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Seth Terndrup
11-29-2018, 8:49 PM
I was just trying to carve a spoon and I realized I really struggle with the, maybe say, visual art component of woodworking.

Anytime I have to carve or make a curve or anything other than what I can measure, I just don’t feel comfortable and it turns out like I remember my “paintings” in elementary school.

I have never been able to draw, and I have a hard time visualizing creative art. I play music which in a lot of ways can be very mathematical and contained, if you will. (I don’t play jazz ;)

Anyway, just wanted to get that off my chest and hear if anybody else can relate. I would love to hear if anybody got over that hurdle?

Kyle Foster
11-29-2018, 8:56 PM
I too am interested in this. I think that perhaps it is just one of those things that comes natural to some people, but like almost everything else, it can be learned.

Bruce Page
11-29-2018, 9:12 PM
I can strongly relate. Geometric or mechanical type designs have always come easy to me. Original, free flowing, artsy designs are difficult. I admire and envy people that can create “art”. We have many here, particularly in the turners forum that have this gift. I’m not one of them. :(

Andrew Hughes
11-29-2018, 9:13 PM
I think for me the creative process is a attitude it has nothing to do with intelligent or knowing something.
It starts with curiosity with this energy you try to make to the next surprise.
I’m also ok with breaking any project at anytime into little pieces.
My good friend who’s a great painter has told me if your trying to make money at your craft your not making making art.
So pick one you cannot serve two masters.
Good Luck

Kory Cassel
11-29-2018, 9:20 PM
I'm in the same boat. I think it's got something to do with being able to sense when you're about to remove wood that you want to keep. Like visualization of the finished surface under the wood and instead of trying to cut straight to it, removing the largest amount possible in every facet tangent to the surface until you've got a multi-faceted but very close shape that you can blend down gracefully. That's my understanding of how it's supposed to work, but I'm also one of those people who need a template or some kind of guide to end up with fair curves or anything visually pleasing.

al heitz
11-29-2018, 9:37 PM
Flat work designs that I can measure out with a pencil and ruler, or glue or trace a template - ok. Three dimensional spatial relationships (example, carving in the round and relief carving) - have a difficult time with. Reading plans - have to work it out and feel it as I go; trial by error. It's like reading sheet music - it only gives me an idea of the direction of the pitch, but true pitch depends on sound and muscle memories from practice.

John K Jordan
11-29-2018, 11:09 PM
Seth,

I think a lot of what is called creativity can be developed through effort. I'm not sure I believe in inherent talent in art There is an incredible book that makes a good argument about how excellence is mostly effort and practice: "Talent is Overrated" https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1591842948

When I was young, I think I was very fortunate my parents insisted on piano lessons for all of us. I dutifully worked my way through the agony of beginning lessons into classical music. I was awful at piano for the longest time. Most was somewhat as you said, mathematical and invariant. It wasn't until my teacher told me one day that the written timing and expression was really just suggestions that I was able to open up a little - she said to learn to play it the way it was written then experiment a little. Later, I found a teacher who taught improvisational hymn playing - how to decompose the written music into the chords then improvise everything but the melody. Now that is most of what I do - improvise, so relaxing. I still force myself to play some classics and work on technique, but the free playing is what I love the most! (I have an, ahem, "interesting" jazzy/blues version of Amazing Grace! It's different every time.)

Our parents also encouraged us to draw, paint, play with clay, read, nail things together, and listen to music. (We had a radio and record player growing up but no TV.)

I think the graphic arts are the same as the music. When in grade school in the 50s the teachers had fixed things for us to do - everyone was supposed to cut this, draw that, think inside "the box", color and stay inside the lines. A home I learned the joy of sketching. I know a number of fantastic artists and they all have the same trait - they sketch constantly. They might sketch on paper with pencil, with their hands in clay, with a trumpet, on music paper or recorder, with a still/video camera, with the gouge on the lathe. It's practice, practice for control of lines and shapes, then looking and sketching - first copying then trying variations, then imagining and sketching. An artist and student from Italy stayed with us this summer - every museum we visited she would look and look and then I'd find her sitting for 1/2 hour sketching something in her little book. Sometimes she would ask me to take photographs so she could continue sketching later.

I think keeping a sketch book is key, at least for me. For woodturning and carving I have sketch books where I make lots of sketches, variations of things I might want to make. Most are so-so, some are pretty bad, some are keepers. Once in the hospital for a kidney stone I sketched several pages of variations on some wooden boxes. I think putting ideas down on paper helps develop the eye-brain-hand connection that is critical when creating something. Putting them in a sketch book lets me go back and look at them, the good and the bad, see what I like and don't like and see even other ways to do things I might like better. All this can take so much time but can be very rewarding.

I mostly work on the lathe. I hear people say they just start removing wood and let the wood "speak to them" and see what develops. Somehow I don't think Michelangelo started chiseling on marble without sketching first. And look at the volumes of sketches da Vinci did! When I turn wood I almost always make a sketch before I start. I might even take some measurements and make the rough shape, then change and refine when I start seeing more of it in 3D. I've been known to make several quick "sketches" in wood before working on the "real" piece. This, for example, the first photo is of a small "sketch" I did to test out a design (I did luck into some nice wood!), and the next two are a couple of full-sized larger pieces with small variations: (these are Beads of Courage boxes for seriously sick children, most are cancer patients) Before I did the little test piece I made several pages of pencil sketches.

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I do the same thing when I carve. You mentioned spoons - a few years ago I decided to carve my first spoons in 40 years. I started with some sketches, no holds barred (most horrible!), then started seeing some things I liked more. These are coffee scoops, made with the inside volume to match the scoops that came with our coffee makers, from Cocobolo (I didn't like it as much so I gave it away) and Pink Flame. I wanted the little flare hook on the handle to fit comfortably around my finger and as I carved it I thought it looked a little like a whale's tail!

397723 397724 397725

Have you tried chip carving? I got interested in it a few years ago and after a few weeks of practice I discovered the fun of first copying, then freehand drawing with the knife. Of course, I had to do the hard work of all the exercises first! (And some of my first attempts were just awful.) Some practice boards:

397726

I recently bought a good airbrush - we'll see how that goes! I can't imagine any freer form of drawing than with an airbrush. My attempts so far have been embarrassing.

I encourage you (and everyone!) to get a sketch book and start making drawings of things you might want to make. Make lots of variations, don't worry if they are bad at first. It will probably won't happen in a week (!) but I think after a while you will start making visual connections and will see creativity that will spill over into your carving and woodworking. I think the hand-eye-brain-creative connection can be developed with practice and repetition. And if you haven't tried woodturning, you may just find it a wonderful means of 3D expression! It will certainly teach curves.

I also think it is helpful to search out designs and shape you like in books, galleries, and museums. Photograph what you like so you can look at it later and maybe make some sketches in your book.

Oops, this is way longer than what I intended...

JKJ


I was just trying to carve a spoon and I realized I really struggle with the, maybe say, visual art component of woodworking.
Anytime I have to carve or make a curve or anything other than what I can measure, I just don’t feel comfortable and it turns out like I remember my “paintings” in elementary school.
I have never been able to draw, and I have a hard time visualizing creative art. I play music which in a lot of ways can be very mathematical and contained, if you will. (I don’t play jazz ;)
Anyway, just wanted to get that off my chest and hear if anybody else can relate. I would love to hear if anybody got over that hurdle?

Andrew Seemann
11-30-2018, 12:42 AM
I was just trying to carve a spoon and I realized I really struggle with the, maybe say, visual art component of woodworking.

Anytime I have to carve or make a curve or anything other than what I can measure, I just don’t feel comfortable and it turns out like I remember my “paintings” in elementary school.

I have never been able to draw, and I have a hard time visualizing creative art. I play music which in a lot of ways can be very mathematical and contained, if you will. (I don’t play jazz ;)

Anyway, just wanted to get that off my chest and hear if anybody else can relate. I would love to hear if anybody got over that hurdle?

I feel your pain. I'm pretty good with furniture design as long it is somewhat in the Mission/Craftsman/Shaker style. I get proportions and lines and the golden ratio and things like that, but I get out of my element very quickly with 3 dimensional free form stuff.

As much as I like Art Nouveau and Art Deco, at best I could maybe copy a design, same with those Colonial styles. I don't even acknowledge that things like Danish modern exist.

Curt Harms
11-30-2018, 7:42 AM
I can strongly relate. Geometric or mechanical type designs have always come easy to me. Original, free flowing, artsy designs are difficult. I admire and envy people that can create “art”. We have many here, particularly in the turners forum that have this gift. I’m not one of them. :(

Me too. I think the 'artist's eye' for want of a better term is something that some people are born with. I'm sure it can be developed to some extent with study and practice but I think the best are born with abilities that they develop.

William Adams
11-30-2018, 8:20 AM
The best book on design I ever got was one on Japanese Flower Arranging (ennobled by some brilliant comments and sketches penciled into the margins, and added to during conversations with a good friend who was a florist).

As boat builders say, if it looks fair, it is fair --- one technique which will help one to work 3 dimensionally is to draw the profile views of a desired object onto a block of wood, then bandsaw the waste away, then revise / finish with suitable tools.

Don't overlook direct modeling --- modeling clay is inexpensive and excellent for developing shapes --- I've actually used air dry clay which my kids had to test out shapes and contours --- once I've worked up something suitable, transfer onto the sides of a block as noted above.

Phil Mueller
11-30-2018, 9:07 AM
I worked over 30 years in the advertising business surrounded by creativity. Art directors, in particular, had a talent for creating visuals that were inviting to view. I am convinced it was a combination of learned rules and inherent ability. They had the sense to use color, texture, proporation, arrangement, motion, timing and more to a level of appeal most of us can’t really appreciate. They could look at things and recognize its attraction and know why it works.

They practice their skill constantly. Every ad they see, movie they watch, every space they walk into is evaluated. I just think they are wired for it. I can remember many conversations about a movie that was just released, and the plot/story line was just secondary to the art direction. There is definitely reality to the left brain/right brain thinking.

I could take scaled drawings of pieces I was planning to make, and they could instantly tell me adjustments in proportion. Yes, we can study the rules, and with practice and application (lots of drafting, as mentioned already), we can get pretty good at it. But again, I’m convinced there is a gift beyond the training.

Seth Terndrup
11-30-2018, 9:52 AM
Wow so many wonderful contributions to this thread. I really didn’t expect that at all.

I’m glad to hear so many can relate.

I also appreciate the encouragement from others. It seems that a hurdle I will have to choose to get over is practicing even though I’m not happy with the outcomes. Like just stop quitting so quickly and resigning myself to “I can’t do this particular “thing”.

John Jordan - thank you for the post. Those bowls and spoons are beautiful!

Prashun Patel
11-30-2018, 10:31 AM
I bet even the best artists see someone else’s work they admire and feel the same discouragement you do.

Copy others work you admire. You will eventually learn to freehand it. Take little risks on each project. Good art is a combination of knowing how and when to obey and break the rules.

Just try and never give up.

John K Jordan
11-30-2018, 10:36 AM
I worked over 30 years in the advertising business surrounded by creativity....They practice their skill constantly. Every ad they see, movie they watch, every space they walk into is evaluated. I just think they are wired for it. I can remember many conversations about a movie that was just released, and the plot/story line was just secondary to the art direction. There is definitely reality to the left brain/right brain thinking.

I know the same people! I damaged my hands from years of software development (Oak Ridge National Lab) and switched to 3D modeling/animation, working closely with both graphics design and video people. They all (well at least the best!) did exactly as you say - lived with their eyes open. The video people loved TV, not for the shows but for the commercials - they would record TV then fast-forwards through the shows to get to the commercials! The discussions following the Super Bowl every year were fascinating. The same with architects - my son has a passion for spaces and color and form and it shows in his work.


I could take scaled drawings of pieces I was planning to make, and they could instantly tell me adjustments in proportion. Yes, we can study the rules, and with practice and application (lots of drafting, as mentioned already), we can get pretty good at it. But again, I’m convinced there is a gift beyond the training.

I used to think the same thing about the "gift". I'm not so sure now. I've seen people over the years who were total klutzes in art and music who changed completely once they set their minds to it. Mind you, it took determined focus and years of real work. I have one friend who's ceramic pieces used to be marginal. He was determined to change that with courses, study, and practice practice practice. Evidence of his effort was in big heap of smashed pieces behind his house (!) and in how his forms changed over the years - he is now a widely known artist. The same thing for drawing - I know several who loved to draw but frankly, were not good with perspective, form, and even color. Years later, art school, and a staggering amount of work and I'm really impressed! If you can, read Geoff Colvin's book "Talent is Overrated" I pointed out earlier. He makes a compelling case for the power of time and practice over the "gift" in nearly every field, music, sports, etc. For example, he cites studies that show the consistent difference between the masters and the also-rans was the number of years plus the effort they spent. The best-of-the-best did start young and they may be smarter than average, but I think none of us are incapable or too old to change. (My Lovely Bride of 48 years really surprised me recently, both by starting piano lessons when pushing 70 and by the rate of her progress over the first year! It was so painful at first...)

JKJ

Bob Glenn
11-30-2018, 11:13 AM
A good book that will help you with learning to draw is "Drawing on the right side of the brain". Most of drawing is about learning to see, really see. I often say if you can't draw it, you can't build it. I have heard from many people in the field, you should draw every day. Keep a sketch book and pencil nearby and make a sketch of anything in your spare time. You will get better and you are the best judge of your own work. Hang in there. Bob

John K Jordan
11-30-2018, 11:24 AM
A good book that will help you with learning to draw is "Drawing on the right side of the brain". Most of drawing is about learning to see, really see. I often say if you can't draw it, you can't build it. I have heard from many people in the field, you should draw every day. Keep a sketch book and pencil nearby and make a sketch of anything in your spare time. You will get better and you are the best judge of your own work. Hang in there. Bob

This one? https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1585429201 I second that - an excellent book.

Bill McDermott
11-30-2018, 11:51 AM
French Curves can be helpful tools.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/61/Curve_stencils.jpg/1280px-Curve_stencils.jpg

Chuck Nickerson
11-30-2018, 12:39 PM
My first artful pieces were anything but. Yet the ideas in my head wouldn't let me rest. I have been full-scale prototyping even my one-offs.

A great way to prototype spoons is with cardboard or that weird purple insulation foam board at Home Depot. Mistakes I make in that material don't bother me.

David Bassett
11-30-2018, 12:50 PM
I'm surprised no one has mentioned the Walker & Tolpin books: "By Hand & Eye", "By Hound & Eye", and "From Truths to Tools". They are about developing a sense of proportion and good design.

I haven't read them (yet), but I have enjoyed the columns and blog posts from both George Walker and Jim Tolpin on the subject.George has a column in the Dec 2018 PopWood about how repetition helps train the hands in implementing a vision, but also trains the eye in seeing the design that seems on topic too.

Tony Shea
11-30-2018, 4:19 PM
This is a great topic. It is my opinion that almost all people are not naturally gifted with a good eye for art. An artist of any sort starts off with very little skill and or ability to create appealing shapes whether on paper, wood, etc. Designing and learning to be creative is something that is learned through lots and lots of practice. A great way to practice is to copy pieces that you find appealing to your eye and get as close to the original as possible. Once you are able to create pieces that resemble the originals then you start to makes similar pieces, not exact copies. Then all of the sudden those similar pieces become full on one offs that you have created from scratch. It is all about figuring out how to make the different shapes and getting all the proportions correct. Once you get a handle on those aspects of design then you are well on your way to creating beautiful original furniture, spoons, drawings, etc. Having the "gift" of being creative is in my opinion a learned skill and not necessarily something you're born with as is so often stated.

James Pallas
11-30-2018, 5:37 PM
I enjoy thinking about something I would like to make, usually small items. I than go to my scrap box and find some pieces that may work. I tell myself I can only use from the scrap. I have to design around what I have at hand. I’ve come up with some nice things and some not so nice. I do have fun and learn a lot about design with constraints. I also try to include a new joint or decorative item in the work. I’m fairly confident that I can copy most work that I really want to copy but don’t find much fun in copying. On larger work I tend to give more thought to design.
Jim

Tom Bender
12-05-2018, 9:16 AM
Bill
I agree that French curves can be useful. As a draftsman, more than a few years ago, I used them, but they were not often the perfect curve. Still, it was necessary to follow a hard curve to get a sharp line. Now in sketching on paper or wood I have the freedom to create any curve. I almost never reach for a French curve any more.

Jim Koepke
12-05-2018, 3:57 PM
My current project is building a stand for a grinding stone. After two large scale drawings and one detail drawing the design has changed again. Currently there are only a few 'fixed' dimensions.

Most of the changes are only in my mind. It often seems to help by walking away from a project to ruminate. This has often prevented me from making errors. By running the numbers through the caverns of my mind, trying to visualize what goes where, things seem to fall right into place. It spares me the sting of a slap to the fore head.

jtk

John K Jordan
12-05-2018, 4:46 PM
Jim, is the grinding stone one of those big hand cranked stones, maybe 2' in diameter? If so, I'd love to see your final design. I have one of those stones, passed down from my father. Right now it decorates the base of a tree by the farm but it would be fun to try using it. The crank is broken but I can fabricate one.

JKJ


My current project is building a stand for a grinding stone. After two large scale drawings and one detail drawing the design has changed again. Currently there are only a few 'fixed' dimensions.

Most of the changes are only in my mind. It often seems to help by walking away from a project to ruminate. This has often prevented me from making errors. By running the numbers through the caverns of my mind, trying to visualize what goes where, things seem to fall right into place. It spares me the sting of a slap to the fore head.

jtk

Brian Holcombe
12-05-2018, 6:49 PM
My approach is to remain ever critical of my own decisions and evolve a design. Eventually you have enough tools in the design toolbox that you can execute a design well so long as you get the proportions right.

Practically speaking if you take notes from your own mistakes and apply them usefully to your next project you will eventually make work that you enjoy.

Design is a combination of events, proportions must work but also it’s important that a work be complete in its details. Studying historical Japanese and Chinese work I began to notice the details included, such a carefully planned chamfers that really helped a work appear complete and took a rather plain design into exceptional territory.

Look at a nice shoji and all you have are good proportion and neat detailing which set it apart from the very basic stuff.

Shaker work and Colonial American is very much the same in that good detailing make it’s design appealing.

Malcolm Schweizer
12-05-2018, 7:19 PM
Two quotes by Picasso come to mind:

”Every child is an artist. The challenge is remaining an artist once they grow up.”

”Some artists can turn the sun into a yellow spot; others turn a yellow spot into the sun.”

Malcolm Schweizer
12-05-2018, 7:20 PM
French Curves can be helpful tools.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/61/Curve_stencils.jpg/1280px-Curve_stencils.jpg

speaking of art, I see an angry face here.

John K Jordan
12-05-2018, 7:59 PM
speaking of art, I see an angry face here.

Perhaps a matter of perspective.

398134

Upside down I see designs for ice skate runners Santa's and his happy elves. May need additional design refinements for stability...



JKJ

Jim Koepke
12-05-2018, 8:24 PM
Jim, is the grinding stone one of those big hand cranked stones, maybe 2' in diameter? If so, I'd love to see your final design. I have one of those stones, passed down from my father. Right now it decorates the base of a tree by the farm but it would be fun to try using it. The crank is broken but I can fabricate one.

JKJ

Yes, though mine was originally foot powered. Mine is 20" in diameter.

When it is finished, images will be posted.

Mostly it will be a saw horse or saw bench design with some bearing mounts, fashioned of 2X6s on the sides. It will all go together with lap joints, threaded inserts and bolts.

My design for the treadle hasn't quite been formulated of yet. Part of the plan is to somehow attach a hinge to the legs at one end and having a platform so both feet can be used together or alternately. Will likely also want to build a pedestal to hold a tool rest.

jtk

John K Jordan
12-05-2018, 11:44 PM
Yes, though mine was originally foot powered. Mine is 20" in diameter.

When it is finished, images will be posted.

Mostly it will be a saw horse or saw bench design with some bearing mounts, fashioned of 2X6s on the sides. It will all go together with lap joints, threaded inserts and bolts.

My design for the treadle hasn't quite been formulated of yet. Part of the plan is to somehow attach a hinge to the legs at one end and having a platform so both feet can be used together or alternately. Will likely also want to build a pedestal to hold a tool rest.

jtk


A treadle sure would be easier to use! I saw a hand cranked one that took a second person to power.

How about a treadle mechanism from an old sewing machine?
Also, I have several spinning wheels for spinning fibers into yarn - one has a single foot pedal and the other has a dual pedal. Maybe looking at some of those would provide some proven designs, but would have to be redesigned for slower speed.

From pictures of antiques I see some had seats attached.

JKJ

Jim Koepke
12-06-2018, 1:53 AM
How about a treadle mechanism from an old sewing machine?

That would be nice for an old scroll saw of mine that is sitting on a shelf.


From pictures of antiques I see some had seats attached.

My original plan was to have a seat As part of the design. That may still happen.

Another thought that is rattling around in my head is to have an articulated treadle so one end could be used while standing for a quick touch up and the other end could be used seated.

jtk