Another septic system question

[Rick Potter]

Starting this because I didn't want to tread on a previous septic thread.

Is it possible and legal, to install some sort of closed holding tank like a septic tank, and just have it pumped out when needed rather than do a whole system?


I have a cabin in the high desert, 5000 foot elevation, huge rocks 100'+ piled up in some areas. It was built in the 50's as a bare shell. I installed electricity in the 70's. We have had it 40 years, has alway had an outhouse until someone shot it up a few years ago. We just refurbished the cabin and want to put a bathroom in it.

It is seldom used, and it does not warrant spending more than the place is worth on a septic system, plus I need to install a new 1,000 gallon water tank, since the old one rusted out after only 60 years.

Thanks,
Rick

[Lee Schierer]

Only your local codes would apply. Those from other locales would not be accurate for your location. Most places you can call the health department and ask your question and get honest answers.

[Wade Lippman]

They do it around here on lots that aren't suitable for septic systems. It deceased the sale value dramatically, but that's probably not an issue for you.

[Pat Barry]

Thats the way we had to do it for our lake cabin due to lot size and distance restrictions to wells and the lake.

[Jim Becker]

That type of system does legally exist in many jurisdictions for use when there is "zero perk" or a lot too small to accommodate a proper mound or drain field or there are other mitigating factors such as the lake situation that Pat mentioned. You do need to ask the zoning/building code officer in the specific jurisdiction what's permitted for that location.

[John K Jordan]

Is it possible and legal, to install some sort of closed holding tank like a septic tank, and just have it pumped out when needed rather than do a whole system?


Around here, the county health department has the final say in septic systems design. I'd call them.

I've read the method you described was quite common in history, especially in towns and cities before sewer systems were used. They put in a sub basement under the house and used it till full. I don't think they had pumps so some more manual method must have been used to clean it out when full. (Or just move)

JKJ

[Ole Anderson]

Friends just built a real nice rental house between the state highway and Grand Traverse Bay in MI, too narrow for a septic ($5500/ week during the cherry festival). Holding tanks were permitted. Alarm on WiFi so they and their septic pumping company get an email when it is time to pump. I can't imagine any jurisdiction denying a permit if that is the only solution for modern plumbing. Of course there are incinerating toilets, but you still have to get rid of grey water and that is usually regulated as well.

[Perry Hilbert Jr]

Here in PA there are many vacation lots that were sold and then a few years later could not be built on for lack of room for proper septic. Our Septic rules and installations are mandated by state law, but enforced by local sewage enforcement officers, most of whom are horses' rear ends. They often demand things which are not required and otherwise have risen to the level of their incompetence. The sewage enforcement officer in my township is a rare exception. Actually a nice professional engineer. I was not required to put in any system and could have used the old system when I built my new house, but I insisted on a system that was larger than what was called for. When I explained it to the guy, he was silent for a minute and then complimented me for having the fore thought to accomodate future possible builds. For instance a crapper in the garage that hasn't been built yet. An extra bedroom should we ever convert the wifes' sewing room to a bedroom, etc. (I do have an old septic system still at the old house location and I might put a bathroom in the barn and hook it up to that old system. I would only have to run a soil pipe about 30 feet to intersect with the existing line to the old system.)

To the OP, the system you refer to is not permitted in some states. Whether permitted in your state, you will have to find out who administers that part of the law, whether the Health Dept, Dept of Environmental reswources, etc.

[Ron Citerone]

We have one at our summer cottage on the Delaware Bay. That is all you are allowed to install there now. I would say for vacation home use it is fine. I would never buy regular house with one.

Mine is 1500 gallons. We usually use paper plates and bring food with us to limit water use. Also we have a button on our shower that allows you to turn off the water while lathering up. Low flush toilet helps too.

NJ turned the whole process into a circus and it took 2 years for it to get done..............long story!

BTW, I would never buy any house with a septic system after what I have been through.

[Jim Becker]

BTW, I would never buy any house with a septic system after what I have been through.

That could be pretty limiting on where you could live if you had to move! There's no public sewer (or water) around here so on-site is the only option. Which reminds me...I need to schedule a maintenance pump-out. :) :D

[Mark Bolton]

Many health departments have an option for a "tight tank" which is exactly what you outline. A solid tank, no outflow. Her you have to have a dual float alarm and a "contract" with a septic company.

There is nothing wrong with the solution as long as your local authority approves. It's actually a decent solution in that it makes the average wasteful individual use less water, waste less water, use dishwater to water flowers, and so on. When the average conscientious individual starts to quantify the true cost of what they run down the drain they typically become inherently more conscienscious i.e. Europe.

Youd be shocked how much the average individual can enjoy reducing when it becomes a challenge.

[Malcolm McLeod]

My early experience was with 'traditional' septic using a leach field. Required size of the field and lateral lines was determined by the planned facility (how many crappers). Learned this is called "anaerobic" system (no air), and processed via suitable anaerobic bacteria; was told these bacteria have poor efficiency (...30-40% IIRC). Hence the relatively large leach field.

Last home-build had soil with high clay content, so leach field was nixed by county authorities. Had to put in "aerobic" (air) system (different bacteria). It has 2 tanks: air vent in the lid and a motor-operated agitator in processing tank, then level switch triggering pump in 2nd holding tank. Pump feeds dedicated irrigation heads in the rear of property. VERY efficient bacteria = 'small' spray field = no odor. I was told the water is potable. I did not test this claim. :o

Though more expensive than a simple holding tank, the aerobic type sounds like it might be suitable to OP's rocky site...? And he IS in California .... where over-regulation is high art.;)

[Ron Citerone]

That could be pretty limiting on where you could live if you had to move! There's no public sewer (or water) around here so on-site is the only option. Which reminds me...I need to schedule a maintenance pump-out. :) :D


It would be limiting yes..............................If you heard my story you still might disagree, but you would understand.

[Rick Potter]

Thanks folks. I had never seen a closed system, but figured it must be used somewhere. Since the bathroom would be used maybe every few months, I certainly cannot justify anything more fancy. There is no bathroom at all right now, just a now filled hole in the ground where the out house was.

In the old days we used to stay there two weeks at a time, but since the outhouse got destroyed, not much anymore.

I will start with the building department in that area. It is actually in the same county that I live in, but over a hundred miles from home. I also found an ad for a septic company in the general area.

Thanks again for the starting ideas.

[Perry Hilbert Jr]

If you know or have a contact with an excavation company that does septic systems, they can give you the quick scoop on what is likely to pass. I talked to the guy who has done all out excavation for 25 years and he described the systems, knew the soil and subsoil I had and correctly predicted what I would need, how large and then allowed me to do most of the ground work, while he ran the machines. I saved about $3k on installation.

[David Helm]

Likely will require pumping more often which is an expense based on volume. The whole purpose of a drain field is to get rid of the liquid so you are only pumping the solids. There are way more liquids than solids. Around here it costs around $500 to $700 to pump the tank. It would not take too many extra pumpings to end up costing more than the installation of a drain field.

[Jim Becker]

David, in many areas of the country, "traditional drain fields" are no longer permitted as the perk got a lot stricter. So that means sand mounds or in-ground versions of the same...which run in the neighborhood of $25-45K at this point for an average home. For a "cabin in the woods", the tank may very well be more practical!

[Ron Citerone]

David, in many areas of the country, "traditional drain fields" are no longer permitted as the perk got a lot stricter. So that means sand mounds or in-ground versions of the same...which run in the neighborhood of $25-45K at this point for an average home. For a "cabin in the woods", the tank may very well be more practical!

That's exactly what happened at some of the Delaware Bay towns. No more drain fields, holding tanks only. Also no more repairs to drain fields, systems with problems must be replaced with holding tanks. In order to sell a house old systems must be replaced by holding tanks. No choice to it. No sand mounds.

Mostly summer homes there.

[Bob Grier]

I expect most municipal and state regulations for residential on-site waste systems are for continuous or extended occupancy dwellings. It seems to me that a small leach field or short drain field and small septic tank would be fine for what I understand your needs are as long as the septic tank had enough capacity to hold a few times the discharge from an expected stay. During the 2 weeks or longer between stays, a slow perk leach field would probably drain the tank and you would save the expense of pumping and hauling liquid that liquid.

I used a couple 5 gallon plastic buckets taped together open end to open end for a septic tank and 12 feet of drain trench for my cabin and it has worked for 25 years with just one rehab to clean the bucket. The only thing it drains is the kitchen sink. I doubt it has been occupied for more than a week at a time. It is remote with no road access but is used winter and summer, mostly weekends but longer stays during hunting season.

You or a contractor can probably figure out a practical and cost effective way to deal with what you want. If you are talking about a cabin that is located in a subdivision of recreational use cabins then maybe you want something a little more in line with what permitting authorities can come up with. If it is a remote cabin then maybe you or a contractor can come up with what would be appropriate.

[Jim Becker]

Bob, about the most heavily regulated thing in zoning/planning these days is septic/sewer, even for an occasional use situation like a cabin. The fines and cost of remediation for anyone getting "Creative" these days are astronomical! What would easily fly under the radar years ago no longer is workable.

[Brian Henderson]

That could be pretty limiting on where you could live if you had to move! There's no public sewer (or water) around here so on-site is the only option. Which reminds me...I need to schedule a maintenance pump-out. :) :D

Yup. Although the city keeps saying city sewers are coming, and we see them getting rolled out throughout the city, we haven't gotten them yet. We get our septic pumped every 3 years and it works just fine. Gotta get it done this summer. Hopefully we'll get city sewer sooner rather than later, but septic works just fine.

[David Helm]

David, in many areas of the country, "traditional drain fields" are no longer permitted as the perk got a lot stricter. So that means sand mounds or in-ground versions of the same...which run in the neighborhood of $25-45K at this point for an average home. For a "cabin in the woods", the tank may very well be more practical!

I just had a new system installed last year. They do not allow gravity fed drain fields but require a pump system with alarm. Including design I spent ~$15K. Wouldn't take a very long time to get to that point with pumpouts at $700 a shot. Liquids fill up quite fast. Incidentally my location is regulated by shoreline management laws which are quite strict.

[Jim Becker]

I just had a new system installed last year. They do not allow gravity fed drain fields but require a pump system with alarm. Including design I spent ~$15K. Wouldn't take a very long time to get to that point with pumpouts at $700 a shot. Liquids fill up quite fast. Incidentally my location is regulated by shoreline management laws which are quite strict.

That's a heck of a good price for that system, David. Around here, you're looking at double that for a similar system. In fact, my system is that type; 1500 gallon tank + 500 gallon pump tank + pump + alarm + pressurized field that we fortunately were able to install below grade on the hill behind our home on our particular property. When first installed (after we closed on the house and funded by the previous owner) it was $25K in 2001. The house was 3 br and 1.5 baths at that point. When we added our addition in 2008, the pressurized field had to be re-done and increased in size...for another $25K. Fortunately, the tanks and pump were already sized properly for 5 bedrooms/3.5 baths or it would have cost even more!

[Mark Bolton]

I just had a new system installed last year. They do not allow gravity fed drain fields but require a pump system with alarm. Including design I spent ~$15K. Wouldn't take a very long time to get to that point with pumpouts at $700 a shot. Liquids fill up quite fast. Incidentally my location is regulated by shoreline management laws which are quite strict.

Makes you love to live in rural America where you can still install a gravity conventional system (provided you can perk) for about $4500. I relocated from an area that had mandatory septic inspections on the sale of any property. The average remediation for a failed inspection was about $30k just to excavate the leach field, load it into a sealed/lined container dump, haul it to an approved disposal site, and install a new leach. It made us very happy that my exwife and I were the odd birds of the world and she made all of our soap, shampoo, laundry detergent... we were a heavily conserving household. When the company came out for the Title 5 inspection to save cost they let us dig out the septic lid and two locations at the end of each leach line in the field. When the guy came to inspect he looked at us like we were cheaters and proceeded to dig out another couple feet of the leach himself because he said a system that age the gravel is usually slick and black like grease has been poured over the gravel but ours was clean and looked like we had shoveled clean gravel in to hoo-doo the test. After asking a bunch of questions he went on about the lack of commercial soaps and detergents and their associated waxes and synthetics is why the system was so clean and healthy

We were a rare home in the neighborhood to not have to remediate.