Vintage Martin T75 restoration

[Patrick Walsh]

So I have a opportunity to purchase the above machine for a fair deal from my employer.

I am aware of the phenolic guides being pop riveted I the the sliding table along with not availible for replacement.

So my question is as follows to those in the know with regard to the phenolic ways. Can the material be replaced. It seems from what I can tell that reproducing it should be pretty easy considering phenolic is still readily availible. Well at least I think it is, I could be wrong. From the looks of it I would think it machines fairly easily.

I figure the pop rivers could be taken out then the holes tapped and screws used instead to hold the phenolic ways down. As for the wheels the table rides along the ways on well I have yet to really dig to deep into the machine and check them out. I figure with all the stuff I seemguys domto restor old wadkin, Oliver and the like machines this has gotta be completely doable.

I have intended to buy a brand new Martin T60C all tricked out in the next year or so. With that said I also have my eye on a fully outfitted t12 with sliding table. Point being the spending could just never stop. Another point is I like the idea of no electronics on a slider, what I don’t like is the build quality of the low end offerings of Scmi or Felder when it comes to a fully manual machine.

Don’t get me wrong I love the idea of electronic everything but I also see a big risk involved. I figure if this saw is worth it I could fully go over much like Brian with his mortise machaine paint and all, the works if you will. I could then get a new crosscut fence from Felder or Scmi and Brian’s digital readouts and have a pretty nice machine.

So my hesitation is about the phenolic ways and them failing and me being stuck having to get a very very heavy lead weight out of my basement shop. Really whatever I bring into my shop I need to know it can live there forever baring natural disaster.

So what can people tell me about these phenolic ways or other potential problems. What if the motor goes can I have it re wound?

[Peter Kelly]

You might try just setting a dial indicator on a magnetic base approximately parallel to the blade with the point on the inside edge of the sliding table and see if there's any significant deviation as it travels along the length of it's run. Also look for a rising and falling of the sliding table top relative to the main saw top.

I had Griggio SC3000 with the same arrangement which I purchased used some years ago. The bearings in the wheels needed to be replaced but never an issue the ways being worn unevenly. Cut straight and ran like a champ.

[David Kumm]

What Peter said. The wear issue is really most prevalent where the slider made lots of small repeat cuts so the travel was mainly over just a small area. The dial should tell you if it is worth worrying about. If the cut is straight and there is no left and right wobble, life is good. Dave

[Patrick Walsh]

I use the saw everyday at at work. It cuts perfectly square over 10’.

I know the saw well as I have used it everyday for two almost three years. Ok maybe it’s out like 32nd-64th over 10’.

That could be due to operator error though as we don’t have air clamps at work and I’m pretty sure the original crosscut fence is no longer perfectly flat.

I figure I could get a new extrusion fro. Felder, Martin or Altendorf stops and all then add Brian Lambs new electronic stops to the machine along with my home made air clamps and have a pretty nice rig for very very short money that should last me the rest of my life and save me like $41000 lol..

I have noticed the phenolic ways are scarfed together in tow places, also a few of the pop rivets are loose to the touch. The table does have a spot where it grinds and or feels like it makes a bump. The fact is the saw cuts perfect though.

So do people think I could replace the phenolic and the wheels if need be if I was so motivated to find someone to fabricate the parts for me?

[peter gagliardi]

If you have the time, money, and patience, anything can be fixed. It should be no big deal to replace the ways if need be, but you may need the services of a machine shop to custom mill the phenolic for you.
Personally, if I were to investigate this, and the plastic needed replacing, I would look at better material options for wearability

[Walter Plummer]

A shop I worked at in the 90's looked into having the ways done. Altendorf would send a loner bed for the saw and you sent the whole beam to Germany to be redone. I don't know what kind of cost was involved but he purchased a new one and sold the old one to a solid surface shop.

[Patrick Walsh]

Peter,

Might you know a good machinist willing to do this work local to us.

I was put your neck of the woods Sunday taking a hike with the dog. Beautiful out your way. What I’d give to be able to live and make a living out your way.

[Patrick Walsh]

Hmm,

I figured it worth calling Altendorf.

I think it was my Martin rep that told me Altendorf no longer does this. Worth a call though..


A shop I worked at in the 90's looked into having the ways done. Altendorf would send a loner bed for the saw and you sent the whole beam to Germany to be redone. I don't know what kind of cost was involved but he purchased a new one and sold the old one to a solid surface shop.

[Warren Lake]

if they still do it its pretty big coin,. I asked once too long ago to remember. I think the biggest effect from the wear would be cross cutting with blade tilted to 45. At 90 degrees if the table rides up or down a bit it doesnt matter, on a mitre it might or maybe not enough to matter.

[Richard Coers]

Personally, I wouldn't touch a machine that has put in 32 years in a commercial shop. I certainly wouldn't pay for one, but if he is giving it to you instead of paying to have it hauled to the scrap yard, then maybe. Do you know if the pop rivets actually locate the rails, or are they bedded in epoxy, parallel to the machine, and then riveted in oversize holes for a mechanical fastening? Pop rivets aren't accurate fasteners, they swell into the hole. I think it would be extremely unlikely they locate the rails, but just my feeling. You can have the motor rewound, but have the bearings ever been replaced? I once had a motor overhauled in a Griggio. It had a skating sound for a couple of months. Found out that was the inner bearing race wearing on the shaft. They metal fused some material on it and returned the shaft. I think it was $350 to get the motor going again, in 1994. You must have one hell of a basement.

[Patrick Walsh]

Funny you should mention that. We miter wrap all our face frames to each other and or end panels. Just yesterday this time and in a couple hours again I’ll be putting a miter the length of a 85” 7 piece panel to join it to a face frame generally I get within a 32nd to perfect over such a length with a perfect 45% miter.

The only time I get deviation in the above situation is when my workpiece is not flat to the table as we often make out ff and panels and doors from pre dimensioned stock. Over a long length like that is the stick has the slight bow, cup or warp you will get some deviation. For paint grade not enough to matter. For stain grade it can be a deal breaker and thus stick must be flat.

Good insight on the 45% as I did not think about testing the saw that way.

[Patrick Walsh]

Richard,

Normally I would feel the same exact way. And until just a few weeks ago I had been saying the same thing swearing up and down i would never touch the machine, that when my time came I would purchase nothing other than new as I did not want the potential headaches.

Then I started thinking that the saw cuts perfect. It’s built like tank and makes newer Scmi/Felder machines seem like tin cans. We also have a T130 and two T110 shapers at work yes they are used but man they are sweet by comparison to my Felder f700Z. Makes it seem like something I got at Toys R US.

I figure I can tear the whole machine down. Replace all bearings, probably the phenolic, paint the whole thing, shine up all the metal surfaces, replace the fence with a new extrusion and Brian Lambs digital stops and have a sweet saw.

Yes this is the hard way and not the dream I have been having with the Martin T60C. The fact is I need or rather want to make two more major two purchases. If both of those Purchases end up Martin that’s a 80K loan for like 5 years. I’m starting to think I’d rather buy myself a piece of land out near Mr Lake above put up a small home a large shop and live La Vita Loca.. the fact is I’ll buy one of the two I just can’t see how to buy both.

And yes my basement is pretty sweet. I’m also pretty motivated, so far there is nothing I have not been able to get in there. And the door is only five feet high lol..

c
Personally, I wouldn't touch a machine that has put in 32 years in a commercial shop. I certainly wouldn't pay for one, but if he is giving it to you instead of paying to have it hauled to the scrap yard, then maybe. Do you know if the pop rivets actually locate the rails, or are they bedded in epoxy, parallel to the machine, and then riveted in oversize holes for a mechanical fastening? Pop rivets aren't accurate fasteners, they swell into the hole. I think it would be extremely unlikely they locate the rails, but just my feeling. You can have the motor rewound, but have the bearings ever been replaced? I once had a motor overhauled in a Griggio. It had a skating sound for a couple of months. Found out that was the inner bearing race wearing on the shaft. They metal fused some material on it and returned the shaft. I think it was $350 to get the motor going again, in 1994. You must have one hell of a basement.

[Brian Holcombe]

Patrick, Mark Hennebury has restored a beautiful vintage Martin slider and has it up for sale. I’d consider that strongly.

[Patrick Walsh]

Brian,

It’s 20K

For that kind of money I just assume undertake the task myself.

There is a old T75 close to me I could have for $5K “to much” that if I put a year of day here a day there work into I could make a dream machine. The problem is tow fold. I have limited time and want to build the things I want to build when I’m not working building the things I get paid to build. The second part is I often work from home when nesssiary and need the capacity to work with sheet stock. I’m tired of the track saw cabinet saw shuffle to size carcass panels. I’m now spoiled having a slider at work and it just feels so slow and cumbersome by comparison.

That saw is sweet though other than that nasty grey he chose. If I could setup for just my hobby/furniture/art shop as I have been at home and never worked with sheet stock that sawmwould be the choice. The short stroke a deal breaker for me sadly..

[Ole Anderson]

Teasing us mere mortals? I had to google "1986 Altendorf F45" just to see that this thread is about a slider/panel saw. Into the first dozen replies I was still thinking maybe a CNC machine of some sort. :rolleyes:

[Brian Holcombe]

Brian,

It’s 20K

For that kind of money I just assume undertake the task myself.

There is a old T75 close to me I could have for $5K “to much” that if I put a year of day here a day there work into I could make a dream machine. The problem is tow fold. I have limited time and want to build the things I want to build when I’m not working building the things I get paid to build. The second part is I often work from home when nesssiary and need the capacity to work with sheet stock. I’m tired of the track saw cabinet saw shuffle to size carcass panels. I’m now spoiled having a slider at work and it just feels so slow and cumbersome by comparison.

That saw is sweet though other than that nasty grey he chose. If I could setup for just my hobby/furniture/art shop as I have been at home and never worked with sheet stock that sawmwould be the choice. The short stroke a deal breaker for me sadly..

That saw is a dream for me, grey included (I like the color) so I thought I'd mention it. I absolutely love it and I respect that the price is not too much considering the work involved and the high quality of that work.

Anything can be rebuilt, but before you buy that saw I would find a local machine shop willing to take on one-off work at a reasonable price. Find out as much as possible the expenses before you commit to buying it, you may well be buying a headache if you want to work out the imperfections. The trouble, in many cases, is that once you start fixing things the costs involved rise rapidly.

[David Kumm]

Patrick, I did the same thing but with an SCM SI16 WA. It is at least one or two levels below the Altendorf but still way heavier than any most saws costing 20K new. I bought two saws and combined parts, sold some extra stuff and have a great saw with about 5K invested. You might want to talk to Stiles and see if they know of others with the same vintage machine and talk to others about potential issues. Commercial three phase sliders under 7500 are plentiful and generally in good condition. When you get under 5K, you need to be careful but you can still find good choices. Dave

[Peter Kelly]

Check the Machinery Exchange listings on Woodweb. There's a clean looking Altendorf C-45 available in Acton MA, seller is asking $5,500. Looks to be early / mid 90s vintage.

[Patrick Walsh]

Funny I know that saw.

We actually do that shops overflow work..

I’m not very motivated by that saw for whatever reason.

[Patrick Walsh]

That has mostly been the concern for me Brian and hence my motivation to just pace myself and but one new Martin say every five years till I’m just done. The last thing I want to do is dump any amount of my time into a machine as I barely have the time to make the things I want as mentioned above.

Now if I could get myself into a high quality old iron machine like this Altendorf or a early Martin for say$5k with a poop ton of elbow grease I would do it I am far from made of money and motivated to not spend my every last dollar.

I don’t have a relationship with a machinist but do have access to a few others work with. They are costly as these are guys that make parts for old antique cars like say early 1900’s Piece Arrows, packards, Beugatis and the such. I could see easily see dumping $5-7K into this machine if I pay $1500 for it being I, quite a perfectionist and will spare no expense having all parts machines to like new or better. No kipp levers for me �� , I’d be more inclined custom knerling and the such.




That saw is a dream for me,cluded (I like the color) so I thought I'd mention it. I absolutely love it and I respect that the price is not too much considering the work involved and the high quality of that work.

Anything can be rebuilt, but before you buy that saw I would find a local machine shop willing to take on one-off work at a reasonable price. Find out as much as possible the expenses before you commit to buying it, you may well be buying a headache if you want to work out the imperfections. The trouble, in many cases, is that once you start fixing things the costs involved rise rapidly.

[Jim Becker]

If I recall from when I visited his shop in TX, Steve Jenkins has an Altendorf slider, but I don't recall things like model, etc. You do have an advantage with the one you're looking at having been actually operating it at your workplace and knowing "what goes bump in the night".

[Brian Holcombe]

That has mostly been the concern for me Brian and hence my motivation to just pace myself and but one new Martin say every five years till I’m just done. The last thing I want to do is dump any amount of my time into a machine as I barely have the time to make the things I want as mentioned above.

Now if I could get myself into a high quality old iron machine like this Altendorf or a early Martin for say$5k with a poop ton of elbow grease I would do it I am far from made of money and motivated to not spend my every last dollar.

I don’t have a relationship with a machinist but do have access to a few others work with. They are costly as these are guys that make parts for old antique cars like say early 1900’s Piece Arrows, packards, Beugatis and the such. I could see easily see dumping $5-7K into this machine if I pay $1500 for it being I, quite a perfectionist and will spare no expense having all parts machines to like new or better. No kipp levers for me �� , I’d be more inclined custom knerling and the such.

It is often surprising how large the equipment needed to surface machine parts actually is. I can't imagine people building car parts would need equipment of the size to build machine parts. There just aren't that many long parts on a car that need checking, let alone resurfacing. You'd probably have more luck with someone who rebuilds large diesel motors if you need something long and heavy repaired.

So, anyways, check the saw out in every way manageable so that you have an idea of what you're getting involved in. If the machine has been packed with sawdust for years then you can honestly expect to have to rebuild every sliding surface and replace every bearing, even those behind sealed compartments.

I would expect to replace every bearing and rebuild every bearing surface and if some of them turn out to be acceptable (the surfaces, not the bearings) then you're money ahead.

[David Kumm]

Patrick, I've lost track of the goal here. If you are looking for a five year machine until you can buy what you want, I'd run it and not spend tons of time or money on rehab. You won't get the money back when you sell. If you are planning to keep this forever, then the ways are the big deal. Everything else can be dealt with if the slider and top are in good shape. If the table has a hitch in a certain spot, check the underarm support. Often that is where the problem lies and it transmits to the table. Cleaning the crap out and checking the bearings of the support can bring new life to the action of the table. Dave

[Patrick Walsh]

Dave my goal if I purchased this saw would be a forever saw.

I’m not interested in anything else as getting a machine this size into my shop requires much work. Just getting the machine outside my shop door is a project. I’m them going to have to remove my door jamb and all and cut into my foundation to increase the width to fit the machine through.

This machine would require I only increase the width maybe 1-3” but a new Martin will require a double door and a structural steel beam to replace the sill plate that carries the wall above.

Once that is done I have three short steps into my shop but that’s three pretty big steps when dealing with 4Klbs.

Once that’s done if Martin a phase perfect is in order. If this Altendorf I could have less expensive options for running a three phase machine.

My intent is to save $$$ have a forever machine and still be happy. I’m trying hard to not have to always buy and have the best everything as I’m getting old and reality is I’m a cabinet maker and just can’t have everything.

I feel lucky to have what I have..

[Patrick Walsh]

Brian,

Good insight as to the type of machinist whom would handle such a tasks. I really have no idea to be perfectly honest. I just know I have access to people of varying abilities with regard to machine work “even diesel mechanics” funny you should mention. I could maybe even ship you parts if you would be so interested.

I fully expect that I would replace every bearing in the machine. Again I have no idea where I get such bearings, how to remove them and or get them back on other than some kind of press and puller. I’m sure I’d figure it all out but it will be a journey that’s for sure.

The good news is I can leave the machine at work, tear it fully down, put it in the elevator and send it down to the spray booth then bring it back to the shop, fully rebuild it and then bring it home. No down time for my personal shop. The more I think about it though I should probably just finish paying off the new Martin Jointer and take out a loan for a brand new T60C and forget about the headaches and never have to want for another saw again.

The above option will however leave me working very hard and still trying to figure out how I’m gonna get a new Martin shaper also lol..

The want can just never end if you don’t intervene at some point right?


It is often surprising how large the equipment needed to surface machine parts actually is. I can't imagine people building car parts would need equipment of the size to build machine parts. There just aren't that many long parts on a car that need checking, let alone resurfacing. You'd probably have more luck with someone who rebuilds large diesel motors if you need something long and heavy repaired.

So, anyways, check the saw out in every way manageable so that you have an idea of what you're getting involved in. If the machine has been packed with sawdust for years then you can honestly expect to have to rebuild every sliding surface and replace every bearing, even those behind sealed compartments.

I would expect to replace every bearing and rebuild every bearing surface and if some of them turn out to be acceptable (the surfaces, not the bearings) then you're money ahead.

[Jim Becker]

Patrick, your balancing act appears to be whether the time and effort to rebuild the vintage Altendorf is more attractive than the "immediate satisfaction" (and warranty) of buying new, whether that be the Martin you covet or honestly, one of the more modest modern machines that would likely still do everything you want and need to do over the time you intend to continue doing what you do.

[Patrick Kane]

Speaking from a person who has moved big stuff into a basement, this would have to be a one and done for me. Before I move stuff out,i might have to cut in a double door, because it was that much of a hindrance for me moving stuff in. That is where my experience ends and opinion begins.

I may have missed it in the discussion, but is this saw free? If its not free, is it in the neighborhood of $1000? I dont know diddly about Altendorf's from the 80s, but all of this sounds like a ton of time. I dont know your financial situation, but I would personally avoid the martin AND the altendorf. I imagine you know the market just as well if not better than me, and so you know theres going to be a great saw for under $10k in the next 3 months. From what youve said, i take it you have a T54? Id love to have a T54, and maybe some day i will, but for the interim i have some generic PF500 that does the job 90%+ as well as the martin. I own a 700 series Felder, and while i havent used dozens of sliders, i know theres better than my machine. With that said, my machine was cheap, cuts squarely, and is a good machine for me. Is the outrigger a little flimsy, yes. Is the cast iron table kinda small, yes. There are a lot of features on the machine that i would ideally want improved, bu they wouldnt be worth the opportunity cost. Either id have to give more of my time to rehab a better quality machine in worse condition, or spend more money that could otherwise go in an investment account. As you mentioned, sometimes you need to settle for 'good nuff'.

[Steve Jenkins]

As Jim said I have a f45 that I bought new in 1992 so it’s a bit newer than the one you’re looking at. Also Ive been pretty much a one man shop so the use is different. Mine has phenolic ways and there is no problem with them. From what you’ve said it sounds like the saw is working fine. Seems like you mentioned getting it for 1500. If it were me I’d buy it take it home and use it until it no longer worked “fine” then look at either rebuilding as needed or get rid of it and replace it.

[Patrick Walsh]

Jim,

The above is 100% true. This would be my instant gratification type solution to not having to wait another year for a Martin then pay for it for the next three years.

Really what it comes down to is I just don’t like good enough. I don’t like it with my work, I don’t like in my home, I don’t like in my car, I don’t like it from afar. I don’t like green eggs and ham SAM I am..

You get the point I just don’t like good enough period.

This is my reasoning, i did not say logic. If I’m gonna pay $20K for something even $10K for that matter I had better like it or it’s gonna get my goat every time I use it, when I do use said item im just gonna think this thing is ok but just ok, or it’s a problem and it cost me tens of thousands of dollars and I regret it and wish I had known better or saved longer and ourchest better quality.

So the gussied up f45 would be a compromise for me that that could leave me satisfied if The saw was in proper working order and would last another 40 years that way as it is really high quality compared to what $10-20k gets you today. Even compared to a new Altendorf it’s much nicer imop.

I wouldn’t walk up the machine weekly/daily and think this thing is just another tin pile of junk that got pared down to disposable because people generally just want cheap and no longer value quality that can last a hundred years. Or crap the sliding table deflects with clamping pressure and or won’t hold calibration and thus every time I use it I gotta muck with it before I can actually get to work when I should be able to just get to work to make a square cut, cope or tenon.

The above logic or lack there of it is how I get myself to spend big money on machines, tools, my house repairs and upgrades and well everything but my truck and my clothing. I don’t like doing things twice because someone couldn’t be bothered to do it right the first time.

I guess is should just wait and purchase exactly what I want. However it sounds like I could fix this machine if need be.

[Patrick Walsh]

I also have moved lots of big stuff. So much so I’m getting pretty used to it and really don’t even consider it anymore. I use to move big stuff time to time building homes “structural steel, huge lvl’s, rocks whatever you name it. Now I move big stuff at work “machinery, lumber, finished cabinets that weigh way more than they should” all be it much more easy with a fork lift, pallet jack and elevator.

Fact is it will take me a day and a few hundred bucks to get any machine into my house. To me that means once and done is the only option. I have no interest in ever taking anything out. As it is I’m gonna have to get rid of my Felder j/p in the next year or tow to bring my Martin t54 home that resides at work currrently. The Felder is 1800lbs, no big deal unless you gotta get it to go uphill and I do ;)

If the stuff ever comes out it’s gonna be cuz I’m dead or I move in such a case I’ll hire people to move it all.


Speaking from a person who has moved big stuff into a basement, this would have to be a one and done for me. Before I move stuff out,i might have to cut in a double door, because it was that much of a hindrance for me moving stuff in. That is where my experience ends and opinion begins.

I may have missed it in the discussion, but is this saw free? If its not free, is it in the neighborhood of $1000? I dont know diddly about Altendorf's from the 80s, but all of this sounds like a ton of time. I dont know your financial situation, but I would personally avoid the martin AND the altendorf. I imagine you know the market just as well if not better than me, and so you know theres going to be a great saw for under $10k in the next 3 months. From what youve said, i take it you have a T54? Id love to have a T54, and maybe some day i will, but for the interim i have some generic PF500 that does the job 90%+ as well as the martin. I own a 700 series Felder, and while i havent used dozens of sliders, i know theres better than my machine. With that said, my machine was cheap, cuts squarely, and is a good machine for me. Is the outrigger a little flimsy, yes. Is the cast iron table kinda small, yes. There are a lot of features on the machine that i would ideally want improved, bu they wouldnt be worth the opportunity cost. Either id have to give more of my time to rehab a better quality machine in worse condition, or spend more money that could otherwise go in an investment account. As you mentioned, sometimes you need to settle for 'good nuff'.

[Martin Wasner]

Steve summed up my thoughts well.

I would only add, why are you packing this stuff into a basement? Spend some dollars on a space that is a little more accessible. I had riggers deliver a piece a few weeks ago, they dropped the semi trailer in the shop.

[Jim Becker]

Oh, I have no issue with the idea of investing in what you really want and didn't mean to suggest "settling" on something inadequate. I certainly have handled my own tool purchases by buying the best I could afford. I do wonder if sometimes we individually (general statement not referring to you personally) see things in ways that might be more subjective than objective when we are trying to decide what we really want and why. Human nature, I suppose. If in the end, only the Martin (a fine machine) would make you happy, you'll find a way to make it happen.

[David Kumm]

I get the thing about wanting to be happy with what you have but also keep in mind the economics of the deal. Can you earn enough extra to justify the cost of new high end? Borrowing for non income producing assets generally means that savings and investments are underfunded and when the newness wears off the payments are still there. There is also a pleasure when running a great machine that left you with money in the bank. Dave

[Patrick Walsh]

Yes I will,

but I agree with the tone and logic behind less is more.

After all I wear a hat daily that reads “live simply”...

Everything but my tools and lumber, don’t mess with my tools lumber collection and free time to use them ;)

No kids, no wife and sadly down to one dog from two as of last week. Largely I just do what makes me happy.

At this rate I will work till the day I die. Thank god I love my work baring the odd lazy co-worker that has perfected playing hide and go seek all day. Other than that and carpal tunnel I see no reason to not work till I fall over.

Oh and based on my tax returns I have no business buying anything other than a can of tuna fish. If I gave into that reality though I’d be a very very unhappy man..

[Jim Becker]

You do really, really good work, Patrick...you're a true craftsman. I'm sure that you'll reach a decision that works best for you on this saw thing so that you can continue with that work in a way that's most comfortable and satisfying. :)

[peter gagliardi]

Sorry for the late reply Patrick. I have been down for a couple days with severe vertigo. Anyway, there are a couple shops out this way that should/do have the size machines needed to do work of that length. If you are interested, I can forward you their names. I have used one of them years ago to resurface my jointer and bandsaw tables, and a friend used the other for some larger work.
I think it much smarter to outfit a solid older saw with some newer measuring technology vs. Spending big coin on a new machine which WILL disappoint at some level.
I have a Martin T75 PreX 12’ saw that we bought new about 6 years ago. It is a fine and accurate saw, but it has been at least a moderate disappointment in its capabilities, engineering, and build quality for me, when I look at what it cost.
Things you will not pick up on, until you are using it daily, and then are so rudimentarily obvious that you can see they don’t bother investing in real shop real world feedback.
If I am this un-plussed by their top end saw, I can only imagine what I would have issue with a lower class machine.
I do have an older cast iron T75 that has wear in the ways, which is not an issue for the type of work I use it for. But I enjoy using more actually, though not nearly as capable as the newer machine.

[Patrick Walsh]

Peter,

Don’t worry about it, hope you doing better.

I’m very surprised to hear you say your disappointed in your Prex. That’s kinda crazy, I do suppose for like $70 my expectations would be very very high.

I see a old t75 local to us with the round extrusion for the sliding table that could work very very well for me. I love the older short stroke machines but I need to be able to process 8’ sheet stock. Maybe I should atake a drive and take a look.

Can you tell me is your t75 the same vintage with the round extrusion? If so can you tell me how you feel about the design overall and any potential problematic areas and or features to look out for that can or can not be repaired if I shall choose to go such a route.

Thanks again,
Patrick


Sorry for the late reply Patrick. I have been down for a couple days with severe vertigo. Anyway, there are a couple shops out this way that should/do have the size machines needed to do work of that length. If you are interested, I can forward you their names. I have used one of them years ago to resurface my jointer and bandsaw tables, and a friend used the other for some larger work.
I think it much smarter to outfit a solid older saw with some newer measuring technology vs. Spending big coin on a new machine which WILL disappoint at some level.
I have a Martin T75 PreX 12’ saw that we bought new about 6 years ago. It is a fine and accurate saw, but it has been at least a moderate disappointment in its capabilities, engineering, and build quality for me, when I look at what it cost.
Things you will not pick up on, until you are using it daily, and then are so rudimentarily obvious that you can see they don’t bother investing in real shop real world feedback.
If I am this un-plussed by their top end saw, I can only imagine what I would have issue with a lower class machine.
I do have an older cast iron T75 that has wear in the ways, which is not an issue for the type of work I use it for. But I enjoy using more actually, though not nearly as capable as the newer machine.

[Martin Wasner]

but I need to be able to process 8’ sheet stock.


Got room for a vertical panel saw? I hate cutting sheets on a slider without an ergo. Even then, meh.

[Patrick Walsh]

Not in my home shop.

At work yes but this is for my home shop where I build primarily furniture. I do work from home from time to time when it nesesitates be it a day here or there, a week here or there or at times a month or two at a time. I buy and or am building my shop from the perspective that at any point in time I could find myself self employed out of choice or necessity. I’m also also planing for retirement and a day when I won’t be able to afford buying any of this stuff and being set up to build the things I want and do small projects for exctra money.

[Darcy Warner]

Pure perfection.

396291

[Patrick Walsh]

Darcy,

Can you get the cast iron tables off that thing. Both the sliding table and the cast table to the right of the blade.


Pure perfection.

396291

[peter gagliardi]

The ones I have owned are older versions of Darcy’s- only difference being fence style. The sliding part of the carriage is covered by aluminum plates, and has aluminum push/pull handle at the back. The older cast iron T75’s are more versatile- you can run dado heads, etc.
Biggest difference between old and new is the slider fence assembly- newer is easier to angle and reposition to 90 accurately and repeatedly. I never moved mine, because I have the newer saw for that. The ball tracks can and do wear, but the saw will cut accurately even with moderate wear.
The 8’ saws JUST have enough length for 8’ panels.
Otherwise, as Darcy says, they are a pretty perfect bulletproof and proven design.
Mine never had scoring, but the new machine does.
I keep sharp blades and have never needed the scoring unit- even on the new saw.
You should at least do yourself a favor and check out the local unit.
You can see the amount of wear easily in the vee ways. You can also run slider to its furthest fore and aft position, and try to pick up on the ends.

[Darcy Warner]

Darcy,

Can you get the cast iron tables off that thing. Both the sliding table and the cast table to the right of the blade.

Yes, everything comes off, everything is heavy.
Had one from 71 and one from 75. The newer one had scoring blade.

[Kevin Jenness]

There are too many Altendorfs and Martins around with the carriage in decent shape to bother with a funky one even if they give it to you.

I have worked with two old Martins, a T75 and a T73 from the mid-80's, both really nice saws. The T75 is just as Peter says, bombproof with a stroke just long enough for 8" sheets, less sophisticated fences. The T73 is also a great saw, more likely to have a scoring saw and the longer stroke is an advantage. One weakness is lack of factory support for the hydraulic pump that raises and tilts the blade if it ever gives out. Either one or an F45 in good shape would be a lifetime saw in a one man shop. They can be had for under $10k. Add DRO's to the fences and you will be a happy man.

The shop I used to work at traded in the T73 for a new T60C after a couple of bearing failures in the main motor and arbor made them nervous. Except for the left-hand rip adjustment/lock and the DRO's on the blade height/tilt and rip fence I don't see any improvement over the T73. The motorized blade control seems more of a liability than an improvement.

[Brian Holcombe]

If you're not dying to get something right now I would just wait around with money in hand for when something really really sweet pops up onto the market and get a older machine in good shape that does not need a total overhaul.

A good machine can be brought back to life from years of abuse, but it's a long process.

[Joe Calhoon]

My T75 was a 1968 and had the miter cross fence that had the protractor like half circle with large marks for the degrees. The tubular outrigger was a later model. Not sure how the miter worked on the later one but mine was accurate to about 1/10 of a degree and would return to square after the drop pin was adjusted. The later models had the ballbearing fence that folds down and a red stop button near the floor on the left side. If I were buying one now the later model would be my choice. I bought it used in late 80s to replace a new SCM Slider and ran it up till 1999 when I bought the T72A I still have.
Mine did not have a scoring saw and really never felt like I needed one. The T72 has a electronic adjusting scoring saw. We use it when cutting Melimine, a rare occasion at our shop but most of the time it is out of the saw. Hardwood ply is no problem to cut without scoring. Over all I like everything about the T72 better than the T 75. Ours is pretty much non electric with hydro tilt and raise. Crank controlled rip fence on ball bearings and manual stops on the cross fence. The digital readout for fence, tilt and raise lower started going out a year ago but with some help from others traced the problem to a faulty wire.
The T72 A that has all the electronic movement is one they are having trouble getting parts for so that one I would avoid.
One big advantage of a T75 is in a small shop the foot print is pretty small for a saw that will cut 8’ sheets.

I lust after a short stroke T17 or Panhans 609 but in reality my T72 can do anything these saws can and need the floor space.

[Patrick Walsh]

Thanks guys,

I’m gonna pass on my boses saw. He can probably get more from selling it than I’d be willing to spend on it. And even then it’s just not in very good condition. I gave the sliding table the lift test suggested by Peter today and it was horrific. For the sake of this particular machine I hope that just normal and peters mention of that was in relationship to the older Martin t75.

I’m gonna go look at the t75 I found. Depending on condition I may finally satisfy my bug for a slider at a unexpected time. I’m pretty convinced a older saw like the T75 is the way to go for me if in good condition vrs a new Martin.

My only concern is running it off single phase power and loosing 1/3 the hp of a 6.5hp motor. I regularly bog down 5hp motors on cabinet saws both sawstop and powermatic. I also have no idea the max blade size on the old t75 and the ability to cut thick stock is very important to me.

We will see, guess it’s time to find time for a drive..

[David Kumm]

Put a vfd on it. Way better than a static. Give Jack and Matt a call. Dave

[Patrick Walsh]

that’s what I figured but the hp loss is nearly the same correct?

Could I do something stupid and put a new motor on it like a 10hp run on a vfd and get my 7 hp back?



Put a vfd on it. Way better than a static. Give Jack and Matt a call. Dave

[David Kumm]

You won't lose any HP. The vfd needs to input about 30 amps @ 240 single phase to get enough output to run at full load but Jack has those for less than $500. Well worth the price. Have a brake resistor added and you will also get a way to stop the blade fairly quickly. Dave

PS. that old Martin motor will be a large frame heavy motor unlike the small frame motors used on Euro machines made now. They are very well made and worth keeping.

[Patrick Walsh]

Dave thanks for the help.

You are a valuable resource for us all.

[peter gagliardi]

Patrick, to clarify, the lift test only works on the “captured ball” type setup the Martin STILL uses to this day, but now with hardened and replaceable steel strips.
Roller style sliders such as the Altendorf will not yield any useful info from doing it. They lay on top of the saw and use only gravity and a type of stop finger under it to keep it from lifting off at the extreme travel lengths.
The Martin has vee races adjusted and machined to the ball bearings used size tolerance.
It will be obvious as soon as you see it. The balls ,over time on older non-hardened ways will start to wear “tolerance” into the vee races making for play.
However, it takes a LOT of wear to make the saw inaccurate in daily use. The wear ideally should be uniform along the length of the ways to maintain an accurate cut.
There should be good dust collection hooked up, along with a felt pad under the infeed end of the slider carriage that came on the saw originally. That pad should be oil soaked, and each stroke puts a light film of oil on the ways. ATF is a good product, as it has detergents to help clean.
I do not remember the spec’s, but an old guy I ran into told me that up to around I think it was 3/8” to 1/2” of vertical lift at the end was where you would start to notice accuracy issues in the cut. It might have been 1/4” to 3/8”??

[Brian Holcombe]

What do you all think of Kolle? I don’t hear much about them but some of the equipment they made looks really well built to me.

I have been passively looking at their tenoners, which look to be built like a brick outhouse, maybe their sliders are an option for Patrick?

[Martin Wasner]

What do you all think of Kolle?

I'm really upset I didn't buy a Kolle planer that was available a while back.
I'm less upset about a Martin that I could've had as well.

[David Kumm]

Kolle was up there with Martin and Hofmann. There was a beautiful jointer and matching planer for sale a couple of years ago. Sweet. There was also a combo jointer planer made by Hofmann that lasted about an hour. Hofmann may be top of the heap. Dave

[Darcy Warner]

What do you all think of Kolle? I don’t hear much about them but some of the equipment they made looks really well built to me.

I have been passively looking at their tenoners, which look to be built like a brick outhouse, maybe their sliders are an option for Patrick?

Owned several Kolle, pretty nice machines.
Bauerle is another really nice machine.

[Patrick Walsh]

Noticed a Kolle slot mortiser on ww about six months ago. Wanted to buy but other things top my tool list. Wish I had purchased it.

Can’t have everything...

[Brian Holcombe]

Martin, was it one with the long cast iron outfeed? That’s an impressive setup with the counterbalance system to keep it level. It seems more robust than the more common cantilever type.

David, I had a feeling that jointer/planer would go quickly.

Just in seeing photos of the machines there seems to be a lot of things that Kolle built very nicely, for example the tenoner’s ways appear to be removable and so presumably either adjustable or more easily resurfaced. That seems a much more feasible task than resurfacing a huge slab of cast iron at it’s sides but I could be wrong about that.

Probably any of the three would be fantastic.

[Warren Lake]

if we start a thread on machines we screwed up and didnt buy you guys will be more tired of hearing from me. As Cher said "if I could turn back time"

[Jim Becker]

Honestly, this thread has been a great and educational discussion. :) I know I've appreciated it!

[Martin Wasner]

Martin, was it one with the long cast iron outfeed? That’s an impressive setup with the counterbalance system to keep it level. It seems more robust than the more common cantilever type.


No, it was a DH63 I think? Pretty standard looking planer, it was in very nice condition and reasonably priced. I would've been much happier with it than my Format 4, which isn't bad, just underwhelming.

By the time I decided I should buy it, it was gone.



Warren, that's a fantastic thread idea.

[Warren Lake]

I think its kinda painful, ask my lady friend who has heard me whine and wanted to put me into therapy. One auction I did I went 9 hours only to get down to three excellent machines amongst others towards the end and I was into burn out, likely not able to count to five at that point.

Guy there in leather pants (who wears leather pants to an auction or anywhere for that matter ) company name on his coat another branch, he was there on a mission to buy the Baurle Planer, Jointer and an SCM T-160. Auctions run faster than my brain often and been up against some big deal people before and that changes the dynamic when they are there specifically for stuff or were sent. Lovely jointer and planer and shaper they were heavy as hell, well maintained, nice style as well, Ive photoed alot of shops before they were torn apart, its pretty sad 50 years or more and huge history to build and refine these things, full of trained european craftsman then a few days later its all pulled apart, beeping forklifts dust and a pretty empty shell other than the last to come down the dust collection pipe. several days and a huge piece of history is gone. serious when its over 100 shops.

[Darcy Warner]

The Kolle HDA63 I had.
I had a chance to buy it back recently

https://youtu.be/FKKQj61IYos

[Darcy Warner]

I think a machines I shouldn't have bought would be a good idea

[Martin Wasner]

I think a machines I shouldn't have bought would be a good idea

I don't have too many of those. There's a lot of things I just couldn't afford to buy for a long time. But, virtually everything powermatic I've owned could've been avoided, I just didn't know any better

[Patrick Walsh]

So I went and looked at the machine today. This is what I came away with.

I would appreciate any thoughts on what I have to share as I’m really considering buying it.

So cosmetically it is old, the paint is chipped as expected down to cast iron all over. The rust is non existent to very minimal surface rust. It would all come off with minimal attention. Just the normal one would expect from a machine that has been in storage for a bit. To be honest less than you would expect.

The sliding table has zero play in it per Peters suggestion when extended to the begging and end of its stroke. Like zero, nada, nothing zilch!

The ways or little silver tracks that are set at a 90 % angle to each to each other on the extrusion that bolts to the side of the machine have almost no groove worn in them. What is worn is very very consistent and barely there. At no point does the slide hesitate in one spot the slightest.

The table did haowever make a noise like it was rubbing something when slidden back and forth. At first I thought it was catching on the dust shroud that covers the arbor or blade. After further inspection I found one of the silver tracks much like the ones on the extrusion the sliding table runs on but mounted to the underside of the sliding table had come a bit loose in the middle. It was still connected securely at either end but delaminating in the middle. I have no idea how these are held on as I seen no meachnical fasteners. Must be some kind of adhesive?

I also noticed and photographed another silver track of metal maybe 3/16 thick and 3/8 wide that seemed to float between the extrusion the slider runs on and the sliding table itself. This piece seems to act like a stop to limit the travel of the table itself. At first I though maybe this pice of metal was the culprit of the noise. Seems weird something just floats.

Other than that the blade tilt worked well maybe a tiny bit stiff but barley. The blade fall and rise was also smooth but nothing like my sawstop, takes a tiny bit of muscle. The sliding table had not one itty bitty cut in it and the the machine had all its original accessories with with it including a brand new extruded fence and stop from Felder. The machine also comes with a pile of blades. Well 3-4 all in good condition and good blades.

Ever original knob was on the machine. The rip fence traveled smoothly with not the slightest hesitation or play. The brass scale is there however it was pulling up in one area slightly. I’d have to remove it anyway to restore the machine and more importantly take the right cast table extension off to fit the machine into my shop.

The machine oddly does have a 1.25” arbor. Being German both the owner and I find that strange. There was zero play in the arbor that I could detect. I wonder if the machine came 1.25” or if maybe the arbor was replaced at some point.

Other than that I have nothing but lust for it. The table is heavy as can be and does not slide with ease like a modern Italian or German machine but it is butter smooth just heavy and takes a bit of muscle to get moving vrs blowing on it. It’s just heavy, everything about the machine is heavy so my guess is that is exactly how it’s supposed to be. I like the heavy thing.

Thanks for all the help. Also if anyone can offer perspective via pm only what I should expect to pay for such a machine in such condition.

396367

[David Kumm]

I can't speak to the other stuff ( Joe, Peter, and Darcy are the go to guys here ) but I'm not surprised at the arbor. 1 1/8 and 1 1/4 were pretty common for old commercial saws. I would be more surprised if it were 1" as that is rare on old stuff. Sounds potentially like a option if someone knows about the table elements. Mark Hennebury might be a help here too. Dave

[Darcy Warner]

All the t75s I had were 1 1/4" arbors.

I cant make out anything in the picture.

[Patrick Walsh]

I shoulda taken better pictures.

The photo is of the sliding table sitting on the rail that mounts to the saw body as if you are right in front of the machine with the blade rise,fall,tilt just out of the picture to your right.

If you take note of the painter over bolt and look to just about 3oclock you will see a silver piece. That piece is the piece that seems to just be floating.

My only two concerns with the saw are this floating piece and that it’s actually supposed to float. And then the one rail mounted to the underside of the sliding table that seems to be delaminating. Otherwise I’m pretty sold on the machine.

I am apprhensive to these two things though as I imagine they could be probelmic if indeed they are not as they are supposed to be. I imagine they could also be easy fixes but I don’t know if there a problem and or what the fix would be. I guess for me that would require taking the machine home and putting it to use and seeing what I come up with then dealing accordingly.

Good news on the 1.25 darcy

[Darcy Warner]

I also have a drawing of the dado arbor that my machinist made for me. Martin wanted like 3k for one. Lmao.

[Patrick Walsh]

Funny the machines owner spoke of trying to run a magic Moulder head on the machine mostly for the haunch on integrated beaded face frames. Guess he figured it out using a t-hat bashing of sorts but never actually purchased the head and got it up and running.

So does Martin still sell parts for this machine should I require something?

I made him a offer lower than asking and he is hesitating. His asking is inline with what you shared selling your machines for Darcy. His machine is cosmetically not in near as nice as condition as the one I can find video of online or yours. If I couple thy with whatever this loose part is rattling around and the delaminating track I feel like that kinda $$ may not be warranted.

I’d hate to see the machine disappear though cuz I just didn’t give the guy his asking price.

[Jim Becker]

Based on your description, that sounds really promising and it also sounds like it was taken care of and/or not "over used". I can't help with valuation 'cause I don't have a clue about that.

[David Kumm]

Castings and parts that look difficult to make are what I look for. Parts that can be machined or turned on a lathe are usually cheaper to make than buy. Nothing coming from Martin will be cheap but I've never really had a problem fixing the good old stuff. You want a good motor guy and a machinist though. Dave

[Joe Calhoon]

I think all the T75s Reibling sold came with a 1.25 arbor to cater to the US market. My 1999 T72 is 1.25 also. I think when the T73 started in 2002 or so they started bringing in 30mm arbors.

Sounds like good news on the wear of the ways. Mine had a slight groove about 1/4” wide. The de-laminated part should be fixable but no idea on what adhesive. They do push a little harder probably because the sliding table is cast and heavy. Even the new Martins do not slide as easy as Altendorf or SCM but the tables run accurately. There is a peculiar thing with the T75 to get full extension one way or the other you have to rock the table back and fourth to move the balls. Hard to explain but other owners will know what I mean. I had to do a lot of cleaning inside to get the rise and fall to work easy. I like hydro tilt but I don’t think any 75s had that.
mine had 2 miter gauges and a device for setting the ruler on the fence and a panel support. All good things to have if they are with the saw.
That saw in good running order set up with air clamps and a modern double miter would be a craftsman’s dream.

[Patrick Walsh]

First joe,

Thank you, you are also another invaluable resource for all us machine and Woodworking obsessed/ committed whatever or however you want to term it.

Second by double miter I assume you mean the blade bevel as In a modern t75 or is my greeness showing through and I just don’t know what I don’t know.

As for accessories I’d have to look carefully. All i know is all the original fence parts where there the pressure clamp, original wrench, the wrench that goes onto the back of the saw to move the sliding table out to accommodate stacked or dado blades and a few other odds and ends I didn’t pay attention to as myself and the seller were just having to good a time talking shop when I shoulda been going over the machine with a fine tooth comb.

I always feel rude being overly focused kicking tires on a used machine when a seller is just interested in chatting and being friendly one woodworker to another.

I have air clamps although it seems it would be hard to use more than one at a time when working with a full 8’ sheet being the table is just over 8’. I bet I can rig something up if I’m so motivated.

I am thinking tear it all the way down. Strip and repaint everything back to original factory color with a very high quality industrial metal paint, address potential isssues regarding function then polish up and or re plate all knobs shrouds and or whatever.

Add Brian lambs new digital cross cut read outs dial in the brass rip fence scale or have it reproduced and I agree I have my DREAM SAW!


I think all the T75s Reibling sold came with a 1.25 arbor to cater to the US market. My 1999 T72 is 1.25 also. I think when the T73 started in 2002 or so they started bringing in 30mm arbors.

Sounds like good news on the wear of the ways. Mine had a slight groove about 1/4” wide. The de-laminated part should be fixable but no idea on what adhesive. They do push a little harder probably because the sliding table is cast and heavy. Even the new Martins do not slide as easy as Altendorf or SCM but the tables run accurately. There is a peculiar thing with the T75 to get full extension one way or the other you have to rock the table back and fourth to move the balls. Hard to explain but other owners will know what I mean. I had to do a lot of cleaning inside to get the rise and fall to work easy. I like hydro tilt but I don’t think any 75s had that.
mine had 2 miter gauges and a device for setting the ruler on the fence and a panel support. All good things to have if they are with the saw.
That saw in good running order set up with air clamps and a modern double miter would be a craftsman’s dream.

[Joe Calhoon]

What do you all think of Kolle? I don’t hear much about them but some of the equipment they made looks really well built to me.

I have been passively looking at their tenoners, which look to be built like a brick outhouse, maybe their sliders are an option for Patrick?

Brian,
Kolle is not bad I owned one of their slot mortiser that I regret selling.
the tenoners are nice but my favorite small manual German tenoner is the Panhans 269 from the late 80s - mid 90s. The table angles both ways to 60 degrees and they had the LAS fence. I think the Kolle only went to 45 each way and the Martin T27 -28 tenoners only 45 degrees one way. Similar to my T23 shaper. It can go the other way but a pain to set and no scale. Some slightly heavier manual tenoners more for window work were the Funk, Okoma and Haberkorn.
All these machines will usually have a 40mm shaft.

[Patrick Walsh]

Jim,

I tend to agree,

Weird that all living parts don’t show much of any wear as the paint is pretty representative of its age.

Now I just gotta get the seller to pay attention to my offer and go get this thing.


Based on your description, that sounds really promising and it also sounds like it was taken care of and/or not "over used". I can't help with valuation 'cause I don't have a clue about that.

[Jim Becker]

Yea, paint and aesthetics are easy to deal with if the "parts that do the work" are, um...working smoothly and correctly. :)

[peter gagliardi]

No wear is a very good thing. The noise you hear, and the loose part, without better photos sound like a minor fix. Once the rise and fall and tilt gearing, chains, and ways are clean, the saw will move effortlessly. There are lube points for every moving part on these machines. Get yourself a ball oiler. The arbor and motor assembly probably weigh as much as a whole sawstop, so....
1 1/4” arbor is a blessing in disguise. You will find shaper cutters that can be run on that.
PM sent

[Patrick Walsh]

Peter,

Sounds like I have found a winner.

Who knew me selling my bosses old saw would lead me down this rabbit hole. I had no intention of dealing with my want of a slider for my personal shop anytime soon.

Feels like this is the right choice. Now I just gotta strike a deal with the seller. Don’t think he liked my offer. For all,I know he is having reservations about selling. I have tried to purchase a number of used Martin machines. In ever case you get the feeling the seller deep down or “not so deep down” really does not want to sell.

I get it as a well built machine really is just such a joy to use. The difference between good enough and great really is just something.

My t54 jointer has such an effect on everyone who lays a hand on it. Even those whom don’t agree it necessary and would never buy one even if they could will admit how nice the machine is and how nothing they have ever used or seen in a machine even comes close to comparing.

[Brian Holcombe]

Thanks Joe, greatly appreciate your insights!

[peter gagliardi]

Also, I think what Joe refers to as a double miter is essentially Martin’s version of Altendorf’s offering that they call the “duplex”. Essentially a 90 degree corner that can be set so 2 faces are at 45 degrees, or the odd angle and its compliment so you cut one side on the forward face, and one on the rear face. When done, you get 2 pieces that miter to a perfect 90 degree.

[Patrick Walsh]

Ah,

That would be slick.

The one and only downside to me choosing this machine vrs a newer machine would be the ability to cut angles with ease.

I was pretty excited and thus motivated to splurge on the digital readout for angle cutting with the crosscut fence of the modern machines. More than just the ability was the ease of setting it back to 90%.

I work on a machine at work that you would not dare move the crosscut fence from the 90% position as getting it back would be a major gamble and this task if you didn’t just get lucky.

To date I use the shorter miter fence that mounts further back on the sliding table. Again this fence is also a pain in the but to setup as it has no detents and just a scale. From what I have found the scale is pretty accurate but if you set it slightly off as everyone knows your not gonna get a square cut.

Not having to even think about that was very attractive. For $40K I think I’ll just have to learn to live without such a feature.

Peter,

How big of a blade can you fir on one of these old t75’s..

Seller made clear the 14” blade he runs won’t drop all the way under the table. Looks like you’d fit a 16” on it though..


Also, I think what Joe refers to as a double miter is essentially Martin’s version of Altendorf’s offering that they call the “duplex”. Essentially a 90 degree corner that can be set so 2 faces are at 45 degrees, or the odd angle and its compliment so you cut one side on the forward face, and one on the rear face. When done, you get 2 pieces that miter to a perfect 90 degree.

[peter gagliardi]

I do not know max size, but I have had a 16” on it, and it might take an 18” but I just do not remember. Going to the shop in a bit and can confirm.

[Joe Calhoon]

Not sure how the newer cross fence miters but the protractor one on the old one was easy enough to return to 90. The big marks for the degrees makes it accurate to 1/10th degree, maybe better if your eyes are good. T72 is accurate to 1/100 degree but dependent on electronics.

Here are pictures of some cuts made with the double miter. I am sure one of these could be adopted to the T75. Mine is made for the newer vintage Martins but I was able to make a new metal part to fit it on mine. They wanted a lot more for one to fit mine. After using this I realized a short stroke slider would be of no use in my shop.

396402
396404
396405396406

[Joe Calhoon]

I think the max size blade is 20”. Pretty sure mine would drop a 14 below the table.

[Darcy Warner]

I think the max size blade is 20”. Pretty sure mine would drop a 14 below the table.

The old t75 would run a 20" only a 12" would go below table.

There is only like 4 inches of height travel out of the blade.

A 12" blade on a t75 will do 95% of everything one needs.

[Patrick Walsh]

Thanks guys,

Just looking at the saw I assumed I could get a 16” blade on the machine. For whatever reason I fairly often want to cut more than 3.5-4”.

The miter-x looks like a great solution for me Joe. I guess just one more thing to spend money on lol....

[Joe Calhoon]

Probably right about not dropping the 14 below the table. We used 14s in the saw but it’s been 18 years since running it. We keep a 14” in the T72 and it will drop below the table. 14 is good for us because we are cutting door and window parts every day that are 2 1/4 to 3 inches thick. If you are just doing cabinet type work 12” is fine. Every so often the 20” saw goes in for thick projects. The 3 speeds is nice to have for the different size of blades and using shaper cutters.

[Martin Wasner]

I forgot about being able to change speeds. I'd think a 20" blade would have a ludicrous tip speed if the norm is a 12"

[Joe Calhoon]

Martin, we run 14 and 12” blades at the mid speed. About 4000 rpm I think. Made the mistake of running the 20” at that speed once. Deafening!

[Warren Lake]

being on cabinet saws all the time it was one speed. On the new saw now there are choices. Are the choices made only on blade size or more to it type of blade and materials you are cutting? different speed for melmine say than ripping solid with a low tooth count blade etc? This saw will take 12, 14 and 16 with 14" recommended in the manual.

[Jim Becker]

Warren, I would suspect that this is more a matter of adjusting the tip speed of the blade so you have generally the same tip speed regardless of the blade size you are using, both for the cut and for safety.

[peter gagliardi]

Well???.......... Drumming fingers on table......

[Patrick Walsh]

Still gotta pick it up but it’s mine..

Brought home the fence and all the loose bits.

Now i gotta get the sand blaster setup with the proper media for cast iron and aluminum. I have no idea but I’m sure I’ll figure it out.

Then I gotta start tearing the the thing apart and praying I can not only get it back together but that in the Ned it works o my expectations.

I am excited, only problem is I found a t23 I would also like and can’t afford both at the moment. Praying the t23 is there still in a couple months but I doubt it.

396785


Well???.......... Drumming fingers on table......

[Darcy Warner]

Just clean it up and use it. Screw sandblasting, way more work/mess than needed.

[Brian Holcombe]

Cool! Good luck with the saw, post many pictures as you progress.

[Matt Mattingley]

Just clean it up and use it. Screw sandblasting, way more work/mess than needed. Darcy sometimes some guys take a little bit of pride with there refurbishing of equipment. I’m sure you’ve taking a part one or two machines that you have Pride in. Not everybody is just flipping machines for $.

Patrick, keep your head up. Enjoy your new baby. You Do you have an absolutely great saw. And I love your pride. Make her your own!

I’m sure if you need the any part here or there, Darcy might be able to help you out. Since I love your passion, keep the thread going, maybe I’ll be able to help you out too. I don’t mind doing pro bono small jobs.

[Patrick Walsh]

That is one approach. Tbh as busy as I am probably the one I should be taking.


Just clean it up and use it. Screw sandblasting, way more work/mess than needed.

[Patrick Walsh]

I will do my best. Often I don’t take pictures of my work simply because I’m to busy working and just plain forget. I think this one is worth slowing down and documenting. I’ll probably need the photos later to put it back together. The photos I’ll probably also help others help me.


Cool! Good luck with the saw, post many pictures as you progress.

[Patrick Walsh]

Matt,

Do you own the above machine or have you also restored a machine or two in your time?

You hit the nail on the head and not to suggested that one person takes pride and another does not. I know that was not what you were suggesting, I just want to make that clear as to not insult anyone.

I get lots of flack from my peers within the trade regarding my love of machinery and tools. I think there are two types and or two trains of thought. One being “it’s the craftsman not tool” and I agree as I have done some of my nicest work with the crap tools in poor conditions. The same people that suggest the above say “this doesn’t matter and that doesn’t matter your to picky”. Now now offense to anyone but this is normally the guy that’s ok with a pocket screw holding his work together, and will say if you can’t see it when everything is done what’s the difference. This same guy will often except less than perfect work as most times they just dont have what it really takes to execute perfection.

Now I have a bench mate whom is a great cabinet maker “like great”. We will bring a brand new machine into the shop say a Scmi timesaver, Martin jointer, or 630 class Scmi 24” planer and the first thing he wants to do is put a drink down on a cast table and or write on the machine or scratch it up so he no longer has to baby it. When my boss and I look as him like “NO” take care of this or else he immediately goes into it’s just a machine rant it’s supposed to get beat up.

Again what’s my point. My point is I really don’t think he wants to ruin the machine. But he is the first guy to just accept a machine when it losses its tollerances and is not working properly. He just assume find a work around with his work than figure out how to fix the machine. The above I think is a good example of a person that would think why spend all the time making a tool work perfect and look pretty as both are not needed to produce good work.

I am a custom cabinet maker by trade and also shop manager at this point. Just building cabinetry as I do is a huge compromise to my moral integrity as a craftsman. It pays the bills and at least for me pays them well. The best part or maybe most valuable part is my boss is a gem and I’d nearly work for him for free if I could. Doing what I do is better than doing something you hate everyday and I for the most part enjoy it. It however does not allow me to take the ABSOLUTE pride that is built into my moral code as a builder/craftsman/artist into account really ever. I have to continually call things good enough and continue to get things out of the shop and into the spray booth. This allows me the $$ to realize my passions on my own time and execute such all the while I get paid to build and learn I guess all be it a different skill set generally than where my interest really are. There is still some overlap of skill set and joy vrs just the starightnup druggery I found in finish carpentry, general carpentry and site work. There is way to much good enough attitude in that arena for me to handle on a daily basis.

I’ll be building a number of passage doors for my house this winter. I think I posted on it. I’ll build them double integral tenon yada yada when I know I could easily make a door near the same quality with a domino xl and a couple stacked slot cutters.My feeling is if that the case I’m kinda not interested in making them and should just purchase the dam things and build something I will enjoy building and take some pride in. When I do have time to do my own work I want a challenge and something to be proud of when I’m done that for once I know I slowed all the way down on, took the time to attend to every detail and threw every screw up intothe scrap bin every time a piece was not perfect and didn’t just make it work or say nobody will ever know but me.

I’m scared to embark on the full restoration of the machine above as I know it’s going to become a major chore. I do however know when it’s all done and if I can get the machine running perfect I’ll be as excited as if I had purchased the brand new $75K T75. Further every time I use it it will put a smile on my face and inspire me to build beautiful beautiful work with it everytime I turn it on.


Darcy sometimes some guys take a little bit of pride with there refurbishing of equipment. I’m sure you’ve taking a part one or two machines that you have Pride in. Not everybody is just flipping machines for $.

Patrick, keep your head up. Enjoy your new baby. You Do you have an absolutely great saw. And I love your pride. Make her your own!

I’m sure if you need the any part here or there, Darcy might be able to help you out. Since I love your passion, keep the thread going, maybe I’ll be able to help you out too. I don’t mind doing pro bono small jobs.

[Patrick Walsh]

In light of the conversation started above....

I found this goodling about looking to find the best paint suited toward machinery restoration. I have access to a fun time finisher as we have one on staff. He however is a cabinet painter and really only knows conversion varnish as it’s his preferred finish. He is capable of using other finishes but may or may not know as much about them as anyone else.

Point is I’m not gonna be happy with just rattle can rustoleum or the like nor am I gonna be happy with letting another person do the paint work as I also know how to spray and in my experience people are just never as meticulous as you want them to be.

I still don’t know what paint I’ll use but I’m leaning toward the highly toxic two part aircraft type enamel paints that you had better know what you are doing to use or you might get cancer and or just may never dry if you don’t mix catalyst and base properly.

Some good insight from the gentleman linked bellow. Plus I like his persnickety attitude toward perfectionism and knowing what one is doing. Per his suggestions I should not be doing what I’m about to do lol...

Thank god this is a table saw and not a machinist lathe.

https://www.csparks.com/Restoring/index.xhtml

[Darcy Warner]

Darcy sometimes some guys take a little bit of pride with there refurbishing of equipment. I’m sure you’ve taking a part one or two machines that you have Pride in. Not everybody is just flipping machines for $.

Patrick, keep your head up. Enjoy your new baby. You Do you have an absolutely great saw. And I love your pride. Make her your own!

I’m sure if you need the any part here or there, Darcy might be able to help you out. Since I love your passion, keep the thread going, maybe I’ll be able to help you out too. I don’t mind doing pro bono small jobs.

I will ignore part of you drabble.

That saw is pretty clean and in pretty good shape.

Paint can easily be fixed by doing spot repairs.

Taking it completely apart and blasting it will lead to a year long project for someone doing this for fun (or maybe what, 2 almost 3 years)

I would clean it, lube it, adjust it, then go from there.

No sense mindlessly tearing it all apart just for the sake of it.

[Patrick Walsh]

Darcy,

Part of me does tend to agree.

What I really care about is that the sliding table be setup perfectly to the cast table. That both tables be perfectly flat and free of twist. If not they are being re ground. That the blade is actually hits 90% and 45% with precision accuracy in a repeatable manner. That all fence scales are accurate and setup so. That the rise, fall and tilt mechanism work effortlessly and that every bearing on the machine has zero wear or play. That the machine run as smooth as a top wibration free. I’m not much for telltale noises that indicate something wrong or soon to be. And yes I guess I do care about cosmetics it’s just who I am. On the other hand I’m a busy guy that works 60 plus hours a week to afford the things he wants and still be able to eat. I also have a dog that want me to go walk him RIGHT NOW! Not the same commitment as a kid but it does desert some of my free time..

I also care that I just get all this straightened away before I put the machine into service as I will not have the desire later to make such repairs and will just curse myself for buying a old lead weight.

I have a fully functioning shop at home along with a fully functioning shop at work with a t73 Martin slider soon to be setup. So you know this machine really is a luxury for me. We will see where my ambition lands me when I get the machine to my place of employment where I have the room to really get into it and see what I think.




I will ignore part of you drabble.

That saw is pretty clean and in pretty good shape.

Paint can easily be fixed by doing spot repairs.

Taking it completely apart and blasting it will lead to a year long project for someone doing this for fun (or maybe what, 2 almost 3 years)

I would clean it, lube it, adjust it, then go from there.

No sense mindlessly tearing it all apart just for the sake of it.

[Patrick Walsh]

Pretty cool if your into such stuff.

396812

396813

396814

396815

[Darcy Warner]

Good old hand translated martin manuals. I have a few with white out over words, pictures cut out and glued in etc.

Too many times I witness the blind dissasmbly of a machine, just because and it either take years to put back together or get hung up on something that could have been sorted before making one piece into 500.

I would set it up, clean, adjust, take inventory of all the little things that need attention or repaired and go from there. These are big saws with lots of parts.

I dont like a paint job just for a paint job. You only get the natural wear and patina once on a machine.

I have a 30" buss planer that is my user, original paint, but it is worn off tops of the frame so much the castings are almost polished, the top of motor is worn shiny from lumber being slid across it. I wanted to paint it, but I can just picture all the lumber slid across it, guys leaning on it shooting the breeze, etc. and cant bring myself to do it. It runs like a dream.

[Brian Holcombe]

Yes, be careful when you take things apart. I like to do small disassemblies and take pictures of the process so that I can refer to them later. You never know how useful they are until a month later when you’re ‘wondering about that shim’ or what have you. Disassembly is as important as assembly and careful documentation is key. Often enough I will loose reassemble right after breaking the part down so that I don’t forget how it goes back together.

Rather than break the machine down to bolts you can break down and restore individual sections, like the fence, motor, sliding assembly individually then restore and set them aside. I do this wherever practical. You can restore the entire machine in sub-assemblies and it will help you from feeling overwhelmed.

By the time I sold my 67 Camaro I could tell you where a bolt came from by its style and measure, but when you’re first getting into a new machine your knowledge base is more surface level (what you can read and see in photos) after you break a few of them down it becomes more tactile. When I started the car I just built one section at a time beginning with the differential and rear suspension, bought a new housing, worked it up to what I wanted. When everything was prepped I took the old one out and restored the back half of the car, then back together again. Did the same on the front half of the car, then did the middle. After which I did the interior. At the same time I know other fellows who were breaking the entire thing down to components then restoring from the ground up, a fine way to go once you really know those cars well.

So my point is that I think it wise to get your feet wet with the small parts and get them perfect before you move on to the mass of the machine, it's backwards from how one would approach it professionally but gives you a chance to build up familiarity and experience before going 'whole hog'.

Im not experienced in industrial machines, but have worked on many a car and engine, so I’m speaking from that experience.

[Jim Becker]

I kinda agree with Brian...the less you can take things apart, the better, so once you have the machine in-house (literally :) ), the first thing I'd be doing is checking all those alignment things and smooth operation things to see if it's dialed-in or close enough to just adjust and also clean/lubricate for the smoothness. You may not need to do any more than that if you are truly lucky and that means you can get to using it or then decide if you want to spiff up the look or not.

[Patrick Walsh]

Jim, Brian, Darcy..

My plan has been to start small.

I have the loose bits of the machine that can easily be removed with kip levers and the such. Mostly the sliding table extrusions and support and all the accessories. I’m tempted to get into these pieces and start disassembling, stripping, sandblasting what have you before I dive into the machine proper.

My intuition is as suggested above and to first get the whole machine in my possession set it up plug it in make some cuts and check my workpieces and see what I come up with. Based on that I’ll get out the straight edges and dial indicators.

Then and only then I’ll decide exactly what I’m gonna and not gonna do. I see not point in stripping down the random piece her and there only to find I decide I don’t want to restore the whole machine to brand new condition. To be honest I’m prepared to and inclined to do a full restoration as I know long term that’s what I’ll be most happy with. On the other hand I do understand the value in a vintage machine in good condition with all its years of patina and character. I like and appreciate both so I guess we will see when I take possession of the machine in a couple weeks.

Right now I’m busy building a Krenov style cabinet for my dog that passed a few weeks ago ashes. I’m sure this could keep me busy for a couple more months of my free time. Beyond that I have like 8-9 interior passage doors and jambs to make over the winter. As you can see I’m a busy guy.

All the while I’m scamming and scheming on how the heck I can purchase the t23 shaper I found before someone else gets to it. I’ll so freaking bummed as I don’t think they come up often. The two machines just in working order would be a dream to me and save me like $70-80k compared to my plan to purchase brand new.

[peter gagliardi]

IF you take it apart, there are a few areas to pay attention to:
The rise and fall has a tube assembly with a coil spring inside , if I remember correctly. It is pretty strong, and a bit tricky to get apart and back together without getting hurt.
The two piece front adjusting wheels can also be tricky to dis, and re-assemble. Lining some of it up takes some care.

But, by far, the sliding table races will probably take hours, or even days to get accurately set up again.

With good dust collection, the tilt and rise and fall will work perfectly for years with regular lubrication.

Congrats!, and enjoy what I have found to be the most enjoyable old cast iron full size slider out there to use, even without the high tech gadgets.

[Patrick Walsh]

Peter,

I took notice of the spring assembly reading Mr. Heneberry’s thread on his T-17 restoration. I am sure I will be asking a couple exact questions regarding how to safely get the cast top off and the spring apart without breaking anything including myself. I would imagine a spring compressor of some sort much like when removing a spring that is compressed onto a strut?

When I went to look at the machine I did take a look inside the machine. It was dark but I was able to use my phone to get some light. The first thing I noticed was the large shaft/rod and spring assembly. I thought “oh boy” that’s gonna be fun, yikes!

I was pleasantly surprised at just how new things looked under there though. The chains and gears that control the rise fall and tilt we’re much more massive that I would have expected even after seeing pictures. They were however much cleaner than I would had thought being the rise and fall was not effortless to operate.

Can you specify races regarding getting the tables aligned. I would imagine you are talking about whatever bearings are mounted to the cast sliding table and or trapped between the sliding table and extrusion it rides on. To be honest I have no idea other than the small flat metal rips that are glued to either surface what the sling table mechanics are comprised of. On more modern sliders I am able to see a wheel on a bearing of some sort. I imagine this machine is much the same. I know at least one of these metal strips will require some attention as it is coming free. Oddly enough in the Martin manual it refers to these metal tracks the slider runs on and how to remglue them and with what to use in the event they should come loose.

You kinda have me nervous with your coment re aligning the sliding table but I suppose the same will go for any machine new or used if things are not to my liking. It will be a learning experience and skill I feel I should have being what I do for a living and for fun for that matter. Relaxing on machinery technicians to service a working shops machines is not practical. Often it’s also disappointing as most techs opinion regarding Woodworking machinery is “its wood not metal” and thus good enough even when it’s still to working optimally.

u
IF you take it apart, there are a few areas to pay attention to:
The rise and fall has a tube assembly with a coil spring inside , if I remember correctly. It is pretty strong, and a bit tricky to get apart and back together without getting hurt.
The two piece front adjusting wheels can also be tricky to dis, and re-assemble. Lining some of it up takes some care.

But, by far, the sliding table races will probably take hours, or even days to get accurately set up again.

With good dust collection, the tilt and rise and fall will work perfectly for years with regular lubrication.

Congrats!, and enjoy what I have found to be the most enjoyable old cast iron full size slider out there to use, even without the high tech gadgets.

[peter gagliardi]

I do not know how your races are on that era saw. Mine are one piece blocks of steel about 1- 1 1/4” square by 8’ long with vees milled the length. The balls ride in the races for the length of slide. There are adjusting nuts, locknuts and threaded studs every few inches along the length to hold and adjust the races to get the slider in perfect alignment with the main saw.
It sounds like you may have a newer, more wear resistant version similar to my PreX.

If you do tackle the sliding carriage, feeler gauges, dial indicators and precision straightedges need to be in your toolkit.

[Patrick Walsh]

WOW!

That sounds like fun.....

NOT.

But it sounds like if I go the full restoration route I’m gonna be forced into it.

Thanks again.

Any idea what a good condition 70-80’s t23 is worth?


I do not know how your races are on that era saw. Mine are one piece blocks of steel about 1- 1 1/4” square by 8’ long with vees milled the length. The balls ride in the races for the length of slide. There are adjusting nuts, locknuts and threaded studs every few inches along the length to hold and adjust the races to get the slider in perfect alignment with the main saw.
It sounds like you may have a newer, more wear resistant version similar to my PreX.

If you do tackle the sliding carriage, feeler gauges, dial indicators and precision straightedges need to be in your toolkit.

[Darcy Warner]

WOW!

That sounds like fun.....

NOT.

But it sounds like if I go the full restoration route I’m gonna be forced into it.

Thanks again.

Any idea what a good condition 70-80’s t23 is worth?

Apparently around 7k.

Gomads version of that shaper looks almost identical and was an awesome machine. One of the most underrated manufacturers out there.

[Patrick Walsh]

And where do you get the apparently from.

I take it you must also be aware of the machine I am speaking of?

[Darcy Warner]

And where do you get the apparently from.

I take it you must also be aware of the machine I am speaking of?

Not much gets by my radar.

[Darcy Warner]

Ok, maybe 900 more than 7k....

[Warren Lake]

third attempt guess no words nothing sticks






396863

[peter gagliardi]

And for 7900, it better be just about perfect, especially if no tenoning table.
I have always liked the Gomads- built really well.

[Darcy Warner]

third attempt guess no words nothing sticks






396863

Great machine right there. Simple, easy to use, built like a tank.

[Patrick Walsh]

Nomthe $7900 has a tennon table.

Still seems like a ton of $$ considering.

I get all in a frenzy thinking when will the next one in decent shape come along. On the other hand I get emails daily from euro websites and I see t23’s Bourels “I know that’s not how you spell it, kolle and a few others such as the one in the above picture listed all the time for what I think is short money.

Sure by the time I get it there praying everything is as should be, hook it up to a inverter “I know nothing about” it seems like $7900 is kinda spot on even though I think it should be more like $5K

[Patrick Walsh]

It will be really important to me that whatever I get for a shaper with a tenon table that the table can get right up against the spindle for the most part.

[Darcy Warner]

Bauerle. IMO, the SMF/2 is probably one of the best built shapers ever. Wish mine had the sliding table option, but just finding one here is almost impossible. 396871

[Darcy Warner]

It will be really important to me that whatever I get for a shaper with a tenon table that the table can get right up against the spindle for the most part.

If you can find a gomad, they are awesome.

396873

[Darcy Warner]

Personally, I prefer to tenon and cope on a single end tenoner vs. a shaper.

[Patrick Walsh]

Wow on the Bauerle..

Another machine I’d consider importing if I could get so motivated.

I’m sure you have seen the old SCMI L Invincible shaper on Craigslist. I’m tempted by it but I know nothing of them other than the assumption that if they are at least as well built “and probably more so” as the 80’s t130 we have at work it must be a very nice machine in good working order.

Looks like it can be had for what I call short money. No tenon table but throw one of those spindles on it Joe put on his t23 some Aigner fences and you would have one sweet machine. Same with the Bauerle..

[Mel Fulks]

Personally, I prefer to tenon and cope on a single end tenoner vs. a shaper.
I agree. And they don't seem to be expensive now.

[Darcy Warner]

Wow on the Bauerle..

Another machine I’d consider importing if I could get so motivated.

I’m sure you have seen the old SCMI L Invincible shaper on Craigslist. I’m tempted by it but I know nothing of them other than the assumption that if they are at least as well built “and probably more so” as the 80’s t130 we have at work it must be a very nice machine in good working order.

Looks like it can be had for what I call short money. No tenon table but throw one of those spindles on it Joe put on his t23 some Aigner fences and you would have one sweet machine. Same with the Bauerle..

I have a 1969 T160, power tilt, power rise and fall, oil pump lube system for bearings (according to SCM they never made such a thing....) yes I have been considering having that other t160 shipped to me. They are tanks, great, great shapers.

The bauerle runs up to 12k rpm and parts are still available.

[Joe Calhoon]

The old iron US and Brit push pull single end tenoners are solid machines but not very versatile or easy to change from one profile to another. They are from an era when products were made in mass quantities. Today it is all about being effective at one off and small batches.
Tooling is more expensive but sliding table shapers will run circles around the old iron tenoners. If you want to step up from that look at 80s and 90s era single end tenoners from Europe. Panhans, Okoma Kolle etc. and a step up from that are modern day CNC tenoners from Europe.
For home hobby use or small pro shops a sliding table shaper is versatile and effective.
396884
396885
396886

[Darcy Warner]

The old iron US and Brit push pull single end tenoners are solid machines but not very versatile or easy to change from one profile to another. They are from an era when products were made in mass quantities. Today it is all about being effective at one off and small batches.
Tooling is more expensive but sliding table shapers will run circles around the old iron tenoners. If you want to step up from that look at 80s and 90s era single end tenoners from Europe. Panhans, Okoma Kolle etc. and a step up from that are modern day CNC tenoners from Europe.
For home hobby use or small pro shops a sliding table shaper is versatile and effective.
396884
396885
396886

Run circles?

It doesn't take much time to swap out cope discs on my 532's. Keep a few around loaded with different profiles.

I guess if you don't have any room for anything a shaper can be a one trick pony, but I still prefer working large pieces (12 to 24" wide) on my old dinosaur tenoners.

[Martin Wasner]

and a step up from that are modern day CNC tenoners from Europe.


I want a Friulmac in the worst way for coping door rails. Too bad they eat up an acre of floor space and I don't have the throughput to justify such beasty.

[Martin Wasner]

I guess if you don't have any room for anything a shaper can be a one trick pony,


Does anyone really have room to spare?

[Patrick Walsh]

I have zero room to spare.

You guys will laugh but all these machines are going in my 1000sq ft basement shop. I suppose if I really wanted I could rent space in the building I work work but I much prefer to just loaf down stairs to my shop.

I’ll try and dig up a phot of the door these two machines will have to fit through.

Alll said I’m looking at the t75, a t23 orbt12 with tenon table. My s500p a Felder f700z, probably my t54 and then the matching planer to replace my Felder j/p combo as I own the t54 at this point, a slot mortiser that I’ll replave with a Myles and Wysong or Macao and a drill press. Oh and a rather extensive collection of exotic lumber and a 28x109 6” thick Roubo. You’d be surprised but I have plenty of room for one guy to build one off projects in there, even a kitchen or two at this point. No room for a widebelt but I kinda loath sanders anyway.



Nomthe $7900 has a tennon table.

Still seems like a ton of $$ considering.

I get all in a frenzy thinking when will the next one in decent shape come along. On the other hand I get emails daily from euro websites and I see t23’s Bourels “I know that’s not how you spell it, kolle and a few others such as the one in the above picture listed all the time for what I think is short money.

Sure by the time I get it there praying everything is as should be, hook it up to a inverter “I know nothing about” it seems like $7900 is kinda spot on even though I think it should be more like $5K

[Darcy Warner]

Not once you set the t75 up. 16'x16' square.

[Joe Calhoon]

Run circles?

It doesn't take much time to swap out cope discs on my 532's. Keep a few around loaded with different profiles.

I guess if you don't have any room for anything a shaper can be a one trick pony, but I still prefer working large pieces (12 to 24" wide) on my old dinosaur tenoners.

Nope, no room for big dinosaurs in my small shop.
Curious how you would set the 532s up for profiled angled double tenons and slots and how long to change between slot and tenon. And the finger joints of the curve segments?

396887

396888
396889

[Patrick Walsh]

Yeah I know..

well in my case 21x13 will be dedicated to the t75 with the room needed for longer cuts to the left blade possible just maybe not always just sitting there ready. To date I have a sawstop with a 4x8 outfeed table that in many ways takes up the same space. Sure it’s 8x8 but it’s still hogs up the same 21x13’ space for the most part.

[Patrick Walsh]

Joe,

You do some very nice work.

No room for single end tenoner in my shop. Gonna be getting creative to do what I’m doing and or selling the house that is 20 minutes outside Boston in a annoying suburb and moving to the country and building my dream house/shop combo.

The commute will stink to instal and or if I ever need to a take a job back closer to the city but you know were I am is just plane annoyingnin it’s own ways so. Everything is a compromise right?


Nomthe $7900 has a tennon table.

Still seems like a ton of $$ considering.

I get all in a frenzy thinking when will the next one in decent shape come along. On the other hand I get emails daily from euro websites and I see t23’s Bourels “I know that’s not how you spell it, kolle and a few others such as the one in the above picture listed all the time for what I think is short money.

Sure by the time I get it there praying everything is as should be, hook it up to a inverter “I know nothing about” it seems like $7900 is kinda spot on even though I think it should be more like $5K

[Darcy Warner]

I don't double tenon. Reproduction sashes are not doubled, at least none I have ever seen in the midwest.

I can set the fence at any angle I want, or I have blocks I made for off angles.

I have finger joint head for my shaper and it also fits the cope spindles on my brontosaurus.

Handy little things, those brontosaurus's

[Mel Fulks]

Joe, you have a good point there about changes in quantities made at one time. But in Virginia and other East coast states
there are still big public and private restorations, additions, and people that just keep buying stuff that seems to most people completely unneeded.

[Joe Calhoon]

Mel, I agree about the large restorations. I am familiar with several east coast shops. My argument though is the sliding table shaper or modern tenoner is a lot more versatile and quick to change than the old push pull tenoners. High end restoration can vary a lot for door and window profiles. One shop in Connecticut has to offer several thickness and profiles for doors and windows spanning from the 1600s up to the early 1900s. This makes for a lot of change over of tooling.

The downside of the high tech machines is not every shop has staff that can adopt to the newer technology. A lot of large companies put in CNC thinking it will solve skilled labor shortages and that usually does not work.

[Patrick Walsh]

This should give a few the opportunity for a good laugh or head shake.

The first three pictures bellow show my current table saw setup. This is essentially where the new t75 will go. Clearly I have a couple obstructions to tend to. First that pine ship lap wall is non structural and will have to go. Then the grey lally column seen I think in the second picture front and center will also have to go.

The plan is a structural steel I beam to replace it. Chances are it’s going to go right under the solid wood beam that’s there now. This beam pretty much holds my house up. It is actually the intersection of another wood beam that runs down the center of my house following the ridge line of my roof and forming a T with the wood beam I will be replacing with structural steel. The structural steel will be held up my two very massive footings at either end I’ll have to break through the floor to pour. No big deal really lol. Truely it really is not a big deal, a bit of a pain in the bum but really very straight forward. FYI I have a background building and renovating custom homes. A engineer will be hired to spec everything out for me and some hired muscle to help me get the beam into place.


Overall view of saw area panning to right
396899


View panning to left
396900

Picture looking at lally column and wooden beam that will become structural steel I-beam.
396901

Doing the work above will give me a dedicated 22x16’ footprint for the slider and dust collector, lumber on walls and clamps I hope.

Next up is a picture of the door opening into my shop. Clearly I have a issue there also. I will be cutting the foundation open for a double door entry. These are two of the passage doors I’ll be building over the winter. I’m pretty sure this is also going to require the sill plate spanning the door opening to be replaced with structural steel. No big deal either as I’m also in the process of re shingling and trimming out the exterior of my house.

396903

And then the spot for the t23 shaper if I can muster up another $7-10k before someone else buys it. If not a brand new t12 will end up there probably next fall. I’ll have to get rid of that pile of lumber. Mostly that pile is a bunch of 8/4 cvgdf and cvgayc to make about ten passage doors for a master bedroom addition I started a few years ago and have yet to finish. The rest is BEM and I don’t know where it’s going?

The shaper will have plenty of in feed and outfeed as all I’ll have to do is open the back door lol. I also have a Felder f700z hiding around another corner with limited outfeed.

396904

Im a pretty busy guy right. Kinda funny really..

[Warren Lake]

smaller one non tilting, tenning jig, spindle brace

396913

[Patrick Walsh]

Pretty cool but that’s just the same tennon jig as I use on our t110 at work. It’s fine but you know “not what I want lol”

What is that machine thought, it’s so cute I want one just based on the cute factor. Looks like something A pack of elves would use in Santa’s workshop.

[Patrick Walsh]

Reminds me of something this guy would use...

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=j1M4bBqms7U


smaller one non tilting, tenning jig, spindle brace

396913

[peter gagliardi]

That is another Bauerle-SFM 0, or 01.
With that amount of work needing done to house a shop, I personally would be seriously looking selling it and finding another place with a ground level barn, or the room to build one.
Basements are ok if its all you have, as a make do, but it doesn’t compare to real dedicated ground level space.

Says the guy who lives 32 miles from his shop........

[Joe Calhoon]

Those pot belly Bauerle shapers are sweet. At Fenster Bau one company has one set up with a sanding drum. Very smooth running!

this Bauerle would be nice to find. Pretty rare in the US though. Most of the Euro makers offered a saw on the shapers with side mount tables in the 70s and 80s. Martin had one with the Festo LAS fence.
396914

[Darcy Warner]

Anything Bauerle is hard to find.

[Patrick Walsh]

I could not agree more peter regarding a ground floor shop.

Being your from Mass I can tell you I live in Natick and work is in Stow Ma near Hudson. That’s a 30mminute commute. Our shop is the fourth fooor of a old mill building. We have a temperamental freight elevator and about 2500 sq ft of shop space. It’s really just enough room for two guys to work compfortible. Fourth floor is less than ideal but we make it work for cheap rent.

Point being I clearly get what I’m doing I not ideal. Again it is just for hobby for the most part. I’ll build one off pieces of furniture from time to time along with the odd side job and or work from home when I needed.

I could move but moving is work in of itself. I don’t much like where I live as it’s congestion hell the people are not my type and everything is just to much. On the other hand I’ve never been without work in the trades in 25 years. I almost feel obligated to stay right where I am for no other reason than making a living. I don’t want the 1-1.5 hr commute most that live work and work east deal with. I much prefer that to be my overtime. I also know once I go west I’ll never ever be able to afford to go back east. I’m just turning 41 this year so I have many years left to work to consider.

I also have a garden full of mature specimen trees I built over the years, almost my own mini arboretum. I could have purchased a t75 brand new and probably t27 building it, I’m pretty attached to it, It’s my second hobby. I could pay arborist to dig all the trees and move them but again that’s big $$$ and really not realistic.

Idealy I’d live very far in western mass, northern Vermont or mid coast Maine. To be honest I’d love nothing more than the Canadian Rockies. I just dont see being able to make a living as a cabinet maker or a respectabl living as any form of tradesman any of those places. To be perfectly honest I’ll do what I have to do but I havee no interest in ever swinging a hammer for a living again and I’d probably have to do so to live anywhere else with the skills I have to offer the job market.

Bellow is a attached image of my dream. If I had the courage or stupidity it’s exactly what i would do. Buy a parcel of land and build a brand new dwelling. With my background I could do it very inexpensive if I kept things modern, simple and minimal simular to the pictures below. The dream would be to do so in the middle of say 25-50 acres, built into a sloap or grade so one end is kinda suspended in mid air. The basement would be poured with like 15’ ceilings and the footprint of the home like 2000sq ft with an additional 1000 sq ft basement giving me 3k sq ft unobstructed shop space largely completely under ground. One side or “ the open side” would be just a a giant wall of glass doors that can completely open.

To be honest I think I could build this type home for fairly short money someplace like the above. I could easily trade my now home for one. The problem then becomes how to make a living hence my silly basement shop. I just don’t think I’m that kind of risk taker. The idea of swinging a hammer freezing my butt off surounded by a bunch of meat heads, humping this and bumping that, bad back, sore feet cold hands. One day doing fine finish work the next doing demo work framing wal,, roofing or installing windows has zero appeal to me. I just assume starve at this point.


https://hiconsumption.com/2017/02/honomobo-shipping-container-homes/








That is another Bauerle-SFM 0, or 01.
With that amount of work needing done to house a shop, I personally would be seriously looking selling it and finding another place with a ground level barn, or the room to build one.
Basements are ok if its all you have, as a make do, but it doesn’t compare to real dedicated ground level space.

Says the guy who lives 32 miles from his shop........

[Joe Calhoon]

Here is the ultimate feeder - saw setup on a Martin. Turns the shaper into a respectable SET. Common in German shops but never seen one here.

396915

[Patrick Walsh]

Wow joe that machine is slick if nothing else..

How did this happaen to me. How does one become enamered with high end and vintage wood working machinery and tools.

Seems a few of us share the same affliction..


Those pot belly Bauerle shapers are sweet. At Fenster Bau one company has one set up with a sanding drum. Very smooth running!

this Bauerle would be nice to find. Pretty rare in the US though. Most of the Euro makers offered a saw on the shapers with side mount tables in the 70s and 80s. Martin had one with the Festo LAS fence.
396914

[Patrick Walsh]

Well looks like all my talk of the t23 might just have motivated someone else considering the machine to beat me to it.

It’s no longer listed on wood web. I suppose one vintage machine at a time is plenty considering my list of todo’s...

Still kinda sad :(

[David Kumm]

Those pictures make me want to get back in the hunt for the tenoning table for my T21. I have three sliding table shapers but the old Martin doesn't look complete without the table. Dave

[Kevin Jenness]

Patrick, I can assure you that someone with your abilities would not starve in northern VT or midcoast ME. No doubt there is not as much high end work as around Boston, but there are shops making it doing good work, a lot of it for second homes owned by Massholes and other flatlanders. Life is too short to live in a hellhole.

[Patrick Walsh]

Kevin,

I don’t quite know how to respond so I’ll start with one fo a few thoughts.

First, I couldn’t of put it so eloquently if I said it myself.

Second, are you sure not reading my mind.

Third, you don’t say. I know of Birdseye up I think I your way as I used to work for a company that built a house for a client that used Birdseye for his second home or rather third or fourth home actually up your way. This client told me he could eaily get me a job if I really wanted to relocate. I then sold a bandsaw to a guy that actually previously worked for Birdseye but was now on his own.

I guess I assume the job market a bit tighter up there and you had better be well connected up both if you need to be well connected down here.

Beyond that and I have spent a fair amount of time in Vermont both recreating and with friends that were native Vermonters I’m told most northern are not very welcoming of outsiders.

I’m well aware there is a market of second home owners retirees and the well to do in all these locations. My fear is just there are more people vying for these jobs and when the market turns “and I bet it does in the next number of years” it’s gonna be pretty hard to get by.

I also have zero interest in doing anything other than shop based work. I’ll instal but not if it’s my daily gig as I really don’t enjoy it even the slightest. Sadly I’m really good at it. I’m just over dusty, dirty, cold job sites with three people doing something different in the same space, crap everywhere, move this, now move that, your in my way, I’m in your way and a GC whom could care less what kinda pain in yur butt it is or isn’t mad just wants it done yesterday and it better be perfect.

But I’m all in on the Masshole thing. Just went out to get a coffee on a Sunday afternoon and walk my dog and I nearly lost my mind!


Patrick, I can assure you that someone with your abilities would not starve in northern VT or midcoast ME. No doubt there is not as much high end work as around Boston, but there are shops making it doing good work, a lot of it for second homes owned by Massholes and other flatlanders. Life is too short to live in a hellhole.

[Kevin Jenness]

Patrick,

No doubt you are right that the market is smaller up here. I don't know if it is harder to get by in hard times up here or not, I just know that I have gotten by and expect to in the future. Seems like there is usually space for someone with talent and a good attitude. Joe Calhoon seems to make it in the wilds of Ouray, CO and I get the impression that he takes a day off for skiing when he wants to, as I do. Everything is a tradeoff, I choose to live where I can walk out my door into the woods and go a couple of miles before I hit a road. I'm not trying to sell you on it, just saying it's not that big a reach.

It's funny you mention Birdseye. I worked in their shop 4 miles down the road for 14 years before going back on my own, and still sub some jobs for them. Yeah, it included installs, but 98% of it was shop work. Plenty of straight casework, veneer, doors and the occasional piece of furniture. They have a well regarded architectural studio, so there are some interesting challenges from that end. There are always compromises in making it good enough and keeping the cost in line, but they walk the line pretty well most days.

On my bandsaw is a quote from a Wooden Boat interview with a boatbuilder from New Hampshire, Bud Macintosh, that goes something like: " About the only thing you can say about an oldtimer who has survived a miserable occupation like this is that you have finally learned the balance between how good it should be and what they'll pay for, and how good it has to be before you lose your reputation." Unless their spouse works for Goldman Sachs I imagine everybody in the trades has to learn that balance.

Anyway, good luck shoehorning all that equipment into your basement!

[Patrick Walsh]

Started looking online again at propert in and around the mad river valley or Burlington.

Ideally I’d buy a lot if land and build.

I know the area pretty well. I raced bicycles for a number of years in my 20’s and had team mates that were native Vermonters and or UVM students and or professors. Dated a girl for the better part of a year from Burlington and kinda lived up there half the week.

Any suggestions as where to look these days if you did want to buy. I’m thinking Vergens, Hinseburg, and the like. Mostly stuff that’s just outside where second home owners want to be. It was about 15,years ago now since I was spending time that way. I assume much has changed since. Ideally I’d be on 15-20 acres and no more than 45 minutes to Burlington. Not that there is really anything in Burlington I need.


Patrick,

No doubt you are right that the market is smaller up here. I don't know if it is harder to get by in hard times up here or not, I just know that I have gotten by and expect to in the future. Seems like there is usually space for someone with talent and a good attitude. Joe Calhoon seems to make it in the wilds of Ouray, CO and I get the impression that he takes a day off for skiing when he wants to, as I do. Everything is a tradeoff, I choose to live where I can walk out my door into the woods and go a couple of miles before I hit a road. I'm not trying to sell you on it, just saying it's not that big a reach.

It's funny you mention Birdseye. I worked in their shop 4 miles down the road for 14 years before going back on my own, and still sub some jobs for them. Yeah, it included installs, but 98% of it was shop work. Plenty of straight casework, veneer, doors and the occasional piece of furniture. They have a well regarded architectural studio, so there are some interesting challenges from that end. There are always compromises in making it good enough and keeping the cost in line, but they walk the line pretty well most days.

On my bandsaw is a quote from a Wooden Boat interview with a boatbuilder from New Hampshire, Bud Macintosh, that goes something like: " About the only thing you can say about an oldtimer who has survived a miserable occupation like this is that you have finally learned the balance between how good it should be and what they'll pay for, and how good it has to be before you lose your reputation." Unless their spouse works for Goldman Sachs I imagine everybody in the trades has to learn that balance.

Anyway, good luck shoehorning all that equipment into your basement!

[Jim Becker]

Patrick, realtor.com and zillow.com can be helpful for you to see what's on the market in the areas you want to consider.

[Patrick Walsh]

Scoured them clean.

I always wonder if they track everything listed for sale or if your missing a bunch of stuff by not actually contacting local realtors..


Patrick, realtor.com and zillow.com can be helpful for you to see what's on the market in the areas you want to consider.

[Patrick Kane]

I think most major offices have their multi-list linked to zillow/realtor.com etc. So no, you shouldnt be missing much of anything thats being listed. That said, on the buyer's side, there really isnt anything to be lost by having an agent.

You should substitute bonsai for your garden trees. i can pick up and move my trees, but i cant really sit in their shade.

[Patrick Walsh]

Sadly I’ve got a pretty bad Bonsai habit also.

Wish I had better pictures of my good trees but I don’t..

396995396996396997396998396999
I think most major offices have their multi-list linked to zillow/realtor.com etc. So no, you shouldnt be missing much of anything thats being listed. That said, on the buyer's side, there really isnt anything to be lost by having an agent.

You should substitute bonsai for your garden trees. i can pick up and move my trees, but i cant really sit in their shade.

[Brian Holcombe]

Those trees are gorgeous!

[Patrick Walsh]

That’s nothing Brian,

Those photos do them no justice.

397000

397001

397002

397004

397005

6500lb acer triflorum

397006

Niwaki scots Pine..

397007

My baby, lions head Japanese maple or shisyshashigralagralgral or something like that lol



397009




Those trees are gorgeous!

[Patrick Walsh]

Styled and bent the crap out of this larch last year and sadly killed it :(

397010

397011

Again these pictures do the trees no justice. They have all bow been in the ground for a good five years. I have quite a few more I have not shared pictures of as they are very hard to get good pictures of.

It will be really really hard to leave this all behind. I really should had stuck to Bonsai. Only issue with Bonsai is its real easy to spend 10K on a tree. At least the ones I put in the ground cost I think at most 5-6K a piece. Most like 3k I’d say a piece without planting yada yada..

[Brian Holcombe]

Mine are mainly $25 pre bonsai, I planted two of the black pines and have been working them into Niwaki, two more in pots and s couple others.

You’re garden looks great, if you sell you should stipulate that it comes with you.

[Patrick Walsh]

I also have a fair amount of pre Bonsai. That is where I started then I got carried away.

Well not so much compared to some, I have been to people’s gardens with 100-300 trees. I think I have like 20 trees, maybe 30. Half are pre Bonsai or $3-500 trees. Stuff that’s really no big deal to purchaseby Bonsai standard if you have the bug.

My problem has become that the longer I have been into Bonsai the more expensive my taste has become. I remember the first tree I spent like $350-500 on. I thought I was nuts. Now I see trees in the $5000-10000K range and start talking myself into buying them telling myself I’m not being completely nuts to spend that kind of money on a tree. That it’s mkney well spent as I’ll have it forever yada yada and people spend money on stuff they have nothing to show for in the Ned all the time and at least I don’t do that. It’s a huge scam I run on myself.

Now don’t go thinking I have a whole garden of $5-10K trees as I don’t. I have become pretty ok with spending $3-5 on a single tree though. I am finding that’s what you really need to be willing to spend to buy something half way nice without crazy flaws. Even in that price range your still buying someone else problem. Normally though at this price range they are problems that can be tended to over 3-10 years.

There is the create your own Bonsai from scratch route. You know the pre Bonsai as you mentioned. I can’t help but have a few trees with a realized vison while I’m Waiting by my pre Bonsai for the next 50 years to turn into something I’m in awe of every time I stop to look at it.

The trees give my mind a break from all the Woodworking.




Mine are mainly $25 pre bonsai, I planted two of the black pines and have been working them into Niwaki, two more in pots and s couple others.

You’re garden looks great, if you sell you should stipulate that it comes with you.

[peter gagliardi]

I see your boss has the machine you spoke of listed.
I also know a guy who might be interested in talking to you ,employment-wise if you do consider the Berkshires as an option......

[Patrick Walsh]

Peter

Yes we listed the Altendorf. Me on Craigslist him on WOODWEB.

For his sake I hope he gets what he is asking. He is a really good guy and bends over backward to be good to others.

If I do make it out that way I would greatly appreciate any help you could offer. Facts are it will be at least about a year to my house in order to sell. Generally it’s in very good shape. I however have to finish a few projects I started before I could even consider putting it on the market.

Been here so long it will be very hard to leave. I suspect I just need to cut the cord. Once I do I dont think I’ll do any looking in the rear view mirror.

I suppose I could just stop buying machines and trees and maybe buy a piece of land out that way put a yurt up temporarily while I build a house. If I did something like that I could keep the house I’m in now and get like $2500-3K for rent a month.

I see your boss has the machine you spoke of listed.
I also know a guy who might be interested in talking to you ,employment-wise if you do consider the Berkshires as an option......

[Darcy Warner]

I can barely stand to mow the yard. I landscape with roundup

[Martin Wasner]

I can barely stand to mow the yard. I landscape with roundup

I hate it too. I was kicking around green concrete in my tiny yard

[Patrick Walsh]

I’ll do anything to slow the brain down, like ANYTHING ! Well I don’t drink and if I don’t drink I don’t do goofballs so...

I’m not really a fan of mowing the lawn and or picking up the leaves. I actually despise lawn from a moral standpoint.

My yard/garden requires a fair amount of commitment. After spending what I have on it your sure as hell are gonna maintain it. It has kinda a self motivating affect. If I let go what I have created it would overgrow my tiny 5600 sq ft lot in a 5-10 years. So now I kinda have no choice but to keep loving it. It’s like anything else you get back what you give. It’s incredibly satisfying to see the progress of a garden makes year to year then every five years and ten. I kinda get off on hyper focus and commitment.

The garden forces me away from my Woodworking and machinery obsession a coupe times a year and for the better half of a year forcing a break in my type A hyper focused personality. I just kinda transfer fro one type A obsession to the next with the seasons. This way I don’t end up burnt out on either love.

Roundup I’d poison. Can’t wait till the day they ban the garbage.

No offense meant.

Darcy what is the color code for the tree you painted the Bourel planer you are working on. It has a slight lime bright green I really really like without being all festool or old school puke green.

[Martin Wasner]

Roundup is poison. Can't wait till the day they ban the garbage.

No offense meant.



Off topic tangent, coming in hot.

True, it is a poison. For the creation of an enzyme you don't use or make. I forget what it was originally made for, but it was human consumption

If you want to feed 7+ billion people, that's one of the things it takes.

[Patrick Walsh]

Oht ohw...


The earth is overpopulated. It’s a problem I think less people and more trees Is the answer.

Give this place back to nature is my attitude.


Off topic tangent, coming in hot.

True, it is a poison. For the creation of an enzyme you don't use or make. I forget what it was originally made for, but it was human consumption

If you want to feed 7+ billion people, that's one of the things it takes.

[Darcy Warner]

I can take a picture of the lid with the paint formula. I just had my paint lady match a part I took off that had clean original paint under it. Pretty close to almost all German green machines.

[Patrick Walsh]

Wow,

Thanks Darcy is appreciate that.

I really have no idea what color green German machines tend to be.

By the way, I had never taken the time to internet stalk you. I went googling last night and found your Facebook page. I had no idea you also restore machines. I kinda half figured when you suggested I leave my new T75 alone that you might be the type of guy that was completely against restroation.

Point is you do very very nice work.

Wish I had seen the two T75’s you had.

Keep me in mind when and if you come across anything special. Like anything ;)


I can take a picture of the lid with the paint formula. I just had my paint lady match a part I took off that had clean original paint under it. Pretty close to almost all German green machines.

[Martin Wasner]

Keep me in mind when and if you come across anything special. Like anything ;)

Oooooh, the little EC edge sander!

I want that thing

[Martin Wasner]

Oht ohw...


The earth is overpopulated. It’s a problem I think less people and more trees Is the answer.

Give this place back to nature is my attitude.


The first part I agree with.

The second part, is a conundrum of whether humans are part of nature or not. Most people's arrogance tells them they're better than anything else and don't like being clumped in with the rest of the animals.

Either way, sign me up for another Toba eruption.

[Patrick Walsh]

Had to google Toba eruption. Can’t beleive I have never herd of it.

I’m all for a genetic bottleneck resulting in 1000-10000 humans remaining.

I’d be just fine with none remaining. I’m not one of the humans that’s impressed with humans. Horrified is more like it.


The first part I agree with.

The second part, is a conundrum of whether humans are part of nature or not. Most people's arrogance tells them they're better than anything else and don't like being clumped in with the rest of the animals.

Either way, sign me up for another Toba eruption.

[Martin Wasner]

We've been almost wiped out many times. It'll likely happen again, if not completely.

[Darcy Warner]

Oooooh, the little EC edge sander!

I want that thing

Its sooooo darn cute, all 550 pounds of bench top sander.

[Darcy Warner]

Wow,

Thanks Darcy is appreciate that.

I really have no idea what color green German machines tend to be.

By the way, I had never taken the time to internet stalk you. I went googling last night and found your Facebook page. I had no idea you also restore machines. I kinda half figured when you suggested I leave my new T75 alone that you might be the type of guy that was completely against restroation.

Point is you do very very nice work.

Wish I had seen the two T75’s you had.

Keep me in mind when and if you come across anything special. Like anything ;)

Most everything is on my IG feed.

There is a fine line I try to toe between a complete rebuild and a through mechanical clean up.

Of course its completely up to the customer, they get whatever they are willing to pay for.

Thank you, I do my best.

[Warren Lake]

Had a friend who would get mad if someone said "he was behaving like an animal" Lots of animals behave better than humans. My female sheepdog sometimes had issues with some other female dogs, likely she thought they were prettier than her. Case it was an animal behaving like a human.

[Joe Calhoon]

We've been almost wiped out many times. It'll likely happen again, if not completely.

Hope to get a few more powder days before the big one!:)

[Joe Calhoon]

Most everything is on my IG feed.

There is a fine line I try to toe between a complete rebuild and a through mechanical clean up.

Of course its completely up to the customer, they get whatever they are willing to pay for.

Thank you, I do my best.

That is the smart way Darcy. I spent some time looking at rebuilt window machines at Engilfried in Germany. They clean, replace bearings and other parts as needed and update electronics. I asked him about repainting and he said it would push the price over what a new machine would cost and not be practical in a business sense.
That said, I do not regret the 2 machines I have gone totally through. When you add up the hours it would never be possible to sell and recover the cost. Just have to use them and enjoy.

[Brian Holcombe]

I recently went through your Martin shaper thread, Joe. Beautifully done!

Certainly, tons of hours in these machines to restore them, plus materials. Many thought-hours as well, just hunting down some odd thing or what not. Used to happen to me with cars all the time also, just seem to spend forever planning basic things like fuel lines or wiring details.

[Martin Wasner]

Hope to get a few more powder days before the big one!:)

If Yellowstone ever goes I'm only slightly less screwed than you. I think we're supposed to only get 4-6 of ash here.

[Martin Wasner]

I recently went through your Martin shaper thread, Joe. Beautifully done!

Certainly, tons of hours in these machines to restore them, plus materials. Many thought-hours as well, just hunting down some odd thing or what not. Used to happen to me with cars all the time also, just seem to spend forever planning basic things like fuel lines or wiring details.

If you're completely restoring a machine, you're doing it because you like working on machines and you want to be proud of it when you're done.

Brian, if you enjoy cars, and judging from your maka thread, you might be crazy enough to enjoy watching a series of videos on YouTube where two guys are taking a Mini and putting the engine and drive line from a awd Toyota Celica into it. Search for "Bad Obsession Motorsports" or "project Binky" Those guys are nuts

[Patrick Walsh]

Warren

ThT is also a very common held belief and my household and one That must come up at least monthly.

Imop animals are way ahead of us. We seem to be pretty good at screwing up every dam good thing. Animals not so much imop.

If the average employee politician could or gave a crap to out think me and or be one thought ahead of me like my dogs can. Animals also have a inate way of always knowing what’s up both physicaly and emotionally and well just in general on all fronts.

It’s pretty impressive animals do with ease what most of us can’t do in a lifetime. Are they limited in other ways I guess but I’d say they are far more advanced than humans on what counts.


Had a friend who would get mad if someone said "he was behaving like an animal" Lots of animals behave better than humans. My female sheepdog sometimes had issues with some other female dogs, likely she thought they were prettier than her. Case it was an animal behaving like a human.

[Patrick Walsh]

Yeah and I hope I can just get this machine to shine then make a few things to be proud of.

I’m not suggesting I’m ready to off myself, just saying we are not all that impressive in my eyes and I think the earth is much more beautiful without the mess we have made.

But I’m a hippy. Your from Colorado you know my type ;)


Hope to get a few more powder days before the big one!:)

[Patrick Walsh]

Joe,

I have inquired about a few machines on Machinio and Machine seeker and the such. I never ever hear back. How do you make contact with European sellers?

I think importing a shaper could be a good move for me. Really I should just pony up for the new T12 with tenon table and stick building stuff as apposed to screwing around with machines. It’s not really that much money lol. I’ll just drive my 08 Frontier with 109,000 on it for another ten years till it his 200000k...


That is the smart way Darcy. I spent some time looking at rebuilt window machines at Engilfried in Germany. They clean, replace bearings and other parts as needed and update electronics. I asked him about repainting and he said it would push the price over what a new machine would cost and not be practical in a business sense.
That said, I do not regret the 2 machines I have gone totally through. When you add up the hours it would never be possible to sell and recover the cost. Just have to use them and enjoy.

[Patrick Walsh]

THIS...


Can’t wait to make it like brand new. Fingers crossed I don’t break something then screw myself from ever being able to use it without finding a replacement part. I’m pretty scared to get that spring out and back in without killing myself or more importantly cracking a cast..


If you're completely restoring a machine, you're doing it because you like working on machines and you want to be proud of it when you're “
Brian, if you enjoy cars, and judging from your maka thread, you might be crazy enough to enjoy watching a series of videos on YouTube where two guys are taking a Mini and putting the engine and drive line from a awd Toyota Celica into it. Search for "Bad Obsession Motorsports" or "project Binky" Those guys are nuts

[Brian Holcombe]

If you're completely restoring a machine, you're doing it because you like working on machines and you want to be proud of it when you're done.

Brian, if you enjoy cars, and judging from your maka thread, you might be crazy enough to enjoy watching a series of videos on YouTube where two guys are taking a Mini and putting the engine and drive line from a awd Toyota Celica into it. Search for "Bad Obsession Motorsports" or "project Binky" Those guys are nuts


Hah, that seems like a weird thing to do, I’ll have to check it out. Thank you!

[Martin Wasner]

THIS...


Can’t wait to make it like brand new. Fingers crossed I don’t break something then screw myself from ever being able to use it without finding a replacement part. I’m pretty scared to get that spring out and back in without killing myself or more importantly cracking a cast..

Here's my take on it. Somebody put it together at some point, so you should be able to put it back together. You just might do it wrong sixty times....

I don't really sweat stuff breaking either. Unless it's from a dummy move, but even then, it was made once it can be made again. And likely made better than the original since you have hindsight on your side.

In no particular order, the four tradesman preventing the cabinetmaker apocalypse.

The machinist
The fabricator
The electrician
The electrical engineer.

Become friends with all of them and every problem has a solution.

[Joe Calhoon]

Joe,

I have inquired about a few machines on Machinio and Machine seeker and the such. I never ever hear back. How do you make contact with European sellers?

I think importing a shaper could be a good move for me. Really I should just pony up for the new T12 with tenon table and stick building stuff as apposed to screwing around with machines. It’s not really that much money lol. I’ll just drive my 08 Frontier with 109,000 on it for another ten years till it his 200000k...

Patrick,
It is a possibility but you have to be careful. I have imported one new machines and a few accessories directly and getting them here can be full of unexpected costs. I think the best way is to go look at the machines in person. Most of the sellers do not take email enquires from the US seriously. I always thought a few machines shipped in a small container would be the most economically way to buy Euro vintage. The voltage can be dealt with easily but 50hz might present problems on some machines.
here is one I have considered. They are usually 4 to 8000 euro depending on condition
https://files.hoechsmann.com/lexikon/pdf/original/oko_sf3sf.pdf?lang=en

[Patrick Walsh]

Joe,

Wow that thing is funky. Almost steam punkish, please don’t let tht comment make you think I’m into steam punk. Nothing against it but it would paint the wrong picture of me lol..

So I take it one side squaresmthe stock with the blade then copes. Then move to the other side to stick?

Pretty slick either way. Would you really use that in your shop for the work you do or is it just something you just gotta or wanna have because.


Patrick,
It is a possibility but you have to be careful. I have imported one new machines and a few accessories directly and getting them here can be full of unexpected costs. I think the best way is to go look at the machines in person. Most of the sellers do not take email enquires from the US seriously. I always thought a few machines shipped in a small container would be the most economically way to buy Euro vintage. The voltage can be dealt with easily but 50hz might present problems on some machines.
here is one I have considered. They are usually 4 to 8000 euro depending on condition
https://files.hoechsmann.com/lexikon/pdf/original/oko_sf3sf.pdf?lang=en

[Joe Calhoon]

Patrick,
No idea what steam punk is so don’t worry.
Its a small angular machine for window and door making. Tenoning shaft with saw, powered table and Festo style length fence. Profiling shaft with glass bead removal saw, large power feed and support arms for outside profiling frames.
Okoma was started by former Baurele employees and invented the first angle machines. Later put out of business when the patents ran out and Weinig and others started making that type machine.

This would not be an improvement over what I have but I think they are cool!

[Patrick Walsh]

I was pretty sure it was not a improvement over your current machinery.

Then again what you do is a while nother world from what I do so what do I know.

Whatever the case I’d sure like to play around with that machine if nothing else.


Patrick,
No idea what steam punk is so don’t worry.
Its a small angular machine for window and door making. Tenoning shaft with saw, powered table and Festo style length fence. Profiling shaft with glass bead removal saw, large power feed and support arms for outside profiling frames.
Okoma was started by former Baurele employees and invented the first angle machines. Later put out of business when the patents ran out and Weinig and others started making that type machine.

This would not be an improvement over what I have but I think they are cool!

[Patrick Walsh]

Got it home.

Holy crap the truck I rented was a beast and totally a trip to drive. The first ten minutes behind the wheel in city traffic I was definitely thinking to myself “how do I get myself into this @#$* all the time”. By the end of the day I was flying around in it like a race car lol.

398359

You ask why rent such a bit truck to move a wee saw. Dock height bed, I was picking up and delivering to two locations with loading docks and it made loading and unloading a breeze. The truck did cost me nearly $500 to rent for the day so I am now $5K even into this machine. Probably way more than it is worth in all reality. When up and running like a top the machine will be worth way more than $5 to me so that’s the angle I choose to look at it from.

I did not spend any time really messing with my new baby as I ended up helping my boss move the old Altendorf out of the shop and onto it’s new owners trailer. I did take notice that this week saw by comparison in its size to our new but only T73 is very very very heavy. Wondering how and why I poked around a bit. The first thing I noticed was that the cast iron table on the main saw is is the thickness of maybe four Felder and or Scmi machines.

I’m pretty excited. Now I just gotta find the time to get a cord on it and make a few test cuts before I go bat #$@* crazy tearing into pieces.

398360

398361

398362

[peter gagliardi]

You are going to really enjoy that machine.
$500.00 IS pretty steep for a one day rental on that truck, but it’s done now.
Around here, that truck would run $120-150.00 a day.
Glad to see it found it’s new home.

[Patrick Walsh]

As you mentioned peter,

Cost of living is probably much higher near me where the wild ones roam vrs you were people are still civilized.

Ok so not $500 but pretty close with all considered. $320 with the $60 of insurance then 30 cents a mile over the 50 miles they give you, I did like a 150 miles, then $75 in gas.

And yes I agree I am gonna cherish this saw I would think till I probably fall over using it. The last thing the seller said me was “keep in touch, that saw has made a ton of really really beautiful work” he was talking about work he made with it. I could tell it was hard for him to see it go. The previous owner built custom yacht interiors out of Rhode Island and was also attached the machine from what I’m told. I guess he asked when he sold it to the guy I purchased it from that if he ever sold it to re contact him and give him first option. Not sure what happened there but?

I couldn’t help but think well now it’s gonna make a life’s worth of beautiful stuff for me. I did feel bad though

I’m excited to say the least. But man o man it’s gonna be a while before I am actually using it in my shop. I have so much personal work related to my home to tend to. I have a covered front porch staircase and walkway that I pulled apart late fall and is just re framed at this point. It needs to be decked and a thermal bluestone walk need be installed along with a set of natural stone stairs. Like giant rock slab type stairs. I also need to trim the whole thing out. Mostly non lattice lattice and column wraps but it’s still a project. Then I have ten passage doors to make for a master bedroom addition I started about three years ago. Once those are made I can trip it out, drop in the hardwood floors and paint the walls and stain all the trim and doors. If that’s not enough I replaced all my windows this past year also and began replacing all my exterior trim with Axek. I have to finish two sides of trim come spring then paint my whole house. When that’s done I could use a kitchen. However when the above is done I’ll probably sell and get the hell out of doge if I can find a good job in the sticks.

Sadly and as I knew when I purchased the machine a number of weeks ago one of the small metal rails the slider runs on that I was told to look for wear on has come loose. Per the instruction manual there is a specific adhesive used to attaché them in such a case they come loose. Sadly I’m going to have to tend to this before I do anything with the machine as I suspect I could damage something further if used the way it is today.

My intent is take the whole thing apart. However when I suggested. Taking the sliding carriage off the cast rail it rides on and a million loose ball bearings falling out of the races i kinda got cold feet imagining loosing god knows how many tiny bearings. Then there is the consideration if I don’t loose any how the hell I ever get it all back together if indeed they are loose and floating.

Who knows, maybe to re glue the track I don’t need to screw with the races and or bearings but I kinda doubt it. If I do have to cut a million of those little bastards free I think the first thing I’m gonna have to do is build a box I can disassemble the sliding table in as to catch and capture any bearings that may try and run away on me.


You are going to really enjoy that machine.
$500.00 IS pretty steep for a one day rental on that truck, but it’s done now.
Around here, that truck would run $120-150.00 a day.
Glad to see it found it’s new home.

[Kory Cassel]

Not sure if it will cause a problem collecting dust in a saw, but I've always held balls in place with heavy grease for re-assembly on other projects. Good luck not loosing any when you take it apart though.:D

[Brian Holcombe]

Looks great, that saw looks pretty clean to me. Given your workload and how nice that machine looks, It would be very tempting to me to just restore parts as time and enthusiasm allows while using it for a bit to get to know the machine. That will lighten the load when you go to do a full restore.

I suppose you would just need a paint match so that restored parts don’t appear glaringly out of place.

Before using it I would definetly clean, oil and grease. When I recieved the Felder FD250 every stuck part and tight assembly was from a lack of cleaning and oiling. Once it was cleaned and greased it all worked as intended. The maka was just slightly better than a basket case so that really needed the full battery, even the paint was mangled by people duct taping it for reasons unknown, painting on it, scared and damaged parts, etc. That machine had gone through hell.

Your saw looks very well kept after.

[Patrick Walsh]

Brian,

Per others suggestions I will indeed first getbthe machine up and running. At this point that means put the appropriate cord and cord end on it and plug it in. The sliding table does need immediate attention though so I will at the very least need to investigate that and proceed based on what I find.

I do agree for the age of the was it is in very very good shape. On the other hand there was duct tape on the machine funny you should mention. So you know pictures can be deceiving.

The only problem with just putting the saw into service as you suggested and resorting one piece at a time is regarding location. Right now it is at work. A build I work in and my Bess rents space. My uncle also rents space and has a shop in this building going back a few decades, the saw is Ina corner of his shop. It is here I have the opportunity and access to engine lifts, fork trucks and sand blasters along with the space to spread out and ability to make a mess with regard to dust so forth and so on that I would not have in my personal shop at home.

Pretty much once it’s home it will be what it is the way it is for eternity, well at least my lifetime. I’m pretty ocd and a workaholic so once I get into something I normally go no holds barred till it’s done. Ok so my house is not a very good example. The problem with the house is all the projects related cost huge money. If it was just the time I’d long since be done. I guess they would not have to cost so much if I was ok with half #*$@ stuff. But being my exposure to the Uber high end custom home market I just can bring myself to do anything to my own home that is not at least as nice as what I do for work. The sad fact is the average home price that I do work for is somewhere between 2-10 million dollars most like million so my reality and theirs really do not align although I still think I deserve nice stuff as I work very very hard. At least as hard as those I do work for.

[Joe Calhoon]

Glad you got it home safely Patrick! I was younger and dumber when I bought mine, hauled it home from Denver in a 1/2 ton truck with the headlights pointed to the sky!

The balls are fairly large as I recall. Dime size or larger. Luckily my old 75 is just a couple miles down the backroad from me and have first dubs on buying it back should he decide to sell. I like the newer version with the ballbearings in the fence though. Curious how the newer style cross fence works though as mine had the protractor like cross fence with large angle markings.

[Patrick Walsh]

Joe,

I have moved a few machines in such a fashion. I’m oretty self reliant and when I want something I tend to figure out a way to get what I want regardless of how far a reach or idiotic it is.

I almost took your 2 ton pickup suggestion to heart. I actually mentioned it to the seller and he thought I was nuts. The money is spent now and I’m glad I made it easy on myself. I was able to back the truck up to a loading dock on the receiving end throw down a dock plate and roll the machine onto the truck. Same on the my end unloading. I think combined it took me maybe five minutes to load and aunload. It made me really dream of having my own fooor level shop on my property. Being my house sits on a 5600 soft lot that is clearly not gonna happen.

It’s gonna be a real hoot getting this machine into my shop. I actually kinda get of kick out of doing rediculous stuff most would never ever consider. It’s a good feeling when your all done and you can stand back and digest how rediculous what you just did was bit that you pulled it off AGAIN lol. You know kinda like you and your half ton story. Where ther is a will there is a way.

Are you taking about the bearings in the sliding table or rip fence?

on
Glad you got it home safely Patrick! I was younger and dumber when I bought mine, hauled it home from Denver in a 1/2 ton truck with the headlights pointed to the sky!

The balls are fairly large as I recall. Dime size or larger. Luckily my old 75 is just a couple miles down the backroad from me and have first dubs on buying it back should he decide to sell. I like the newer version with the ballbearings in the fence though. Curious how the newer style cross fence works though as mine had the protractor like cross fence with large angle markings.

[Patrick Walsh]

Found about a hour to get more acquainted with the saw tonight. Only spent about a hour but I put everything back together and threw a straight edge on it just to get a very rough idea of what I have. I also have it a good blow down with compressed air. Holly smokes there is saw dust that is much like cement caked onto arts of the outside. Not so much in the inside thank go or any of the working parts.

Without getting to into it all I can say is this saw is gonna need some serious attention if I’m ever gonna be happy with it. First off the paint just flakes off with compressed air. I keep a really tidy shop and there is no way I’d be able to deal with little flakes of green paint all over place. Second thing I noticed is the sliding table is sitting a solid 64-32nd if not more above the cast table. I’m not quite sure how this is adjusted on this machine but again this is not 10 thousandths as a more modern machine is setup. I’m not sure that 10 thousandths is accurate either but you get my point.

I can see a couple areas where I’m gonna have to make some modern improvements to the machine. For instance the spindle that supports the outrigger table is a just a rod that sits atop a bolt on the bottom and indexes into the bottom of the outrigger table. I’m thinking bearings on either end are in order. Also a 8’ Sheet will fit in the machine but not a chance with a air clamp. I’m 100” gonna have to fabricate up some kind of extension to support a air clamp at least on the leading edge. If I do that I might as well put one on both the leading and trailing edge.

So far that’s all I really see but I really did not get into it. I’m sure I’m gonna keep finding things that will drive me nuts if not tended to. For instance the fence kind rubs the cast tables a]when you move it. I’m sure I can just adjust this out but if not I’ll have to fix that. My guess is the fence extrusion will also probably have to be ground flat again if it is out of square in relation to the cast table, has any twist or is not perfectly flat.

Anyway my hands are dirty and I’m already tired and I did nothing but put the outrigger table on it and wipe the top with some laquer thinner and a razor blade.

398476

398477

The good news is I put a tape on the machine and I can easily fit it in my shop without any major amendments to my house. If I take it apart to restore it at work then transport it in pieces and reassemble in mu]y home shop moving it should be a piece of cake.

And oh boy everything is built so freaking beefy I think I’m in love. Well right now maybe not in love as it needs much attention. If I can work all the kind out though man o man I may sleep next to it a few nights like a little kid with a new toy.

[Patrick Walsh]

Joe,

As you suggested the bearings within the races are indeed about dime to marble sized. I was barely able to get a eye on them laying on the ground from bellow the machine but I think that is what I saw.

I’m gonna try and explain a noise that can be heard when sliding the table back and forth.

The noise makes one think something is loose within the sliding table and maybe trapped within the sliding table. It almost sounds like a rattling metal on metal noise. At first I thought this noise was one of the metal tracks the bearings and races travel on having come lose and in need of adhesive to hold it back down. At this point I no longer think that to be the case. I instead think I’m seeing a race that floats around between the top and bottom portion of the sliding table.

This loose piece seems trapped between the the upper portion of the sliding table or extrusion and the ribbed base that actually bolts to the machine base. The noise is kinda terrible and when combined with the muscle it takes to slide the table vrs a modern machine it makes me think something is not right.

Well it did make me think something was not right until I discovered the piece I thought was loose was actually a large race that housed the bearings. Now I’m not sure and half inclined to think this is just the way the machine was designed.

So the question is do the bearings sit in a large race maybe a foot or more long that travels around between the two extrusions with only a plate bolted on either end of the sliding table to keep the race and bearings from sliding out from between the table top and base and onto the floor. Or is this race indeed supposed to be secured to something and has worked itself free.

If that is just a bunch of jibberish and I lost you way back I understand. As soon as I find the time I’m gonna take the whole sliding table off and investigate a little at a time probabaly resulting in me taking the whole thing apart. I’m sure at this point it will be clear the culprit of the noise and what is going on.

Thank you,

[joe milana]

Patrick, Congrats on the Saw! Was that saw listed on E bay? I have one just like it, mine's Sn. 76260. Love the Felder fence! That's a nice upgrade. As far as the Sliding table goes, that doesn't sound good. Perhaps there is something foreign in there. Stranger things have happened... Yes, the bearings are captured in a linear race, more like ~3' long. You can see the edge of it from underneath. It's about 1/8" thick, and moves at 1/2 the speed of the carriage as you move it. I can help you adjust the slider, but it'll be easier if I grab some pictures. It's not real intuitive (as with many things German) but eventually makes sense. Bear with me.
I agree with your synopsis on the outrigger support post. Mine was a piece of conduit with aluminum duct tape to snug it up. I've since replaced it with a steel rod, and have been mulling ideas to incorporate bearings into it. I can't believe the saw has radial thrust bearings under the kipp levers, but then the outrigger post is sort of an afterthought. The Germans are kinda know for stuff like this though. I have my theories... ;-)
When you disassemble the sliding table portion, please document the process with pictures. I know it's a pain, but there is not much info out there on these. I read somewhere that the fixed races on the sliding table and base are reversible on some vintages, doubling their life. Wouldn't that be cool!

[Joe Calhoon]

Patrick,
It was almost 30 years ago when I had the sliding table off my T75. Cannot remember the details but it was not difficult.

My 75 had a simpler outrigger support than yours. Not near as sturdy as what’s on the T72 but sufficient for most tasks.

[Darcy Warner]

Patrick,
It was almost 30 years ago when I had the sliding table off my T75. Cannot remember the details but it was not difficult.

My 75 had a simpler outrigger support than yours. Not near as sturdy as what’s on the T72 but sufficient for most tasks.

I had that style and the older tube beam style.

They were simple and designed so you could move positions of the support arm quickly an easily. They worked great and never saw the need for anything different

[Patrick Walsh]

Guys,

Yes the outrigger support move around and comes on and off really really easy. I will be interested to see after I have machine all setup and calibrated how easily it will go back to cutting square should I move anything.

I’m mostly wondering how exactly the the two pieces that sandwich the bearings and races come apart. Tbh I have not even really had time to look. My guess is it’s no bid deal as everything on the machine is very very simple imop and at least from first glance seems pretty self explanatory. I’m gonna probably regret having said that at some point lol but I really does seem very uncomplicated from built when things where much more simple, and robust ;) here hee I love robust.

[Patrick Walsh]

Taking pictures is pita.

In this case though I think imperative so I remeber how to put the thing back together. Once I start pulling things apart I’ll start sharing photos.

I gotta get a cord on the machine and plug it in and make a few cuts. After that if everything checks out I’ll probably dive into the sliding table and make that right. Once I have the machine dialed in to my standard and working properly I’ll start pulling everything apart restoring it. I’ll still do,it piece by piece though.

I’ll start with sliding table. Tear it down make it work right then tear it down strip, fill prime, paint put back together. I’ll then probably take all the pieces than can be unbolted and removed with ease for the saw and do the same as above. Once that’s done I’ll take the cast iron tables off completely clean them up and repaint. The remove the motor trunion and machine innards and Stewart tacking all that once piece at a time.

Lots and lots of work.


Patrick, Congrats on the Saw! Was that saw listed on E bay? I have one just like it, mine's Sn. 76260. Love the Felder fence! That's a nice upgrade. As far as the Sliding table goes, that doesn't sound good. Perhaps there is something foreign in there. Stranger things have happened... Yes, the bearings are captured in a linear race, more like ~3' long. You can see the edge of it from underneath. It's about 1/8" thick, and moves at 1/2 the speed of the carriage as you move it. I can help you adjust the slider, but it'll be easier if I grab some pictures. It's not real intuitive (as with many things German) but eventually makes sense. Bear with me.
I agree with your synopsis on the outrigger support post. Mine was a piece of conduit with aluminum duct tape to snug it up. I've since replaced it with a steel rod, and have been mulling ideas to incorporate bearings into it. I can't believe the saw has radial thrust bearings under the kipp levers, but then the outrigger post is sort of an afterthought. The Germans are kinda know for stuff like this though. I have my theories... ;-)
When you disassemble the sliding table portion, please document the process with pictures. I know it's a pain, but there is not much info out there on these. I read somewhere that the fixed races on the sliding table and base are reversible on some vintages, doubling their life. Wouldn't that be cool!

[Brian Holcombe]

Are you going to use the contemporary Martin blue or another color?

[Patrick Walsh]

No Martin Blue as much as I like it I do not like it on the vintage machines.

Im not thrilled about the old green colors either but to be honest I’m a bit of a purist for things like this. I think I’m gonna try and take it right back to its original everything.

I’m tempted to go another color but I think I may regret it. Black is a option for me as I like black but you know as said I’m a purist and I may regret it and I’m not doing it twice. The green I know I can live with.

I know many will not agree but. Plus I figure if I ever decide I just have to have a brand new Martin slider it will make selling the machine a bit more easy if I have brought it back to new and not painted with a red racing stripe.


Are you going to use the contemporary Martin blue or another color?

[Brian Holcombe]

I like the updated color but original green, newly done, will look great. Just like antique and vintage cars, original colors or an update both look great when all is done well.

[Patrick Walsh]

With cars I’m less of a hot rod guy and more like all the way back to original everything. Not that I’m a car guy. I do have auncle with a small museum of early teens Piece arrows. Those cars are restored back to original everything minus modernizing certain aspect of say the drivetrain I believe. Much like my intention to add bearings to the arm that support the outrigger table.

Anyway I really like the approach of bringing something that was perfect when it was made back to perfect again. Imop few things were made perfect and this Martin may just be one of them. I’ll let you know in like two years when I. Done and have had a chance to actually use the saw enough to develop a relationship with it.

If I’m gonna pimp anything it’s gonna be M3 or a 911.....

I did drive by the most fenominal color red Lamborghini at a dealership local to me the other day and do a double take thinking out loud “man I really would never want to be the type of person that actually purchased or wanted to drive that car, but dam is it freaking beautiful” I think I actually said that out loud to myself. Or maybe not but I thought it.

Maybe a Matt black vinyl wrap lol or Matt white would probably be more the rage lol. Hmm I do like white like I really really like white. Not for this though, babies diaper butt green it is.

[Warren Lake]

if you decide to go with the 911 here are a few ideas :)



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KWhN5Kywgxg

[Patrick Walsh]

This would be the dream for me.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HocgTnX0Hok

But I’d be torn to just leave it all original.

Sadly the ship has sailed on me ever owning one of these. Last I knew one in decent condition with 150k on it was going for 30K that may have been ten years ago now.

That 911 is also very very nice. Both cars much like a the old t75 I just purchased made to use and to last in way things just are no longer made. I had a 95 m3 when I was like 20, I love that car lived for it actually, busted my rump for it. It’s still in my view ten time the car of a new m3 but still was afar cry for a e30.


if you decide to go with the 911 here are a few ideas :)



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KWhN5Kywgxg

[Brian Holcombe]

Your not missing anything, this stuff is so much more fun than cars.

[peter gagliardi]

Due to the design, the Martin is always going to need a bit more force to move than say, your old Altendorf and others. A captive ball system inherently has more drag on it than a roller style setup.
Even my new Martin takes some effort to move.
Once cleaned and oiled though, it should be minimal.
The Martin is built heavy, and just feels like it has the heft that is really there.
Without hearing the noise, no way to diagnose. However, some noise - slight occasional dragging, and/or clacking is normal , and will minimize with clean and lube as well. If the races get packed, you can actually get a stuck ball or two, and then the carriage is just dragging the fixed ball along, causing wear.

[Patrick Walsh]

Thanks Peter,

I’ll try to take a short video with audio and post it.


Due to the design, the Martin is always going to need a bit more force to move than say, your old Altendorf and others. A captive ball system inherently has more drag on it than a roller style setup.
Even my new Martin takes some effort to move.
Once cleaned and oiled though, it should be minimal.
The Martin is built heavy, and just feels like it has the heft that is really there.
Without hearing the noise, no way to diagnose. However, some noise - slight occasional dragging, and/or clacking is normal , and will minimize with clean and lube as well. If the races get packed, you can actually get a stuck ball or two, and then the carriage is just dragging the fixed ball along, causing wear.

[Patrick Walsh]

Well not my saw but I do get to use it everyday.

I set this up yesterday. It had to fit in a freight elevator to get to our fourth floor shop. Pretty scary with the elevator having a 4K lb weight limit. It’s tested with way more weight than that but still it was scary.

I had to take the sliding table and carrage off the machine to fit it in the elevator. Even then it had only 1” to spare to get through the door.

Getting the machine back together and Calibrated to cut perfect was a good primer for the work I’ll have to do at some point on my t75. For all the reading I have done on setting the sliding table to the cast table I was surprised how easy it was. I mean it took me like 2-3 hours but I imagined it might take me days the way people talk about it online.

Pretty sweet saw. Who knows maybe I can buy it someday. Sure does look good with my jointer in the background.

398757

[Martin Wasner]

Your not missing anything, this stuff is so much more fun than cars.

I've never lost it in a tablesaw and gone backwards off the track though...

[Brian Holcombe]

I've never lost it in a tablesaw and gone backwards off the track though...

Hah!

extra words.

[Patrick Walsh]

Ok this doesn’t really count as doing something but...

I had to work today, like eleven miserable hours. Ok not miserable but kinda and only on account of I’m getting a cold.

Anyway, at 7pm as I was leaving I couldn’t help but go check on my new baby. Having just setup the T-73 for my boss and being completely floored by how smooth it was I just had to go slide my antique back and forth and obsess over the nois it makes. Honestly it’s driving me nuts to not just tear the table off and do a marathon session so I can at least know what I’m gonna or not gonna have to do about it.

In sliding the table back and forth I noticed that the outrigger arm was kinda sloppy within itself. You know how it’s a male female type thing. I had noticed some slop prior and also noticed some plastic gib screws near where the make extrusion exits the female extrusion. Anyway instead of just trying to adjust them I decided to take the whole thing apart. Much like the sliding table it has been kinda killing me to get a look inside at the bearings and to see what kind of wear I a, gonna be dealing with.

Anyway a few pictures bellow. I think I’ll start with this piece, tend to whatever needs tending, fully remove and paint needs prime, polish any metal, replace all the screws and I think have some new plastic gib screws made up.

398847

398848

[Patrick Walsh]

for whatever reason I’m trying to delete a post and it won’t let me but is insisting I have at least x amount of characters.

So I’m explaining my problems just to have some text to replace text I dont want posted lol..

[Brian Holcombe]

On things like pins, if they're not scored and are without burrs then you can very lightly touch them up with scotchbright, remove the grease that is existing and regrease. They'll be completely like new.

If there are burrs then remove them. Don't hone or buff anything, it'll open the clearances too far.

[Patrick Walsh]

Good points and Brian, and thank you for taking the time to point such out.

When I say I’m gonna buff every turd “sorry couldn’t help it” I am speaking of mostly cosmetic non functioning pieces such as the knob on the rip fence or little knurled knobs that tighten the fence or the heads of nuts and bolts.

For instance in the case of what I have apart right now I’ll just clean up the inside with some compressed air taking care not to blow crap into the bearings. I’ll then take everything all the way apart, remove all paint, replace the bearings and the plastic gib screws then put it back together and see how it functions. In the case of this piece I’ll largely leave the inside of the female part alone. One plate has indexing pins and yes those along with the inside of the female pice will just see some degreaser and a maroon scotch brite pad.

Sadly I have to work again today. I have a three week vacation coming up starting next Monday. I should be able to make some headway on the project in that time. Should is the operative word as I have so many other projects going on.



On things like pins, if they're not scored and are without burrs then you can very lightly touch them up with scotchbright, remove the grease that is existing and regrease. They'll be completely like new.

If there are burrs then remove them. Don't hone or buff anything, it'll open the clearances too far.

[Martin Wasner]

I have a three week vacation coming up starting next Monday. I should be able to make some headway on the project in that time. Should is the operative word as I have so many other projects going on.

Should is an easy word to defeat in this scenario. If you want it, make it happen.

If you plug away on that thing for 60 hours a week for the next three weeks you should be damn near back to assembled in 180 hours assuming you aren't waiting for parts. Even then, three weeks is an eternity.

[Darcy Warner]

Should is an easy word to defeat in this scenario. If you want it, make it happen.

If you plug away on that thing for 60 hours a week for the next three weeks you should be damn near back to assembled in 180 hours assuming you aren't waiting for parts. Even then, three weeks is an eternity.

About right. I would say a month or more, especially trying to source parts.

[Joe Calhoon]

I would agree, I had a month plus on the T23 and then quit tracking my time... my mechanic skills are not the greatest so a good wrench hand would be quicker.
the painting and reassembly took a lot of the time.

I had a week into just redoing the Festo feeder recently. All the time I keep thinking about Engelfried’s comment about repainting not being a economic possibility..

Darcy’s comment about spot touch up of the original paint is very common sense and is the route I plan for a couple of my machines. All depends on how you want to spend your time.

[Patrick Walsh]

I'll get back to the t-75 conversation later.

While I have some Sunday morning attention I'm wondering if I might get some help from other Martin slider users regarding the t -73 I just setup at work.

The electronic blade bevel just stopped working late yesterday.

Rise and fall works fine. Tilt or bevel though is completely dead.

It did not go all st once, well pretty much but it didn't work suddenly and I was able to get it back to 0% so tried to bevel it again snd it got stuck at like 21.7% I was then able to bring it from 0% to 21.7% a couple times before it just quite at a convirnent 21.7%

Totally sucks as I'm fitting doirs and cutting back panels fir a unit that has to be in the first booth tomorrow.

No big deal ts sled and track Saw but I need to fix this asap!

It makes a clicking noise when I press either button but does zero.

Help!

[Martin Wasner]

Help!

Inadequate lubrication causing friction and tripping an overload?

My planer does that once in a while. Grease it up, and it's back in action.

[Darcy Warner]

I would say just crank the handle, but Martin can't be bothered to put both on a machine anymore.

Check overloads.

I hate all electronic controlled saws and such. Not much to go wrong cranking a handwheel.

[Patrick Walsh]

Well I did as you suggested. The saw “was stuck”at 21.7% now I can get it to go back and forth between 0 and 221.84 or something like that.

So who knows I supspect something has got to be hanging up the worm gear that’s driven by a small motor. I have been to busy working and not absolutely in need of the saw to get under it with a good light and just figure it out. I suspect something needs more lube or something fell in the way of something like a strut or the trunion or a limit screw or something like that is going on?

More tomorrow as this last project is offf to the spray booth and the next project is a couple days out while we get RO’s.

Thanks for the help though as getting the saw back to zero was a huge help today.


Inadequate lubrication causing friction and tripping an overload?

My planer does that once in a while. Grease it up, and it's back in action.

[Patrick Walsh]

I couldn’t Help but think Darcy man I love this saw but man if my T-75 turns out being anywhere as nice I’m gonna be soooooo freaking happy it’s all manual. Well I’m gonna put Brian lambs digital crosscut stops on it and maybe something on the rip fence if I can figure it out but nothing that world compromise the ability to yuse the saw manually



I would say just crank the handle, but Martin can't be bothered to put both on a machine anymore.
.


Check overloads.

I hate all electronic controlled saws and such. Not much to go wrong cranking a handwheel.

[Patrick Walsh]

So I finished up my work day a bit more early than I thought I would today. Well I started stupid early so maybe not. Point is I found some time to get started on the t-75.

I decided to tackle the arm the cross cut table is supported by. As stated above and yesterday it had tons of slop in it. I had noticed a couple of plastic gib screws that index the male portion from either side and figured they should just be able to be tightened a bit to get rid of the left to right slop. I t to take th whole thing apart and make sure it was not something else coursing the problem.

I’m glad I did as I found minor metal to metal contact within the arm.

The first thing I found when taking the arm part was the bolt used to adjust the height of the table off the arm and I relationship to the sliding table was bent.

398955

Sadly to fix this I suspect I’m gonna have to ruin the threads to get the bolt out then re tap with a larger thread. I’m kinda bummed and if someone sees another solution please chime in. I could upset he bolt as is but it does not offer the full range of adjustability. For all I know it’s fine right where it is. On the other hand I want to address all isssue when doing this work as I don’t what a machine after all my efforts that requires the workarounds so often associated with old machinery that has been abused.

[Patrick Walsh]

Upon taking the the plate or sheet steel plate off one side I was able to see how this thing functioned inside. I’m not sure what I expected. I suppose I expected bearings form all four sides in true Martin fashion. I was a bit disappointed to find these plastic Delrin type washers on screws. I was more disappointed to see that at some point someone threaded a NU,net of these screws into their holes at a angle. This created a isssue as the head of the screw in some instanced was projecting beyond the delrin washers. I suppose I can retap these holes also if need be. The solution today was a good soak in kerosene a wire brush and then I sanded the heads of the screw with a piece of sticky back sand paper stuck to my mdf bench till the heads dropped bellow the delrin washer. As I type this I’m already thinking I’m gonna have to re tap these holes and replace the screws as I can see this becoming a problem again as the delrin washers wear.

398956

Here’s all the parts roughly cleaned. This is not my finished product but rather just getting the drift and grime off. Screws and nuts and the suck will all be cleaned Ona buffing and or polishing machine before final assembly and or just replaced and new.

398957

[Patrick Walsh]

The arm has a rubber roller wheel on one end and on one side of the interior extrusion with a small bearing on the opposing side. That’s one side of the extrusion like like left to right top and bottom.

The other side has a small bearing on the top and two large bearings it rolls on that are attached to the exterior or female extrusion. The good news was all bearings seemed in great condition. I’ll price them and decide then if I’m going to replace them.

The other good news is that even though I wa gettting metal to metal contact on the sides where the delrin washers should be riding smoothly against the two sides of the female or exterior extrusion the wear means minimal to nothing. I cleaned the interior cavity up with kerosene and left it at that.

398958

398959

[Patrick Walsh]

Here’s all the parts cleaned up, remeber just cleaned not restored.

Maybe good enough for some but not me.


398960

[peter gagliardi]

Those bearings are probably only gonna run $10-15.00 a piece. They are low speed average tolerance units. My T17 needed new bearings for the slider, and I think it was less than $50.00 for all of them.

[Patrick Walsh]

In light of my last comment the above cleaned up parts resulted ain a fully and perfectly function outrigger arm afte put back together.

I decided to put it back together not only to see if all the issues had been addressed and see if the travel was any more smooth but also because I have no idea when I will next have time to work on the project and did not want to forget how to put the thing back together.

The other thing I noticed and made me feels silly was just how rough Martins casting and or pieces were. As I sanded off the flaking finish what was revailed was many many machine, tool and or casting marks. All this will go away after I prime bondo and re prime.

Regardless I felt silly to care so much as to go to this extent when even Martin did not.

398961

398962

398963

398964

That’s it for now. Next I’ll probably tackle the outrigger table itself followed by any parts that comprise the outrigger table. That should be another chunck or found time. The above work took me three hours.

[Patrick Walsh]

When you say the bearings for you t-17 are you talking simular one as to in the tables of the t75 in the linier races?


Those bearings are probably only gonna run $10-15.00 a piece. They are low speed average tolerance units. My T17 needed new bearings for the slider, and I think it was less than $50.00 for all of them.

[peter gagliardi]

No, The T75 uses balls only, captured in steel races- they should be waaaaaay less $$. The T17 uses bearings similar in size to that double bearing assembly supporting the male portion of the arm. If I remember correctly, there were 8 of them- 2 on each end, up and down on an eccentric stud, that captured the inverted, and normal V’s on the arms- both sets were set at 90 degrees to each othe, and 45 degrees from vertical.

[Patrick Walsh]

Thank you Peter.

How’s things going. We everything working out for you about there in heaven. Last you mentioned being very busy.

Oh, also,as for the bearing is the t-75msliding table. I assume they are just loose balls in races. If so I would assume the size of these balls is integral to the race and the wear marks in the slider rails itself. I would also think if you got the size of these balls wrong they could be either to loose or tomtight within the races resulting in a few issues. The first issue I though was if to loose I would have slop. If to tight a hard time sliding. Also if any bigger than what is there today or I gues to small I could have a hard time aligning or setting the height of the sliding extrusion relative to the cast iron table of the machine.

I’m most concerned with relationship to the cast iron table as I don’t see how one adjust the sliding table in relationship to the cast table. I have not investigated very far to date but with a just a quick few glances it sure looks like the sliding table might lack much if any ajustment relative to the cast table.




No, The T75 uses balls only, captured in steel races- they should be waaaaaay less $$. The T17 uses bearings similar in size to that double bearing assembly supporting the male portion of the arm. If I remember correctly, there were 8 of them- 2 on each end, up and down on an eccentric stud, that captured the inverted, and normal V’s on the arms- both sets were set at 90 degrees to each othe, and 45 degrees from vertical.

[peter gagliardi]

Things are good here, plenty busy, though this is the first weekend in months I did not work at the shop. Wife and 2 kids out of town, and I had my 2 oldest boys, so we did a couple other things that they enjoyed.
I turned down quoting a $75-85k cabinet and built in job last week- no manpower.
I really didn’t feel as bad as I thought I would......

[Darcy Warner]

It moves up and down. Look at the sharp edge it sits on, look at that bracket. The adjustment is there. It sounds as if it is already set perfect as I believe that was about factory specs.

[Patrick Walsh]

Darcy,

Took me a minute to figure out what you were making reference to.

You are talking about the cast table the sliding table sits on that bolts to the table.

From what I have found there are the two upper brackets that girth the underside of the sliding table or cast extrusion. Beyond that on the lower end I find a bracket at either side of the table with I think two smaller bolts in each. I dint know I guess the extrusion can be moved around within all these points?

Right now the table is not setup very good. It sits proud of the cast table my way more than it should at least 1/16th. Add to that is you defense one end of the sliding table to the cast table sliding table at the same edge of the cast table as the sliding table moves by it the sliding table goes from being 1/16th above to being nearly flush on the other end of the cast table.

I’m sure I’ll figure it out but any imsot3 prior I’m sure will help along the process. The fact is the whole thing is coming off and being completely taken apart to address the bearings. I’m not excited to reset it up. However if it goes anything as easy as the t-73 I just setup I’m not even slightly worried.


It moves up and down. Look at the sharp edge it sits on, look at that bracket. The adjustment is there. It sounds as if it is already set perfect as I believe that was about factory specs.

[Darcy Warner]

That entire beam comes off by removing two bolts that clamp it to the holders on the main casting. I believe those brackets have a big nut you loosen and you can move those two brackets up and down. Not sure if I have a manual or not still.

The beam is freaking heavy. All two guys can lift in place.

[Patrick Walsh]

Darcy,

I’m familur with the two upper brackets with large bolt. I have also noticed the lower brackets with two much smaller bolts each.

I was thinking the sliding table would be very very heavy. I recently took the table and carnage off the t-73. It was heavy but not crazy heavy.


That entire beam comes off by removing two bolts that clamp it to the holders on the main casting. I believe those brackets have a big nut you loosen and you can move those two brackets up and down. Not sure if I have a manual or not still.

The beam is freaking heavy. All two guys can lift in place.

[Darcy Warner]

Darcy,

I’m familur with the two upper brackets with large bolt. I have also noticed the lower brackets with two much smaller bolts each.

I was thinking the sliding table would be very very heavy. I recently took the table and carnage off the t-73. It was heavy but not crazy heavy.

I would have to see how yours look when you slide the beam forward and back. The two big nuts loosen the bracket to crank beam in an out for dado work.

That should be driven by a chain and a handle at the rear of the machine.

The other two bolts clamp the beam in place, also how you loosen it to slide whole assembly forwards and back.