Fettling hand planes...

[Eric Schubert]

I could use a little advice on how to remedy my current situation with my hand planes. Let me provide a little background first:

These planes are all vintage planes, not new purchases. I found them at flea markets and such, planning to rehab them. I cleaned them up, sharpened the blades, and even went so far as to use a surface grinder to flatten and square the soles of the planes (hopefully not heating the cast iron and dishing them too badly....). But nothing seemed to get them back into working shape.

Now, months and months later, I finally look at them again, trying to figure out why they won't cut smoothly. They always seemed to dig in or not cut at all, no in-between. And when they did cut, they'd often get shaving jammed between the chip breakers and the blades. I finally notice what was staring me in the face this whole time. On ALL of them, the adjustment lever was too wide for the slot in the blade. So, they would engage the yoke enough to advance the blade, but they'd never sit flat on the frog, meaning they'd flex and move as I used them.

So, now, I'm trying to figure out how to remedy this. I already used my rotary tool and a grinding tool to flatten the sides on each of the levers. All the blades now sit flat on the frog and engage the yokes sufficiently HOWEVER... none of them will advance far enough to cut anything before the screw that holds the chip breaker to the iron hits the cap iron screw or runs out of room. Even using new Veritas chip breakers and blades, they still have the same issue. Not enough room around the wide, flat screw to advance the blade enough to cut. Except for one plane, which has extra room (see the side-by-side image below). Although, it won't cut. But that's likely because my sharpening angle is too steep, causing it to skip instead of cut.

How can I get around this issue? Am I just stuck? Do I need new frogs? What's the best way to deal with this problem, without just buying newly-made or already-fettled planes?

Example images:

Before slimming down the adjusters:
https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1937/30731083387_9be44798f3_z.jpg https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1946/45621149682_31147aee40_z.jpg

After some grinding, it sits flat:
https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1917/45621149052_2088c302e9_z.jpg

But, now there's not enough room for the screw... notice the red paint that rubbed off from me trying to advance it without sufficient room:
https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1977/30731082847_e5e7977cf2_z.jpg

Notice how one has more space leading down to the cap iron screw than the other. The right plane has the issue:
https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1909/30731084027_46bddd8159_z.jpg

[steven c newman]

Right of hand....wrong bolt. Those usually had a beveled top edge around the head of the bolt. Some were a bit rounded, too.

[William Krull]

I have exactly the same problem. I have several new and vintage planes—ranging from block planes to an old Stanley No. 7 jointer. I will take the iron out to flatten and sharpen and when I put them back together, nothing works. Often, I can’t get the blade to retract at all or I cannot raise or lower the depth of cut. When I am able to get get the blade down, all I can do is produce very small shavings usually on one side of the throat or the other and the throat always clogs up. I’m at my wits end and I hope someone can help. Thanks.


I could use a little advice on how to remedy my current situation with my hand planes. Let me provide a little background first:

These planes are all vintage planes, not new purchases. I found them at flea markets and such, planning to rehab them. I cleaned them up, sharpened the blades, and even went so far as to use a surface grinder to flatten and square the soles of the planes (hopefully not heating the cast iron and dishing them too badly....). But nothing seemed to get them back into working shape.

Now, months and months later, I finally look at them again, trying to figure out why they won't cut smoothly. They always seemed to dig in or not cut at all, no in-between. And when they did cut, they'd often get shaving jammed between the chip breakers and the blades. I finally notice what was staring me in the face this whole time. On ALL of them, the adjustment lever was too wide for the slot in the blade. So, they would engage the yoke enough to advance the blade, but they'd never sit flat on the frog, meaning they'd flex and move as I used them.

So, now, I'm trying to figure out how to remedy this. I already used my rotary tool and a grinding tool to flatten the sides on each of the levers. All the blades now sit flat on the frog and engage the yokes sufficiently HOWEVER... none of them will advance far enough to cut anything before the screw that holds the chip breaker to the iron hits the cap iron screw or runs out of room. Even using new Veritas chip breakers and blades, they still have the same issue. Not enough room around the wide, flat screw to advance the blade enough to cut. Except for one plane, which has extra room (see the side-by-side image below). Although, it won't cut. But that's likely because my sharpening angle is too steep, causing it to skip instead of cut.

How can I get around this issue? Am I just stuck? Do I need new frogs? What's the best way to deal with this problem, without just buying newly-made or already-fettled planes?

Example images:

Before slimming down the adjusters:
https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1937/30731083387_9be44798f3_z.jpg https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1946/45621149682_31147aee40_z.jpg

After some grinding, it sits flat:
https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1917/45621149052_2088c302e9_z.jpg

But, now there's not enough room for the screw... notice the red paint that rubbed off from me trying to advance it without sufficient room:
https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1977/30731082847_e5e7977cf2_z.jpg

Notice how one has more space leading down to the cap iron screw than the other. The right plane has the issue:
https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1909/30731084027_46bddd8159_z.jpg

[Eric Schubert]

Right of hand....wrong bolt. Those usually had a beveled top edge around the head of the bolt. Some were a bit rounded, too.

Interesting... any chance you'd have a picture of one of these bolts? Is this something I can find at a hardware store?

EDIT: Also, I'm not entirely sure how that would help, putting in a different style of bolt. If the diameter of the head is the same, it's just rounded, it would still hit the bolt for the cap iron or run into the end of that depression.

[Andrew Seemann]

Any chance that the blades are mismatched to the plane? There seems to be more problems with set up than there should be. Planes are pretty straight forward, grind the blade to the right angle, assemble parts in the right order, adjust them close to right, and they should more or less work.

What manufacture are they? I'm not recognizing the casting pattern on the frog.

[William Fretwell]

They are the wrong blades. The adjustment hole in the blade should be a small oblong so you can move it up or down. The lever slot should have been wider. If you can’t find the correct blades have some made.
Look at a newer or older working plane to see the difference.
With the right blade each plane should function enough to be usable.
Old planes can work very well but almost always need lots of work.
When you look at the new Clifton planes they are classic design, state of the art, beefed up everything. You start to wonder if old planes are worth the trouble at all.

[Eric Schubert]

Wouldn't it actually be a problem with the chip breakers? Those are the parts that have the screw holes in them. The screw just slips right through the blade.

[Eric Schubert]

Also, I'm pretty confident some the parts are of mixed origin. Wouldn't surprise me if they're frankenplanes.

And, yes... I'm starting to think I should just sell these planes off and buy new ones.

[Andrew Seemann]

They do seem to be a mishmash of parts. The frog castings are quite rough on the sides, far rougher than is seen on the typical vintage user plane (pre 1960s Stanley, Sargent, Millers Falls, Union, etc); they almost look like they could be from a 70's Sears plane, not exactly known for quality. Although the bodies, totes, and irons don't look like they are 70s......

I don't mean to sound harsh, but I don't know that I would try to restore these any further. You have put far more work into them already than any plane I have ever rehabbed yet they still don't work well. Unless they are known common brands, the needed parts may be quite difficult to obtain. I know most of us on this site are into vintage planes, and old quality planes can be a great deal, but any common plane (especially bench or block planes) that requires more than clean up and tune up, or maybe swapping out a part or two (new iron, gluing a tote back together) probably isn't worth the time and effort to fix up. There are just too many better examples out there than to put a lot of effort into a difficult case.

[Jim Koepke]

This is one of my reasons for staying with one brand of planes from a limited period of time.

There is a limit to how much parts can be mismatched and still have a working plane.

jtk

[steven c newman]

Millers Falls V Line #900..
395899
And the bolt..
395900
Stanley made for sears Dunlap #3 size..
395901
Note the width of the slot in the iron
395902
Note how thinner the head of the bolt is...
395903
Sargent No. 408 ( #3 size) has a disc, the iron's slot is sized to that disc,,,not the other way around..
395904
Bolt ( 1910 era) was a bit thicker, but the "well" it sits in is cast a bit deeper,too.

IF you need to reshape the lateral's tab to fit into the slot....wrong iron...Tab should fit the slot. Sometimes the slot is a bit wide, hence the gripes about the lateral be sloppy.

May also want to check the chipbreaker, to make sure it is slotted for use in that model of a plane....sargents, Millers Falls, Stanleys, and others sometimes used a different spacing. Slot may be too close, or too far away from the edge of the iron...on the three I just showed, note where that slot is...

[Eric Schubert]

From what I could discover when I first acquired my planes, the two shown there are a pair of Craftsman planes. One is a #7C-type plane, the frog indicating a #418 model. The other next to it is a #4 smoother-type plane, model #409. The smoother at least had a Craftsman iron with it, though I'm not sure if the chipbreaker is original or not. The cap irons for both are at least both Craftsman. The #418 has a red logo, the #409 has a blue logo. But it certainly wouldn't surprise me if someone bent or damaged a chipbreaker and swapped it for whatever was laying around their shop. Then the thing doesn't work well anymore and they get rid of it or stuff it in a drawer.

I have a few others, as well. Including a Fulton, a Sargent, and an Eclipse. I can see how having mixed parts could really throw things out of whack. Makes sense to try to standardize to a single brand (and any matching variants made for stores).

The sheer amount of frustration involved since I started messing with all of these will likely drive me to just sell them off and get a couple LV or LN planes and be done with it all. But, I'll take another look to see if anything can be done before I give up.

Thanks for all the information, it's been quite helpful so far!

[Andrew Seemann]

There is nothing wrong with having the restoration bug (within reason - experience talking here:) ); you just might need better staring material. If you can come by a Stanley #4 or #5 from between about 1900 and about 1960 or so, in good condition, that would be the sort of thing. They are pretty common and often available for not too much in pretty good condition. Plus folks on sites like this know them inside and out, and can give you every bit of advice and detail you could ever want. Same thing as before, if it is full of rust, cracked, beat up, or missing/mismatched parts, pass on it.

There really isn't anything wrong with other quality brands (Sargent and Millers Falls are the other big ones) in good condition; they are just harder to come by and find parts and knowledge for.

[Allen Read]

Those appear to be newer plane irons (cutting blade). Newer ones are often thicker than the original and this causes problems with the depth adjustments. The old irons were typically thinner. It's part of the reason for the cap iron (chip breaker). The cap iron provides extra mass and tension to avoid chatter.

Based on the narrower slot, the cap iron also appears to not be original to the plane.

Slot width would be easy enough to solve with a file, but blade thickness is a bigger problem, unless you have the tools and skills to make a new adjusting yoke.

Allen