another interior door question

[Greg Brophey]

I am buidling about 35 quarter sawn white oak 4 paneled 1 3/4" wooden 3 ply laminated interior doors and would appreciate any members' suggestions on what size dowels to use. I believe for me that this is the best way to do it, and have never used dowel joinery before. I do have a Jessem doweling jig. It is not the newest one out, but the one that has maximum hole diameter of 3/8". Not sure if this is good or not and hate to buy another jig, but if 3/8" is not good, than I can go 1/2". I doubt for me it is worth going 5/8" diameter. I can go 3/8" and just put in more. I also would like to give a little slack in the hole to the dowel and like to know what is a good overage for the dowels to be made. I usually use loose tenons for joinery but decided in this case to go with dowels. I also thought that using a long special lag-type screw going through top side style into rail and plugging the holes would add extra strength.

Door parts are solid laminated 3 ply styles and rails. I cheated on some parts and just glued in small thickness of solid wood where it will be seen, and used plywood for rest of lamination. Sides and top rails are about 4 3/4" wide. Bottom rail is 3 ply 10" wide. Middle is 8" wide. Verticals are 4 3/4" wide. Any recommendations for each joint is very appreciated on how many to what size suggested, how far apart from edge and from each other, and how long. How much loose fit, which I want to do, should be given, and best glue to use. I have enough parts for about 4 doors made right now except for panels which I plan to install after I install doors, as these are too heavy for me to install alone if all put together at one time.

Also any suggestions on where to buy the dowels would be helpful as well as the best bits to use. I normally use Fisch brad point wood bits, but again, I am looking for experienced answers from guys who do this more than me and any suggestions for ease of build would be very helpful.

[David Kumm]

5/8" dowels would be my minimum. Dowels aren't a very good method because the glue area is so small. A 5/8" dowel has less than 1/2" actual long grain glue area on the hole side. Ply stiles might increase that slightly but still not a lot for 1 3/4" doors with some weight. 1" would be better and loose tenons or traditional are a much better method if you can figure out how to do that. Dave

[mreza Salav]

I built 31 doors using 1/2"x5" dowels. I went over 900 dowels in all and my panels were 3/4" glued-in plywood as well.
I would *strongly* suggest get yourself the Festool Domino XL as your wrist will not appreciate drilling those many holes. Plus, your drill bits won't last enough (mine was drilling in solid maple).
If I was doing it all over again, for that many doors, for sure would get the Domino XL.

[Jim Becker]

If you have not already done your laminations, you can "build in" mortices at the middle rail position and either mortises or bridle joints for the top and bottom rails. This will be substantially stronger than trying to use dowels. Planning for this as part of your lamination process makes it really easy to have deep mortices/recesses that would be more of a challenge to cut "traditionally".

[Warren Lake]

based on what ive been told the center lamination should be turned sideways or quarter sawn and the outside faces should both be oriented opposite. Old guy even laid out the cores opposite all the way through. When I told him I saw a Major door company making a door of three laminations of mahogany he shook his head. simply something they would never consider, it got more comfortable when I asked about the middle being made up turned sideways or at least quarter sawn.

[John TenEyck]

If you are using cope/stick joinery or dado and stub tenons for the stiles and rails, 3/8" dowels will be fine for interior doors. All the dowels do is keep the frame from racking, the glue area of the cope/stick joinery is what keeps the frame together. IMHO, screws have no place in a door frame, especially if you plan to screw into end grain. But I don't get why you aren't going to use loose tenons if you typically do. 2" deep 1/2" tenons are more than enough for an interior door, and are easy to make with a hand held plunge router and edge guide or collet and jig.

John

[William Hodge]

Why not use motises and tenons? A hollow chisel mortiser from Grizzley costs $260., a 5/8" chisel is $60., and you could make mortise and tenon doors. You can make the tenoned rails on a table saw. I have done this with entry doors many times. Given the weight of the doors, the joints need all the mechanical help they can get.

I built dowell and epoxied wood and glass passage doors in a door shop when I first started woodworking.

[Ray Frederick]

When we were making a lot of doors out of all solid stock we would often use 3 5/8' dowels, probably 5" overall length. Then after the door was all clamped up but still in clamps we would use our self centering dowel jig and a long bit and add through dowels. Usually one on the top and 2 into the bottom rail on each side.

Doors were for exterior and interior use, they have seen over 5 years of use in several different commercial settings and have not had a single problem. Some are over a decade in service and still going strong.

Doors were solid stock per designer and owner requests. We also do the occasional LVL or ply code door, just depends on the job material and specifications.

[Warren Lake]

Wish I had learned more about doors from the old guy, he made cores like no one I know of and I dont get how they were all stacked flipped reglued and and, up to six inches thick. I do remember he said they had to last 300 years and he got whacked once for taking a short cut. At another funeral today there was a guy who learned in a different shop there as just a door and window maker, they worked in solid only. Likely better material and aged better than what we see.

Here is a door place I was into that had some very nice entry doors. Id seen their stuff at a show and it was nice quality work with high quality materials and finish the doors had looked better than a lot of furniture. Think Joe knows about this type of dowel construction, new to me. Dont know why they dont do mortise and tennon, this looks like its done on a CNC machine.

395519

[Greg Brophey]

Wish I had learned more about doors from the old guy, he made cores like no one I know of and I dont get how they were all stacked flipped reglued and and, up to six inches thick. I do remember he said they had to last 300 years and he got whacked once for taking a short cut. At another funeral today there was a guy who learned in a different shop there as just a door and window maker, they worked in solid only. Likely better material and aged better than what we see.

Here is a door place I was into that had some very nice entry doors. Id seen their stuff at a show and it was nice quality work with high quality materials and finish the doors had looked better than a lot of furniture. Think Joe knows about this type of dowel construction, new to me. Dont know why they dont do mortise and tennon, this looks like its done on a CNC machine.

395519

A picture is sometimes worth a thousand words. I like the way they did that. Any idea what size dowels those are? I too am only seeing dowel construction on custom doors at every top notch site I go to. I too wonder why they have gone this route but this is what I was getting at and that picture says it loud and clear to me. Do you have any other photos on these doors by any chance and do appreciate all the comments as one way does not serve everyone here. Please keep commenting as no one is wrong when it comes to these techniques, but this is how I learn and have learned all my life. From good teachers and craftsman. Unfortunately I can't do the cope and stick on my doors, due to shaper out of commission. And I got every shaper bit I would have needed. I will have to go All square cut. Joe, please comment on this also if you are reading this. Need your input here.

Also the poster who commented about doweling after clamping the doors? I like that to. Can you tell me if these were coped and sticked construction? I have alot of the tools but no access to them right now. All 3 phase in my garage waiting for new shop. My Northfield 16" jointer cost me what Festool wants for their XL 700! I can't go there. I am anti-Festool. This is not directed to anyone who owns them. To each his own. I am old fashioned made in the USA type of guy. Most all my tools are USA made, and most were not bought new. I think the term is "Old Arn."

My Oliver mortiser is also in there, with the shaper and everything else. I do have a loose tenon jig I built some years ago, and it works spot on with cabinets. Not sure how easy it would be with these doors though. It is extremely accurate and easy to use and I did build it for passageway door construction. I know, why didn't I get these machine shop tools in place to use? At the rate I am going, I may never get them out of the garage.

[mreza Salav]

There is nothing wrong with using dowels. I have used a lot. Also used M/T (for the french doors). All those doors are holding up absolutely fine.

Here are the three threads for my 31 passage doors:
https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?205854-Building-a-few-interior-doors&highlight=
https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?210969-Second-batch-of-doors&highlight=
https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?214011-3rd-(and-Final)-batch-of-interior-doors&highlight=

[Greg Brophey]

There is nothing wrong with using dowels. I have used a lot. Also used M/T (for the french doors). All those doors are holding up absolutely fine.
con
Here are the three threads for my 31 passage doors:
https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?205854-Building-a-few-interior-doors&highlight=
https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?210969-Second-batch-of-doors&highlight=
https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?214011-3rd-(and-Final)-batch-of-interior-doors&highlight=


Great job on your doors. It's alot of work even if you are building with solid one piece stock pieces. I like the French door and the glass you put it.

Anyways any pointers on easy way to do the French doors would be appreciated and what glass to use and where to get it???
Would I ever do this again? Absolutely NO. What type of doweling jig did you use? I have a Jessem old model 8300 which is nice but only goes to 3/8". I will have to get another as I will have to use 1/2" dowels for sure. Not sure which one I want to get though. My biggest issue is that I bought quarter sawn white oak when prices were low, and not alot of sawyers cut it this way anymore. The boards were all straightened out using a sled and shims, but still it was not a premium grade. This has caused me to have to glue boards together even before laminatiing them, so the work to get there is too much. However, after much messing around, I do have a track saw that produces glue line results using my regular circular saw on a saw mount and a Forrest WWII saw blade, and a 12' one piece aluminum track. I can straight line boards as narrow or thin as any dimension, depending on the length, which is not possible with many other tracksaws they sell with any precision. These are more for sheet goods than for what I needed, and am glad I bought what I did, as it works great for me for what I do, and works well. It is alot harder to straight line narrow stock on a tracksaw than you might think unless you know how to do it. Easy to do boards that are as wide as the track itself, but not easy for those narrower ones, and I am referring to glue line quality rips.

All jambs are already set. All floors are hardwood. What gap did you leave under door for hardwood floors? I have read many articles and don't want too big and don't want too small. I have central heat and air, so it does make a difference for that. By the way, I built the house too, but that is what I do. I really don't have the time to build these kinds of things inside that are custom made, but did for this one. It is my house so I figured why not give it a try.

[John TenEyck]

If you already have a jig made for routing loose tenons in doors, and you like how it works, why not use it? You are over thinking this.

John

[mreza Salav]

I have both 8300 and 8350 from Jessem and used the latter with 1/2" bushings.
I tried using a router jig to make mortises for loose tenon. Too slow, lots of work.
I made the jambs too. To set the jambs I was using a 3/4" piece of plywood that was a hair thicker than my hardwood to keep the jambs off the floor so that the flooring goes under them after. I bought the glass unit for french door from a local door supplier (they used various versions of those glass units in their doors).
I used true M/T for french doors as I felt I needed strong joints at the lower rail. The other doors had glued-in panel as well plus 16 dowels (1/2"x5") on each side of the door.

[John TenEyck]

These are 5/8" loose tenons for a set of 1-3/4" thick French doors I made.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/D6cXqP3othAzhDSJf4kfMHPo9z71KgZmpdbBOXyWnAnbn3-L7pMq-VvCHghWeZaiU1e4VJ8FcDh32JljRcu0-ScaoXmQfLjzBw7PJabNxAlbP9qDFAefcuYz_7qDL57T7uk51Rd UgF_hfnOwN8Fn_cXyU58I499pgIDoRYug685z3r5f2AehpAUBR 1iGaSzA36KGKkVuAM5TXiPEYCxYhyLig-UCE2GICK2bTDs0zqT48JUTHPxJdcRSb1agMkpCMiTmH5nNw83d cUAq-Hcv-AhtYfgx6EURdPNR4uqktgrGWnoX8DU6jTBf87-eUg63lzUUQ4pg7hB5yBfPOrjzoKI1cIbtfFxlHGlyXNOm9XyEV ts5Yqd6ZbQsXNFSkhhi2RKAPQ8OfUUtDTy08gvfR2Pv3cmQflT mmSyjoIEUrSYvSVS1mpBBghM02OBJSzw5nXS-guCjOrpwbJEYrN4uPLcM2t3xi52E7SwQLcp4Rtg8etFTkQslI3 suvz9tqq8a6vmQV0AZX4udCKxfL9-EMLy_65epp50YkCLPiRTcqpi6e5LKDqf3riPRGEmIwS7KftA1B IJo-mpNkrd7FyydZH2bVVZXX2_incys4P5X0tDd2pLfeG4utiZ3cJn bPbsSrId5UiGQTaB1LEYhSgOeJXHLzxP01bfxqztdYrW0fJ9jG rZanHRSHD4cCm0Sg168XhDKL7Te5i_Iq72zyHY=w835-h626-no



https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/kZoKitHl59iQRqBoePjd5pbSE1zY6YMOFQ2JmJLRlBqrBQJugW ri1sKo2KBvLi54pBgr6nArXyxJ_6XDfD2A2bGqWyTnvImwilXd jJ7PqYwK891JiSACMdZc-fv27mLYMLeirac2cgClQYOR_b1jPF9jPzixeKiuMPyri67oxAu 6Ez6lKcOFc-0Joztr2p5qCktWMzf1kPQgq_zHQBHovFraZg2pMcmPhOfy2TDe gtqpARTGXaQWA1_mnL569JUQNEAwnUec-GSASUcfR2uWgvqeLm1S1XSqDXYV26GoJIw9UgUcLeCk1sbbH_Y j_jdJFLmc4Z4yyMgBCVS-bG2bKN1fBLsdCRhmYEnPFf8v7n24hhyhSNhuO1JogdCezEibXu dodDSbrXIKOOt1HoanIEyQJOsu-aZRun9OY0om5629lZRt_mV3V0_lsjmJSCaH0G8ail37niEcHX1 oXoeQdhF-1PkwNAVhtfms76V24vqbKuGan4gnEJ5orFsTqNG62y1yR6m9h5 hvj2b1FIhA-zL_ntENubUpCV3YKMv2Y9zZ7f41qxnSC0r5fE8wTAf7WTxBuiq on7CsOi4EgqcJvaxp7aFAlqY9v1Vwklxhw8WkCn6mY0aROg3kg LVqiFZ3cfAQuK4AFsLzMsx2yKP2j_06xXmxVVm3ihaDXgD7HSU MkAqA9Y0t4qYGhPPL8HIdoqkJoapbX2GlQ875S_g=w835-h626-no

The doors were scribed to the floor with about a 3/8" gap underneath in order to clear the carpet. They are interior doors so the glass is single pane, but tempered. I got them through http://www.wolverineglass.com/. The pattern is called "Rain". Another excellent source for tempered glass is http://www.paragontemperedglass.com/about-us.aspx. They are very competitive; they just didn't carry the pattern I wanted.

Here's a 1-3/8" pantry door with 1/2" loose tenons, only 1-1/2" deep. The panels are plywood but are not glued in. I probably should have, but for some reason I didn't. The French doors were glued up with TB II, the pantry door with plastic resin glue.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/xfmQDwYar-nm1C4kZb3yRooL_SGt3sI7ap19PFxoo5sBEohOSCqjgnNpOPyH XWC80biOWu6-nhqooEqXt3fkywdm1lfRWEJP9eyOKBxDVP7SlKkedElqUXORJv lSYqaU_2HR68TLIh5JZo7MO6OseU81-8ip_Clp2ezPnf5EoKcNSyAf9GxoUdhEeCriiXjuD2NJeIlPyLQ SpawLOYXv-jLLJGEUGHjH9h6am_HDdjVZRH_VMDmbmiur_mCzZfS-UQQ1l-nwTl5-TkcBR1lOAcNxTGIBKVGwBHIAwGo2XPiBsY1NlwI_ObS-XvSEaaN99dD1iIdFmdc1K4TuwJh4WTBSmPI7YB_wa8kE9UZ8d6 JVW_-168pT4QF15v4tgs0UmfBgvBYChAjlgAzNueWw52zruLdlMFwdZ uxqoJvydgg2XiOm0l0yQmZqCKDG_g6RI8EafcvrpMosJhDu0D5 CY6pMEWIW8VjOMYJOO-L0sXHExc55NETGIfdQU39r5uCtZM0ZHgyfHBbLCn9tM9iMclIo J-RsliDeeNZlaR9fKyoTLEargSvHtikaZ-80dYbad3Tbs9EI2qZB1B7JZITv2tWezmqzJo-hI7DfhXXKrkByvShM59W025vYe0EmbfQehkXXuKV6q4A7eg57Y AhxGSDw=w835-h626-no


https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/JEHlAxrME5HHpxPvnKMAWMZbeRV6By_uI6oIqrX8QYugnZob6y zPuLaAl4FUo3un3zvPgMrcOMPAiB8DNzveVjCpSCLJ_Dy0Rk4g lIoo_4plSwUGBNJh3zHuBGrZ60IK3xJRyoY9FX3bMy9BsF5jAl s_xnQaoWMcm7SFdKUgsKk4S6qxb8rPa7DNWotwiSz_HLMBDJib _wgaIhW1cQgv3W1CG40j0-iyoFAWjfph-ZfpshLxGzZOQVhrOsCEpg5RFW0t6_J3J9JThD0d1ZnGFmtMhFz 4BrUfa_-BRYayIZyJv95QqUdud83JxB4eeVr_jQZTDT7D5SM77fNTRSjuJ OylfuKaFtimlTi1tCAQnpj7EBg49A58a4jjQkwHB48TRHN8qaA vg2w3OhinBHKUm8aRtYx08AOFNceO2a2QqOt2RtMZ0kgkIJUGu pgcz_LNRwU-4FroLQf5QBmRNWssBmkH_HvIXYkH7HLhSXCApwQ10mo1k76DnH npL8CSkWMmkr42Jsu3BYUGLxyI4nBPwtwmvxp-wc6Z83gcGQdzcgY5XNpSSWZhBruOEFnmN25SMTsBW-gyByyPUksDDU0AwskwTlWZpUSCDJsdjLI1_O1VoDtImCXYcY46 FJUuMNkvi12ScQQclkxbdIUx7YIPQ4WM=w470-h626-no

Those wire shelves are loaded with canned goods. It's been about 8 years now and all is well. The gap to the floor is about 1/2" to allow for some air circulation, or so I told myself. None of the doors are cope/stick; the stiles/rails are butt joints. It would have been better to use a stub tenon on the rails for the pantry but I didn't.

It doesn't matter if you use dowels or loose tenons as long as you have enough glued surface area. If you use cope/stick joinery the glued surface area for the loose tenons or dowels can be less. I know a guy who has built hundreds of exterior doors who swears he doesn't glue the dowels in, only the cope/stick surfaces. I'm not advocating that, only using it to point out that the glued surface area, no matter how you get there, is what's important to keeping the joints together.

As an aside, I had to chuckle, Warren, about the comment of the guy who was building doors that had to last 300 years. I'm pretty sure he'll never know. I doubt his company needs to worry about a claim either if they don't.

John

[Warren Lake]

actually they did know, they have lots of old churches in Munich and areas around, they did lots of restoration work, they knew the history of the work they replaced. Guy who taught him head of the Guild there at that time. In Canada he put a guarantee on work he designed which freaked out the owners of one companies he ran. Started as a second class cabinet maker and didnt take long to be up running the jobs. Rich people arent stupid and figure out who can make the most money for them. I remember him saying he had to build doors designed by an Engineer with rods and gizmos and he told them it will fail and he would design as he was taught, They ran jobs some in the million range in the late 50's and up.

[John TenEyck]

Interesting Warren. However, I don't think they were doing stack and reglue with anything related to doors 300 years ago. All of the old doors I've looked at in Germany used solid stock with big through tenons, or nailed crossed construction. I have no doubt the guy you remember knew his stuff, but I don't believe he was copying anything done 300 years ago.

John

[Warren Lake]

he did cores, the guy that taught him who was fanatical and did this his lifetime from when he was taught did cores, the guy that taught him who gave him his shop and didnt give it to his own kids which was unheard of in Germany taught him the cores. So there is three guys doing it that way over 150 years easily. Most of these guys started at 14 or so and did a lifetime then had shops on their properties and kept working in whatever level they wanted.

They did cores because they were stable, they did them because they could resaw and bookmatch, they did them because sometimes doors were very large and they could make any thickness door correct for the job. Usually the outside veneer was 3/8" or more. When he made his kitchen doors or a face frame it was mortise and tennon, on a kitchen door for example it was mitred profile and the tennon was 1 1/2" long. Never a slip but a mortise and tennon and thats 1 1/2" on a cabinet door. Non of his mouldings were put on with a nailer, they did splines and clamped. When he started the shop was just coming off belts. Machinery manufacturers gave the guy that taught him new machines to try out and he wrote reviews on some of them in trade magazines. Each of them built as they were taught.

[Greg Brophey]

Nice work John. Alot of time went into those arch top French doors, jambs and trim you made. I think I will try my jig out on the first door I build as I am about ready to put these together. So I will give loose tenons a try and see how it goes. I would assume the same wood species should be made for the tenon material.

A few more questions on the build of the panels, if I may. I am going to put together the door framework of all doors first. Since these are 4 paneled doors, my strategy for one man operation is to leave out all panels and hang doors to existing jambs, which I set and are all new. I will have plenty of time between glue setups for parts to hang and build to keep working. For panel installation, I was going to use 1 1/2" thick panels (2 ply) profiled on edges, but not sure what design to use. I may just make them square and cut in a shadow line about 3/16" from ends (Shaker like) and space it equally, instead of the slanted or ogee style. I was going to apply a panel molding on the edges of the panel areas to one side, set in the panels, and apply panel molding to the other side, keeping the molding in a slight amount from edges. I also would put in some panel spacers all around, realizing I can only attach this solidly at the center of the panel only.

I just can't put the doors completely together on the table and try to hang them and fit them. Way too heavy for one guy. I am sure others will have some suggestions on putting in these panels other ways, realizing I can only do it after all the parts are glued together, and would appreciate any input here from the members reading this. Any secure attachment methods via "my way" on the panels would also be appreciated.

Another question would center on French door hardware to use. Any suggestions on applying a wood strip to one door or not? I am not sure if I like the idea of applying a strip on one of the door edges and not sure if it is even needed, depending on what type of hardware I use for these. I just have one 4 ft French door set to make. I had some old wavy glass I was going to put in, but it is not tempered. I also have a Freud French door making router bit set I bought some years ago and was planning on using this for all the mullions, since I would like to have each glass pane separate, but will look at some suggestions already made by mreza.

Does anyone want to comment on size of tenons for 1 3/4" paneled doors I am building? I may go 5/8" thick. For the top rail to style it is 4 3/4". What is recommended width? For middle or lock rail it is 8" wide. How wide for tenon, and one or two separate pieces? For bottom rail to style it is 10" wide. How many here and one, two, or three separate pieces? I can look at some already made door companies but still appreciate what others have done and opinions.

I will comment that I have already made quite a few door stiles, laminated and glued, and they are very straight and have stayed straight. I was worried about bowing, but I don't think this is going to be an issue with this quarter sawn stock especially. It really makes a big difference as I very rarely have used quarter sawn stock for anything due to expense.

[John TenEyck]

Warren, I'm sure all those guys knew there stuff. I'm also sure no one was making glued, laminated exterior doors 300 years ago.

John

[David Kumm]

My loose tenons are usually 2 1/2" wide. Set 1" from the edges to make layout easy and repeatable with a stick made for that purpose. Two on mid and bottom rail. For what it is worth, I've built Walnut, Mahogany, Oak, Maple, Doug Fir, and Hickory with either solid or two lamination stiles and not had a problem with splitting or warping. It is critical that the wood is dry, 8-10%. I also did the unthinkable and laminated oak to walnut. I've been waiting for them to explode for 20 years now and they still hold together. I don't recommend it but it tells me that solid wood interior doors can last even though core with decent veneer would be preferable. Dave

[John TenEyck]

Sorry, I've been out of touch for a couple of days. Like Dave K., I locate my loose tenons 1" in from both the edges of the rails. So for a 5" rail I would use a 3" wide tenon. For an 8" rail, two tenons 2.5" wide each. For your 10 inch lower rail, I would use two 3" tenons with a 2" space in the center. I use 5/8" tenons on 1-3/4" doors because I have a slot mortiser but if I were using a router I'd use 1/2". They will be more than strong enough.

Before I forget, you MUST use tempered or laminated glass for any passage door, even in your own home.

Your plan for setting the panels will work just panels. That's pretty much how I do it. I make moldings to fit around the panel openings. They are glued in on one side. After the doors are hung I set in the panels and then add the molding on the other side, pin nailing or screwing them in place.

You can use a cope/stick router set if you have one, but it's not necessary. I made those arched French doors using jack miters to join fit the rails to the molded stiles.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/U9rU-q4mm2Af3z6yzsD9TJkCPwipTz43eKIeqn0zGYOlNznET6out18 A1tfpYwMoaBUqflNbZPoj5LbUcjbpSFWVCE2Txd71g0-kf8laW3I8zAHJTnbvVedATAiG-iVvyqhGgMdKvv7FIevoNCNnsDfjP0P3vh4PtMFYEm0WiKSqJi-hjmEGsspgthCFLMQmqd7kmsV4_N_5MCbY9HOKH6pSXaUvdNh2C tuBKuOq7gzJCaUqxlbESuPcXHy9WMrdziDe47zQci6fh2NFmid EA_hFFMDWSKbYkfTHvUgY0_NbmrfqiQzsKuYhKTMbH6JbbgRsZ EerjInGCTf-Wr3HsR9fqQj_fhljA1J2M84IsA4SQvbdl_um-OuL93JI5DVF5Uxo-ysLie3Jy__Pr26oflPn5YEUFNaYQhidS3eoRo3umLwaW1Q988c 5rBEKF-b5x4fyensmLiHuKH8Oes7a7uRgwHo3Elj4xTMphteZ9wriLxQu GsVgu6L--FTk5mP5IZl_o7zJoZNdXlMGXw4h7joF5AfcNrBQh4CJyZp8DcL FiTBAIB7kwjOVKyp5XfSpmjKeMcbJ_mGO3HJRIccPbeDlcCzpR YzZQPIUfQrugDmPwqgqKptUi_qj5nOkgCgt93dyFZiDG0t7tQa WGaihjNmi7Ab4Ycv4t7JsMsrriPeEvnAazun7HNoANTWMyDMDU Gkr6oyUoQMtXgYCl28=w835-h626-no

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/fB-F2-gF13VwddpE64aJepkjGX752rw0cw7q9grZDu8GpaTOM35UXRHX vOGIsftCn1oqeJKXwOM-KApE0zo4OBKjZitD5fEyWFvQIWnXrqLRYxoOPh68AuFoJfc0wD rPdZcoMB92yr3R62PcbPsqrhjTicgokYcC9WBP0SC_NYdRLgOK U4qnxo-dg-UmA4MgyW5mSDHuakOK9iF1v2z4KFxeZmmg3wwO1YLnCW695h7h 6OfwBImUnpNsgjNtls7dAQ_LR2RefBEs1HiZu-Y2BRpViH7Apqdq3EMtIKbD-EFJPRd3IFvbv-w4DI0R5eIGGbTSNB-3kLQtmVCdBpFFnWRSt5xmm5_-B3iVMtKj2tMhYnZuyejskzYx0hn7pNlENiwOkBmdEjC2qvkNG1 EY0sli2eA5LZWE8UM0_TyizOm4Si_vouu6XlWiyWwX6x1M_WY1 4ivektjTjyJDzpwN0HWExeAX4mq0loyvd8QXcHlOMaiJ-tsqkwY87a_hxnPUR4GvflFKpRNyqbKaY_O_zm-VL09oVjMwcYibYi9KQ25y2_Y12fuxbyzbvstEalttB1lr2j4aB D5-3gYaA5IZ-FZVGVX_XgmKFGjh4tRl-DtLUsgVDn58L99FhVVE_Ocp6Bu5oKdBAfa0pWDZyknBXGpDJ0D CXi6cPm8M69PianmgR-3g3RaWvw5WU-VDR0s8NuYfJuOCCjlEeGWwNgA=w835-h626-no

I used a method shown by Steve Latta in FWW a few years ago to create the grid work for the divided lites in those doors. Basically, you create a grid using half lapped joinery, the ends of which are captured in shallow mortises in the frame.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/kXMl6tI0QlZBwfMj5r84hhu1TnAN7bpRsHZpxfg_ikRRmSo1mB 2Ea0bZa-WFF8GPMLeAC6xuNW_ofayyw-5pVd8jZgkanha_m7xtaIZnBGX124eJdphydrXqam-F1MVjA66Sg0mpX3_jEQfvvlL44wG7mGkOsyTFVO8RHTj-5nIZpw0n3HgCnp6y7mZjC15kGd_k9hOPn8EtddOWQRVrnw3FS-gfzxciiIwXpwAqE8vCoBe0N59rHcdveXKWUdTPVY9aEbUMjSO2 8z_N6NTXPhrm6JqjRxoQGhz_xBWP3LjZDf5vctcdXvUGnt8xG1 T15Eh4SJ_35-pJI5F1hUk3pU0t2cv6ut5lzPTivQQrkZddG36NZMg5gTiHbpU5 zbnMPUrFlYfI6vsC0d5KOrHFxGaCxciDaUds76GJmfcZF8B1RM dzrkTFG1iGkEkhzHc3J_r7Y9lwRRtk-4kHqlUiWfr740Ch79f6dojQsXSJyHv2wGxWQbZ62TOUm6KHLcQ OgmGIDFRQ1clddzWvj6SxiQr0PIcCW1yfKObqGnMY7bTa1bjXY O-_B9PSvOP0GsU4HekrhXAPlGBgNw1TJNIu4pdi1p9LnwAPefFyE iYoBUhXR40YRZutCZ0Zyd76z4SJ00Elr2j2vjNBgNkNvWiI1P1 fJ00Z5zrfJFXg6_FGAHykXjgM43cfU0UJFvU9Yof9XrXXrr7Qf F8i31YndlE=w835-h626-no

Then you glue your molded muntins to that grid work. If you use a router bit that is a perfect mirror image about it's center you can use it to cut the copes on the ends of the muntins, then flip the muntins over and mold the sticking profile on their show faces.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/mvqoQM67O_tuWOOr33qBEjUjgH1IcwW5l_JIPFLi3vv6LzgleN vt38S9y5nTfNUL_LjvqQ5zwwivpnP1VCAa1kKnyYnfBGOojPeK pDmkPp97vIa1M475cy6iWpRnpnCZ03c19CMp7_oDB70kK-75Z0aN0mm5ReD99M17cJXhOh9xVqNZebqWSX3J4I30hYAsFpZI Ih1-sXUTkxZ8bzjDf0wLgj5c678ul6wmMgV4h3NsugTcOlxbi_km3p whJubdXAHzZUJRz0UmcMFGnZESCABPkRq9NJIuPjjmSN9urggk j0cEF-qmR0blwpp4U7e8GaUswJYh5HkUyRI1QgKYXbcWk6ekWtBpTkJu cMedyXYB0lID0kJM_1tDjXLhCrInYrJ_HbmzJ98aD9-iAUkqHXhqHh2lu9Ck7BnuSgYl79XsVbXzGS79PjZT9pwpwDgEO vZYy1mF_qwpDydhXbQw6c0No-07GxDwrxze2OSzPwRf_E0HWHfDj2y_OoDkeZEdkP8y90RXPQa_ CgCXY6yeV2tntx9n6AZdVEUoM4OBxaLIX5iqLPOx6OceP01bLY PByR6cDIs3GJ2qsrLi3auFjlNB139gUIZQijuvC-yIaXgwx4WTiEtGxw_FwVSNRWZR0fHq4_9kr7dpK46yGLa8b6qo jBXyoVbXeHGQi9oBg_V36CsOWNQvneSXCyQxMQI40plI9wq3vN aJbOacAqg=w835-h626-no

You glue the muntins to the gridwork.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/k-pJtWSsWl1bm4JhRLSt4Ph3Pw0SFjamB3vEs_9wSDV-rraVHBSOKg5Fg5g6T7EmZU-lBvQpRLwjnycfUlandkNt8_OSoLLe7whcZt9HTWbRvifP712ED kAK0sOgLApXf4HrcPbij3lUsywVTvyRUD0qxRFQ6U3diZtV5wN PILXidSEpz7-irsI8ruEUanQN5oi0Dv_i_KEZgaN3rJbDepfzgQoxhFdIv9OdG EmtoXhzZw-8MwbLrwZhdyPTOimSG0fuVEMzQ3so6CAp08zB8xmf3rWhPTx_f DY_GOwTyn-On70Z1qGAQt5bsRRFi3gAvZKfF7XBjhgkrAjU85yod3fErgSrT 1oq37ZQKKMoTu3B0H4wdmp8qn-ciTfranZXnLDGiqb58YshfgvwTXXOZCXuAQ48qqp4aGxGgo8hy wI8osa0ZmAK8gHPjVvVjU8AqquUAXldYl2xG9ykf-9h0wNOQj8mWBxtrui4EHKtpiaMBODglznK-HIat553t56Lnu2TLJIcP5sT1s-q51vW2RfwLt96Mp6-o1S8H5noggd30--h6v4hsC3Rk6EjBFBmlA8XpMjqEOtDEZrHpgCTcZ0luyiYiDMEG QwYSYk1nRJaVqECd2Ps3dtAAfNbP4mx4qI86zXt_EG0Bs6XEpJ P_f_dnUi-K7TFlIKVC_r-HS53zAL3a7g2eqCYX_N8ml1EdA425mq-ivfLh__C6Wk=w835-h626-no

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/2SH1Hz27JeFnLFpiziFD8ENzPWeXDg0tPNummjYKh5XJ5Y5kpO qjF7bMxvGIrVbpou68YU4EVeTSKey0MYgporrSJuesYSn0AZa0 Nbn-Bk9M4Eh3stggDHQh1nd-M-AxCt3uG6z_fh7wyOZevKoCKCSMrY804BNBG9FigfqsZJ4zSfif WZZItKEf0HFCqgFXslRIy97bqcbu9u8O2dNVuicNoNyJsr8QkK Nco5ZiTJA8Ngl7rgkvzNEcIznXDA1UzNWgp71r33Vf_teIYeXS 2oAmyuCQKXWjPQPGPyXt-tBvYe-ViKAZSYk4TzqekpO6Qb2PoDa19h8snKlGeorLzbEFMwu4Z5p19 wFk0h9-LcIJZEVUG9AIRYr7xYdcgZjbF8s_b7iCAvjp1sWk-sbHrq2hEI_vzXkjlDjPcRFSXNqeDHCs8-Xp1BB2UujUjNyiUhACdqZTyYxvASS32VtmUHlKAiDidAcAluj2 bgkYmqE2olL5fNznsEctfD55ORWrhonqaLC5Co9SAzVa7Ovw1R lLMYp6OotK4oZEcCD7RiHCAPeu0jdDT2KNZ76hRGPbuSSOAUJF vBQiQwOtY05tneu3NvYnEKBWRa5GA1HRK-HNdK03Ieoh8goN8hIrRGkxjioDWn3wXpsPOHZsAjR8jmEuJSxS 8tppmc_dG7djmV_g_I9kXz0avqjB4Wjbik-70499faADCtZxaGF9BFg=w835-h626-no

After the door is finished you can set the glass panes in place. I used a tiny dab of silicone at the top and bottom between the glass and grid to keep the panes from rattling, and pin nailed the moldings in place.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/cwNWgBRIPl4t-p41F-rQGKaXHiDnaAYtGfLZNIE9oVQB7-U4p7pnGZ_kMMgtdOfNV-8VdmMKFTnparMzek92i_DTu4rExjHNlYeke9E7DXSXauKbwc6z _Vbd7GzR-xrI8Cb6ilvlHF_F-k9rX6wR8yArf5O8vwXCrXKmNaPYslxDKVt-mKI9H9Ffo8KrKEWqcbqvWkXSVeGpd52gn2mthYzJy3-f3Tw5MQ8pm1uYK3hkhNtN1FBInhIw70f_SEnRoR7PKxmd-Bmq7sKZ7yfUKueCzTNDuAPek0eiGTw2OT-VFWVA8or32GaLH972P5KN7vaky_IqUsBdRIJJ6dWhMt370LahO haI4eXYjxcKU9TWsmNz5oI6kEq1BJRr9vfFfSUdy1AhBPQVAOq SY9yplSk8HmcF2IYabXnAOsN2sXOis1dZGCkvwly0IRfa7m5Vs shAPFKGuP3NO0MVJ2RiPEyGanlRFG-r4Yvpbh2stwYCEGO7vZB-A964niH--G_tVNMBRX8S4JFNmA-zstu_0vLJNtXNfnscPW2W8ArUQ9rQvVudZHRMFghznai82JOnN rA6apL2i2jTRpYTzDRIh1j5QsQCkMX3avLJI7x2ZUCAYtpoVC2 3jxORr_H6sJMBbwAJUyMeTS-JkvmNL_Jz4Ppg6nXmZoSetE6sb-6WJKa1bqVazPa6Z5k4EYS3FN0CJD7N50WSYlCy2yLq2AQ=w835-h626-no

There are different ways to deal with securing the non-handled door. I used a sliding door bolt at the head jamb with this one.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/QEtvh-WeqJPlBjIBl0eUBaGCDnUEv_6KgCkUni2hixu3PhPWZeXTAK7j 8Mltj62gNb6G5sTpxNMqsiR0_iN-McQDzq942mXO6IWg7liwxVhu7_qaKLclv-wwY4i905qppeE9U1Kr_hHpK6G6qStTqGq_hmcUWUe1uWSMdKBB uWx6EIu1kN32yHMj3OlpaTIrKjhn-Zo9fUW50xCV9zDHdt34_0moMnro-ou61yCDXJA_bZDdlAmWwsB8EL8IauGhvwNyTFE-aB1QHNg8KwouLmxf0c5XxYid90zKSCtMasuTDbKTyGS-ugDZT7CXq2H3F5wC7I77UDtTXdidOo0uvW6dx22tjfPnCLPwyi XKKXaPvNjhbZWzF194Mnv-b3-wt5nPPnsY0w2Vq2NlLl-7_TOGEKm87itDeD8N00wY_aYQVRH7WZSfTrkAcQeY01-p945Wkkf2PBunXsL-65x9qIITWA8BojOjornnhW3XSjHO54OlCBRsIEiGws0ZubtZxw 7QkebBoZ3EBMfax74YFyMbiwKlVp4MGoaa_nF17mb7xf-5WvJkB_TNoDsTp7-82CCZ8BsFxUvU5_896101FY2IqVJrv3TI8XMRA3Hko7fxHqiyr dk-hZ9oJ07deS49pwFOEDadCNZanDIXUYjCOxjnN3AOt4Uz-n_Xx9jbYn0wFt_5z47CK4mmkVu2p9j9g56-9IjEjXcvDnksdgI=w835-h626-no

Similarly, there are different ways to deal with the gap between the two doors. I used a simple surface mounted astragal, screwed to the non handled door, shown above, and here.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/dX4lt-ogSKntIENGuOdpSy4mq8aiJPpk3IrATdr97lI_2o6uL948pmNd 1PoE5TllGAn3hSTn2Q5xqdNjFuqFFowjq5a1Zg9X3CCJapFaYQ W9hNGN9KYZGQYXkwIq44dJCPHweKfnxB7A8uIhiLVpc86z65aS W6hQWbVF2U4qu-fN8I1Itor2G4onfrMHbmhLKbNXsNnUAImmO9vckBUruw3d8y0H OtfAHaurH_FmiqHjxIhdaxorMfiZg-z2eLX1gNMEPUNCj1AEzsVLqz_J30Bbjyp8uJxuTT9-Y-c2h3uI8Nh4gshDmZS9Nrt0AgRQWMdFQjwlVLIRK-1nVm-qwQSoHfewYFZm5Fszd8WZsE_SwcyrEVEmPKVu4QNm_hjqm_XnO jQ-ZJbUtkAcs63WOk2qckHIRxqBAWWbCxfEhYS70fG7J3Vy1ymVJW e0UYeqJUd1AvJ0LMICW7yhUY9vO5Q31S-e1RV83TaXFr7LfAXtQt-XpDSUlXFwUDfKc1BOLScsnE7bxA9q7L7tzZbzOWWJhJ48l33Y0 _P62BKcMBYpJ-l6A-hAW2PhZL-FVC_zyb7ajztlx0ejiYhn9TdwzUt3UHP7qdvyet7VrlU2xyX88 7-W7bs_TGu_Oer_dkrzjCrlOhUwNprjmy-0RCe3uv-6_xY2nGziCw-XE8g-6sekOCTdboseFrdsM0J-ZSZJc9E7QeXEq9vLDruv_kY=w835-h626-no

There is a lot to sort through with French doors, but none of it is all that hard. The hardest part I found was the tight tolerances you have to work to. Even though doors are big and heavy there isn't much room for error. Measure carefully, use story sticks, and templates where it's critical. Good luck.

John

[Joe Calhoon]

he did cores, the guy that taught him who was fanatical and did this his lifetime from when he was taught did cores, the guy that taught him who gave him his shop and didnt give it to his own kids which was unheard of in Germany taught him the cores. So there is three guys doing it that way over 150 years easily. Most of these guys started at 14 or so and did a lifetime then had shops on their properties and kept working in whatever level they wanted.

They did cores because they were stable, they did them because they could resaw and bookmatch, they did them because sometimes doors were very large and they could make any thickness door correct for the job. Usually the outside veneer was 3/8" or more. When he made his kitchen doors or a face frame it was mortise and tennon, on a kitchen door for example it was mitred profile and the tennon was 1 1/2" long. Never a slip but a mortise and tennon and thats 1 1/2" on a cabinet door. Non of his mouldings were put on with a nailer, they did splines and clamped. When he started the shop was just coming off belts. Machinery manufacturers gave the guy that taught him new machines to try out and he wrote reviews on some of them in trade magazines. Each of them built as they were taught.


Warren,
I am sure your Meister mentor knew what he was doing. After the war they were rebuilding a lot of historic buildings and I bet a lot of work was laminated.
here are a few pages from a German book on making interior doors that dates to 1949 written by a man who was trained in the 1920s.

395788

395790
395789

[Joe Calhoon]

From another book here is a drawing of the reconstruction of a exterior Italian door dating from the early 1800s. A lot of the old doors in Europe were made of layers of frame and panel with battens. At that time probably not laminated.

395791

[Greg Brophey]

Thanks John for the very thorough and excellent summary of what you did, as it is very helpful to me to confirm my needs. Excellent quality custom built doors. One question is how long are your loose tenons? If I had to guess, they look to be about 5" total.

Did you happen to price these French doors according to the same way that you made them? Just curious in what the price of pre-built would have been. I priced mine, and could find no one who made solid quarter sawn oak doors nearby. All doors they make now have a thin piece of oak veneer over the staves and they call them solid oak doors. Prices for 1 3/8" "solid oak" doors were around $500-$600 which would be a 6 panel door. They didn't have 1 3/4" doors listed and I didn't call. I personally wanted real solid oak doors. Not a veneer. Taking a quick look on google I see the same stave construction in 1 3/4" for around $700 at one place I came upon.

What would be the going install price for a customer to install one 2/8 door in solid quarter sawn 4 or 6 panel white oak with new jambs and hardware, varnished? No stave construction, but solid one piece or laminated 3 piece. 1 3/4" thickness.

I do remember that issue in FWW and will go back and reread it closely for my grids. I have looked at alot of old books as a poster noted, and some of the doors blow me away in quality, realizing alot of these were done with minimal woodworking machinery. The skill we are losing generation by generation in some of these methods will be gone forever. Of all that goes into this build of mine, none other is more important to me than how this wood was dried. I am very fortunate to live fairly close to very large Amish woodworking plants that take my load in. This has saved me from all the ill effects on what others have faced on wood movement from improper drying techniques.

Thanks to all the comments, as I appreciate it.

[Warren Lake]

old guys that didnt have the cope and stick cutters for mullions and muntins mitred them into each other and into the rails and styles. Same as done on beaded face frames with proper mortise and tennon joinery.

Thanks on the door constrction posts Joe, wish he was here to get the storey. No question about his history, on top he was a very unique man in many ways. His construction was different depending on door thickness and core glue ups were re ripped and reglued, Six inches doors very complicated cores. It was this is the construction on doors from this thickness to that thickness. I know someone who knew him well but he didnt get clear info either. Ill kick myself for not pinning him down and making clear drawings. We did talk near the end about that if it was okay to do it and he said yeah but then decided it was time to pack it in. That last almost two years was caring for him and my mom on top, then his son as well. There is one old European that apprenticed just in doors and windows and is in his family, ill see him soon and ask how much they talked about it and if they did.

People make comments about stuff in books and lots didnt make it to books, they didnt care about recording it. THere are books on shapers but no books like the old guys doing huge church windows and big stuff and how they did it all that im aware of. He said they had two shaper guys that was all they did in a big room and the work was laid out on the floor as sometimes the windows and doors were so large.

[John TenEyck]

Greg, the mortises were 2-7/8" deep, so the loose tenons were just under 5-3/4" long. I used ash for the loose tenons. The cores of these doors were stave core LVL, with solid wood edges and 3/16" Sapele veneer. Everything was glued with plastic resin glue in a vacuum bag. If I were making a solid wood door I would use the same wood for the loose tenons as the door itself. I used TB II to glue the loose tenons into the stiles/rails. Next time, I'll use the Extended version to cut down on the time crunch.

I did get a quote from a custom door maker for those arched French doors with divided lites. They wanted something around $7K for the doors and arched jamb, including shipping, but not including finishing, the tempered glass (which cost $1300) or hardware.

The price to install a new door is going to be very dependent upon whether it's a stock or custom door. If you can find someone to make, finish, and install a custom, paneled door for $700 I would do that in a heartbeat. I'll bet you can't or, if you can, you won't be happy with the door or the quality of the installation. I'm admittedly slow, and I don't do this for a living (which means I can take more time to do it until I'm completely satisfied), but it took me 4 days to install and trim out those arched French doors, with a helper for the middle 2 days. The matching rectangular door went into an existing frame, but still took around 3 hours to install.

Personally, I don't see any disadvantages, expect more fabrication time, and potentially some advantages, both aesthetically and stability wise, to veneered stave core doors. The 3/16" shop sawn veneer I use is, for all intents and purposes, solid wood. I spent some time going through the "cottages" in Newport, RI a couple of years ago. Just about every door I looked at in those mansions was veneered over, what I assume, was stave core construction. I could see the veneer when I looked closely at the edge of the stiles. This included both the interior and most of the exterior doors. Whether those doors were original or replacements I can't say.

I have nothing against solid door construction. I just made some exterior doors using solid members. They sure were fast to make.

John

[brent stanley]

From another book here is a drawing of the reconstruction of a exterior Italian door dating from the early 1800s. A lot of the old doors in Europe were made of layers of frame and panel with battens. At that time probably not laminated.

395791

Hi Joe, thanks for the clips from the book. I'd love to see more, what are the odds there are still copies of this available?

Do you have a sense of why they cut the kerfs in the stave material that is visible in your third picture?

Thanks again,

B

[Mel Fulks]

old guys that didnt have the cope and stick cutters for mullions and muntins mitred them into each other and into the rails and styles. Same as done on beaded face frames with proper mortise and tennon joinery.

I worked for a guy who almost always did that. He was extraordinarily fast. He used a chop saw to 45 them for a line then a gouge. We had a single end tenon machine but it was only used for big jobs.

[Joe Calhoon]

We do a little mitered haunching for one - off doors and windows to avoid custom tool grinds. Not my favorite way but it works. Shaper with router bit.
395860

[Joe Calhoon]

Hi Joe, thanks for the clips from the book. I'd love to see more, what are the odds there are still copies of this available?

Do you have a sense of why they cut the kerfs in the stave material that is visible in your third picture?

Thanks again,

B

Brent,
These books are still in print. I buy them at the Holz Handwerk show in Germany. The ones with lots of pictures are good as German technical words are hard to translate:).

The kerfs are sometimes used in exterior work to leave air pockets for better insulation. At the time this book was written I don’t think that is why and this book is more about interior work. I am thinking it is to allow cross grain movement with the thick veneer applied on top. I tried Google translate but no luck.

[Joe Calhoon]

More from the book. Interesting how they do the wide bottom rail tenons vs the UK method of 2 split tenons.

395864
395865

[Joe Calhoon]

Interior doors are pretty forgiving for construction until you get large and 8’ tall on heated floors.
If it was me Greg, I would be digging the Oliver HC out of storage. That’s a lot of doors for router mortises or hand doweling. Dowels for 1 3/4 doors should be 5/8” or a double row of 3/8 as Warren showed. The double row of shorter smaller dowels is a CNC router method.
dowels are good for complicated joinery where alignment is critical.

395868

395871

[John TenEyck]

For me it was easier to route copes on the ends of a wide board from which the muntins were then ripped. Of course, this only works with a mirror image bit, or if you have matching bits.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/Rg2XyQcS8mBxQ3leFD39_pRYwowoXhzTfInsWv9vcPkpUIG0et TXbhBjr65ujIbWh_oY3L88ny3wlkAtTBOFCadn27eHYk3su7-95bmtwSIGLDBdhMNculg9pm61ei0G-2-n31d72t6cSj4PbCjh9B_zXGf8cDWun0ThYmXdUir08tDwPWLn9 8SPEtIYKZZwD6lA_ZDJQb3FWoMN9VSieBT-HTDu2eJqDjpzA-rMRyb17_fAMCBrldL3nYmbunjAr1a_fN9Ovdk-BYCnhUZ3-4NvNkPNvtvvFQK5Z01b4e6cwXgfmF74SOBThbWpkBZ6hzIuISj izqb2prqX8TG2J21pp69aSMLynQ7phFum0HiW0MzcotNhpVkp0 0pCerGlSCkFPIHiNVmNyoLWWeuUrDGCEkWEUN-kyWvNQjipj9POs5uqWNpbx88_2E033V4L_YMPAuYLmnNahvGhk mfvUX67l751eXN4KH_ZOOSFBuvml8RdNgzghYobNu3KzRBEOSr kkhu2-KRxQ82o4JEmFtdKqt-Hgs9dd9I_kIVLzcd-CCIfr3zZHxe_wlAjWHK3h5kobK_JUgHR_NpHuZoM8axGEaLryj khld-4UbXfkqdLpxPfTxgJ_al4WdbEhFSHzDgPqRTtxEILpdkgftPUd od1TP5WCTHv9829jo_ZQ0xXGdQG3N6c4rj129RPT7hPyOsLn3Y imNgplzA21Ow=w835-h626-no

Once the coping is cut you just rip the board into the muntins and then run the sticking profile on both edges.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/FEMuglTeHYu4ZL2-hDhznPCdt4hbKNAQhBJrCEWiuq-s7OAEAwOKBpt56O5CwQt2w9xQYBh12naX1Lo5-GwddWS-0_3DVsYuNwM5wGl0-WtG-deKlKagEC77psW9nsekdyaA9hyJ9iw1_Lfh3eHLlrnMSV9LexG D7Wnw3CDaRKspGCcuTtlZi635h-MlmF3CDvgUMI1rE1tURz4inW6wi-nnnoN0Ma4TW0_BJqAXEGnkkJrYswYRe0ToIhHdjH8ypuqc_I8v gpbQBX_yGGXPrJGwJP-qEB96iw3UpXvd8DS3fsTaJMhIJSjCGPexl3-jx_NoyWPAxiwmrdrNOpeXF21mVHXF24vj73O7hVJgajNRYkRSW 19ROJdpl5ty2CxdYJ5fwhWVIzKc5_ms4p-hZxFUeepWczRYU1HC5_SkUvKH6hLf1Ex0KWvfPguRtop5KMX3g c3KjGmfzYP0LqGQjXtli6D1zy26YSO-NrjExubBugIsJWZU-r5Kx1r2f_Wa3yUUtWrxjaMgiuOGIUnR9npHA0zUSTrK753TX61 5iZKoB_0LitA06oOpvNn6RmRlulMHp7-sFUfAZfATelKtAKinSj0dGsT3lTzUwMVA8e53fg5nBXhGZbOBl BzeNXGITShfknrbAnnjiQ7k0XwWJdWCgmY8G1GaLAEscdzc7Ql 0Zf7x8gqfVj0tnINqOghInLqvUs0CqEIMlgcNNKU=w835-h626-no

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/7fKvEV1FEPGdGy5v3E4EuZUKHPzB0T5uSJXtlSsIJklAntJtrY JAuat0fBouF4v80m7IPWYzZYXas1v3iUxmtMVwhhb650cFTe5H 9iD5PnPOgoR9lEWEglW6KSTAhGwbRbZefq0zYO5GFUcD0sIg83 oUoliflj-ioc9AHgkpUkTN0hYS5616WbjKkBHcGTOXhZirhOE2f3vZJcg_u pYB9OazsXQ14o6md2VWTQ-ufP1H8ooSwmwvhRtx1IKp81KWQggI62EJEE_u5cJ7F3rq-UtTlt2g3THC3mPHIF-vSEIN5H6lPHuSQf2AaBzn6fs6f7j_9lSaEhQozFhM36jlJkLU_ lipaCEwostcWPJ_sirZAWsiC-oIBBeS1ZvmFc715vGso2vapwGcB2Uk3Ikt7OIRT0ZYldqYWdou HyBrZ2EbUEmPL0AWXsBRKO1qRYP6VzQ1zRemRjoWrQLwA8cjs2 qd4-1KFOI112V17GTekMumm6QHRnmKDBtR2_k2iDm_9XPH6Sx-AybDNfivz7XDFrn8ZoVbL6A63RaBes-DE5D9EuwpQpkbHHgjlmXHhFmlru3lil6JDdmpS0mAg2glTwh9M DamoZZr9matLk8C9b4UV_ikx3yLd8CJwW0kO9_njj6-RQWpTeRE4JJ8y3VHDN2ytTOQCbJrZhloodvaqaU77GIFNmDslx-ICtjymJQ62RKLZKkeiS2NJXCkiS8=w835-h626-no

For those without a shaper this is a pretty easy way to make cope/stick joints.

John

[brent stanley]

Brent,
These books are still in print. I buy them at the Holz Handwerk show in Germany. The ones with lots of pictures are good as German technical words are hard to translate:).

The kerfs are sometimes used in exterior work to leave air pockets for better insulation. At the time this book was written I don’t think that is why and this book is more about interior work. I am thinking it is to allow cross grain movement with the thick veneer applied on top. I tried Google translate but no luck.

Thank you for the additional pics Joe, very neat. I have a large reproduction door to do soon on a historically designated Victorian era home so I'm trying to soak everything up.

I was going to guess air pockets for insulation, but wasn't sure.

[Brian Holcombe]

Thanks for posting up those details, Joe. This thread has been very interesting to follow along with.

[Greg Brophey]

Well I tried my loose tenon jig first and found it too hard to wrestle with the long pieces. Way too slow for this. Was going to use dowels first but decided against it. I think my best option now is to just rout the mortises out by hand held router with guides. If I put a stationary guide on one side and an adjustable guide on the other side, I can just rout out and feel stable and secure in the slot cutting.

I don't have to worry about ordering dowels, buying anything. I can make the tenons. I have all the bits. Anyone have any special setup doing it this way for the adjustable guide so I can secure both sides of the door parts when routing slots? As long as I register the one face to the stationary part, they should all line up well I would think. I think my bits will accommodate 2" of depth. Deep enough?

edit to say has anyone ever used the DBB Lock Mortiser? For the price of a top quality good dowel jig and dowels, you can buy this and make some pretty nice loose mortises. I just never seen one in action, nor do I know if it can do mortises like this accurately from one face. But you can do allot of different large joinery with it for sure.

=====================
Just looked at videos and looks impressive to me. Not sure if it can do narrow door rails on end though.

see here: https://www.morticer.com/en/videos/

Never mind, it won't work
(https://www.morticer.com/en/videos/)

[mreza Salav]

I have tried that for my doors. Still very slow method and you need to take your time. By the time you have done a few doors you realize it.
Here is the jig I made many years ago: simple yet very accurate. I use 4"x1/2" spiral bits. Be careful not to break them DAMHIKI.

396678396681396680396679

[Jared Sankovich]

I would be ordering a DominoXL. With that many doors the cost per door would be relatively low, and the time savings would be huge.

[John TenEyck]

Mreza, your jig is exactly what I tried to describe earlier. It is pretty simple to make and very repeatable and efficient for routing mortises on the edge/end of door components.

Greg, you should make something like this. 2" deep mortises is plenty for typical interior doors.

John

[mreza Salav]

I would be ordering a DominoXL. With that many doors the cost per door would be relatively low, and the time savings would be huge.
Somebody made that suggestion to me when I was making my doors (31 of them out of Maple) and I didn't want to spend that much.
Half way through I wish I had bought. I made the same suggestion above. Now I have a DominoXL and it's way easier/faster.