Propane substitute for bloxygen

[Jeff Clode]

Have read multiple threads about storing partially used cans of finish with bloxygen, nitrogen, CO2, marbles, vacuum extraction device etc. Every once in a while someone mentions using propane as a heavier than air gas substitute but there has been surprisingly little follow up in the way of response. One person says he’s used it for years, one was afraid of using a flammable gas, one said it gave on off smell to latex paint..as far as I can tell (and I did search the topics and posts pretty thoroughly I think), not much else..
Anyone else with other thoughts or experiences?
Thanks
Jeff

[Dwight Rutherford]

I have found “Stop Loss Bags” to be the most effective and user friendly.

[Terry Vaughan]

I'd like to use a protectant for danish oil cans. Speaking from absolutely no experience, I assume propane would displace air but might dissolve in the oil and cause a partial vacuum in the can. No idea if that would be a problem.

[John K Jordan]

I'm not a chemist. I do know that propane, C3H8, is certainly not an inert gas so reacting with something in some finish seems possible. The bloxygen people put this on their web site (keep in mind their goal is to sell Bloxygen to you): CO2? We use ultra pure Argon because it's totally inert. CO2 is okay, but it's not totally inert and will react with water to form carbonic acid. In fact, CO2 is relatively reactive compared to many other gasses.

A person on another forum with an understanding of chemistry said while CO2 can react to form carbolic acid it may be unlikely.

The best thing is to use an inert gas but those do cost more. CO2 is very cheap. Nitrogen is relatively cheap.

I use nitrogen since I happen to have a spare tank full of it. If I ever empty this tank (I use it for other things besides finishes) I might get it filled with argon. Nitrogen is not an inert gas but it's not a relatively active element and will not react with many elements at room temperature.

I wouldn't hesitate to use CO2 or an Argon/CO2 welding gas mix. I'm personally not interested in releasing propane into my shop air. It would a lot of it and certain conditions to ignite and set something else on fire. I don't want the smell - maybe if used outside.

When I purge with nitrogen I probably use 10 times more gas than would be required but it has no odor and since about 80% of the air we breath is nitrogen it's not going to hurt anything or anyone (unless you put your head in a plastic bag and fill it with the gas). Nitrogen is also good for preserving food (I use it to extend the life of vanilla beans for making extract) and for dispatching mice caught in a live trap or injured/dying animals that need to be euthanized.

Note, whatever gas you use other than Bloxygen, you will need to have tank and regulator - they are both relatively expensive and need to be acquired from a gas supplier. I suspect some people use propane simply because they can buy a pressurized cylinder of it at the hardware store.

JKJ


Have read multiple threads about storing partially used cans of finish with bloxygen, nitrogen, CO2, marbles, vacuum extraction device etc. Every once in a while someone mentions using propane as a heavier than air gas substitute but there has been surprisingly little follow up in the way of response. One person says he’s used it for years, one was afraid of using a flammable gas, one said it gave on off smell to latex paint..as far as I can tell (and I did search the topics and posts pretty thoroughly I think), not much else..
Anyone else with other thoughts or experiences?
Thanks
Jeff

[Brice Rogers]

I've used propane to displace air in cans of Minwax wipe-on. It seems to work. I used a 1# propane can for soldering. I don't think that they put in an odor like they do when you have a large propane tank filled (like for your home heating).

Based on reviewing some on-line papers, I believe that CO2 mixes with air and doesn't readily stratify. But squirting in some CO2 will displace some air and reduce the concentration of O2. But I believe that Argon does stratify. That is also why it is used to extend the life of wine once opened (e.g., Corovan).

Although propane is heavier than air, I think that when it is in the gaseous phase that it too effectively mixes with air rather than stratify. I know that this goes against some common beliefs. I read a concern that propane may dissolve into the finish and cause the can to collapse. I have not seen this.

When I am motivated to squirt in some propane (typically into a small Minwax can), I use a soda straw that can bend and wrap my hand around the nozzle of my propane torch and the straw and shoot in a few seconds of propane. It seems to work although I haven't done any controlled tests. I also suspect that storing volatile finishes in a refrigerator will certainly slow down any degradation.

[Walter Mooney]

Wow! I just store my cans of finish upside down on the shelf! I've been doing it for years and all the finishes last a long time.

[Ed Aumiller]

I use argon to fill the cans that are oil based... do not use anything on cans that are water based...

[Alex Zeller]

Seams like a great chance for all of you non-welders to learn a new skill. My mig welder has an Argon tank that I use if it's a finish that's going to sit for a long time.

[Bob Bergstrom]

I use plastic pop bottles. As the level decreases I just squeeze the air out. Easy to pour and screw on lid. The 10 oz is great, a half liter allows the bottle to be flatten quite a lot. I use a pliers to unscrew the lid sometimes. I haven’t had leak yet. Pepsi’s vertical sides are easier than Coke.

[Art Mann]

For me, using an inert gas sounds like spending $100 to save $10.

[John K Jordan]

For me, using an inert gas sounds like spending $100 to save $10.

The gas to fill a tank is cheap, a LOT cheaper than the opened cans of finish I've wasted.

The tank isn't cheap but if you already have tanks and regulators around. From my welding I probably have 8-10 tanks of various sizes.

I've seen tanks on Craigslist. Before buying one make sure your gas supplier will trade or fill that size. Several sizes of smaller tanks are user owned, most of the others are leased and sometimes someone tries to sell one that doesn't belong to him.

JKJ

[Frederick Skelly]

I have the stop loss bags and like them.

Initially, I thought using a flammable gas seemed unwise. But after thinking about it, I'm not sure that propane is any less flammable/dangerous than the gasses coming off the oil-based finish itself. I can't speak to the chemistry of mixing propane with those finishes though.

[Grant Wilkinson]

For oils, I just fill up the can with water. The oil floats on the water and the oil stays fresh because there is no room in the can. I used to fill the can with marbles. That worked well, too, but I kept running out of marbles. My wife says it's because I lost all mine a long time ago.

[Terry Vaughan]

For oils, I just fill up the can with water

Grant, how do you keep the oil free of water in use?

[Larry Frank]

The question is really what is cheap and practical for the average guy. I do not have 8-10 tanks of gas sitting around.

I generally do not worry about it as I use finish fast enough to not have a problem.

[Jeff Jackson]

Has anybody had any experience using canned air (used for computers and electronics) as a Bloxygen substitute? I have heard about this and been wanting to try this. It would be a heck of a lot cheaper.

[Steve Demuth]

For me, using an inert gas sounds like spending $100 to save $10.

Doesn't have to cost much if you want to try in order to convince yourself. A can of wine preserver (Generally a mix of Ar, N2 and CO2) is about $10, and is ready to use - no regulator necessary.

[Grant Wilkinson]

Terry: The oil floats on the water. They don't mix, unless you shake it. I can decant some of the oil into a yogurt container for application, return what I don't use to the oil/water container and all is well. I have not tried this for oil-based stains, for example. I use it for tung oil and walnut oil and it works very well.

[Steve Demuth]

I use nitrogen since I happen to have a spare tank full of it. If I ever empty this tank (I use it for other things besides finishes) I might get it filled with argon. Nitrogen is not an inert gas but it's not a relatively active element and will not react with many elements at room temperature.

As an element, Nitrogen is highly reactive. It's the N in TNT and the reason it and most other explosives explode. It's just that the elemental N in N2 gas is very tightly bound and requires a lot of energy to release.

[Dave Bunge]

I think propane should work as a substitute for Bloxygen. It's denser than air so should be good at displacing the air in the finish container. And it shouldn't react with the finish. But I don't want to deal with the fire risk, storing and using propane in my basement shop.

Others have mentioned using Stoploss bags. I'm a big fan too. They cost about $12/4 pack at Woodcraft. The finish lasts much longer compared to not using inert gas. I also like that it's easier to pour the finish out of the Stoploss bags compared to the steel cans that Minwax Antique Oil and wipe on poly come in.

I have several finishes in Stoploss bags. I put them all in a 5 gallon bucket with lid. That blocks the sunlight/UV (the bags are clear). It also provides "secondary containment" in case one of the bags leaks. (I haven't had any leakers in 3+ years of use).

I used Bloxygen for a while, but had a hard time knowing how much to add, and a hard time adding as much as I thought I should since it was so expensive.

Dave

[Leo Van Der Loo]

I have shown what I do to keep my PTO (polymerized Tung Oil) from becoming unusable, a few times on the forums, and this works for any Oil finish.

I use a reclosable bottle, like the one shown in the picture, I add water to keep the bottle full, I have been using this for better than 20 years already.

The water and oil do not mix, even if I would shake the bottle, the water and oil separate in less than 2 second again.

Doing this I can use my Polymerized Tung Oil right till the last drop, though I use a small piece of cloth to soak the last bit up, the oily cloth will not accept any water.

The oil will stay good for better than a year or two, (I have always used it up by then) even when filling 2 bottles as I often do because I buy a larger can of the oil.
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[Hayes Rutherford]

I like that Leo. Going to get some Grolsh next time in town and start to empty them. :)