Re-filing Japanese chisels

[Keith Mathewson]

I recently received two chisels which Stan was good enough to have made for me. These are a representative sample before ordering a set. I’m very happy with the overall quality however the file work is less than desirable. Stan said he spoke with the blacksmith and was told that was as much detail as he was willing to do. Stan also informed me that this style of chisel is seldom made anymore and I suspect I may be fortunate that the blacksmith is willing to make them.

Does anyone one have experience reworking chisels? I had very little experience metalworking and would like to avoid making a slightly clumsy tool even more so.

[Jessica de Boer]

I can't see a picture of the chisel. It just says "Attached Thumbnails".

Edit: It's a problem with Firefox. The pictures show in Google Chrome.

It doesn't look too terrible to me. What exactly do you want to refine?

[brian zawatsky]

You may want to reach out to Brian Holcombe, he had just posted on another thread recently about how he touches up lackluster file work on his chisels.

Also, just my .02 - you will not be disappointed with the quality of the steel in the C&S brand tools. I bought a 10pc set back in April and I'm glad I did. They take a very sharp edge and hold it well. Just for basis of comparison, I bought a set of new old stock Osahiro (Nagahiro) chisels a few months ago, and the only difference i can see between them (aside from the fact that the Osahiro cost twice as much) is the superior level of "fit & finish" in the Osahiro tools. They are beautiful, but I haven't used them enough to be able to compare the two on the basis of steel hardness yet.

[Jessica de Boer]

You may want to reach out to Brian Holcombe, he had just posted on another thread recently about how he touches up lackluster file work on his chisels.

Also, just my .02 - you will not be disappointed with the quality of the steel in the C&S brand tools. I bought a 10pc set back in April and I'm glad I did. They take a very sharp edge and hold it well. Just for basis of comparison, I bought a set of new old stock Osahiro (Nagahiro) chisels a few months ago, and the only difference i can see between them (aside from the fact that the Osahiro cost twice as much) is the superior level of "fit & finish" in the Osahiro tools. They are beautiful, but I haven't used them enough to be able to compare the two on the basis of steel hardness yet.

My dad told me once that Nagahiro was a peer of Ichihiro and Kiyotada in terms of fit and finish and performance. I think that if you swap Ichihiro for Nagahiro in the review I posted a few days ago the result will be very similar.

[brian zawatsky]

My dad told me once that Nagahiro was a peer of Ichihiro and Kiyotada in terms of fit and finish and performance. I think that if you swap Ichihiro for Nagahiro in the review I posted a few days ago the result will be very similar.

Thanks Jessica. Stan seemed to think that would be the case as well.

[Vincent Tai]

Brian has tightened up the file work on a chisel which is in a recent thread; I think it was the Ichihiro vs Stans smith one. Honestly I would leave these chisel like that, recreating as nice as a kuro oxide as that will be more headaches, theres all sorts of method with rusting and boiling the tool and repeat until desired being the closest in terms of look and feel but even then it won't be as nice. An option is just doing a file finish and leaving it like that. Examples and descriptions can be found in Brian Holcombe's writeup about Japanese chisels on his site.

I would not call these chisels clumsy. There are (or were) many smiths in Japan who frown on making pretty tools. This one doesn't seem all that rough either. The surface look efficiently grounded. Not to mention Stan's smith's work performs extremely well according to experienced folks on this forum.

Don't be afraid of metal work. With hand files and purposeful strokes well spaced and well thought out it is hard to do damage that can't be easily filed out. Good files are very nice. My design teacher gifted me with a set of pristine un-used Nicholson files that his father gave him way back in the day. They are very sweet to use. Chalk your files, and make sure no metal gets clogged in the file teeth which will scratch your work.

I don't have many photos of relevant filing but here goes.
397339 Here is a picture of a marking knife idea I was working on. I hacksawed and chiseled the wasted out and filed in the curves. I was going to file the flat surface here but for reasons I forget I put aside this project. I used cheap cheap files and with some care they worked fine.

397340My first knife a few years ago, I hadn't done any forging and very little metalwork prior to this, this is the knife after filing and some sanding right before claying for HT. It took time but watching the Japanese smiths on YouTube helps.

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This photo is more relevant, some side profiles of a pair of chisels. All surfaces shown are hand filed, just out of heat treat. Its an idea I'm working on so I won't show the full view. You can still see the decently even angles and swoops. Use lay out dye, or sharpie to keep track. Use a progression of files if you can. Draw-file at appropriate places. Be sure to avoid rounding and creating convex surfaces where it was once flat, it looks terrible.

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This photo is rotated because of some stupid quirk of vertical pic uploads but you can see the filing of the flat angular surface right to the gauge line and accurately so, and the swoop which was a rougher filed surface before being cleaned up by a finer file. The flat surface is draw filed.


https://youtu.be/LYYo0CuTco8?list=PLg4KBTHxJ6dNDHc7mTsbx71eEbQmd2a-p&t=1268

This video shows Hidari Hisa Saku, a Japanese Smith and a bit of the process he uses for making chisels. I've linked to the time stamp where he starts filing and scraping but it is recommended you watch the whole thing for fun!
Hope that helped a little.

Vince

[Keith Mathewson]

I don’t know if the pics can be seen now. The aspect which bothers Stan, that being the symmetry of the lines from the handle to back of the chisel, don’t concern me as much as the mating of the chisel to the handle. There is about an 1/8” shoulder on each side and your fingers seem to find them every time.

[Patrick Walsh]

Yikes!

I would not be happy with those.

[Vincent Tai]

I don’t know if the pics can be seen now. The aspect which bothers Stan, that being the symmetry of the lines from the handle to back of the chisel, don’t concern me as much as the mating of the chisel to the handle. There is about an 1/8” shoulder on each side and your fingers seem to find them every time.

Keith, I can't really see because of the darkness and shadow bending in the detail. So I have take a few screen shots from Stan's Ichimatsu chisel thread here to help visualize my questions. https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?263650-Ichimatsu-Chisel&highlight=

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Are the ones you have protruding like this? Or are they protruding even more, to the point the whole shoulder of the tang is 1/8" past the entire ferrule? I know from pictures that Yamahiros protrude to past the ferrule a little at the diameter, other makers like Tasai and Ouchi file them down to a very near fit including the corners. Ouchi I thought might actually have the "best" fit but then I remembered the Hiramachi set I saw made by Kiyohisa, simple black oxide finish but the prettiest and seamless file work you'll probably see. There was no shoulder protrusion at all, the neck is rounded to a radius that matches the ferrule. Probably also the most expensive (depends on the sets of Tasai I guess).

Anyways my point is if its protruding like the Kiyotada thats rather normal from what I see. Even for some Tasai sets but a little more knocked down. A Kikuhiromaru I saw was protruding over a 1/16th at the diameter of the ferrule. If it's a full 1/8th at the diameter of the ferrule that might be a bit much. Even Yamahiro's I've seen don't protrude that much. I would knock that down. There are other smiths but a pretty penny and a six year wait for Kiyohisa, and Tasai's are also very pricey. Ouchi and Yamahiro hiramachi style Nomis seem in stock on iidatools, and Ouchi ones can be found on toolsfromjapan too. Not too bad on the pricing either. The Kikuhiromaru I saw was a custom one so you would have to find someone with relations to them for that to happen. Thats going to be hard with So at J tool swamped enough as it is.

Maybe ask Stan what he would do. His word is better than most on subjects like this. Personally I would knock off the shoulder with a file if it was protruding that much at the ferrule's diameter and leave the rest alone. I would try to get the chisel out the handle for that task, marring the ferrule is no fun. Also, the not too symmetrical grinds; has Stan or you thought about the Kaku-uchi profile? Would pretty much just get rid of most of the problem, at least until the neck. It is a different look though. Very nice looking though; the ones I've seen.

I can imagine someone asking a real old school rough style smith to pretty up their work. A bit of a funny image, not so funny for the person asking. I remember Stan saying he asked his smith he would send out the work to a professional filer and he refused to. This is an interesting situation with great steel but rough grinding. The situation is often the other way around.

[lowell holmes]

I shape and sharpen my chisels with a diamond hone. If radical sharpening is needed, I will shape the chisel on a wheel and then hone it.

[Brian Holcombe]

I agree with the sentiment above that it is a the work of a fantastic smith, but it is true that he does finish them quickly. Filing is where the price per chisel rises from $100~ to $200. The reason is that it is time consuming. I'm happy to pay for finish in many cases but some smiths simply prefer to keep their product modest and so tangible by the people using the tools in traditional areas of work.

Anywho, I have refiled a batch of chisels made by Kikuhiromaru after making new handles. This chisel is a Yamahiro which I reworked more heavily, it was un-usable as produced and so needed a complete overhaul anyways even though I should have returned it.

It's easy work, just proceed with caution and use nice files. I prefer 'precision' files sold by McMaster Carr, they're Swiss made.

https://brianholcombewoodworker.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/IMG_1842.jpg

[Brian Holcombe]

It's worth noting that the top of the chisel to ferrule connection on squared neck chisels seem to almost always overhang the ferrule. This is the same on my best chisels by the most contentious makers that I'm aware of. I've never understood why that is, but it seems to be always the case so I respect that it is simply done in that fashion. I've knocked the sharp corners off on the inexpensive ones, but the better ones I leave them as is. My feeling is that I'd rather bleed than modify the work of someone like Konobu.

[Jessica de Boer]

I remember Stan saying he asked his smith he would send out the work to a professional filer and he refused to.

Stan mentioned this to me as well. Apparently the blacksmith told him that's how he was taught by his father (the rough finish) and he will not even consider making his work a bit more attractive. In my opinion a real craftsman/woman is always open to new ideas and ways of doing things. I wouldn't be able to work with someone like that.

[Vincent Tai]

It's worth noting that the top of the chisel to ferrule connection on squared neck chisels seem to almost always overhang the ferrule. This is the same on my best chisels by the most contentious makers that I'm aware of. I've never understood why that is, but it seems to be always the case so I respect that it is simply done in that fashion. I've knocked the sharp corners off on the inexpensive ones, but the better ones I leave them as is. My feeling is that I'd rather bleed than modify the work of someone like Konobu.

My guess is that that the smith wants to make sure that the ferrule gets good contact with the chisel so that the metal shoulder doesn't punch into the handle too much or in one place or at all. Most smiths don't handle the handle making/fitting (Konobu has an in-house fitting - not sure about making though, I think Ouchi also fits theirs in house I'll check his blog) so won't and can't go filing each chisel to the varied ferrule styles, sizes. Absolute fit or near would mean testing the handle and filing before heat treat which would be very very time consuming and would mean a very sharp rise in the cost of the chisels. Even if it was all in house I can't imagine many makers fitting the handle on to mark out the areas that need filing and then try to take off a well fitted handle to get perfect fit. Not to mention having to repeat the process to chase the fit closer and closer. Loose handles aren't much good for chisels that are to be struck. Except for Kiyohisa, the pictures of Chris Hall's hiramachi set show some very dedicated filing and fitting. The pictures aren't quite well lit enough to see for sure if they are as well filed to match the ferrule as I think they are but I hope they are. Brian; do you have any Kiyohisa's in this style?

[Vincent Tai]

Stan mentioned this to me as well. Apparently the blacksmith told him that's how he was taught by his father (the rough finish) and he will not even consider making his work a bit more attractive. In my opinion a real craftsman/woman is always open to new ideas and ways of doing things. I wouldn't be able to work with someone like that.

Good point Jessica, I hadn't thought about how hard it would be to actually work with someone that stubborn. Just the mouth trembling I would have when posing the question to someone that stubborn and proven stubborn by quite a few decades of their work. It is interesting; this level of stubbornness. I wonder if it's some sort of jaded view where the stubbornness becomes a thing to fulfill or out of a very serious mindset of sticking to the family tradition. Or perhaps a deep loathing of pretty tools. Or maybe none of my theories are close and we will never find out more.

[Jessica de Boer]

Good point Jessica, I hadn't thought about how hard it would be to actually work with someone that stubborn.

I know from experience it's very frustrating. I once worked for a furniture maker and he was like that. I would tell him about a new technique for example and he would immediately dismiss it even if he knew it was a better way of doing it. He would just say: "This is how I've always done it and I'm not changing." He just couldn't deal with the thought there might actually be a better way of doing something or that he might be wrong. We regularly butted heads because I'm not one to keep quiet. I got the hell out of there once I had some experience under my belt and started my own company. I now employ 3 people myself and I told them to please come to me if they know a better way of doing something because I can't know everything. It makes me a better furniture maker and if it's good for my company it's good for them as well.

[Brian Holcombe]

Vincent, I don’t own Kiyohisa’s, but certainly he may be the one filing them perfectly.

[Patrick Walsh]

Vin,

Kiyohisa,

not perfect but good enough for me.

You can see in a few photos where the tool transitioning into the ferel has a slight lip or transition. You can also see in places where I assume the maker filed then touched up with waterever blackening agent and or a sharpie. Third picture down shows this well.

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[Jessica de Boer]

I must be one of the few who does not care at all if the neck doesn't perfectly mate with the ferrule. It's a hand made product after all and I like this kind of imperfection.

[Vincent Tai]

Patrick,
I would call this perfect as can and should be for a normal neck style. The actual flush ones are these nasty looking ground on some slack belt things. Koyamaichi does this for a few chisels. It is not nice looking and are the hallmark of chisels by Grizzly etc. Even Ichihiro with his filed and polished style ones would leave a transition, as much for the eye as it is practical.

Are you thinking the splotchiness is from cold blue after some filling on the ferrule? It could be, or just some not great cold blue from the ferrule's original maker. (Though Im pretty sure some of the blued chisel hoops and ferrules are just from leaving bare steel at the right temp in an oven for a bit and then lacquering them up to protect them a little). These seem cold blued though from the colour, interesting. I can't see any touch up marks on the shaft itself. The colour of an artificial black is quite off compared to the original, especially if the shaft has the original skin left.

Thanks for the pics, I always like seeing more tools, especially from their owners!

Vince

[Vincent Tai]

And I wouldn't even call it an imperfection. The neck should be wider by a few hairs at least to ensure that good all around ferrule contact. a fully flush mate on a normal round style beck would look rather awful. Slack belt sanded. A jarring visual. The detail of the Kiyohisa hiramachi style that caught my eye is the neck width and chamfers seemed about as perfect as can be compared to the ferrule.

I lifted a photo from Chris Hall's blog. https://thecarpentryway.blog/2016/01/an-embarrassment-of-riches/
Obviously when you get to this sort of thing it is really just refinement for there sake of refinement but nevertheless I like seeing it once in a while. Must add a lot to production costs though so not practical for many.
https://i2.wp.com/thecarpentryway.blog/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/a9f13-p1160005-small.jpg?ssl=1

[Brian Holcombe]

Konobu:

https://brianholcombewoodworker.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/fullsizeoutput_96a-1977775075-1542574287613.jpeg

[Edwin Santos]

How do the chisels perform? Do they take a fine edge, cut well and hold up to use?

If yes to all these questions, maybe the cosmetics will mean less to you.

Edit - If you bought the tool to be used that is. If your intention was to have it more as a show piece, then I can see where the cosmetics might be the most important factor.

Edwin

[Keith Mathewson]

Reading the replies has been enlightening and I’ll have to spend some time using them with a different mindset. Many of the tools I own now are handmade and I’ve come to expect a different level of finish then this. In the short amount of time I’ve used them they appear to be quite good. I’ll have to decide if the finish is such that a different maker would be a better choice.

[Dom Campbell]

On the topic of stubborness in Japanese craftsmen/shokunin, this is very much the norm by all accounts. The old apprenticeship system may well have led to this, with uncompromising ideas passed down with a great deal of reverence, which people are not likely to change.

And with things like this, the ideas tend to become more and more ingrained as they get passed down. Add to that shokunin who gets on in years, and the result is apt to be someone very uncompromising.

Reading accounts of shokunin, they seem to be some of the most stubborn, pig headed, difficult to work people with on a personal level - but any of them worth their salt is creating something truly incredible. They concentrate on the important areas, with little regard for anything else.

There will of course be exceptions.

FWIW, I have a set of mukoumachi nomi from Stan’s smith, and tataki nomi from Sukemaru and while the filing on Stan’s may be a tiny bit worse off, the steel is just incredible (as already mentioned already here), the weld lines are perfect, and the shape of the chisels (important for mortise chisels) are spot on.

As always YMMV.