HSS Sharpening/ Shaper Speeds

[Stan Coryell]

I just picked up a Rockwell HD 2 HP shaper, one speed, 10k RPM. It came with a bucket of HSS knives. All are 1/2 and there are a lot of doubles and tripples. Nothing special, ogees, beads, flutes, rabbits, etc. Do you guys think that it's worth it to send any of these out for sharpening? Also, I'm thinking about getting something like an Amana Profile Pro. It's says max speed is 9k. It's not a problem to slow the spindle down, but I was wondering how the HSS or brazed carbide would like the lower speed. I realize I could just switch inserts. But, I'm thinking I'd still want to be able to run carbide, a dedicated round over would be nice. Any thoughts?

Thanks
Stan

[Mel Fulks]

The one speed shapers that I've seen of that type were all 8000 rpm. But I guess I haven't seen all of them! What kind
of knives do you have ? Are they the old type with beveled edges at top and bottom?

[Stan Coryell]

I checked the speed, and math wise it works out to be 9500 RPM. Once I get it hooked up, I'll see if I can put a tach on it to be sure. For now I'll say it's 10k RPM. It does have the factory 7 1/2" pulley on the motor. Yes, I would say the cutters are the old type. I'm not sure what you mean by top and bottom. They look like the Delta three wing cutters with a relief bevel on the back side of the cutting edge.

Thanks
Stan

[Mel Fulks]

I am familiar with the 3 wing cutters,and they are fine. But not popular now so you can sometimes get old ones cheaply
or even free. Some are steel and some are carbide. In my earlier post I thought maybe you had some of the loose knives that are held between "collars".
They are not used much now owing mostly to careless and uninformed use by some.

[Stan Coryell]

Yes, I've seen the 3 wings for sale, that's why I'm wondering if they are worth sharpening. Carbide can be pretty reasonable and most profiles would probably last my lifetime. I might just be overthinking this.

[Richard Coers]

You'll find that since that shaper runs about 8,000rpm less than a router, you'll have to really slow down the feed speed. You won't get nearly as nice of finish as a router on end grain. In my opinion, a good router in a table is far superior.

[Mel Fulks]

In general the type of shaper cutters we are talking about have a larger diameter than router bits. So the difference in how the two types compare is not as great as the RPMs alone would indicate.
The old three wing cutters can be found made of all steel . All the new ones I've seen are carbide.

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi, for solid wood use steel cutters work great.

That shaper doesn't have a low enough speed for most shaper cutters, as they're often in the 100 to 150mm diameter range.

You probably also have a 1/2" spindle which isn't suitable for larger cutters.

I would suggest you have a few cutters sharpened and see how you like your new machine.

Welcome to the world of shapers, the most versatile machine in my shop...........Rod.

[Mike Cutler]

Congrats on your shaper. For the small home shop, they're a valuable addition.
Which spindle diameters do you have? It's a lot easier to recommend tooling if folks know what the limitation of your machine is. I will say that at 2HP, the aluminum cutter heads with insert knives are worth a look if you go that route. I don't think you'll have enough power to spin really large, steel, cutter heads effectively. That's a lot of mass.


I just picked up a Rockwell HD 2 HP shaper, one speed, 10k RPM.
It came with a bucket of HSS knives. All are 1/2 and there are a lot of doubles and tripples.
Are these insert knives, or cutter heads
Nothing special, ogees, beads, flutes, rabbits, etc. Do you guys think that it's worth it to send any of these out for sharpening?
I'd send the rabbett's, or rebate cutters out. The others I would just keep and send out if needed.
Also, I'm thinking about getting something like an Amana Profile Pro. It's says max speed is 9k. It's not a problem to slow the spindle down, but I was wondering how the HSS or brazed carbide would like the lower speed.
Isn't the Amana an insert type cutter head that performs the same basic function as your rabbett's? Speed should be fine.

I realize I could just switch inserts. But, I'm thinking I'd still want to be able to run carbide, a dedicated round over would be nice. Any thoughts?
If you're not doing this for a business it makes sense. A person in their home garage shop may not put as much wood through a shaper as a "pro shop" will in a few days. A carbide head would last a lifetime in a home shop. Maybe not a rebate head, which would probably last a decade or so before it needed sharpening.
CMT makes an insert system cutter head. It might be worth checking out.

Thanks
Stan

[brent stanley]

I just picked up a Rockwell HD 2 HP shaper, one speed, 10k RPM. It came with a bucket of HSS knives. All are 1/2 and there are a lot of doubles and tripples. Nothing special, ogees, beads, flutes, rabbits, etc. Do you guys think that it's worth it to send any of these out for sharpening? Also, I'm thinking about getting something like an Amana Profile Pro. It's says max speed is 9k. It's not a problem to slow the spindle down, but I was wondering how the HSS or brazed carbide would like the lower speed. I realize I could just switch inserts. But, I'm thinking I'd still want to be able to run carbide, a dedicated round over would be nice. Any thoughts?

Thanks
Stan

Hi Stan, I notice in your first post that you say It's no problem to slow your spindle down, and this will open up doors for you as 10k is too fast for a lot of the most flexible, cost effective small shaper options. If you can get it down to the 7-7500 range you'll be in better shape.

I think Rod gives good advice though......get one of your existing heads sharpened up and see how the machine is working for you and then take it from there.

B

[Stan Coryell]

Thanks guys. I am not looking at running router bits. I only have a 1/2" spindle. I will at least order a 3/4" spindle, I believe a 1" can be had. I apologize for the confusion, I have all cutter heads and not inserts. You guys are definitely getting me in the right direction. I'll get it up and running first. Any recommendations on who to send the cutters to? I'm just outside Philadelphia. Can anyone suggest how many feet per minute I should be shooting for as far as the cutter head speed? That would tell me what RPMs to shoot for.

Thanks again,
Stan

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi, cutter speeds are normally between 40 and 75m/s.

That works out to about 8,000 to 15,000 feet/minute.

Below 40m/s there's an increased risk of kickback, above 75 m/s there's a risk of cutter failure. Note that tooling manufacturers specifications supersede this recommendation.

I've attached the chart from a shaper for illustration purposes.

Note that your shaper will not be large enough for some of the range in the chart.

My shaper has 3,000 6,000 8,000 and 10,000 RPM ranges. I don't own any cutters that can run at 10,000 RPM

396986Rod.

[Mike Cutler]

Thanks guys. I am not looking at running router bits. I only have a 1/2" spindle. I will at least order a 3/4" spindle, I believe a 1" can be had. I apologize for the confusion, I have all cutter heads and not inserts. You guys are definitely getting me in the right direction. I'll get it up and running first. Any recommendations on who to send the cutters to? I'm just outside Philadelphia. Can anyone suggest how many feet per minute I should be shooting for as far as the cutter head speed? That would tell me what RPMs to shoot for.

Thanks again,
Stan

Stan
I'm sure by now you've discovered that your shaper is obsolete and no longer supported by the OEM. Here is a link to a website that sells limited replacement parts, mostly spindles and cartridges. I believe he also operates an eBay shop. I've never used him personally, but he gets great reviews and feedback on other wood, and machinery restoration forums.

https://www.ae-tool.com

The 1" spindle can be had as either a spindle only, or as an integrated, single unit. Cartridge and spindle. As you can see on the linked site, even a refurbished one can be wicked expensive.

Hopefully someone can chime in about sharpening. I've never sent one out.

[Stan Coryell]

Rod
Thanks for the chart and speed recommendation. It clears a lot up. You have addressed my concern with reducing the speed. I don't think the small HSS cutters will like it. I will do some math when I get back home.

Mike,
Thank you as well. I found AE tools website last week. I think I'll follow the above recommendation and try the shaper out with the HSS cutters I have. There is a guy I use here in Philly for planer knives and saw blades. I'm not sure if he is still in business.

Some of the cutters look new except they were thrown in a bucket. If I touch them up by hand what final grit would you recommend?

Thanks,
Stan

[Jeff Duncan]

If you take a sharpening stone to the back of the profile you can probably get them plenty sharp enough to start using them. Eventually they need to be re-ground, especially if they burn or get chipped. But if the profile is still really clean, a few passes on the back can get you going. The grit won't make all that much difference, just use your best judgement. Taking a shaper knife to 10,000 grit instead of 1000 is not likely to show much difference. In fact when I have to do the occasional custom profile I grind my HSS knives on the bench grinder with a medium stone and I'm good to go.

good luck,
JeffD

[Stan Coryell]

Jeff,
Thanks, I was figuring the same. A few of them look new, they still have that black oxide coating. Unfortunately they were tossed in a bucket. The cutting edge is sort of pushed over. I my mind I was thinking closer to 600. Honestly, this isn't my field. should I shoot for 1000?

[Jared Sankovich]

If you want a insert head I would look at the amana 61068 (68mm) head. It comes with 1/2" reducers so you can run it on 1/2 and 3/4 spindles.

8000 RPM would right for the 2spd delta

[Jeff Duncan]

Jeff,
Thanks, I was figuring the same. A few of them look new, they still have that black oxide coating. Unfortunately they were tossed in a bucket. The cutting edge is sort of pushed over. I my mind I was thinking closer to 600. Honestly, this isn't my field. should I shoot for 1000?

If you have a 600 grit stone on hand, then I would go for it. Once you get the edge back to where you think it should be try it out on some softer woods like poplar and see how you make out. I'm not going to say the grit doesn't make any difference, but I've used knives from the popular Asian equipment supplier that looked like they came out of a crude mold and never saw any type of grinding on the edges and they still cut. They didn't cut great, but they did cut.

good luck,
jeffD