mortise first or tenon first

[Jim Colombo]

Which should I do first, the mortise or the tenon?

Thanks,
Jim

[Prashun Patel]

Whichever is harder for you to adjust is what you should cut first.


For me, I prefer to mortise first then do the tenon.

[Andrew Seemann]

Typically I do the mortise first, because it is easier to size and adjust the tenon than the mortise. For convenience, I like to size the mortise to one of my chisels or a shade larger.

[steven c newman]

And, I do the tenons first.....just because it works better for me...tenons are sized to the width of the chisel I would be using...YMMV

[Jim Koepke]

Do it in the order it is said, mortise & tenon. Otherwise we would probably call it tenon & mortise.

jtk

[Derek Cohen]

Do it in the order it is said, mortise & tenon. Otherwise we would probably call it tenon & mortise.

jtk

:)

Mortice first for me. I mark both mortice and tenon with the same gauge, and expect that they will fit from them. However, sometimes you need to widen it slightly (if there is reason to straighten it).

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Frederick Skelly]

Whichever is harder for you to adjust is what you should cut first.


For me, I prefer to mortise first then do the tenon.

+1 on both points.

[ken hatch]

Do it in the order it is said, mortise & tenon. Otherwise we would probably call it tenon & mortise.

jtk

JIM,

My chuckle for the day. As good a reason as any for something that makes no never mind,

ken

[Jessica de Boer]

I always do the mortise first because it's easier to adjust the tenon.

[James Pallas]

Which should I do first, the mortise or the tenon?

Thanks,
Jim
Equally well either way.
Jim

[Kory Cassel]

Only matters if you absolutely need to cut one first to figure out the lay-out for the other. My go to is mortise first to use chisel width for size.

[Paul Bent]

It's easier to make a tenon larger than a mortise smaller.

[Kory Cassel]

It's easier to make a tenon larger than a mortise smaller.
I would say it's easier to trim the tenon smaller or pare the mortise larger. LOL Which method are you advocating?

[Simon MacGowen]

Do it in the order it is said, mortise & tenon. Otherwise we would probably call it tenon & mortise.

jtk

It is M&T, not T&M, because someone knew the order of the letters in the alphabet! :D

Simon

[Phil Gaudio]

I would say it's easier to trim the tenon smaller or pare the mortise larger. LOL Which method are you advocating?

I think he is saying that once you mess up the mortise/tenon fit, its easier to come back and, for example, glue a shaving on to the tenon cheek then to make the mortise narrower.
I think in general, for a mortise made with a mortise chisel and a hand sawn tenon, most folks would advocate doing the mortise first to define the the thickness of tenon you are shooting for. I saw my tenons a little fat and dial in the fit with a router plane. It yields tenon cheeks that are perfectly co-planer to the workpiece. That sort of precision is more difficult to obtain inside a tenon excavation.

[Simon MacGowen]

Which should I do first, the mortise or the tenon?

Thanks,
Jim

If you have strong chiselling and sawing skills, it does not matter. If you are lousy at chiselling and sawing (like a beginner), mortise first as you can saw and oversize the tenon, and use a hand router to finish the cheeks for a snug fit. You can use a chisel or shoulder plane instead of a router plane, if you have the know-how.

Those who cut tenons first and succeed given the same amount of time for the task have stronger skills or deeper experience (for that particular joint), period.

Simon

[steven c newman]

I use the completed tenon, to lay out and chop the mortise.....I can then fit the two together for a better fit...

(then again...I do pins first, as well)

Have tried the other way around,,,,always wound up with a tenon that was way too loose. Went tenons first, and the fit was 100% easier to do.

[Brian Holcombe]

Mortises first in the case where the mortises are more difficult.

Tenons first in the case where the tenons are more difficult.

Plain mortise and tenon can be fairly straightforward, but a careful approach not guided by doctrine can be helpful when processing joints such as:

- Fully-shouldered and haunched double mortise and tenon.
- Angled, offset and housed mortise and tenon.
- Mitered top double bridle joints.

More important is to think about creating references, working off of references and maintaining your references as your proceed. What do when a reference needs to be cut-away at, etc.

[Edwin Santos]

All that really matters is that you make one of each.

Seriously, it would cost no more than a little bit of your time to try it both ways and see if one way feels right for you.

[Hasin Haroon]

I do tenons first, as I don't really measure my tenons and waste in terms of numbers - I just mark them out based on what works for the given purpose and thickness, and then repeat the same measurements on my mortise piece (i.e. don't change the setting on the marking gauge and mark the mortises out afterwards). I find this to be an easy way if you don't rely on exact measurements but rather rely on repeatability.

[chris carter]

I used to do mortises first, but now I do the tenon first and just leave the non-reference side a hair thick. Then I do the mortise and I can shave down the tenon for final fit. Seems to work faster for me and winds up being more accurate.

[William Fretwell]

Generally I do the mortise first. When using Ray Isles pig stickers the mortise is pre-determined so made first. Same is true for other mortise chisels. You then pare the tenon to a precise fit. Where the chisel size does not determine the mortise size (typically larger mortises) you can do it either way.

The very large trestles for my bench determined the mortise size, which needed to be a bit sloppy so they were cut second and needed much adjustment, quite a pain and not easy. So in almost every case cut the mortise first and buy some pig stickers to make your life easy!

[James Pallas]

R
Mortises first in the case where the mortises are more difficult.

Tenons first in the case where the tenons are more difficult.

Plain mortise and tenon can be fairly straightforward, but a careful approach not guided by doctrine can be helpful when processing joints such as:

- Fully-shouldered and haunched double mortise and tenon.
- Angled, offset and housed mortise and tenon.
- Mitered top double bridle joints.

More important is to think about creating references, working off of references and maintaining your references as your proceed. What do when a reference needs to be cut-away at, etc.

Those and others also
seat rail to rear leg on some chairs, angled and twisted
breadboards in some cases
small twin tenons
always good to be confident doing either way.
Jim

[Charles Guest]

This will happen to you and when it does you'll be glad that this video was posted. This isn't for those whose mortises are always perfect. :rolleyes:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XhtD14Qn5pM


(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XhtD14Qn5pM)

[Tom Bender]

Like Hasin it's T&M joints for me. Size the shoulder first, leaving the tenon as big as practical for maximum strength. This is used to mark and test fit the mortise as is is made.

[Jim Koepke]

For myself and maybe others, it is easy to go with making the mortise to the size of the chisel used and then cutting the tenon to fit.

For the folks who do the tenon first it might help the rest of us understand by knowing your procedure of making mortises to match a tenon.

jtk

[steven c newman]

Simple...I use the tenon itself to lay out where, and what size mortise I need to make...

[Jim Koepke]

Simple...I use the tenon itself to lay out where, and what size mortise I need to make...

Somehow my few attempts at doing this ended up with a poor fitting joint. The easiest answer to what went wrong is likely my procedure of getting the tenon to register to the position of the mortise was at fault.

Though thinking about it, if my project calls for a lot of mortices, a test tenon is made to check and if needed adjust the mortises before any tenons are cut.

jtk

[James Pallas]

The reason I said either way is that at times it is more difficult to do one way or the other. Mortises that are at an angle to a face but the reveal has to be accurate ie. it’s nice to know that your not going to be befuddled by rules like mortise first. To be confident that you can cut accurately most of the time is more important. If your worrying about fixing something before you do it isaccepting that the process is going to fail. I usually cut flush M&T mortise first. With a reveal I tend to cut tenon first and use a spacer for the reveal. If you do mortise first you need two gauges or have to reset the gauge. When angle mortise is involved I do tenons first also. No, all my joinery doesn’t fit “right off the saw” but what does not I can usually fix easily. If not I make another piece. I just can’t seem to get myself to cut things fat on purpose. I can do that without purpose.
Jim

[steven c newman]

Maybe read through the last build thread of mine? LOTS of M&T work.....all done tenon first....
398093
Laid out, by tracing around the tenon...apron was laid down to help with the lay out.
398094
Chopped..trying to leave the lines..
398095
Test fit. Usually wind up tapping the two together with the mallet...
Lay out?
May do a little "Show & Tell" next time I am in the shop.....
398106
Usually have all the tenons made up....
398107
I will lay the location out using the tenon for that spot. Lay it along the edge, to mark how far from the top it will be, and the length to the bottom edge of the tenon..two line across. Sit the tenon at the top of ( in this case, a leg) to center the tenon...or wherever the tenon needs to be...2 more lines. Mark all 4 lines through.. with a square. Goal is to leave the lines when chopping....then it can be adjusted after the mortise is chopped out....usually, the fit is a tad tight..trim the spots needing trimmed for a good snug fit..
398108
To the point things will stay together, on their own...
398109

[steven c newman]

Grandson wants a Coffee Table built for Christmas.....so..I will do a little bit of Show & Tell then....

In photo #5...look at the very top of the leg....you will see two marks. These are for the width of the tenon, and where it will be as to centered.

[Hasin Haroon]

Most of my projects involving mortise and tenons involve pieces that are flush to each other i.e. the offset of the tenon is equal to the offset of the mortise from the front view. So I cut my tenons, and use the same setting on the mortise gauge to mark out the mortise on the other piece...works well enough for me, but I'm definitely not at the same level as some others here who have commented and said mortise first, so bear that in mind...

[Derek Cohen]

Most of my projects involving mortise and tenons involve pieces that are flush to each other i.e. the offset of the tenon is equal to the offset of the mortise from the front view. So I cut my tenons, and use the same setting on the mortise gauge to mark out the mortise on the other piece...works well enough for me, but I'm definitely not at the same level as some others here who have commented and said mortise first, so bear that in mind...

Hassim, at first read, your sequence makes sense. One can simply saw the tenon, and as long as the sides of the cheek are square and parallel, then move directly to the mortice. However, it will come down to how you make the mortice. If chopping with a mortice chisel, you may not have a suitable size/width blade to dig out the width of the tenon - the beauty of a mortice chisel is that it does this all-in-one. With your sequence, I would expect to be paring the sides of the mortice, which is extra work.

Going mortice first, the worst that can happen is that you chop slightly off-square, and then need to square up with paring. At this point it is easier to fit the tenon by sawing it to the required width.

Regards from Perth

Derek