it.

[Paul Girouard]

No problem Tom, yes different regions surely call the same things different things.

Back east in RI where I’m from we called the board that follows the slope , or rake of the roof a rake board.

Out here in the PNW it’s called a barge board , some call it a verge board.

Another one is window stool , which of course in what most people call a sill , the flat generally projecting board on the inside of a window. The sill is outside of the window.

Like one mans “best wood” , is probably dependent on region of the country as to what is the “best wood for use “X”?

Been a interesting thread I think , and I didn’t mean to twist your knickers, I tend to do that as I sort of deal in what can be precieved as absolutes I guess. Mission oriented , some times to much so.

But I’ve enjoyed this thread, generally things are not this fast happening on this forum , it can take a week to get this many responses , so it’s a popular subject it seems.

[Andrew Seemann]

Most Heart Pine is resawn from old industrial building beams, and knot free, nail hole free, tight grained stuff is very expensive when you can find it. The sash job on the window page on my website required a little over $75 worth of wood for each sash, and you know how small amount of wood that is.


Window quality wood ain't cheap. The white pine I use for storms is about the same cost as white oak for the same thickness. I use the pine because it is easier to find pieces with straight enough grain and it is lighter, an important consideration when putting in a storm while standing on a ladder.

[Tom M King]

No worries Paul. I just thought I should clear it up a bit, and someone might get something out of it.

Andrew, Nothing down here is built from White Pine. While I hear there are more flies, gnats, and mosquitoes up there, I'm pretty sure we have termites working longer hours down here.

The first old house I worked on, in 1977, was built in 1777. It was sitting on 3 foot cubes of Heart Cypress directly on the sandy ground. They had eroded away some, but had absolutely no damage from insects. That same house had an untreated set of rear steps. Termites ate the steps, and continued up to feast on most of the large, one piece corner post of the house structure.

[Mel Fulks]

There are probably more sash in North Carolina made of heart southern yellow pine than in Virginia. The NE white pine was "imported " into VA. Maybe not used as much in NC. Yes, I'm sure it's less durable than SYP. But it lasts well enough
and works beautifully. I consider the NE pine better than sugar pine since it has less pitch to bleed through the paint.

[Tom M King]

The growing range for Southern Long Leaf Pine only goes a few miles North of the Va./N.C. line, near where I live. I think it may go a little farther North more towards the coast. We're right at the transition from Piedmont, to Coastal Plain, so have a fairly sandy top soil, but just a few miles West, and North from here, there is no more sandy soil. SLLP needs sandy soil.

[Andrew Seemann]

Winter does keep the termites at bay here.

Old (prewar) houses here will have white pine for sashes, and most of the external trim. Turn of the century houses had pine siding also. It lasts fine here if is is maintained. Up until about WW2, they were still harvesting the virgin pine forests from northern MN, so it was kind of the local go-to wood. It is probably why Andersen and Marvin started here, and Pella isn't that far south.

One of the global warming fears that doesn't come up much is the effect of the termite line moving north. It could have millions, even billions of dollars of impact. Nothing up here, at least nothing old, is made remotely termite proof.

[lowell holmes]

I think that would be a fun project. I would build one sash to see how to do it. After developing the technique go for it.
I have made my three pane front door and my single pane back door. I had to buy plate glass for the single pane door.
I used leaded glass panels on the front door that I had from the old door.

[Cosmos Krejci]

Sophie says you can repair those windows. They don't look all that bad from your photos. It's a lot of work, but doable. Strip, sand, replace what wood needs to be. It's more effort than skill. New rope, seals, and stops, if needed, when you put them back in. If the sash joints are loose you will have to disassemble and reglue them. It takes a little finesse to find and remove the pins but paint grade allows for lots of sins along the way. You will learn a lot along the way, including exactly how they are made and be in a much better position to judge whether or not you are capable of making any that can't be saved or in communicating with someone else to make them should you choose to go that route.

John


Thanks for the advice


Who is “Sophie”, is that a saying like “ Bob’s your uncle!” , or is Sophie a living breathing person?

Sophie is the kitty in the picture. She wants me to open the window for improved bird viewing. There is a screen. We get a little of the desert effect here: it can be really cold at night, then hot during the day. Texas sun is intense!

[Paul Girouard]

Thanks for the advice



Sophie is the kitty in the picture. She wants me to open the window for improved bird viewing. There is a screen. We get a little of the desert effect here: it can be really cold at night, then hot during the day. Texas sun is intense!

Ah , she’s a pretty cat , I showed her to my wife, we are not cat people , but if we had a cat I’d pick one with her coloring!

[Cosmos Krejci]

Disclaimer: I am currently employed by The Marvin Companies, Inc. as an IT manager.

If you haven't found a manufacturer of all wood windows than you haven't looked hard enough. Marvin does it. Anderson does it. Pella probably does it.

.....

I am an accomplished woodworker. I would buy manufactured windows.


Anderson does not. They are composite/wood. Pella does not. I will check out Marvin, thanks for the tip.

Dude here posted a nice pdf. It says there is an epidemic of companies trying to help but doing the opposite. The companies you list are probably one and the same.


https://static1.squarespace.com/static/56b74bc427d4bd8d3cff12f6/t/57ffd38f2994cab93018ba7f/1476383637445/historic_wood_windows_tip_sheet.pdf

[Cosmos Krejci]

Thanks everyone for the help!

[Paul Girouard]

Thanks everyone for the help!

I’d say thanks for starting the thread 61 posts in one day , gotta be a record for SMC! Assuming you started it today , maybe it was yesterday evening and I noticed it today???
Lot of good info here.

[Jim Becker]

Hah! I'll make it 63...

I'm with Chris...I'm a reasonably skilled woodworker and this is a job I'd have someone else do because of the complexity in "getting it right" so things function properly combined with the critical over-watch that is the nature of dealing with historic structures in an area that pays attention to the same. I've actually considered building new windows for the 250 year old portion of our home as the originals are unusable (relative to opening/closing) and single pane glass that required me to get creative to help with HVAC efficiency. But I thought better of doing the work myself. ;)

[Paul Girouard]

OK , 64.

Here’s the link to the storms that go inside:

https://indowwindows.com/custom-storm-windows/standard-grade/

[Chris Draper]

Anderson does not. They are composite/wood. Pella does not. I will check out Marvin, thanks for the tip.

Dude here posted a nice pdf. It says there is an epidemic of companies trying to help but doing the opposite. The companies you list are probably one and the same.

I stand corrected. I made assumption that our competitors were still making all wood windows. It appears that they do not. Marvin absolutely does. Kolbe absolutely does.

I read the PDF you posted. I guess I would choose insulated efficient windows for the same reason I put insulation in the walls. Windows and doors are your single biggest loss of heating and cooling in a building.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

I redid our last porch with a bunch of Pella composite windows. The design had drain holes on the bottom side of the window frame for the rain! The bottom, meaning into your wall! .

If those drain into the wall, I think the flashing is being installed incorrectly.

[Paul Girouard]

If those drain into the wall, I think the flashing is being installed incorrectly.

Steve is right, the holes you see in the window track drain water into a cavity and out weep holes in the bottom edge of the window exterior frame.

You do need to , or should, use flashing tape that’s compatible with your house wrap, in your case it appears your house is sided , so you’d be removing the old windows and installing the new ones, but there still is a way to properly flash and tape a window.

These where some nad busters to set!



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[Paul Girouard]

I stand corrected. I made assumption that our competitors were still making all wood windows. It appears that they do not. Marvin absolutely does. Kolbe absolutely does.

I read the PDF you posted. I guess I would choose insulated efficient windows for the same reason I put insulation in the walls. Windows and doors are your single biggest loss of heating and cooling in a building.

We use a fair amount of Marvin windows , last year we used the Marvin Integrity line, metal clad exteriors, like I said earlier using a wood exterior window , to me , is folly!

Are you a rep for Anacortes Washington area??

Here’s a thirty year old Pella , metal clad, still rotten, but it is 30 + years old and a beach house, it was the only one , of twenty or so on that side of the house.




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[Cosmos Krejci]

I’d say thanks for starting the thread 61 posts in one day , gotta be a record for SMC! Assuming you started it today , maybe it was yesterday evening and I noticed it today???
Lot of good info here.

I really appreciate all the input, positive and negative. I haven't been by this site in a while, but I'm amazed at all the expertise here. I think I posted it this morning. Thanks for all the advice!

Had dinner with the boss (wife). I think we concluded we can't ditch the muntins and that might kill hopes of double pane. Dude who quoted 20k said he will do a couple rooms and not the whole house. He seems to be a straight shooter. However, after looking at the windows more, they're not in that bad shape and I'd feel pretty bad hauling them off. So, dude's windows probable need to be pretty magical for us to go that route. Signs seem to pointing towards repair. We also need screens and something for insulation. Storm windows are an option but don't look very good. However, that would be better than tearing out some 100 year old sashes and replacing with something that also doesn't look great.

Do it myself remake from scratch: it the muntins that hang me up. We have some windows that are divided top and bottom. Just seems like a ton of work. I'm not sure I'm not going to try, but if we go the repair route, that seems doable. Still more to figure out but this thread has given us a ton of information. Thanks all.

[Jeff Bartley]

Cosmos,

I do this for a living like others here and the pictures you have shown are not windows that I would replace! Looks to me like they just need some TLC.

If painted shut buy a tool called a 'window zipper'. It will aid in cutting the paint which is most likely keeping them closed. Buy good sash cord. Buy Sarco type m glazing compound. Buy a lead paint test kit. If you find you have lead paint learn how to safely remove it.

Do a room at a time. Window restoration work is really time consuming and very specialized these days. But for some it's pretty satisfying work so why not try it before deciding to throw away perfectly good sash?

[Paul Girouard]

I really appreciate all the input, positive and negative. I haven't been by this site in a while, but I'm amazed at all the expertise here. I think I posted it this morning. Thanks for all the advice!

Had dinner with the boss (wife). I think we concluded we can't ditch the muntins and that might kill hopes of double pane. Dude who quoted 20k said he will do a couple rooms and not the whole house. He seems to be a straight shooter. However, after looking at the windows more, they're not in that bad shape and I'd feel pretty bad hauling them off. So, dude's windows probable need to be pretty magical for us to go that route. Signs seem to pointing towards repair. We also need screens and something for insulation. Storm windows are an option but don't look very good. However, that would be better than tearing out some 100 year old sashes and replacing with something that also doesn't look great.

Do it myself remake from scratch: it the muntins that hang me up. We have some windows that are divided top and bottom. Just seems like a ton of work. I'm not sure I'm not going to try, but if we go the repair route, that seems doable. Still more to figure out but this thread has given us a ton of information. Thanks all.



Look at the Indows link around post 63 or 64.

[Tom M King]

Google Prestwould Plantation They don't have a website, or email address that I know of, but probably have a phone number listed. They have experience with interior storm windows that you probably want to hear about before deciding to use interior storm windows.

I have a page about sash glazing on my website too, but can't be linked to here because it would violate some advertising clause. It should be listed somewhere if you click on my user name here. I've tried all the glazing compounds available over several decades. My preferred method is not the one you will want to use to get the windows back in quickly. It's the fastest in overall least time on a sash, but requires a long waiting time that depends on having other stuff to work on for weeks. I have a lot of pictures that I really should update that page with, but haven't had time to work on the website in years, and its accumulated a bunch of formatting errors in the meantime.

You might find the easel seen in some of the pictures worth cobbling together though. It makes glazing, and painting much easier, and more comfortable. I suggest Aquaglaze for quick turnaround, and paint with Sherwin-Williams Emerald exterior, inside, and out.

[brent stanley]

Speaking of wood windows and durability, does anyone here have any experience with Accoya for windows? It's quite common in Europe. 50 year guarantee above ground, 70 year "service life" whatever that means! Doesn't seem too common over here,

B

[Mel Fulks]

I don't have anything against Marvin stuff but unless they have made a change they use ponderosa white pine and as said earlier I think there are better pines. And I have seen some elliptical stuff that was so lopsided that they required a template for EACH side to make casing that would fit.

[Darcy Warner]

I thought about something else that I should have mentioned. Somewhere in this thread, it was recommended to install interior storm windows inside old single pane windows.

At Prestwould Plantation, they did this to, fortunately, a few of the windows. Water still condensed inside the old windows, and rotted out some of the original sash that had been in good shape before the interior storm windows were installed.

Another thing on single pane sash: If the inside is going to be painted, it's best to use exterior paint also on the interior side, because there will be solid water condensed at some time, and interior paint cannot withstand any amount of it.

Storm windows go on the outside. Ones on the inside are basically pointless for one of their main functions, protecting the sashes.

[Ben Zara]

Cosmos,

I live in a rivertown on the Hudson river outside NYC, the rules here regarding exterior modifications can be absurd so I feel your pain.

However, that flyer you posted does not matter. Go and speak with the building department and the architectural review board or whatever they call it in Texas. If the wood is going to be painted/keep the pre-existing, you should argue that it doesn't matter if the window is made of modern materials or cedar or whatever

Most of the time, as long as you can keep the same look, they should not mind if you modernize it a bit. Having someone in this day and age make weighted windows (which I have in my house) seems like a real waste of money.

Go downtown and talk to the peeps in power and feel em out for how crazy they are before you make any decisions. And again, it don't matter what the rules are, that's why god invented variances.

[Joe Calhoon]

Finally took the time to read through this thread. Lots of interesting viewpoints. I make wooden windows and doors for a living. (Only about half time now)
There are a lot of acceptable ways to approach this. Talking to the building Or historic department first is good advice. We do some historic window in Telluride where they are very strict. Mostly about how it looks from the street. This side of the mountain not so fussy.

We have always been customer driven and most high dollar customers do not want the hassle of storm windows so almost all our double hung work uses IGU. Storm sash- single pane is OK though in the old buildings. Old buildings are not tight and not highly heated or cooled. The minute you put heat and better insulation with single pane will cause condensation problems. IGU from certain mfgs is getting better.

Wood choice is important. Mahogany, white oak and VG fir are my favorites. Fir is not very rot resistant though. Ponderosa pine is the worst and as mentioned the big window companies using this is what has given wood windows a bad reputation in the US. I have used a little Accoya and like that. Hard to get here though.

The OP may want to check out a thread on the OWWM where a woodworker made historic replacement sash using only router cutters. Like I said a lot of ways to approach this.

Double hung is not a large part of the business. I use the UK model with double gaskets, sash set up for IG and weight and chain. These end up costing more than the tilt turn windows we build but in historic renovation will give good thermal and sound values.
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[Joe Calhoon]

Here is a interesting link from the UK
https://windows.bwf.org.uk/

[brent stanley]

Thanks for weighing in Joe. Lots of Accoya being used in Europe these days, but relatively few suppliers over here. It's expensive over there, but do you recall the raw material prices you paid where you are? I have a few feelers out in my neck of the woods.

Thanks again,

B

[Joe Calhoon]

Brent,
when I bought it was about $5 per Bdf. About the same as mahogany. All the Accoya I have seen here has dark streaks running through it making it unsuitable for stain grade. By contrast all the Accoya I have seen in European shops is consistent white color. I asked a rep over there about this and he had no idea.
National in Denver used to stock it but now only in their California branch. I need to check with some other suppliers.

[brent stanley]

Brent,
when I bought it was about $5 per Bdf. About the same as mahogany. All the Accoya I have seen here has dark streaks running through it making it unsuitable for stain grade. By contrast all the Accoya I have seen in European shops is consistent white color. I asked a rep over there about this and he had no idea.
National in Denver used to stock it but now only in their California branch. I need to check with some other suppliers.

Thanks Joe, there's a bit of a saga regarding Accoya production in NA and I don't believe it was considered as good as the product produced in the Netherlands. Do you know the origins of the product you used? It shows promise and I'd like to try the good stuff, I just hope I don't have to buy a container load!

https://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com/article/the-rise-and-fall-of-a-miracle-wood

Thanks again,

B

[Jack Cadwell]

Hey all,
I have an old house in a historic district, so windows have to be 100% wood. The existing windows are single pane, not square, don't seal and many are painted and caulked completely shut. We got one guy who we thought could do it, but he turned out to be a flake and never got hard numbers. We just got another quote that was 20k for 14 windows for double pane and dividers/muntins on the tops of most of them. Seemed pretty high to me. The econmy down here for remodel and construction is pretty frisky, so it's hard to get good work out of contractors because there is a ton of demand.
Up to this point, I've wanted to pay someone to do this work, but for 20k, I'm rethinking. We actually just want to redo a room or two, which was mentioned but not quoted (entire house only)
I've got construction experience (mostly framing) and some wood working experience, mostly on a CNC router. How hard of a project do you think this would be to take on? My tools are CNC router, bandsaw, miter saw. I would pick up a table saw.

Thanks in advance for the advice.


I have been building windows for old buildings 35 years.
Copying what you have is great, but consider saving what you have first. It's easier than making new sash if you don't have a mortiser, tenoner, shaper, custom cutters, experience choosing and milling wood specifically for sash, and other people to work with. Also, sash made before 1978 have lead paint in them, which is a great wood preservative. Look up John Leeke's Historic Homeworks web site for more information on saving your sash.

I work in historic districts regularly. In New England, we use exterior aluminum storms. Preservationists, museums, and state historic preservation organizations have learned that exterior storms preserve the historic fabric of a building, instead of forcing people to replace sash every 20 years as they rot.

A good place to start would be with https://www.windowpreservationalliance.org/ . There are members in Texas, and they would also know who makes wooden windows near you.

Jack

[Jim Andrew]

A city near here has a historic district, and someone bought one of the homes hoping to use it for a business, the district would not allow anything the owner wanted to do, so the owner just let the house fall apart, it was then condemned, and torn down. Then the owner built a new building that "fits in" with the original buildings, but with modern materials. It has clad windows, hardy board siding, and smart trim, but looks like an old house.

[Darcy Warner]

A city near here has a historic district, and someone bought one of the homes hoping to use it for a business, the district would not allow anything the owner wanted to do, so the owner just let the house fall apart, it was then condemned, and torn down. Then the owner built a new building that "fits in" with the original buildings, but with modern materials. It has clad windows, hardy board siding, and smart trim, but looks like an old house.

Sometimes they are their own worst enemy.

[Patrick Perry]

You might take a look at this storm window manufacturer for historic windows:

https://alliedwindow.com/index.html

I had considered them as an option for my building though have so far done nothing.

I'm very close to building 3 new windows for the front of my 1880s building, just haven't bought the shaper cutter set yet. I have spent a lot of time studying this task, and think you will be getting in to way more than you realize if you don't have a lot of woodworking experience. As has been said, it is not difficult per se, but there is more to it than appears. If you use a shaper definately get a power feeder. I do not, but am making a coping jig for this task and being especially careful in my setup to cut the thin muntins.

[marlin adams]

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