Need good tools for a woodworking career [Archive] - Sawmill Creek Woodworking Community

Brian Sommers

11-04-2018, 6:13 PM

Richard Coers

11-04-2018, 10:01 PM

Tools don't make the craftsman but they do help. Make your own router table, buy Italian band saw, joiner, and planer. Buy a vintage drill press, way better than anything on the market today. Running a business is at least half marketing, maybe more. Do a search on Etsy and get a hint of today's market. Over 2,000 items listed when you do a search for night stand.

Darcy Warner

11-04-2018, 10:05 PM

Meh, Italian stuff isnt all that and a bag of chips.

Only ones that have impressed me are the old R9s and T160s.

Dan Friedrichs

11-04-2018, 10:13 PM

I want to build small items that would sell well. I’m thinking side tables, hall/wall tables, etc.

I think you need a business plan before you need equipment.

I can buy a side table at IKEA for $39. What can you build one for?

Ray Newman

11-04-2018, 10:38 PM

Dan Friedrichs post # 6 is worth serious consideration.

Andrew Hughes

11-04-2018, 11:09 PM

Out here near me a new family can buy a table with four chairs 499.00.
The day of the furniture craftsman is over now is the time of the artist craftsman.
Be ready to stay hungry

Peter Kuhlman

11-04-2018, 11:21 PM

Brian - you need to be able to manufacture in a competitive price range to others in your area. Since you are in Amish country it would be really helpful if you could determine what they get paid from the furniture stores they sell through. Here in northern Michigan we have purchased a lot of new furniture in the last couple months for our new house and it was almost all Amish made hardwood stuff. Yes I could have made much of it but not quickly and I can’t compete with their raw material prices. For example I priced my cost of lumber for a nice hutch and it was only $150 less than finished product from the Amish. I could not make a penny competing with them.

Darcy Warner

11-05-2018, 12:01 AM

I live in amish country, I have never tried to compete with them.

eugene thomas

11-05-2018, 3:38 AM

If your going to start woodworking business from ground up base it around cnc. That is the future anyway. If you want more spicific info tool budget helps.

Pete Staehling

11-05-2018, 6:21 AM

Out here near me a new family can buy a table with four chairs 499.00.
The day of the furniture craftsman is over now is the time of the artist craftsman.
Be ready to stay hungry
Yes so true and even in the artist craftsman area you need to find a niche. I do not presume to say what is best in the OP's case, but in many of the possible niches finding that niche first with minimal tools may be best.

I know that I paid for my tools with my sales as unexpected demand grew. Things kind of snow balled and a hobby tried to become a full time business. Since I am retired and want to spend most of my time playing with my grand children, I seem to have to actually work at keeping it from becoming a full time business and taking over my life.

It is a funny thing how that can go. It is hard to say when or where lightning will strike let alone making it strike when and where you want it to. Good luck finding your niche.

William Hodge

11-05-2018, 6:30 AM

I think you need a business plan before you need equipment.

I can buy a side table at IKEA for $39. What can you build one for?

I have seen well equipped shops going up for auction.

Building stuff isn't hard. You need to be able to sell it.

During the 1991 recession, I realized I would be perfectly happy making toothpicks if it brought some money in. That was more exciting than beautiful furniture. I took a class in writing a business plan at a community college. That, an a visit to a (Federaly funded) small business development center, and I had sustainable business.

Only get the machines that make money.

Richard Wolf

11-05-2018, 7:35 AM

I have to agree with most people here, making a living in woodworking is extremely difficult. You need a niche and a target audience. There are some of us on this forum that have been successful making a living in woodworking but probably not many. I have family members that don't understand why I can't build something cheaper than Ikea, really?

I think one key to being successful is this, you need one of the following; A skill that most people don't have, like carving or multi material use, like wood and resin or wood and metal, or in my case, ability to build stair and railing systems. The second option is to have equipment that most people don't have or can't afford, like a cnc machine or 3d printer.

But even this mentality doesn't always work because people find a work around. Like craving is a lost art so now we have cnc machines that crave faster than any body can and probably better.

Besides stairs, I have always loved making chairs, Windsor and Shaker style. Well about 10 years ago or so there was a big push in Windsor chair building, mostly thanks to Mike Dunbar and the Windsor Institute. Lot of people took his classes and loved working in wood and his chairs sold for hundreds of dollars, so they ventured into the field of building chairs. Lots of website pop up selling hand made chairs for $400 to $600 dollars. When you figure at best you could build two a week, it is still a modest income. Most of those websites are now gone, not many people want to spend that kind of money on a chair.

Good luck with your choose.

Brian Holcombe

11-05-2018, 9:00 AM

I live in amish country, I have never tried to compete with them.

This is my opinion as well, aiming for the lowest price is very much a losing battle.

I have a close friend who spent the entirety of one evening working to convince me to knock out cheap things, fast. The more I refused this approach the more argument came my way. This is how many think a business should be run and Every industry already has that, plenty of it. A small one man shop with manual machines is not a high volume business and does not have a competitive advantage in that arena.

Where a small shop can compete is in flexibility, between furniture work I take on jobs that the shops in my area don’t know how to deal with. I took on a kitchen job which the counter needed to stay in place, no other cabinet shop wanted anything to do with. I provided a competitive price and worked out an approach to make it something I could manage by building sub assemblies in the shop.

Aaron Conway

11-05-2018, 9:29 AM

I think you need a business plan before you need equipment.

Spot on. Do lots of research and planning before buying one piece of equipment.

Patrick Kane

11-05-2018, 9:43 AM

I wont rain on your parade like some others, but i will agree that you need to figure out what will sell and tool up for that product versus buying tools and hoping to make what sells. The list of tools you mentioned is in line with what would be recommended to a starting hobbyist who intends to make some cabinets, furniture, boxes, etc. If i went full time, i could confidently make 45-55k in a year doing what i do. And i would do it without a router table, without a bandsaw, and without a drill press. I dont really care to make that income without benefits, and so i do 1/3rd that at a leisurely pace in my free time. Points being; one, you actually can make a living doing this if you are skilled and a hustler. Two, buy the tools that make you money. Honestly, if i were to do it all over again, i probably wouldnt buy a 10" cabinet saw. I would buy something 12"+ with 5-7.5hp motor. Dont get caught up in the "i need XYZ, because every woodshop has one" mentality. Anyways, plenty of one man shops out there making custom stuff, and im sure they arent starving. Also an influx of one man shops out there that quickly found out they wont make it and are now trying to parlay in podcasting, youtube, teaching to make ends meet.

I would second the recommendation to strongly consider the world of digital making. One, multimedia has a bigger audience from a content perspective(if you need to go that route as i mentioned above), and two, I think that is one area that isnt fully tapped into from what i can see. I dont own a CNC, but i know of several guys running laser cutters and CNC's out of their garages that generate decent income.

Chris Fournier

11-05-2018, 9:56 AM

Woodworking is a good way to make a hard living but a hard way to make a good living...

That being said I did it for years and enjoyed it. And good equipment does make it more enjoyable. Used equipment is a great way to punch above your weight. An offer like Richard's may be your ticket!

Patrick Varley

11-05-2018, 10:11 AM

I agree with the others who said CNC. I'm just a hobbyist, but if I was going to try and make it into a living I'd buy a CNC router and laser cutter, then focus on smaller stuff that can be sold online and at local shows. Understanding what will sell in that arena takes its own skill, but is attainable as a single-man shop. I'd fill things out by taking custom CNC jobs from the surrounding "maker" community. At least near me there is a niche for this, and someone that knows how to advertise and hustle could do well. Id only expand into other custom furniture/cabinet work if I got that part of the business going.

Erik Loza

11-05-2018, 12:39 PM

The one-man-shop customers of mine who were really successful in WW’ing all did what I would characterize as fine woodworking. In other words, they had created a niche. One-of-a-kind commission pieces. I think of it like photography. Everyone with a cell phone is a photographer now. The specialists survive. Not sure if this answers your question but hope it helps. Best of luck in your search.

Erik

Lisa Starr

11-05-2018, 1:17 PM

You are looking to find space in a very crowded market. I own and operate a jobbing machine shop, which in many ways is a very similar beast. There are guys in their garage with a CNC lathe or something that will always undercut you on price. If that isn't enough, there are all the off shore manufacturers actively courting your customers. Still, after 50+ years, we are still successful. One of the most important things you can do when opening a business is to offer something your competitors don't. In our case, it is a fair (not lowest) price, 100% to drawing and on time, every time. Figure out what you can offer your potential customers that will make you unique and then plan your investments accordingly. Any machine MUST earn its keep. The nicest, fanciest machine is useless if it doesn't provide a reasonable return on investment. Good luck.

Pete Taran

11-05-2018, 2:11 PM

I agree with folks who said the CNC route. I have one, and use it often. I am friends with Steve Knight who used to make Krenov style custom planes using his CNC. After a few years he realized he was more successful cutting signs and other stuff for customers as opposed to making anything. He stopped making planes years ago and now just runs his CNC cutting parts for others. By default, the Amish will never operate in that space. Instead of trying to compete with them in an area where they will always do it better and have that old world appeal and charm you don't (I assume you aren't Amish), do something that will not allow them to compete with you.

Shopbot, IMHO (sorry Gary) is the way to go. You can buy a turnkey set up for less than $20,000 and be able to cut parts in a 4' x 8' x 8" envelope. You will of course need to teach yourself how to run the software and design parts (no small undertaking), but if I were to go back to working with my hands, this is where I would focus my time. If you are not good with computer skills, it's probably not for you.

A different perspective. Hope it helps.

Pete

Yonak Hawkins

11-05-2018, 2:18 PM

Brian, I couldn't operate without any of those tools. I would definitely look for used equipment.

Jim Becker

11-05-2018, 3:50 PM

I have to agree with the sentiment that breaking in is difficult and one must have a niche/specialty where you can shine and differentiate yourself to do so successfully...i'm literally living that this year myself. The tools are honestly just tools that help you do whatever you decide you want to do and want to market yourself as.

It's hard to tell you what your budget should be to present to your "investor" because there's no one good answer to what you "need" without you being able to clearly define what you want to do and what that will require. I do agree that pre-owned tools offer a lot of value since many folks buy things and either use them infrequently before unloading them or use them until they upgrade to the latest and greatest or bigger because their needs changed. But again, there's no way to advise you and give "a number".

Darcy Warner

11-05-2018, 4:13 PM

Everyone has a CNc. Be different, do different.

Woodworking makes up about 50% of my work load, mostly because I am too busy with other parts of the industry. I have never tried to be competitive.

Simon MacGowen

11-05-2018, 6:03 PM

To succeed in doing woodworking for a living, you already are half way there, because you seem to have a rich dad. A few woodworkers I know are surviving because they have the support of their spouses or families or both. Many FWW contributing editors supplement their furniture business with writing and teaching.

Can you do all of those in addition to producing whatever you have in mind?

If your woodworking skills are stronger than any other career skills you may have, you should give woodworking a try (assuming your woodworking passion is not short-lived). If that is not the case, keep your day time job and explore woodworking as a side job or moonlighting, or stay hungry as someone has suggested. Woodworking is sexy every bit of it...if you don't need to depend on it to maintain your lifestyle.

Simon

John Gregory

11-05-2018, 6:17 PM

If you experience a great meal at a restaurant, Do you say, "The cook must have an awesome stove!" Look at all of the historic furniture pieces build before electricity. The skill is in the person.

Dan Friedrichs

11-05-2018, 7:20 PM

If you experience a great meal at a restaurant, Do you say, "The cook must have an awesome stove!" Look at all of the historic furniture pieces build before electricity. The skill is in the person.

Good point, John.

I've often used the example that getting a college degree is like a carpenter buying a power miter saw. You can do good work without it. In the right hands, it will make work much faster. But merely owning one - devoid of other skills - is useless.

Patrick Kane

11-05-2018, 8:09 PM

That’s funny, but 3-4 local guys I know have family money or wives raking it in. They all do great work, but there’s not the pressure to bring home the bacon, if you will.

Another facet to consider is design build stuff like built-ins and finish carpentry. I don’t see that work ever getting displaced, and if you are good, then you actually can make a very good living. Once again, I know two guys doing that work together and while they aren’t in the shop every day, they do a fair amount of woodworking for a living. I’m talking hidden/secret bookcase door type stuff.

Yonak Hawkins

11-05-2018, 9:30 PM

Brian, I would add that, in order to get yourself going, think outside the box and don't be so hung up on producing custom woodwork that "everyone will love" that you don't look for other jobs. Look for things you can do with the equipment you have and are capable of doing, and will help pay the utilities and for materials while you're looking for that custom commission that comes on rare occasion.

Look around, in everyday life, at all the things that are made out of wood. Think about the ones you can make, economically, and then think about how you can enter the market. You may end up making piece after piece in large batches and it may not satisfy your desire to design and make pieces of art, but it may pay the bills.

I have been doing this for 15 years and make custom jobs only on occasion. It allows me to set my own hours, be my own boss and commute to work by going down a set of steps to my wood shop. Shy from considering yourself too well qualified to make a living.

Dominik Dudkiewicz

11-05-2018, 9:44 PM

Good point, John.

I've often used the example that getting a college degree is like a carpenter buying a power miter saw. You can do good work without it. In the right hands, it will make work much faster. But merely owning one - devoid of other skills - is useless.

Hi Dan,

I think completing a degree is more analogous to a carpenter completing an apprenticeship - both build the knowledge/skills of the individual vs buying something to instantly provide assistance without having to invest in yourself - like buying a saw, or an engineer buying an expensive software package.

Cheers, Dom

Van Huskey

11-05-2018, 9:56 PM

If you experience a great meal at a restaurant, Do you say, "The cook must have an awesome stove!" Look at all of the historic furniture pieces build before electricity. The skill is in the person.

While the arrow versus the archer trope has a lot of solid meaning it sidesteps the need for speed of production in order to compete in the modern world which makes it near imperative to have a well thought out process and machines to accomplish this. Unless ones last name is Maloof or Nakashima a painstakingly crafted piece of fine furniture is unlikely to sell for more than McDonald's wages per hour unless the process is streamlined.

It might help if the OP showed some of his portfolio of work. Seeing that would help guide the suggestions. If the OP doesn't have some examples of what he wants to build and sell then this really is more of "I want to start woodworking and hope to be good enough to sell my work and make a decent living".

Paul Girouard

11-06-2018, 12:19 AM

Some very good info in Fine Woodworking ; Tools & Shop issue this month.

I’d seriously look into Richard’s tool offer, having read many of his posts he knows what he’s about and I’m sure his tools where well used and maintained.

On the “have a business plan” : Ya, I’d agree IF you are NOT a good businessman by nature, going thru the process of defining what you are going to be building , or more importantly WHO you’ll be selling to might lead you to work for some one else and moving to where ever they do business would be a good exercise.

Best of luck!

johnny means

11-06-2018, 9:04 AM

If you experience a great meal at a restaurant, Do you say, "The cook must have an awesome stove!" Look at all of the historic furniture pieces build before electricity. The skill is in the person.

But you can assume he's got a range that produces enough heat to sear a steak. I can prepare a meal with a campfire. I couldn't serve a restaurant full of customers with that same fire. The OP is talking about making a living not expressing his inner craftsman.

Simon MacGowen

11-06-2018, 9:55 AM

But you can assume he's got a range that produces enough heat to sear a steak. I can prepare a meal with a campfire. I couldn't serve a restaurant full of customers with that same fire. The OP is talking about making a living not expressing his inner craftsman.

I think the stove analogy is used to impress upon the OP that good tools alone are not enough.

Good skills alone are not enough, we can also argue, if one does woodworking for a living. Ask anyone who uses a plunge saw. a sander or a Kapex with the Festool extraction system in a client's home vs a Dewalt miter saw with a shop vac, and they will tell you why good tools are important.

As a hobby woodworker, I use premium tools and get great results because of a good combination of skills and tools. If the OP decides to attempt woodworking for a living and he (or his dad) can afford the purchases, I would advise him to get the best that he can afford. The investment in tools is tax-deductible to start with. Worse comes to worse, sell the tools and get back 60 to 70% depending on what they are.

The SawStop must be the tablesaw option if the cabinet saw route is taken by the OP, not just for safety and performance reasons, but also for insurance purposes, if applicable.

Having said all this, I would not want to be doing furniture for a living as the fun of woodworking won't be the same when you have to be worried about deadlines (if you are lucky to be overloaded with orders), cost control, marketing, hiring or finding extra help when you have time for the shop but none for anything else. You will soon hate doing stock prep. (few can afford to get the "dirty" work done by apprentices as Michael Fortune or Sam Maloof), and wonder why a "small" shop is not small at all to maintain given all the tools you have.

Simon

Matt Lau

11-06-2018, 4:20 PM

My dad is interested in funding a wood shop for me and I’m trying to give him an honest price.
I’m talking SawStop TS
I need a good brand for the following
Router Table
Bandsaw – this could come later but now would be great.
Joiner
Planer
Drill Press – later
belt sander for easy shaping parts
I want to build small items that would sell well. I’m thinking side tables, hall/wall tables, etc.
I had a shop before but I bought all cheap stuff and what a nightmare that was! so I had sold some stuff and now I’m starting over from the bottom up.
I also want a good vacuum air system as well.
any advice would be wonderful, thanks.

Hey Brian,

If you were a hobbyist or regular schlubb like me, it'd be easier to advise.
We could tell you to get X router, Y bandsaw, and a Clearvue cyclone.
However, you mention "career."

1. What type of career are you envisioning?
2. What is your experience? Any formal apprenticeships? What industry?
3. How serious are you about this? Any side jobs?

I'm a huge fan of woodworking, but could not see doing a career out of it.
After learning to build guitars (and apprenticing for a while), I'd much more happily pay money to support a good luthier.
While it sounds romantic, there's a lot of tedious, thankless work that goes into good craft....people like Brian Holcombe just make it look easy.

Secondly, how serious are you about running a business? And why woodworking?
Even Maloof started with crappy tools, and making crappy furniture out of plywood as a necessity...his neighbor saw his work, and bought some furniture...and it spread (before Ikea and Wayfair came along).
Quite a few scrappy business owners bootstrapped our businesses, and cobbled together equipment, materials, etc as we could...with whatever money/side jobs we could find.

When I started my dental office, I liquidated all my stocks for working capital within the first 4 months.
The computers, sensors, etc was from my savings after working 3 jobs for the previous two years.
Most of my equipment was bought used (albeit they're considered best of breed, and better than the new stuff).
I spent 2 years without paying myself.
Even 4 years later, with a solid reputation, it's still lots of work and expense.

So, not to be a downer...but I think you need to think things through...unless this is just a hobby.
At the very least, a business plan.

Mike Kees

11-06-2018, 4:36 PM

Ok Brian, so everyone is trying to convince you how hard this can be. I will try to help with your original question. I would buy no less than a 8'' jointer,15 '' four post planer, cabinet saw, and probably a 14'' bandsaw. With these and a drill press you are equipped to do most everything at least one way. Go for it ,this stuff will be great if woodworking only is a hobby or if you can find a way to work wood for a living. The big thing for me is nothing is permanent . If I buy a tool that does not work like I need or I simply do not use it enough ,I sell it and move on. If you stick to this level of equipment to ''test the waters" it will all be easy to sell off if things do not work out,or keep it for your own use. One final thought buy it used, then if you sell it is easier to get most of your money back. FWIW, Mike.

Martin Wasner

11-06-2018, 7:09 PM

Be ready to stay hungry

Haven't made it very far in the thread yet, but this is solid.

I've got over $1m invested. I burn through $20k a month before I buy a single piece of lumber, or hardware.

I am small time.

I also haven't paid myself squat this year. No jokes, (I just looked yesterday when I was doing payroll), I've made $1.82 per hour this year. The good news is I haven't capped 3000 hours yet.

I've talked to a few people about this, no way in hell would I try starting a woodworking business today.

I started on my own almost fifteen years ago with about a $10k investment. I bought a powermatic tablesaw, 6" jointer, and 15" planer. I had all of my hand tools and install tools since I had been a full time cabinet maker for five or six years already.

If I had it to do over again, I'd get a cnc and an edge bander almost right off the bat. You can pay for everything else you want with those two tools.

johnny means

11-06-2018, 9:29 PM

mid- level slider 4000
entry level professional shaper 3000
20" planer 2000
16" jointer 1000
20" bandsaw 1200
Cabinet saw 500
wide belt sander 4000
10 hp dust collector 3000

This would be my budgeting for used equipment if I was opening up a new shop today. I consider this pretty minimal to achieve any real production.

andy bessette

11-06-2018, 10:06 PM

My dad is interested in funding a wood shop for me ...
I want to build small items that would sell well...

Good luck.

scott vroom

11-06-2018, 10:16 PM

Sounds dismal.

Haven't made it very far in the thread yet, but this is solid.

I've got over $1m invested. I burn through $20k a month before I buy a single piece of lumber, or hardware.

I am small time.

I also haven't paid myself squat this year. No jokes, (I just looked yesterday when I was doing payroll), I've made $1.82 per hour this year. The good news is I haven't capped 3000 hours yet.

I've talked to a few people about this, no way in hell would I try starting a woodworking business today.

I started on my own almost fifteen years ago with about a $10k investment. I bought a powermatic tablesaw, 6" jointer, and 15" planer. I had all of my hand tools and install tools since I had been a full time cabinet maker for five or six years already.

If I had it to do over again, I'd get a cnc and an edge bander almost right off the bat. You can pay for everything else you want with those two tools.

Van Huskey

11-06-2018, 10:19 PM

This thread has me thinking, we have a lot of very skilled full-time woodworkers on SMC but off the top of my head, I can't think of one that builds primarily furniture. Who am I forgetting?

Mel Fulks

11-06-2018, 10:40 PM

I'm thinking Brian Holcombe.

Van Huskey

11-06-2018, 11:10 PM

I'm thinking Brian Holcombe.

I thought about Brian and while he builds some amazing things I wasn't sure he was primarily furniture, but he may well be.

Brian Holcombe

11-06-2018, 11:18 PM

Primarily furniture, yes.

Alex Zeller

11-06-2018, 11:46 PM

The first thing you need to remember is it's not just the tools. A table saw is worthless without a blade. Blades, bits, sander belts add up quickly. My neighbor is probably one of the best woodworkers you'll ever meet. Everything in his shop is large industrial equipment. He started out with much lower end tools (in fact he still has his first cabinet saw, a Northwood that he said I could have). His name is well known to the point where people pay to fly him all over the country to do custom work. He has thousands invested in shaper bits alone. Yet, at times, I've seen him do work like felling trees for money simply because of a low. I think if I was to get into woodworking professionally I would try to find someone to work for. Not so much to get experience on doing woodworking but to get an idea of the business side. Look at what they are doing that makes money, look at what types of clients they have, and look at their equipment.

Andrew Hughes

11-07-2018, 12:27 AM

What about me I make furniture.
I can a piece if the highest quality, unfortunately it doesn’t mean squat in today’s internet. The social media woodworker has taken the mystery and mystic of the craft.
The good news is there’s still good work being done.
I think some don’t share their work. So they don’t feed the YouTube copycats.
I sure don’t want to help them.

Derek Cohen

11-07-2018, 1:08 AM

William Chain

11-07-2018, 6:58 AM

Martin Wasner

11-07-2018, 8:17 AM

Sounds dismal.

Some days. But entrepreneurship isn't about today or tomorrow, it's about five years from now, or twenty years from now. What I failed to mention is it takes the sacrifices of today to support you later in life. I also increased equity almost $50k and made over $100k in improvements to equipment this year. Today might very well be dismal, tomorrow is looking pretty good.

You gotta be a special kind of stupid to work for yourself.

Jim Becker

11-07-2018, 8:43 AM

Jeez guys, it might say advice is appreciated but he’s asking for numbers and brands on tools, not your thoughts on the furniture market and business plans. There are two replies in four pages with the specific info he asked for in the first place. You think he’s making a mistake? Ok. He asked about tools. Throw him the info he’s after and let his old man counsel him.

Can't recommend tools without knowing what he wants to make in his business. Yes, someone can provide a "general" list of things that they think they would want for starting up, but those thoughts are predicated by what that poster would likely be making. That would not necessarily represent a useful list for the OP. We just don't know what he actually wants to do or if he even knows that.

Richard Wolf

11-07-2018, 9:37 AM

Actually Brian hasn't been on since he asked the question. I am always amazed that someone asks something and never checks for an answer. I also realize people have a life and can't get back as often as others.

William Chain

11-07-2018, 9:59 AM

Sigh...

Ok Brian, while you're busy reading 4-5 pages of questions you didn't ask for, and you asked for rough estimates so I offer the following, assuming you're going for basic stuff, and buying all new. According to google, you're a one hour drive from two Woodcraft stores so you can see these things in the flesh if you like. I'm not affiliated with any stores or brands, I'm just trying to answer your question without sending your thread off the rails or asking you a million unsolicited questions.

8 inch jointer - $2k-2.5k. If its painted gold or white, you'll do just fine.
4 post planer, 15-20 in model - $2k-3k. If its painted gold or white, you'll do just fine.
bandsaw - highly variable depending on the size you want. i see from your posts that you have experience with a Rikon. And not good experience. $1k-3k depending on size, and again, if its painted gold or white, you'll do just fine.
Router table - since you've mentioned a Sawstop TS, you can do a built in router table from their offerings for $600-700 depending on bells/whistles, or you can pick any number of offerings in standalone products, budget $1k-1.2k depending on bells and whistles. You can make your own, you can go much cheaper, or you can offer the old man a $1k estimate on that investment.
drill press - you can wait for the right deal on CL for a good used one for much less or get a decent model painted gold or white for ~$1k.

Now I have to go rest after all that hard work answering your question.

Can't recommend tools without knowing what he wants to make in his business. Yes, someone can provide a "general" list of things that they think they would want for starting up, but those thoughts are predicated by what that poster would likely be making. That would not necessarily represent a useful list for the OP. We just don't know what he actually wants to do or if he even knows that.

Simon MacGowen

11-07-2018, 12:23 PM

Now I have to go rest after all that hard work answering your question.

I like that, because it subtly (if not cunningly) reinforces the points many others have offered in this thread. If listing out some recommended tools is already an exhaustive undertaking, imagine plunging into a woodworking career, setting up a shop, finding customers, delivering promises made, etc.

Regarding the silence of the OP, does it matter as long as everyone is having fun with his post?:D

Simon

Dave Cav

11-07-2018, 1:45 PM

I've been resisting this thread, but now that we've returned to more or less answering the OP's original question I'll jump in.

First, where is this shop going to be, and how much room do you plan on using? Is it going to be in a garage, or a free standing building? Does this building already exist? How is the access? Is it suitable for a shop? Can you heat and/or cool it adequately? Is there adequate space for all of your machines, for your lumber storage, and FOR FINISHING YOUR WORK? How exactly do you plan to finish your work? Conventional oil type finishes require less finishing infrastructure but are very slow. Sprayed finishes are much faster, but need a clean place to spray and equipment. Is there enough power available? You will probably need at least 100 amps with a 240 service, although I have worked with much less.

I build custom furniture and other odds and ends on a part time basis. I have a free standing 1200 foot shop, with an additional covered 240 or so feet of lumber storage. It's really not big enough. It's ok for me, but when there are two people in there with a project going it gets crowded in a hurry.

You want some sort of vacuum or dust collection system. Do you plan on an installed, ducted system, or a portable roll-around setup you can move from one machine to another? Do you know how the system will be laid out? If you're running a planer, some sort of chip collection will almost be mandatory.

It sounds like you've settled on a Sawstop table saw, which is fine; I have run the ICS models and they are good machines. However, you MUST have adequate sawdust collection attached to them or they will plug up in a big hurry.

As for a bandsaw, I recommend a 16 or 20" Minimax. I have had several imported saws (and still have an older heavy duty Grizzly 14") but the Minimax is a whole 'nother level of quality.

An 8" jointer is a minimum. A 12" is better. Generally, anything in the 8 to 12" size should be pretty good. There are a LOT of poor quality 6" jointers out there. Consider used. A jointer is a simple piece of equipment and generally all you need to worry about are the bearings (and knives).

What kind of belt sander? Belt and disk, edger, widebelt? More dust collection.

I have a router table in the wing of my 10" saw. It's a home made fence and table, with the router mounted in a Jess-Em Master Lift II. It works very well and I use it all the time. However, I also have two Delta HD shapers, one with a feeder, for serious work.

A 4 post 15" planer will work fine once you get it tuned up. I used one for years; they are simple and relatively easy to work on, but they sometimes have a tendency to snipe the work.

Good luck. I hope you get back to us with your plans.

William Chain

11-07-2018, 2:20 PM

It was sarcasm. It took me two min to look up current estimated prices for the OP. It was not an exhaustive undertaking, which is why the rest of the 4 pages drove me nuts. Just answer the poor guy. I also forgot the belt sander, but that's another $1k ish.

I like that, because it subtly (if not cunningly) reinforces the points many others have offered in this thread. If listing out some recommended tools is already an exhaustive undertaking, imagine plunging into a woodworking career, setting up a shop, finding customers, delivering promises made, etc.

Regarding the silence of the OP, does it matter as long as everyone is having fun with his post?:D

Simon

David Kumm

11-07-2018, 2:48 PM

I've not been part of this thread but have read most of it. I think the last sentence " any advice would be wonderful " is what got things going. I would not have assumed that prices or paint color were the primary questions. Specific models maybe but that takes more info about the intended purpose. Dave

Simon MacGowen

11-07-2018, 3:06 PM

It was sarcasm. It took me two min to look up current estimated prices for the OP.

Sarcasm or not, it remains a reality that pursuing woodworking as a career is an exhaustive undertaking.

Simon

Jared Sankovich

11-07-2018, 3:16 PM

It was sarcasm. It took me two min to look up current estimated prices for the OP. It was not an exhaustive undertaking, which is why the rest of the 4 pages drove me nuts. Just answer the poor guy. I also forgot the belt sander, but that's another $1k ish.

Seems odd to waist 50% or more on gold or white painted machines, considering machines with those colors come from the same offshore factories as the other colors. In addition to the fact you would start with nothing and a only 10k budget.

Darcy Warner

11-07-2018, 3:19 PM

The SawStop must be the tablesaw option if the cabinet saw route is taken by the OP, not just for safety and performance reasons, but also for insurance purposes, if applicable.

Simon

:rolleyes: ok, sure thing.

Van Huskey

11-07-2018, 3:23 PM

It was not an exhaustive undertaking, which is why the rest of the 4 pages drove me nuts.

The bottom line is the OP has not tended his thread, he may be busy or he may have abandoned it. It drives me nuts when someone doesn't mention a budget. How does one know whether to recommend Martin or Harbor Freight or more appropriately used? I know from his cross-posting his budget is 10K but I don't know if that is total start-up capital or just for tools or tools and tooling. When an OP asks a broad question they will have to control its flow and answer follow up questions. if they don't they are unlikely to get quality posts that answer the questions that are in their head but they didn't quite communicate.

Martin Wasner

11-07-2018, 3:28 PM

The bottom line is the OP has not tended his thread, he may be busy or he may have abandoned it. It drives me nuts when someone doesn't mention a budget. How does one know whether to recommend Martin or Harbor Freight or more appropriately used? I know from his cross-posting his budget is 10K but I don't know if that is total start-up capital or just for tools or tools and tooling. When an OP asks a broad question they will have to control its flow and answer follow up questions. if they don't they are unlikely to get quality posts that answer the questions that are in their head but they didn't quite communicate.

The reality is that 99% of the time, if those are the questions being asked, you're not ready.

andy bessette

11-07-2018, 3:56 PM

... It took me two min to look up current estimated prices for the OP...

...Something the OP could easily have done himself, since he's already setup a shop.

Van Huskey

11-07-2018, 4:10 PM

The reality is that 99% of the time, if those are the questions being asked, you're not ready.

Honestly, that is the subtext if this entire thread. This has the feel of cocktail napkin planning. That said if the OP clears up some things he will get plenty of useful answers.

I should also point out that while cocktail napkin planning may sound pejorative (and I suppose it is) Fortune 500 companies have started on a napkin in a bar. The odds of success do however go up with planning and this is the type of business that needs all the help it can get.

Simon MacGowen

11-07-2018, 4:41 PM

The reality is that 99% of the time, if those are the questions being asked, you're not ready.

Couldn't agree more, though the many inputs expressed in this thread (by people of all kinds of woodworking or business or entrepreneurial backgrounds) should still benefit the OP if he is open to ideas.

Simon

Prashun Patel

11-07-2018, 4:55 PM

I know someone who started his own business making furniture. I am unsure of his financial success (yet!), but there were a couple wise moves I've observed him make:

1) He figured out what kind of things he ought to make. "woodworking business" is too general. He determined a specific type of furniture, the consumer he was targeting, and the things that differentiated his product from the competition
2) He worked as a hobbyist for a couple years and had some tools - mostly hand - but did not purchase much else immediately. He knew what he wanted but took a year or two to assemble everything. In fact, his plan changed over this time, so the tool requirements evolved over time.
3) He made good friends in the industry whom he talked to extensively to learn the pros and cons - people who were doing things like he aimed to do. You'll find that people are more generous than guarded about sharing their experience; there is no secret to a lucrative career in this field; it takes a large amount of talent and hard work - both in the shop, and behind the desk.
4) He did not take on any debt.

That last one may be unavoidable, but I wouldn't do 4 until you do the first couple steps.

Simon MacGowen

11-07-2018, 5:09 PM

https://smallbiztrends.com/2016/11/startup-statistics-small-business.html

Furniture stores, according to the above, have recorded one of the worst start-up statistics. Woodworking should not fare much better.

Simon

Simon MacGowen

11-07-2018, 5:13 PM

Just stating the fact (or reality). ;)

Simon

Carl Beckett

11-07-2018, 8:12 PM

I watched a youtube video recently of a quite famous woodworker (sorry cannot remember his name). He made beautiful pieces, has an established name and followers.

But at the same time stated that the bulk of his income came from cutting boards. He had a niche making birdseye cutting boards, which paid for everything else.

Just an example of a niche.

andy bessette

11-07-2018, 8:23 PM

PP--very good post.

Simon MacGowen

11-07-2018, 8:25 PM

But at the same time stated that the bulk of his income came from cutting boards. He had a niche making birdseye cutting boards, which paid for everything else.

Just an example of a niche.

I could never imagine myself making only cutting boards (which I do not consider a furniture piece) day in and day out as a hobby woodworker. To do it for a living to feed my other interests (including raising my family) or dreams? I think I probably would and if there were no better career alternatives.

Way back, someone was featured in the FW, making srollsawn bookmarks for a living. He sold them in the thousands and thousands.

Simon

Todd Bender

11-07-2018, 8:45 PM

You gotta be a special kind of stupid to work for yourself.

I resemble that remark.
Truth is, sometimes being your own "boss" (the customer is always the real boss) is fantastic and sometimes I'd rather go deliver pizzas for a living.
This business is full of ups and downs, payday is up, tax day is down.

Darcy Warner

11-07-2018, 9:37 PM

I know a guy that makes just boot Jack's.

Warren Lake

11-07-2018, 9:57 PM

im going to make toothpicks, if I get a lathe then I can make the round ones as well, then my mom really likes Stimudents. Maybe some of those as well, thanks for the ideas

Carl Beckett

11-08-2018, 7:36 AM

Jim Becker

11-08-2018, 8:16 AM

This talk of having something that pays the bills hits home for me for sure...I've been actively working on ideas for several items to do just that...bring some regular cash flow as well as provide things to work on while the CNC is working on other things since I have to be there in the shop while it cuts. Whether it's an appealing cutting board, or small boxes or whatever doesn't matter. It's a good business practice, especially for a new business, to have things that provide regular work and revenue while pursuing "bigger fish". Honestly, this actually plays well into the OP's desire to get a business up and running too, because quite often the "tool requirements" can be more modest for "keeping the lights on" work which allows for time to properly develop more involved products and services.

Van Huskey

11-08-2018, 2:51 PM

This talk of having something that pays the bills hits home for me for sure...

Not just in woodworking but in business in general new successful businesses often have one or a group of products or services that are quick easy sales (usually with a relatively low price) that help cover the overhead. When you have something consistent that covers the overhead it takes a lot of pressure off.

Edwin Santos

11-08-2018, 9:30 PM

Not just in woodworking but in business in general new successful businesses often have one or a group of products or services that are quick easy sales (usually with a relatively low price) that help cover the overhead. When you have something consistent that covers the overhead it takes a lot of pressure off.

You're describing a concept I recall Jack Welch the former CEO of GE called "you've got to find a way to eat while you dream".
I always thought he had a gift for explaining concepts in a catchy homespun way.

Funny how these threads evolve - this one started on a request for a list of tools and now we're into Jack Welch quotes, ha.

Edwin

liam c murphy

11-08-2018, 11:41 PM

If you’re unsure of what you think you’ll need, hold off on making any major purchases. I’d recommend that you try to gain some experience by working for professional woodworkers or in related trades before trying to make it on your own. If nothing else, you’ll learn about what the market is like in your area. I’d also recommend that you consider joining a woodworking club. Ive always found that being around skilled craftspeople has helped me progress as a woodworker.

Dave Cav

11-09-2018, 12:38 AM

Simon MacGowen

11-09-2018, 1:13 AM

...not that we haven't discussed it about a hundred times before.

With some exceptions, almost everything discussed in any forum falls into the category. In fact, woodworking magazines and books are looking more like that too, with recycled subjects and projects published issue after issue.

Simon

Dominik Dudkiewicz

11-09-2018, 6:18 AM

The OP made his post on 11/4 and hasn't been back since, or at least hasn't logged in. I suppose it's possible he forgot his login and has been reading as a guest.

I think we're all wasting our time here, although there's been a lot of useful info for someone else to read down the road....not that we haven't discussed it about a hundred times before.

I stumbled on a similar thread from 2017. Guy wanted advice spending 25-50k on tools for a new shop - made one comment and the thread went on without a further word from the OP for a long time. Not sure why people do that. Maybe they already know what they want and when they don't get the answers they want, and they get a lot of questions/advice, they lose interest and/or it gets too overwhelming to answer everyone and so they choose to drop it entirely?

Cheers, Dom

Matt Day

11-09-2018, 8:22 AM

Maybe he’s a troll. Sure worked on us!

There should be a way to lock the thread until the OP responds.

Jacob Mac

11-09-2018, 8:31 AM

Same thread is going on at another site, and the OP is participating a little more over there. He plans on living off his wife's salary and borrow 10k from his dad. I wish him the best of luck

Simon MacGowen

11-09-2018, 9:02 AM

He plans on living off his wife's salary and borrow 10k from his dad.

That makes sense, which is also what I know about some entrepreneurs who depended on family to finance their business dreams.

Simon

Frank Pratt

11-09-2018, 9:43 AM

Yep, he's a troll.

Jim Becker

11-09-2018, 9:49 AM

There should be a way to lock the thread until the OP responds.
Why would SMC want to lock a thread that's providing good conversation simply because the original poster hasn't been back to-date? That makes zero sense. These discussions are not just for "now"...they live on and could be helpful to someone else later, even if, perhaps...and there's no evidence of it...that the OP isn't who they say they are.

---

Come'on folks...what if you're wrong about the "troll" thing? You could be turning someone away from both the community and the activity...

Prashun Patel

11-09-2018, 9:55 AM

Here, Here, Jim. The 'wasted time' here is debating about whether this is wasted time. (Irony of this post fully recognized;).)

Derek Cohen

11-09-2018, 9:56 AM

I agree with Jim.

All here have enjoyed this thread. It is interesting and informative.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Bill Carey

11-09-2018, 10:13 AM

troll or not, this was a fun little read. I'm glad I'm retired and don't have to feed the machine anymore. When I had my own carpentry company, it was a whale of a lot of fun at the beginning, out on the job building stuff. Then cam the long middle part that was actually work, building it up to about 60 employees, so I could go back out to the field and build stuff again. I don't miss the middle part a bit.

Simon MacGowen

11-09-2018, 10:25 AM

Yep, he's a troll.

The good kind, it must be.

Simon

Ole Anderson

11-09-2018, 10:51 AM

Yep, he's a troll.Lets not overlook the fact that he is from Amish country (lots of wood shops there) and has 200 posts to date. Life happens.

Martin Wasner

11-09-2018, 12:53 PM

There should be a way to lock the thread until the OP responds.

Why?

Extra characters

Van Huskey

11-09-2018, 2:42 PM

Same thread is going on at another site, and the OP is participating a little more over there.

He replied a couple of times the first day then ghosted as he did here. He may show back up and he may not.

Mike Kees

11-09-2018, 2:47 PM

Maybe he is just a real slow reader.

johnny means

11-09-2018, 8:34 PM

Maybe he has a really slow connection. I hear rural America isn't that well connected yet.

Frank Pratt

11-11-2018, 6:52 PM

The OP ran an identical thread over on WTO, where he received similar advice & comments that cover the whole spectrum. If you start a thread like that you just gotta expect all kinds of advice on all aspects of a WW career. Anyway, he showed up again today, not to provide more info or answer any of the many questions asked by people who wanted to help, but to argue with & castigate those who told him what he didn't want to hear.

I feel that it's extremely poor form to start a thread & then ignore all the information that others have made the effort to provide. At minimum, an acknowledgement & thanks is in order.

Edit: Sorry guys, I got my wires crossed. The thread on WTO was not the same as this one, but my comment still applies to this one.

Frank Pratt

11-11-2018, 6:54 PM

Lets not overlook the fact that he is from Amish country (lots of wood shops there) and has 200 posts to date. Life happens.

I agree, people can't be watching the forums constantly, but see my comments in my last post.

Ray Newman

11-11-2018, 6:59 PM

"WTO"??

Waz that? Care to post the link? 'Nevva' can have too many woodworking links....

Van Huskey

11-11-2018, 7:32 PM

"WTO"??

Waz that? Care to post the link? 'Nevva' can have too many woodworking links....

I would have thought it was Wood Talk Online the forum for the Wood Whisperer's site. That said I haven't noticed the thread but I don't read as much there, he hasn't been back to the one on the LJ forum since the first day.

Edit: looking for the thread it may be a different guy, as I found one that meets the general description along with castigation but it is a guy looking for several machines for $900 and doesn't plan to sell anything.

Matt Day

11-11-2018, 7:41 PM

Why lock the thread? This is why:

I feel that it's extremely poor form to start a thread & then ignore all the information that others have made the effort to provide. At minimum, an acknowledgement & thanks is in order.

And saying this has been an interesting read and good discussion is fine and all, but we have this discussion about twice a year so it’s kind of old hat. Clearly the OP hasn’t done much legwork himself which at minimum to me would be researching an Internet forum, or God forbid pricing out some machinery. Surely a business plan or reaching to a local SBO would be over the top.

Sorry, I think that turned into a rant.

Edit: just to add that I’m all for helping someone asking a question because that’s basically what this forum is about, but you need to have the tiniest bit of initiative or at least check back in on the thread. We’ve Posted SEVEN pages of responses.

Martin Wasner

11-11-2018, 8:18 PM

I'm still not seeing the why.

Because he's getting grilled on possibly poor forum etiquette? It's not all sunshine, kittens, and winning lottery tickets.

Matt Day

11-11-2018, 10:27 PM

Because without additional information from the OP this thread has gone way off course.

Carl Beckett

11-12-2018, 8:40 AM

I guess I dont mind that the OP ghosted. I learned some things from the various replies, and would not have done a 'search' on the topic by myself.

So in a way, an occasional refresh sucks me into some threads that I wouldnt initiate on my own.

If I only read material that is specific to my exact 'interests', then I dont expand my thinking and become narrow. This is the problem I have with all the automated algorithms deciding what information to push my way (and more importantly, what NOT to send). Music is especially like this

(how is that for digressing off topic!)

Jim Becker

11-12-2018, 9:06 AM

Because without additional information from the OP this thread has gone way off course.
Doesn't matter. The threads at SMC are not just for the OP...they are for everyone to participate in and potentially benefit from now and into the future. We do not lock threads just because an OP falls off the face of the earth or loses interest... If you're not interested in this topic, that's ok. Many others clearly are interested.

David Utterback

11-12-2018, 10:31 AM

I am often disheartened reading multiple posts that have nothing to do with original request for valuable information. They clutter up what would usually be a good read.

So, with all due respect, I have to ask who took it off course? It was not just Matt!

Please do not question the motives of others and keep in mind that the hardest of the "w" questions is "why". That can be true when we speak about what is on our own minds.

Because without additional information from the OP this thread has gone way off course.

Warren Lake

11-12-2018, 1:16 PM

im not, lots of info has come on many posts from people who do it for a living and what they share. I cant remember ever being disappointing from sideways info on any thread.

I likely didnt post on this one, I have trouble with the my Daddy gave me a race car, can you tell me the best way to be in Taladaga.

Van Huskey

11-12-2018, 5:31 PM

I cant remember ever being disappointing from sideways info on any thread.

Some of the best information I have ever gotten on forums has been a result of thread drift. Thread drift is also almost inevitable when an OP doesn't tend their thread, many questions require followup questions from the forum, unless they are answered timely it usually causes thread drift in multiple directions but it rarely leaves a thread useless at least on SMC.

johnny means

11-12-2018, 6:24 PM

Isn't this pretty much how any discussion works. Start off taking about the Eagles, next thing you know, you're arguing about if a wolverine would beat a badger in a fight.

Patrick Walsh

11-12-2018, 8:10 PM

Reminds me of a certain someone we have all come to know very well. Well minus the wife part lol..

Same thread is going on at another site, and the OP is participating a little more over there. He plans on living off his wife's salary and borrow 10k from his dad. I wish him the best of luck

johnny means

11-12-2018, 11:22 PM

Looks like this thread may be coming to an end.

Julie Moriarty

11-19-2018, 9:09 AM

I want to build small items that would sell well. I’m thinking side tables, hall/wall tables, etc.

Brian,

I read an article where the author built end grain cutting boards. But after a while the repetition started getting to him. Problem was he was making so much money he couldn't walk away from it, and the orders kept pouring in. But something simple like this could be a great place to start. And if you find that niche, it could help pay for the tools you need later on down the road.

As for quality of tools, I think that all depends on what you will be doing. Though you can't go wrong with quality hand tools because you will use them for a lifetime, the quality of power tools is in large part dependent on the kind of work you will be making them do. A good benchtop drill press can work just fine but if you're hogging out big holes the benchtop will become overworked. I used a lunchbox planer for 20 years but most all the wood I was buying was surface planed. I only needed it after resawing or custom dimensioning. Now all the wood I get is skip planed, at best, and that brought the lunchbox planer to its knees.