Paul Sellers an amateur woodworker

[Simon MacGowen]

Sellers labels himself in youtube or instagram (?) as an amateur woodworker, not a fine furniture maker or instructor. I wondered for some time why he does so. For a guy (from the UK) who has done work for the White House, I would not believe humbleness alone accounted for it. I think his latest blog post explains it. Check it out if you're interested.

For one thing, in my dictionary, professional woodworkers don't exist. The adjective "professional" carries a special meaning for recognition subject to accreditation requirements, etc. Some people like to refer woodworkers who do woodworking for a living or have been in the trade long enough as professional woodworkers. Sam Maloof, recognized with a MacArthur “genius” Grant, had simply "Woodworker" on his business card.

Many excellent furniture pieces seen in FW Reader's Gallery pages are done by amateur woodworkers. Sellers nails it right this time.

Simon

[Tom M King]

Definitions are as plentiful as belly buttons, and hardly any one worth arguing over. Much pride seems to be taken by the belief that one's own definition is the correct one though.

[Jim Koepke]

How about from a dictionary?


Definition #2: engaged in a specified activity as one's main paid occupation rather than as a pastime

It says nothing of the quality of one's work or ability.

Does Paul Sellers have an occupation outside of his teaching woodworking and doing woodworking as a main paid occupation?

jtk

[Andrew Hughes]

I like the word Amateur woodworker. To me it means for the love , to work with a passion.
I also like the word craftsman and often call myself the Unknown craftsman.
Some will call me a artist or a carpenter.
Im see myself as a Amateur woodworker unknown in my craft. :)

[Tony Wilkins]

But is he still eligible for the Olympics?

[Mel Fulks]

Well, some of the dictionaries of today are just guides to modern use. Amateur has always defined a person who did
something out of the love of doing it. Not for money.

[Steven Mikes]

It's not the 1980's anymore, professional athletes are allowed in the olympics :)

[steven c newman]

But, then Sherlock Holmes was also known as an "Amateur Detective.."

[Simon MacGowen]

But is he still eligible for the Olympics?

Given the way Chinese athletes are trained (on more than a full-time basis) and they are still allowed to compete in the Games, I more than suppose so.

Simon

[Noah Magnuson]

As others have mentioned, amateur carries a few shades of meaning, but professional implies that you make you living off of the trade. Amateur may, in some context, imply the quality of work, but may also simply imply non-professional.

Quality and skill is better designated by the apprentice-journeyman-master system of development (unfortunately nearly extinct in modern society).

Regardless of the range of opinions of Mr. Sellers and his presentation, he certainly qualifies as a 'master woodworker'. However, there are certainly those who have mastered various aspects of the craft to a higher degree and would better be described with additional qualifiers by their respective skills -- 'master joiner, finisher, chair maker, marqueteur (made that one up), etc.'

[Simon MacGowen]

When I need a professional opinion or any kind of professional advice on serious matters (medical issues, for example), I certainly would not trust the definition of any dictionary to guide my choice of advisor. By the dictionary definition you quoted, even my neighbor's son, a new grad., who works full time with pay more like a banking trainee can call himself a professional banker.

Simon

[Simon MacGowen]

But, then Sherlock Holmes was also known as an "Amateur Detective.."

Wiki classifies the fictional figure as a consulting detective. But as we know, anyone can call themselves a consultant. It is an occupational term widely misused to the extent that no one takes a business consultant title with any seriousness, unless a) the employer is one of the noted consultancy firms, and b) the business card includes qualifications such as an MBA or a CPA or the like.

Of course, some of the business cards that I have come across from very top executives or very rich people have nothing on them other than a name. No titles, no honorary qualifications, and some even with no contact info. (you are supposed to make contact through their personal or executive assistants first).

Simon

[Tom M King]

I wonder what Sellers' profession (occupation) is. I guess "definition" is a choice, as a lot of people think truth is.:rolleyes:

[Noah Magnuson]

I wonder what Sellers' profession (occupation) is. I guess "definition" is a choice, as a lot of people think truth is.:rolleyes:
I would say his occupation is a woodworking instructor. He doesn't make a living selling woodworking projects.

[Mel Fulks]

It's not the 1980's anymore, professional athletes are allowed in the olympics :)

Yes. But they still discriminate against professional wrestlers !

[Mark Hennebury]

Sam Maloof, recognized with a MacArthur “genius” Grant, had simply "Woodworker" on his business card.

Simon[/QUOTE]

Titles, self appointed or bestowed mean little in woodworking.

Case in point;

Who were the people that bestowed the "Genius" title to Sam? a jury of his peers? Judged against what yardstick?
Was his work judged against all others and determined to be head and shoulders above, on a higher level?
Or was it just a matter of "who you know" that got him nominated and approved, or just that he was well known? Or made himself well known?
Self promotion gets you a lot more recognition than any level of skill.
Who are the judges, what are their credentials?
What is the yardstick by which you determine the "best" woodworkers?
Do we all get judged or just the chosen few that are well connected?

[Mel Fulks]

Simon, agree with all. But they don't usually refer to them as business cards and they have them printed on expensive
linen "stock".

[Simon MacGowen]

Titles, self appointed or bestowed mean little in woodworking.

Case in point;

Who were the people that bestowed the "Genius" title to Sam? a jury of his peers? Judged against what yardstick?
Was his work judged against all others and determined to be head and shoulders above, on a higher level?
Or was it just a matter of "who you know" that got him nominated and approved, or just that he was well known? Or made himself well known?
Self promotion gets you a lot more recognition than any level of skill.
Who are the judges, what are their credentials?
What is the yardstick by which you determine the "best" woodworkers?
Do we all get judged or just the chosen few that are well connected?[/QUOTE]

This is what they say about how fellows are chosen:

https://www.macfound.org/programs/fellows/strategy/

More info. for those interested:

https://www.macfound.org/press/commentary/five-myths-about-macarthur-genius-grants/

Simon

[Simon MacGowen]

Yes. But they still discriminate against professional wrestlers !

It is really a joke, if not a scam, to suggest that the Games are for amateurs.

Simon

[Andrew Hughes]

Sam has work in the Smithsonian he gets all the titles.
Modern day Master, Expert, Genuis,Amateur.
His rocking chair design is still hundred years before it’s time. I doubt it will ever be bested

[Mark Hennebury]

Sam has work in the Smithsonian he gets all the titles.
Modern day Master, Expert, Genuis,Amateur.
His rocking chair design is still hundred years before it’s time. I doubt it will ever be bested

I understand that famous people get all the awards and accolades. And fame seems to be like a snowball that once started, just keeps growing and creates mythical creatures with unworldly powers.


And i understand that you like Sams chair, but your statement is an opinion, and in no way shows it to be better than any other rocker.

My point is once someone has a spotlight on them, everyone seems to have drunk the Koolaid and sees them as Gods. There are probably tens of thousands of people that do incredibly high quality work on a par with the ten famous ones.
Unless we are told, by some organization that they are "good" no one would believe it. Collectively or individually we have little ability to make judgments on our own and need direction for some "credible authority" to feel able speak.

Take modern art put in a garage sale, you wont get a second look, put it in a high end Gallery and organize a black tie event and everyone sees genius.
when you have an item that is not immediately measurable, and is open to interpretation and opinion, then the right kind of promotion is all that counts.

[Mark Hennebury]

Titles, self appointed or bestowed mean little in woodworking.

Case in point;

Who were the people that bestowed the "Genius" title to Sam? a jury of his peers? Judged against what yardstick?
Was his work judged against all others and determined to be head and shoulders above, on a higher level?
Or was it just a matter of "who you know" that got him nominated and approved, or just that he was well known? Or made himself well known?
Self promotion gets you a lot more recognition than any level of skill.
Who are the judges, what are their credentials?
What is the yardstick by which you determine the "best" woodworkers?
Do we all get judged or just the chosen few that are well connected?

This is what they say about how fellows are chosen:

https://www.macfound.org/programs/fellows/strategy/

More info. for those interested:

Simon, i didn't see anywhere it stated that he was judged by a jury of "woodworking" experts, against all other woodworkers, or even that his work was compared in anyway to any others, just that it was some anonymous people nominated him and more anonymous people awarded him.


Nominees are brought to the Program's attention through a constantly changing pool of invited external nominators chosen from as broad a range of fields and areas of interest as possible. They are encouraged to draw on their expertise, accomplishments, and breadth of experience to nominate the most creative people they know within their field and beyond.
Nominations are evaluated by an independent Selection Committee composed of about a dozen leaders in the arts, sciences, humanities professions, and for-profit and nonprofit communities. Each nomination is considered with respect to the program's selection criteria, based on the nomination letter along with original works of the nominee and evaluations from other experts collected by the program staff.
After a thorough, multi-step review, the Selection Committee makes its recommendations to the President and Board of Directors of the MacArthur Foundation. Announcement of the annual list is usually made in September. While there are no quotas or limits, typically 20 to 30 Fellows are selected each year. Since 1981, 1014 people have been named MacArthur Fellows.
Nominators, evaluators, and selectors all serve anonymously and their correspondence is kept confidential. This policy enables participants to provide their honest impressions independent of outside influence.

https://www.macfound.org/press/commentary/five-myths-about-macarthur-genius-grants/

Simon[/QUOTE]

[Andrew Hughes]

Mark remember he was doing this in 1950 - 1960. Before the internet his work was measured up against what was happening then.
In this area at that time the artist thing was happening and was hip. We had Millard sheets and other that would influence most anyone.
And sam busted free with creative thinking and his chairs.

[Simon MacGowen]

Nominations are evaluated by an independent Selection Committee composed of about a dozen leaders in the arts, sciences, humanities professions, and for-profit and nonprofit communities. Each nomination is considered with respect to the program's selection criteria, based on the nomination letter along with original works of the nominee and evaluations from other experts collected by the program staff.
After a thorough, multi-step review, the Selection Committee makes its recommendations to the President and Board of Directors of the MacArthur Foundation. Announcement of the annual list is usually made in September. While there are no quotas or limits, typically 20 to 30 Fellows are selected each year. Since 1981, 1014 people have been named MacArthur Fellows.
Nominators, evaluators, and selectors all serve anonymously and their correspondence is kept confidential. This policy enables participants to provide their honest impressions independent of outside influence.

https://www.macfound.org/press/commentary/five-myths-about-macarthur-genius-grants/

Simon[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]

This is how most grants and prize awards work, including the Nobel Prize. They set the rules of the game; if you had the money to finance any grant, you would do the same, wouldn't you? I would. That is how grants and prizes, such as the James Krenov Foundation grant or fellowship prize, work in the real world.

Simon

[Mark Hennebury]

Mark remember he was doing this in 1950 - 1960. Before the internet his work was measured up against what was happening then.
In this area at that time the artist thing was happening and was hip. We had Millard sheets and other that would influence most anyone.
And sam busted free with creative thinking and his chairs.


Andrew,
I like Sam's rocking chair, made several myself, and made some Krenov and nakashima style stuff. I found them all quite inspiring and enjoyed learning about how they thought and worked by making furniture in their different styles.
That was a long time ago, i learned bits here and there and moved on. I have since seen many really good woodworkers and many incredible pieces of work done by " nobodies" and have come to the conclusion that "rockstars" aren't any better, at all.
The fact that some people have the spotlight on them affects how we see them, a lot, and "our" opinions are not really ours, but influenced largely by the public.

[Mark Hennebury]

Nominations are evaluated by an independent Selection Committee composed of about a dozen leaders in the arts, sciences, humanities professions, and for-profit and nonprofit communities. Each nomination is considered with respect to the program's selection criteria, based on the nomination letter along with original works of the nominee and evaluations from other experts collected by the program staff.
After a thorough, multi-step review, the Selection Committee makes its recommendations to the President and Board of Directors of the MacArthur Foundation. Announcement of the annual list is usually made in September. While there are no quotas or limits, typically 20 to 30 Fellows are selected each year. Since 1981, 1014 people have been named MacArthur Fellows.
Nominators, evaluators, and selectors all serve anonymously and their correspondence is kept confidential. This policy enables participants to provide their honest impressions independent of outside influence.

https://www.macfound.org/press/commentary/five-myths-about-macarthur-genius-grants/

Simon[/QUOTE]

This is how most grants and prize awards work, including the Nobel Prize. They set the rules of the game; if you had the money to finance any grant, you would do the same, wouldn't you? I would. That is how grants and prizes, such as the James Krenov Foundation grant or fellowship prize, work in the real world.

Simon[/QUOTE]

Simon, So the whole " Genius" thing is a just an honoray title with no basis in any measurable achievement, and is purely the opinions of a few anonymous people that have no background in the profession.

And that is enough for the population to accept the recipient as a genius.

Like i said, its a bit of a joke.

[Simon MacGowen]

Simon, So the whole " Genius" thing is a just an honoray title with no basis in any measurable achievement, and is purely the opinions of a few anonymous people that have no background in the profession.

And that is enough for the population to accept the recipient as a genius.

Like i said, its a bit of a joke.[/QUOTE]

If you followed the second link, you would find out that the "Genius" thing is not the making of the Foundation...it was coined by the media. For that matter, some Nobel Prize awards have been criticized and the recipients not deemed qualified. They have the money, they have the rules, and of course, they have the final say, anonymous or not.

Simon

[Andrew Hughes]

Agreed so true. I don’t like that part of social media.
Good discussion I really enjoyed it thanks.
Andrew

[Eric Rathhaus]

Hmm. Wile E Coyote was also called a genius. Did other coyotes vote? Unless you believe in Plato's theory of forms, the designation of "genius" will always be subjective even if it's the subjective opinion of the entire woodworking community. In Maloof's case, his fame is quite a good measure of his genius to me. The fact that so many recognize and try to copy his style is both the source of his fame and the best measure of his genius.

[Mark Hennebury]

Hmm. Wile E Coyote was also called a genius. Did other coyotes vote? Unless you believe in Plato's theory of forms, the designation of "genius" will always be subjective even if it's the subjective opinion of the entire woodworking community. In Maloof's case, his fame is quite a good measure of his genius to me. The fact that so many recognize and try to copy his style is both the source of his fame and the best measure of his genius.


I guess that sums up my point pretty well: if you are willing to make the quantum leap to "the most well known and popular must by default be the most skilled", then you will overlook a lot of really talented people who are not so well known, and perhaps elevate those in the spotlight to a lofty height far above what they have earned by any merit.

If you google "river tables" or "pallet furniture" or "barn board furniture" you will see hundreds of millions of results, so they are quite popular and widely copied, "works of genius" by your criteria. Check out Youtube to see what are the most popular vidoes, it's mostly, people being stupid.

It would seem that in furniture making, advertising is king.

[Eric Rathhaus]

Mark, not sure if you intentionally misread my comment. I didn't say all popularity or fame is synonymous with genius or great skill. I said Maloof's particular genius is exemplified by the popularity and frequent imitation of his designs. I intentionally left out any discussion of his skill as a woodworker, both because I don't consider myself able to have any valid opinion on that front and because I don't consider "genius" to equate with "most skilled." Maybe u do, which fits with my suggestion that all these terms are ineluctably subjective.

[Van Huskey]

I always think discussions of genius are rather stilted. Discussion of the best are even worse. I always smile when a discussion of the greatest basketball player occurs and the discussion centers around players like Michael, Lebron, Chamberlain, Dr. J, Kareem and Russell. My smile is that most likely the best basketball player ever never played in the NBA and spent their life balling on some court like Rucker Park. The NBA requires one to step through certain hoops and some people aren't good with metaphorical hoops even if they are sublime at handling basketball hoops. I think Maloof's artistic vision within a craft was genius but it is subjective, and there is probably several Joe Hammonds* out there to Sam's Dr J. You can only judge what you are aware of.

* Joe "The Destroyer" was a famous Rucker player who put 50 points on Julius Irving in one game at The Rucker. How does one rank Randy Johnson or Babe Ruth without acknowledging Satchel Page or Josh Gibson? In the end, I think it is fair to suggest Sam was a genius but if someone cares to be a contrarian that is fair too. I usually do think it is incumbent on the "anti" to suggest a genius in their eyes since it leads to a more spirited discussion, it is a little too easy to say Patton was not a military genius without a counter suggestion of one who actually was/is in their view.


It is funny how the discussion of "professional" woodworkers seems to always lean to the semantic. I started a thread with a poll years ago to just get an idea of how many on SMC used WWing as their main source of income, I foolishly listed it as pro vs amateur and the VAST majority of the thread was devoted to the definition of professional. Some thought is required producing "professional" work others saw it as one that derives some/most/all of their income via woodwork of some fashion.

As for Paul I see him primarily as a professional content creator (though I admit I don't know his full story) just like Logan Paul or Casey Neistat but nowhere near as successful, which in and of itself seems odd but understandable in today's world.

[Jim Koepke]

it is a little too easy to say Patton was not a military genius without a counter suggestion of one who actually was/is in their view.

This could lend credence to the idea of genius not being anything more than people seeing ways to use common sense to great effect.

Of course for some common sense is awe inspiring.

jtk

[Mark Hennebury]

Mark, not sure if you intentionally misread my comment. I didn't say all popularity or fame is synonymous with genius or great skill. I said Maloof's particular genius is exemplified by the popularity and frequent imitation of his designs. I intentionally left out any discussion of his skill as a woodworker, both because I don't consider myself able to have any valid opinion on that front and because I don't consider "genius" to equate with "most skilled." Maybe u do, which fits with my suggestion that all these terms are ineluctably subjective.

Eric,
sorry if i have misread or misrepresented what you said.

I do believe that all of the terms attributed to Sam, Jim and George are meant to be interpreted in relation to the level of their woodworking skills.

[Frederick Skelly]

What an interesting thread!

Aren't we simply saying that Amount of Fame Doesn't Necessarily Equate to Level of Skill? If so, I think several of us agree on that. (Loved the basketball story Van!) Is the Wood Whisperer more skilled than our own George Wilson, Brian Holcome, Derek Cohen or any of a dozen others? And how are we gonna measure that? What constitutes skill and how do you compare 2 people's skills? That's a whole other kettle of fish, and another long thread!

I like Maloof's work. I like Krenov's. I like them because the shapes, textures, finishes and details connect with me. I don't like them because they're famous. But I probably "discovered" them because they were famous - they got the publicity, maybe because others saw them and felt connected to the work. It doesn't bug me that some foundation recognized Maloof - they didn't say he was a genius. They said his work was nice and wanted to support it. Ok. Their money, their rules. :)

Fred

[Andrew Hughes]

Well said Fred. :)

[Mark Hennebury]

. I usually do think it is incumbent on the "anti" to suggest a genius in their eyes since it leads to a more spirited discussion, it is a little too easy to say Patton was not a military genius without a counter suggestion of one who actually was/is in their view.

Van, you have made some good points.

I'm game; as the "anti" I hereby do my duty and submit for you consideration, Finn Juhl ( I believe that Sam would approve.)

Born January 30th in Denmark
Died May 17th 1989 in Denmark
"He was one of the leading figures in the creation of "Danish design" in the 1940s and he was the designer who introduced Danish Modern to America. "

396497

[Simon MacGowen]

Is the Wood Whisperer more skilled...
Fred

:eek:!

Simon

[Brian Holcombe]

Van, you have made some good points.

I'm game; as the "anti" I hereby do my duty and submit for you consideration, Finn Juhl ( I believe that Sam would approve.)

Born January 30th in Denmark
Died May 17th 1989 in Denmark
"He was one of the leading figures in the creation of "Danish design" in the 1940s and he was the designer who introduced Danish Modern to America. "

396497

Agree completely, though I’m a fan of both. I find it interesting that Finn Juhl’s early designs (Pelican chair specifically ) were initially rejected but ultimately accepted and eventually became synonymous with Danish modernism. His along with Wegner’s acceptance in the US were hard won, but without them the California crowd’s work may look much different (imo).

[Van Huskey]

Van, you have made some good points.

I'm game; as the "anti" I hereby do my duty and submit for you consideration, Finn Juhl ( I believe that Sam would approve.)

Born January 30th in Denmark
Died May 17th 1989 in Denmark
"He was one of the leading figures in the creation of "Danish design" in the 1940s and he was the designer who introduced Danish Modern to America. "

396497

Ah, the 45 chair. Given Danish Modern and MCM are the two greatest influences in my work you will not find a counter-argument to Juhl's genius from me! As Brian pointed out the California boys work would likely be far different without Juhl et al. I am not a huge fan of his chairs, though mainly because of the amount of upholstery, something I would buy but not attempt to make. My wife is a fan of the Chieftain chair along with the 48 and Baker Sofas. His sideboard and Glove cabinet speak more to me, although I have used dyed veneer instead of paint for a softer less bold look.

For me, I see genius in many woodworkers, even occasionally from youtube creators (especially in the MCM arena that exploded during the youtube expansion). Comparing genius is hard, just like recognizing and agreeing on genius. Michael was better on defense and Dr. J was better on offense but I would rather watch Irving play because I think offense is beautiful and defense is ugly and dirty, I am sure others vehemently disagree. I guess some people love Louis XIV and hate Danish Modern, such is life.

[Jason Martin Winnipeg]

This reminds me of The Highland Woodworker referring to Christopher Schwarz as a "master" woodworker. It really made me cringe, and probably made Chris cringe too.

http://thehighlandwoodworker.com/the-highland-woodworker-episode-38/

[Matt Lau]

I have a load of respect for Paul Sellers, but can't agree with him on being an amateur.
From his writing, he's been through the formal apprenticeship and journeyman stages under strict masters of the trade.
He's more than qualified to be a master of the craft.

I think that this qualifies the biblical teachings of--don't puff yourself up, lest others tear you down. Instead, let others praise your name.

[Van Huskey]

I have a load of respect for Paul Sellers, but can't agree with him on being an amateur.
From his writing, he's been through the formal apprenticeship and journeyman stages under strict masters of the trade.
He's more than qualified to be a master of the craft.

I think that this qualifies the biblical teachings of--don't puff yourself up, lest others tear you down. Instead, let others praise your name.

This is where we come full circle back to semantics. Does some entity confer the title of master woodworker? If so does he hold it? What is a strict master? A Master Plumber is a master plumber but it doesn't mean they are a genius plumber nor even a professional (as in does plumbing for money), but it does mean they should be able to do professional level plumbing, whatever that means.

In my mind amateur does not mean less than it simply means that one doesn't do it directly for money. All these adjectives are purely subjective unless and entity bestows a title, and while it is still likely subjective it should be based on some agreed-upon criteria.

If Sellers sells his work for a significant portion of his business then he in my mind is a professional woodworker, if he derives the vast majority of his income from youtube and other teaching then to me he is not a professional woodworker, he is a professional content creator and or teacher. Then again as I have pointed out I don't think amateur necessarily means less than. I know plenty of woodworkers that are far more skilled than many woodworkers that make all their income from woodworking. Paul may be being humble or he may simply be being factual when he uses amateur. It is an interesting query but at the same time it will be difficult or impossible to get everyone to agree on the meaning of all these adjectives/nouns.

[Brian Holcombe]

WRT titles, they may be meaningful to clients and students. I’m occasionally asked about my background, it’s usually in casual conversation but it’s not unusual to ask where someone came about their knowledge base.

[Matt Mattingley]

I fully respect worked perfected by my ancestors. Most often perfection is never duplicated. Perfection with art and science behind it becomes a law. I highly respect Newton, Galileo, Tesla, Ford, Mouton, Edison, Marette. I’m also very interested how Napoleon and Hitler created the following so strong. Napoleon was a very smart man with a in the ability to influence. Bring this onto modern-day… Give a man with a good vocals and platforms, can sell ice to an Eskimo. With modern day technology and the proper false promises and a couple million dollars in your pocket you can run a nation. There is gold around every corner. Just fool your customers and be able to sleep well every night... Arts, technology and laws of the world....

My rule of thumb is pushing yourself properly and give back to your community the best you can. You will be remembered like a Mike Holmes.

[Warren Mickley]

I have a load of respect for Paul Sellers, but can't agree with him on being an amateur.
From his writing, he's been through the formal apprenticeship and journeyman stages under strict masters of the trade.
He's more than qualified to be a master of the craft.

I think that this qualifies the biblical teachings of--don't puff yourself up, lest others tear you down. Instead, let others praise your name.

Sellers is very strong on self promotion; on woodworking technique, not so much.

[Frederick Skelly]

It might be fun to post a question on his blog asking him to explain why he calls himself an amateur. If he answers, it would certainly provide another perspective. :)

[Stewie Simpson]

It might be fun to post a question on his blog asking him to explain why he calls himself an amateur. If he answers, it would certainly provide another perspective. :)

This following insight might be of help;

Paul Sellers’ Biography

Overview

https://i2.wp.com/paulsellers.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/SellersCalander-5136-copy.jpg?resize=300%2C200&ssl=1

Paul Sellers describes himself as a lifelong amateur woodworker, his insistence on amateur status comes from the fact that whether he got paid or not, he always worked wood.

[Frederick Skelly]

Hmmmm. That's definitely another perspective, isn't it? Thanks Stewie!

[Stewie Simpson]

Paul Sellers served his trade apprenticeship under George Mycock, a master joiner.

[John Stankus]

My first thought as I skimmed this thread, is it more due to his status with the joiners guild/union? I know in some countries if you are not in good standing you can’t use the title. (Realtor vs real estate agent in the US comes to mind)

[Simon MacGowen]

Sellers is very strong on self promotion; on woodworking technique, not so much.

No doubt about it on the first point, judging from the youtube following he has managed to create that no other hand-tool content creators before or after him have come close to achieving. I have no inside knowledge but the fact that he has moved to a new and much bigger studio suggests no other online classes are close to his in size.

His self promotion is as much business-driven as his conviction that he can energize a new generation of hand-tool woodworkers, as Norm Abram did with his TV show, something, in my take, not even Roy Underhill managed to do with his show. Chris Schwarz started the wave of interest in traditional woodworking in print, but it is Sellers through his blog and free youtube videos who actually made hand tool woodworking look totally doable and easy to learn for many.

As for his techniques, everyone is entitled to their assessments.

Simon

[Simon MacGowen]

This following insight might be of help;

Paul Sellers’ Biography

Overview

https://i2.wp.com/paulsellers.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/SellersCalander-5136-copy.jpg?resize=300%2C200&ssl=1

Paul Sellers describes himself as a lifelong amateur woodworker, his insistence on amateur status comes from the fact that whether he got paid or not, he always worked wood.

He also calls himself a lifestyle woodworker. Along a similar line, he explained that woodworking has always been part of his life, raising his family, and his lifestyle is that of woodworking. I know of no other woodworkers who use that kind of label to describe themselves. May be that is his way of saying what we call fanatic or die-hard woodworkers.

Simon

[steven c newman]

Like me...it can keep Paul out of the local Pubs ( because I'm too tired to go, and no money to buy..)

Seem to be splitting more hairs, than the people making Bamboo Whisks in Japan.....

If anyone describes the word Amateur...it would be a description of me.....

[Charles Guest]

If he were employed in your small, professional furniture shop I imagine that you could hand Sellers drawings and specs for a reasonably complex furniture job that he'd never made before, along with a time budget, and he would deliver the piece on budget and without having to buy a new tool, read a book to remind himself how to cut a certain joint, research Moxon, Nicholson, and Wearing as sanity checks for technique, decide he's ditching oilstones in favor of waterstones and everything else is on hold until this is complete, so on and so forth.

Very little head or a$$ scratching. Zero reinvention of various wheels.

[Mark Hennebury]

If he were employed in your small, professional furniture shop I imagine that you could hand Sellers drawings and specs for a reasonably complex furniture job that he'd never made before, along with a time budget, and he would deliver the piece on budget and without having to buy a new tool, read a book to remind himself how to cut a certain joint, research Moxon, Nicholson, and Wearing as sanity checks for technique, decide he's ditching oilstones in favor of waterstones and everything else is on hold until this is complete, so on and so forth.

Very little head or a$$ scratching. Zero reinvention of various wheels.

Got to love that imagination

[Paul Bent]

If he were employed in your small, professional furniture shop I imagine that you could hand Sellers drawings and specs for a reasonably complex furniture job that he'd never made before, along with a time budget, and he would deliver the piece on budget and without having to buy a new tool, read a book to remind himself how to cut a certain joint, research Moxon, Nicholson, and Wearing as sanity checks for technique, decide he's ditching oilstones in favor of waterstones and everything else is on hold until this is complete, so on and so forth.

Very little head or a$$ scratching. Zero reinvention of various wheels.

George Carlin lives... :)

[Simon MacGowen]

without having to buy a new tool, read a book to remind himself how to cut a certain joint, research Moxon, Nicholson, and Wearing as sanity checks for technique, decide he's ditching oilstones in favor of waterstones and everything else is on hold until this is complete, so on and so forth.

Very little head or a$$ scratching. Zero reinvention of various wheels.

That is why Sellers isn't necessarily a popular guy in some circles which depend on consumerism or reinvention to advance their sales goals, rather than refurnishing old Stanleys....

Simon

[Richard Jones]

................Chris Schwarz started the wave of interest in traditional woodworking in print .............

Respectfully, I would question the finality of that statement.

[Simon MacGowen]

Respectfully, I would question the finality of that statement.

I made that suggestion (his influence IN PRINT) based on:

1) His PW blog, I believe, has produced the most number of posts on hand tools, and in those early days of blogging, I think few could match his output (and I presume, as part of PW, he had the largest audience among all hand-tool bloggers)

2) He single-handedly moved PW from a power-tool publication to a hybrid one, and produced Woodworking, a magazine that covered only traditional woodworking. Before him, no publications had focused on handtools. He started the trend, and other magazines followed suit to include the handwork content.

Anyone who thinks someone else in those days had influenced the interest in traditional woodworking (in the publishing world or social media) more than Chris is welcome to share their observations.

Simon

[Tom M King]

Aldren Watson for me, before there was an internet.

[Andrew Hughes]

I always thought Art Espenet Carpenter produced some nice work. I think he might have been the one to make up the bandsaw box.
He had a good soul and it showed in his work.
Another moden day master.
Here’s his wish bone chairs.

[Van Huskey]

If he were employed in your small, professional furniture shop I imagine that you could hand Sellers drawings and specs for a reasonably complex furniture job that he'd never made before, along with a time budget, and he would deliver the piece on budget and without having to buy a new tool, read a book to remind himself how to cut a certain joint, research Moxon, Nicholson, and Wearing as sanity checks for technique, decide he's ditching oilstones in favor of waterstones and everything else is on hold until this is complete, so on and so forth.

Very little head or a$$ scratching. Zero reinvention of various wheels.

Well, he wouldn't have the choice to make since he is fully invested in the diamond approach. His sharpening routine alone is enough to raise the ire of a lot of people.

[Van Huskey]

Respectfully, I would question the finality of that statement.

I can certainly see where some could argue he didn't start it but I think he turned up the volume more than anyone in print in recent years. His articles and blog have moved the needle considerably in many areas, not the least of which is bench design. The Schwarz since he is still in his discovery phase (many of us never leave it) has continually redefined the modern WWing bench. You will see his fluid influence all over the web. Then how can one argue the influence of Lost Art Press.

[Van Huskey]

No doubt about it on the first point, judging from the youtube following he has managed to create that no other hand-tool content creators before or after him have come close to achieving. I have no inside knowledge but the fact that he has moved to a new and much bigger studio suggests no other online classes are close to his in size.



Off the top of my head, one must at least acknowledge The Samurai Carpenter, while he has a different approach and not 100% handtool (though his content is pretty much 100% handtool) he does have basically twice as many subs as Paul.

I will say the way to youtube views and subs in the WWing arena is to build a beautiful and rather complex bench. It is usually the easiest way to 1m views. Third Coast Craftsman is an excellent example, his workbench video became his most watched video quickly and on its way to 1m.

[Richard Jones]

I can certainly see where some could argue he didn't start it but I think he turned up the volume more than anyone in print in recent years. His articles and blog have moved the needle considerably in many areas, not the least of which is bench design. The Schwarz since he is still in his discovery phase (many of us never leave it) has continually redefined the modern WWing bench. You will see his fluid influence all over the web. Then how can one argue the influence of Lost Art Press.

^^^ Don't get me wrong, I'm not demeaning or belittling the extent of his influence and I agree with @Van Huskey with the "turned up the volume" phrase. No doubt. I only disagreed with the statement as written, as if it were passed down from On High. I'm probably just misreading the internet "tone".

As far as Mr. Sellers, I don't agree with everything he says/does. As with anyone that I look at in woodworking, I take what I think is good and leave the rest. Isn't this pretty much true of anyone? There is no one in any hobby/sport/business that is infallible in every aspect. For instance, I use Chris Gochnour's 'method' (perhaps he didn't invent it, but I still like it and you have to call it something) of dovetailing as it seems straightforward and logical to me and the end results are what I'm looking for. Mr. Sellers' way isn't for me, at least at this stage of my journey. Is it the best for you? Maybe, maybe not. Your call, not mine.

"Anyone who thinks someone else in those days had influenced the interest in traditional woodworking (in the publishing world or social media) more than Chris is welcome to share their observations." Thanks for the permission, but it's not a contest, is it? If so, I hope there's a good prize, like a Sellers-refurbished #4 smoother or even a cheap Chinese 151.

I agree with his blog thoughts on 'amateur' as well. At least, most of them.............

Excellent thread, my thanks to the OP.

[Simon MacGowen]

Off the top of my head, one must at least acknowledge The Samurai Carpenter, while he has a different approach and not 100% handtool (though his content is pretty much 100% handtool) he does have basically twice as many subs as Paul.

I will say the way to youtube views and subs in the WWing arena is to build a beautiful and rather complex bench. It is usually the easiest way to 1m views. Third Coast Craftsman is an excellent example, his workbench video became his most watched video quickly and on its way to 1m.
I believe theirs are not online classes like Sellers' which you have to subscribe for a fee. I might be not clear enough when I wrote about Sellers' following.

Simon

[Simon MacGowen]

As far as Mr. Sellers, I don't agree with everything he says/does. As with anyone that I look at in woodworking, I take what I think is good and leave the rest. Isn't this pretty much true of anyone? There is no one in any hobby/sport/business that is infallible in every aspect. For instance, I use Chris Gochnour's 'method' (perhaps he didn't invent it, but I still like it and you have to call it something) of dovetailing as it seems straightforward and logical to me and the end results are what I'm looking for. Mr. Sellers' way isn't for me, at least at this stage of my journey. Is it the best for you? Maybe, maybe not. Your call, not mine.



I absolutely agree that cherry-picking (if you know what you are doing) is a very good way of improving skills, including most types of skills (at least that was how I learned from my bosses and mentors in the younger days; not every boss in my path was a model executive).

Sellers uses shop-made guides in some cases for dovetailing as well as mortising. Absolutely not my thing, though he was doing that to suit some of his less-experienced learners. But i think the approach is wrong-footed to start with. If the guide is really the approach, tell people to buy the magnetic guides from LV or Barron. But it is Sellers who popularized the "knife wall" technique even though some authors including Tage Frid (Vol. 1, I think) wrote about it long before him.

Yet there are indeed blind followers (not specific to Sellers), and they will nod even if their "masters" talk nonsense. I see endless examples of that in social media penned by the better known bloggers or instagramers, including the Festool instagram. Idolization came to mind.

Simon

[Richard Jones]

^^ Agree with all of that. Glad you mentioned about Mr. Frid. Indeed, I think that's the first time I ran across using a marking knife or chisel for chopping, paring, etc. Guess I should dust off that gem this weekend.

FWIW, my definition of amateur vs professional has always been very simplistic: amateurs as a hobby, pros get paid. Both can love what they do, and payment comes in many forms. Maybe I can become a professional amateur...........

[Simon MacGowen]

I will say the way to youtube views and subs in the WWing arena is to build a beautiful and rather complex bench. It is usually the easiest way to 1m views. Third Coast Craftsman is an excellent example, his workbench video became his most watched video quickly and on its way to 1m.

I don't understand why people need a "beautiful" bench...in fact too beautiful a bench would discourage one to work on it, in my view, just as is in the case of a boutique tool. Some people spend a huge amount of money or time on their benches. I never want to spend more time in doing shop work than in doing furniture pieces. May be that also explained partly why Shopnotes no longer existed....

A practical bench without any bells and whistles is good for me, but I must say I don't like benches that look more like a worn chopping board.

Simon

[Tony Wilkins]

Besides, I thought the term for both the videos and the woodworking was now properly ‘maker’.

[Frederick Skelly]

Besides, I thought the term for both the videos and the woodworking was now properly ‘maker’.

Only if you're a Millenial. :)

[steven c newman]

Not me.....I am just an average Amateur Wood Worker.....I don't even make videos...

[Van Huskey]

I believe theirs are not online classes like Sellers' which you have to subscribe for a fee. I might be not clear enough when I wrote about Sellers' following.

Simon

Jesse (The Samurai Carpenter) has an online "school", he calls it Samurai Skills. He seems to be set up using the Wood Whisperer model which is smart since Marc and his wife are the king and queen of monetizing WWing content creation. Looking at raw numbers Jesse almost certainly makes a good deal more money on youtube than Paul but the audience isn't exactly the same. There is quite a bit of money to be made on youtube if done right and you have to be lucky as well. AvE makes over $10K a month just via Patreon just doing his tool teardowns.

I certainly have no idea how many people are subscribing to an individuals paid classes so Paul may indeed have a much larger paid subscriber base.

[Derek Cohen]

It's really easy to get cynical about much of what is presented on YouTube under the disguise of Woodworking. It is the age of DIY video and bareing your innermost soul on the Internet (including these fori) for millions to view, and anyone with a smart phone can do it if they have chutzpah, nerve or are enough narcissism. Some are in it for the money, some the glamour and adhoration, and some just find this a way to communicate. Separating the wheat from the chaff is only an issue when you can tell - and care about - the difference, and this is the likely reason why those on fori such as this will end up so critical. I imagine that ohers do not take it so seriously.

Making videos is not an easy job. I take my hat off to those who make up the lack of substance with flash. Have you tried to make a video? I made a few to illustrate a few techniques. I think this effort produced 3 1/2 followers. It's a good thing I have a day job. Very amateurish. There's that word! I am clearly an amateur.

I suspect that it is common for those with hard-won skills - that take time and effort to develope - to feel resentful of those who claim the same expertise but appear to have found a shortcut. It happens in many domains. It is rife on the woodworking fori, but it is the same in professions such as mine - for example, I read psych reports every day where it is evident that diagnoses were based on some new ubeaut psychometric test - usually a bunch of them - where I may (with 40 years of experience) just ask a few questions, taking a fraction of the time. I imagine it is the same in engineering, education (well, I kjnow the answer to this one), drafting, and a few others that come to mind. Craftsmanship in joinery is easily replaced by one of the many joinery machines that are available today ... biscuits, dominos ... table saw cut finger joints instead of handcut dovetails ....

There has long been religeous wars of some kind in all walks of life. They abound in woodwork, with hand vs power as one common example. Clearly to me it is more often about the amateur joining a group and having a conferred status than a professional attitude. I attended a joinery workshop last weekend run by a friend of mine, who is a professional furniture maker - there's that word again. He builds furniture for a living. High end stuff, and he is good at it. Very good. He also in demand to run workshops for LN in the USA. He is not a plonker. We talked about what makes the better joint, dovetails or finger joints? It is by far the finger joint. Simply, there is more glue area. Which is stronger, an agricultural-looking 1:5 dovetail joint or a "London" slim 1:8? Again, it is the slim 1:8 .. because there is less end grain and more side grain involved. There is a place for dominos ... he is one of the best I have seen with a dovetail saw, but he loves the Domino machine. He has jigs for a router table and shaper. In short, he uses all tools that get him across the line of time without sacrificing quality. He does not appear to have a side to take with regard to tools, on the other hand he would be just as outspoken about poor grain matching, ill-chosen joinery methods, and poorly though through design. I would argue that the "professional" has learned this. "Amateurish" becomes an obvious opposite.

I think I had better end this ramble at this point. I am hoping there is some response to the points I made (did I make points or just vent?).

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Eric Rathhaus]

Hi Derek - I do have one response, which is quite pedantic. But I believe the plural of forum, a second declension noun, is fora. :)

[Frederick Skelly]

A well written and interesting ramble Derek! I liked this point: "In short, he uses all tools that get him across the line of time without sacrificing quality." To me, this illustrates two key components of being a professional - high quality work, done as a way to make a living. Just because I make a living doing construction (for example), doesn't make me a pro. There are lotsa shlocks (plonkers?) doing construction and remodelling.

Aside: I still don't get why Sellers calls himself an amateur.

Fred

[Derek Cohen]

Thanks Fred.


Aside: I still don't get why Sellers calls himself an amateur.

Sellers can call himself whatever he wants. I believe that he has earned the right to do so. As did Sam Maloof, who referred to himself as "a woodworker".

Sellers will divide woodworkers because he is many things (and represents many groups). He is a hand tooler who eschews power in public (yet it seems that he has power tools and uses them in private). He espouses common and basic tools (such as his beloved #4 over all others). Some will love the simplicity and focus on basic craftsmanship, while others see this as an unnecessary oversimplification which ignores the value of better tools (such as a #7 or a decent shoulder plane) or hard won hand skills (without the jigs he uses for joinery). He preaches to the beginner and those who are starting out without funds, and yet is building a financial empire on their backs. The cynical part of me sees his use of "lifestyle" and "amateur" as a sales gimmick, a schtick. Another says that he brings a lot of pleasure to many, and that is a good thing.

With so many contradictions, he is bound to to get up the nose of someone.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Simon MacGowen]

Hi Derek - I do have one response, which is quite pedantic. But I believe the plural of forum, a second declension noun, is fora. :)

Depends on whether or not one believes in the case of reality winning over idealism: https://grammarist.com/usage/fora-forums/

A friend of mine, a veteran in journalism and part-time instructor, insists that most senior newspaper editors he knows will substitute "fora" with "forums" without a second thought.

Simon

[Warren Mickley]

Depends on whether or not one believes in the case of reality winning over idealism: https://grammarist.com/usage/fora-forums/

A friend of mine, a veteran in journalism and part-time instructor, insists that most senior newspaper editors he knows will substitute "fora" with "forums" without a second thought.

Simon

I doubt Eric would have said anything if Derek had used the term forums. But Derek wrote fori, which is the plural of forus, not the plural of forum.

[Edwin Santos]

Aside: I still don't get why Sellers calls himself an amateur.

Fred

Hi Fred,
I'd offer you two answers -
1. He's an amateur woodworker but a professional educator. He appears to earn income from educating, but not from building things out of wood for clients as a trade per se.

2. Paul Sellers is British, and the (traditional) distinction between amateur and professional in the UK is different than that in the United States. To simplify the distinction, in traditional Britain, the professional is a tradesman, who may be very competent, but is still a tradesman fulfilling a task on a repetitive basis in the performance of a trade. An amateur is working for a higher purpose, perhaps like an artist, for the love of and commitment to the craft. In this definition, the factor of money and income only degrades the purity of this commitment. This attitude is commonly held by artists. I would bet good money (ha!) that Sellers aspires to this latter definition being a purist and traditionalist. Maybe his reference has more to do with attitude than literal pay vs. no pay.

These are just my speculations, but there you have them. I wonder if David Charlesworth could illuminate us further on whether the cultural theory holds any water. Best,
Edwin

BTW, I met Mr. Krenov and attended one of his lectures. He unequivocally referred to himself as an amateur woodworker. By way of example, he said he made and gave away dozens, maybe hundreds of hand planes, pouring his care into the construction of each, and would never dream of charging money for one. Although he didn't care for the term artist either.

[Derek Cohen]

I doubt Eric would have said anything if Derek had used the term forums. But Derek wrote fori, which is the plural of forus, not the plural of forum.

I hang my head in shame :) I usually use "fora". May I plead a senior moment?

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Edwin Santos]

My smile is that most likely the best basketball player ever never played in the NBA and spent their life balling on some court like Rucker Park. The NBA requires one to step through certain hoops and some people aren't good with metaphorical hoops even if they are sublime at handling basketball hoops. I think Maloof's artistic vision within a craft was genius but it is subjective, and there is probably several Joe Hammonds* out there to Sam's Dr J. You can only judge what you are aware of.



Making a case for the (troubled) genius of Earl "The Goat" Manigault

[Simon MacGowen]

I hang my head in shame :) I usually use "fora". May I plead a senior moment?

Regards from Perth

Derek

I did see your use of "fori" but thought it was a typo (as in a mistake of typing).

Simon

[Simon MacGowen]

Hi Fred,
I'd offer you two answers -
1. He's an amateur woodworker but a professional educator. He appears to earn income from educating, but not from building things out of wood for clients as a trade per se.

His current main source of income is indeed from his Masterclasses (youtube, too, I guess). But before he started teaching in the US, he made wooden products to sell...one of which was walking canes, lots of them, by the hundreds to State Parks and Wildlife Parks, gift shops and tourist centers alone. He could make thousands of dollars selling canes and whatnot in just a weekend at a wood/craft festival or the like in Texas(?) back in the old days.

But his more famous story was that he was commissioned to make a few furniture pieces for the White House's Permanent Collection 10 years ago or so. Quite an achievement for a fellow who is not an American.

These days no fellows can draw people to buy a woodworking tool (known or little known, new or vintage) than two woodworkers through social media: One is Sellers (and the other is Schwarz). Sellers could have made product sponsorship another major source of his income if he had gone that path. Look at what happened to the Aldi chisels. For the record, Sellers does not promote wax or stickers.:D

Simon

[Mark Hennebury]

There are craftsmen in business and businessmen in crafts.

[Matt Mattingley]

There are craftsmen in business and businessmen in crafts.

I couldn’t not have said this any better. Mark,you’ve hit this with a homerun!!!

The problem I have is, when your the top 2% don’t portray yourself as an novice.

My point is... would you rather Wayne Gretzky be your mentor or the shady guy “just as a fill-in” on the other team?

I have a pro basketball video that switched the odds for entertainment.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQ01b2ZDBVY

or

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wvR2pbU2sdU

or

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_6gXCjRXMss

[Van Huskey]

Making a case for the (troubled) genius of Earl "The Goat" Manigault

When Kareem says you are the best player ever one needs to take notice...

Earl encapsulated my point in a quote "For every Michael Jordan, there's an Earl Manigualt. We all can't make it. Someone has to fail. I was the one"

[Van Huskey]

By the way we have another July 25th 1965... during this threads life Paul has gone electric, just like Dylan did over 50 years ago. He did pick the correct machine though... and I will be watching the bandsaw videos intently.

[Richard Jones]

Derek wrote: ".......In short, he uses all tools that get him across the line of time without sacrificing quality..................."

Mr. Skelly also quoted this (see above). I would dare to modify it a bit: "........In short, he uses all tools and techniques that get him across the line of time without sacrificing quality....." I hope I'm not overstepping here.

[Van Huskey]

I have a pro basketball video that switched the odds for entertainment.



While Uncle Drew (Kyrie Irving) way overmatches the competition in the Pepsi videos if he had done that at the Rucker or Happy Warrior courts the results wouldn't not have been so lopsided and it is quite possible Uncle Drew would have been shut down.

As for the mentor issue just because someone is "The Great One" doesn't mean they are a good mentor or teacher. From a pure CV point of view most everyone here would recognize the name of one of my professional mentors from the national political stage, he was one of the best in our field but a horrid mentor/teacher. I learned ten times as much from guys with 25% of his ability.

[Van Huskey]

These days no fellows can draw people to buy a woodworking tool (known or little known, new or vintage) than two woodworkers through social media: One is Sellers (and the other is Schwarz). Sellers could have made product sponsorship another major source of his income if he had gone that path. Look at what happened to the Aldi chisels. For the record, Sellers does not promote wax or stickers.:D

Simon


I am not sure about that. Jimmy D, Marc S, April W and Jay B each have MUCH more SM exposure than Chris and Paul combined. Get any one of them to hawk a sub $10 item like the Aldi chisels and I bet they could move the needle more. Selling something cheap but hardy is mainly about eyeballs. Subs give you an idea of the number of people that value the person's opinion enough to continue to watch. Now I think had say Marc introduced the Aldi chisels to the world there might be less discussion by the usual suspects on handtool forums. I will say that if Paul is monetizing youtube properly he should be making more on his youtube account than his Masterclasses. I bet Marc makes more on The Guild. None of this has anything to do with ones actual woodworking talent where Paul is certainly in another class altogether.

[Frederick Skelly]

Hi Fred,
I'd offer you two answers -
1. He's an amateur woodworker but a professional educator. He appears to earn income from educating, but not from building things out of wood for clients as a trade per se.

2. Paul Sellers is British, and the (traditional) distinction between amateur and professional in the UK is different than that in the United States. To simplify the distinction, in traditional Britain, the professional is a tradesman, who may be very competent, but is still a tradesman fulfilling a task on a repetitive basis in the performance of a trade. An amateur is working for a higher purpose, perhaps like an artist, for the love of and commitment to the craft. In this definition, the factor of money and income only degrades the purity of this commitment. This attitude is commonly held by artists. I would bet good money (ha!) that Sellers aspires to this latter definition being a purist and traditionalist. Maybe his reference has more to do with attitude than literal pay vs. no pay.

These are just my speculations, but there you have them. I wonder if David Charlesworth could illuminate us further on whether the cultural theory holds any water. Best,
Edwin

BTW, I met Mr. Krenov and attended one of his lectures. He unequivocally referred to himself as an amateur woodworker. By way of example, he said he made and gave away dozens, maybe hundreds of hand planes, pouring his care into the construction of each, and would never dream of charging money for one. Although he didn't care for the term artist either.

Good points Edwin. Especially on the difference between American and Brittish English - I never even considered that "amateur" might literally mean something different to Mr. Sellers. It's a point worth considering. Though as others have said, the man's certainly earned the right to call himself whatever he'd like. (How many of us get to contribute to the White House collection, after all?)

Wish I could have studied with Mr. Krenov - even just for a weekend. I've watched him lecture on video, but I'll bet he was better in person.

Fred

[Frederick Skelly]

Derek wrote: ".......In short, he uses all tools that get him across the line of time without sacrificing quality..................."

Mr. Skelly also quoted this (see above). I would dare to modify it a bit: "........In short, he uses all tools and techniques that get him across the line of time without sacrificing quality....." I hope I'm not overstepping here.

I like your addition Richard. Very true!
Fred

[Simon MacGowen]

I am not sure about that. Jimmy D, Marc S, April W and Jay B each have MUCH more SM exposure than Chris and Paul combined. .

Excuse my ignorance...is these guys' focus mostly on traditional woodworking? Since this discussion takes place in the Neanderthal section, all my references to people are about those whose practice (other than for the purpose of stock preparation) and key interest are in or with hand tools. I don't think I have seen their names in any traditional woodworking events organized by various parties such as LN, FW, Benchcrafted, PWW, etc. in the past decade. Neither did their names ring a bell to me when I tried to relate them to woodworking schools such as Marc Adams, North Bennet Street School. etc.

Simon

[Simon MacGowen]

By the way we have another July 25th 1965... during this threads life Paul has gone electric, just like Dylan did over 50 years ago. He did pick the correct machine though... and I will be watching the bandsaw videos intently.

There is a misconception about Sellers's view on power tools. Well before his latest bandsaw episode, Sellers has maintained that he does use power tools. Of course, other than the cordless drills, he is rarely seen in any of his videos working with a power tool or machine. In his old place, he had given most of the lumber preparation (jointing/thicknessing) to another woodworker to do who happened to be operating out of the same building. I am pretty sure that unless he does not sleep, he is not doing stock preparation for his online class/youtube all by hand. It is most likely that stock preparation is the responsibility of someone else either in his team or an outsider.

Simon

[Mark Hennebury]

Sellers labels himself in youtube or instagram (?) as an amateur woodworker, not a fine furniture maker or instructor. I wondered for some time why he does so.
Simon

Simon, To answer your original question;

One could call themselves an amateur to convey the idea of the motivation with which they approach their work.

To show which camp they belong to.

They are primarily motivated by either, the love of what they do ( amateur) or by the love of what they get for what they do ( professional)

Both groups can do good work and both can get paid, the difference is in what is the priority driving force of the person.

[Charles Guest]

Here's a professional furniture shop, with a name, a history, and a brand (for point of reference):

https://www.barnsley-furniture.co.uk/

The people employed in the shop, those who've finished an apprenticeship and were offered a permanent position, are professional furniture-makers as of course are the principals.

https://www.barnsley-furniture.co.uk/about/annual-review/

[Simon MacGowen]

Here's a professional furniture shop, with a name, a history, and a brand (for point of reference):

https://www.barnsley-furniture.co.uk/

The people employed in the shop, those who've finished an apprenticeship and were offered a permanent position, are professional furniture-makers as of course are the principals.

https://www.barnsley-furniture.co.uk/about/annual-review/

Alan Peters who spent 5 years there!

Some of their pieces have the David Savage feel.

Simon

[Mark Hennebury]

Earnest Gimson. Edward Barnsley, Jacque Emile Ruhlmanm

396857 396859 396858396860

[Mark Hennebury]

Here's a professional furniture shop, with a name, a history, and a brand (for point of reference):

https://www.barnsley-furniture.co.uk/

The people employed in the shop, those who've finished an apprenticeship and were offered a permanent position, are professional furniture-makers as of course are the principals.

https://www.barnsley-furniture.co.uk/about/annual-review/


Very nice stuff, its nice to see that they get well paid for it too.

[Charles Guest]

Very nice stuff, its nice to see that they get well paid for it too.

Wouldn't be bad to land a paid apprenticeship:

Wage

Foundation Apprentices receive the current National Minimum Wage apprentice rate. Foundation Apprentices are entitled to twenty days of paid holiday in a year, plus the eight bank holidays.

Hours

The Workshop day is from 8 am to 4.30 pm. Apprentices may use the workshop after hours to work on their own projects providing they have obtained permission and there is another person in the workshop.

Tools

Apprentices have their own bench and tool storage area. We provide all the tools apprentices will need. They gradually build up their own kit but are advised to try out workshop ones before buying their own.

[Simon MacGowen]

Wouldn't be bad to land a paid apprenticeship:

Wage

Foundation Apprentices receive the current National Minimum Wage apprentice rate. Foundation Apprentices are entitled to twenty days of paid holiday in a year, plus the eight bank holidays.


The current rate is 3.7 British pound per hour, or less than $5 US.

Simon

[Mark Hennebury]

The current rate is 3.7 British pound per hour, or less than $5 US.

Simon

Perspective is everything
https://www.notgoingtouni.co.uk/advice/apprenticeships-past-and-present-in-britain-495

[Simon MacGowen]

Perspective is everything
https://www.notgoingtouni.co.uk/advice/apprenticeships-past-and-present-in-britain-495

The 3.7 pounds is above half of the current minimum wage in the UK (8 pounds plus starting 2019).

In my part of the world, the closest thing to apprenticeship is coop-programs where university students take a job as part of their 4 or 5-year degree programs. The coops are paid no less than the minimum wages, and the coop programs I know pay a monthly salary similar to an average worker makes (earning minimum rates). Jobs are almost guaranteed after graduation (because of networking, corporate evaluation or hands-on experience).

I do consider a lower rate for the apprenticeships a good thing, because only the determined ones will apply for admission.


Simon

[Van Huskey]

Excuse my ignorance...is these guys' focus mostly on traditional woodworking? Since this discussion takes place in the Neanderthal section, all my references to people are about those whose practice (other than for the purpose of stock preparation) and key interest are in or with hand tools. I don't think I have seen their names in any traditional woodworking events organized by various parties such as LN, FW, Benchcrafted, PWW, etc. in the past decade. Neither did their names ring a bell to me when I tried to relate them to woodworking schools such as Marc Adams, North Bennet Street School. etc.

Simon

Mea Culpa, I tend to forget the handtool forum is more focused than the powertool forum which tends to run wide since it includes general woodworking.

[Van Huskey]

There is a misconception about Sellers's view on power tools. Well before his latest bandsaw episode, Sellers has maintained that he does use power tools. Of course, other than the cordless drills, he is rarely seen in any of his videos working with a power tool or machine. In his old place, he had given most of the lumber preparation (jointing/thicknessing) to another woodworker to do who happened to be operating out of the same building. I am pretty sure that unless he does not sleep, he is not doing stock preparation for his online class/youtube all by hand. It is most likely that stock preparation is the responsibility of someone else either in his team or an outsider.

Simon

No mea culpa here, I thought of the analogy carefully. July 25th was not the first time Dylan picked up an electric guitar, it is the date he first performed wired for the world.

If you have some time to waste the replies Paul makes to the comments on his video are rather interesting. He seems at once very defensive of his power tool usage and at the same time demonizes machines, he also makes an odd comment about not considering them tools. There was also some reference to our bodies 25 senses and how machines are an assault (<paraphrased verb) on all of them.

I am truly looking forward to the remainder of the series, partially because I like to guess ones position on the many bandsaw "points of disagreement". I am pretty sure I know how he will land on tension, blade selection, guides and the rest of the contentious issues. Bandsaws are the sharpening of the machine world.

I do find it interesting we can have a long discussion rooted in the simple act of a man self-applying a seemingly (too) humble adjective. I have been waiting patiently for someone to go all Lord Byron on him and suggest that self-depreciation is hubris instead of humility. Are there no champions of Romanticism left? Or is it simply that people find it hard to take lessons on hubris from a man with the excesses of Byron?

In the end, I like Paul, learned enough from him to be worth the time debt I paid to learn it, I can't say that of many youtube creators. I like how he gives the novice a direct roadmap to good enough with things like benches, sharpening, planes and of all things grocery store chisels. There was a day not too long ago before having a friend over for a shop tour Work Zone chisels would be buried in the back of a drawer else the host suffer the indignation of being caught with tools bought from the German Walmart of foodstuffs. Now they would be proudly left out on display with expectations of the knowing man nod of the tool steel cognoscenti and a brief bowed silence for the man that pointed them on the road to satori.

[Charles Guest]

The current rate is 3.7 British pound per hour, or less than $5 US.

Simon

Which is like icing on top.

[Simon MacGowen]

Which is like icing on top.

Compared to the paying pupils, I suppose so.

Simon

[Simon MacGowen]

If you have some time to waste the replies Paul makes to the comments on his video are rather interesting. He seems at once very defensive of his power tool usage and at the same time demonizes machines, he also makes an odd comment about not considering them tools. T


Sellers is a great communicator as a woodworking educator; he is able to demonstrate and articulate many of the hand skills and techniques in a way many other hand-tool instructors don't or can't. For example, when he explains how he holds a combo square to layout a line, he does not just say "Hold the square and ...." He goes through finger by finger to explain his way of holding a square. I don't think anyone else in print or in video goes through that simple but critical process in marking out. I have seen people struggle with a "moving" combo square while knifing a line. Sellers's way is not the only way, but those strugglers could benefit from his instructions as an alternative. It is details like that that set him apart from a lot of other instructors.

However, Sellers is not always a good writer (like Chris Schwarz), and many of his blog posts are written with no to little editing, meaning he could say one thing but mean another without himself knowing it. I have not read much about his thinking on power tools, and he might indeed have written something that gave the impression that he hated power tools, etc. But I am sure I heard him in one of his videos saying he uses power tools, and power tools have their place.

Simon

[steven c newman]

Latest blog I have from Sellers, he talks about using his Bandsaw....

[Tony Wilkins]

Sellers is a great communicator as a woodworking educator; he is able to demonstrate and articulate many of the hand skills and techniques in a way many other hand-tool instructors don't or can't. For example, when he explains how he holds a combo square to layout a line, he does not just say "Hold the square and ...." He goes through finger by finger to explain his way of holding a square. I don't think anyone else in print or in video goes through that simple but critical process in marking out. I have seen people struggle with a "moving" combo square while knifing a line. Sellers's way is not the only way, but those strugglers could benefit from his instructions as an alternative. It is details like that that set him apart from a lot of other instructors.

However, Sellers is not always a good writer (like Chris Schwarz), and many of his blog posts are written with no to little editing, meaning he could say one thing but mean another without himself knowing it. I have not read much about his thinking on power tools, and he might indeed have written something that gave the impression that he hated power tools, etc. But I am sure I heard him in one of his videos saying he uses power tools, and power tools have their place.

Simon

Its in print but I think Kirby describes holding the square in a similar fashion in his dovetail book. Just a note to mention that, carry on.

[Simon MacGowen]

Its in print but I think Kirby describes holding the square in a similar fashion in his dovetail book. Just a note to mention that, carry on.

Indeed he does: p. 62; more or less same as Sellers's grip. Ian is one of those down-to-earth instructors I enjoy, as much as I find Jim Kingshott, another British, a good source of knowledge.

Simon