Choosing workbench construction

[Alexander Zagubny]

Hello neanderthals!

I'm apartment occasional woodworker and my current bench is two sheets of plywood laminated into one 1 1/2 inch top (40 mm). Attached to two walls and one leg. It badly lacks capability to support panels for edge work, not very flat and stable. So I want to make a proper handtools workbench.

I have certain limitations however. Top size that I can fit into my apartment is 600 mm x 1300 mm (24" x 50"). It will be placed into the corner so only front and left side will be available, might be pulled out occasionally for some work. On the left side I would like to place twin screw vise with chain (likely Veritas), on the front I want to have leg vise with cross mechanism and sliding deadman. Leg vise I will likely make angled to avoid racking while clamping wide panels for end / edge grain work.
I also need to be able to disassemble bench in order to relocate or renovate our apartment.

If you notice any flaws in my design, please share in comments.

My main concern is bench top. I'm in doubt about the way I should choose. On the one hand I have butcher block style panels available, on the other hand it's only 40 mm (1 1/2"). Let's say I want to make oak top. I have oak lumber available as well, something like 100 mm x 50 mm (2 " x 4") should not be a problem.

So option one: buy glued thin top and enclosure it into some frame / skirt, German-style workbench top.
+ might be easier
- grain direction might differ within one board
? it's unclear how to deal with wood expansion / contraction
? it's unclear how to design legs and make them flush with the face edge of the top

Option #2: laminate 4" thick top, Ruobo-style.
+ heavier and sturdier
- top thickness might need to be reduced for some holdfasts / holddowns by drilling larger diameter from the underside
- end vise attachment might be tricky both because of wood expansion and of top thickness (I would prefer 5" height jaws)
? not sure how to make legs detachable yet solid


What are your thoughts about dealing with wood expansion of the top? How would you attach twin screw end vise? The only reliable way I might think is some sort of split top.

Do you have any ideas about workbench that can be disassembled? I only saw German-style benches but they didn't have legs flush with the front edge.

[William Fretwell]

Design wise your size limitation in crippling unless your projects are very small. To fit a chain vise and a leg vise is possible but I doubt you will need a travelling deadman for that length of bench.
Yes some mass is required for stability, with a small bench go thick top and massive legs.
One option would be an English workbench, the front gives good edge working options.
One member here makes a portable Moravian workbench with splayed legs for stability, that seems a great option for you.
I would not invest heavily in vises at this point, just go simple and inexpensive.

[Alexander Zagubny]

Well, may be I will extend the length to 5' (1500 mm), minimal length according to Chris Schwarz. But then I will have no room to stand at the left end unless I pull it out. That might be an option, since for dovetailing I plan to use leg vise with holddown.

I would not go with English workbench due to limited end vise options. With bench standing in the corner end vise is more comfortable for resawing and some other tasks. I do have quick release vise in that position now. Also traditional wide apron of English bench will prevent me from accessing underside of the bench where I plan to store some stuff like sawing bench and probably tools.

Thanks, I will look into Moravian benches construction.

As for vises, I really want to make them useful. They will encourage me to work on that bench rather than choosing another activities due to inconveniences. Also lumber will cost about the same as vises so why not to invest into joy of using good vises.

ADDED
My guess is that I usually make small things. Certainly I do not plan to make doors (just recall that I actually have one in my todo list). So far largest board was about 47" x 10" (1200 mm x 250 mm) and I was able to face plane it. How large is your very small? :)

[Alexander Zagubny]

Moravian workbench looks great but I have a couple questions regarding it.

First, what is the best way to attach end vise with wide jaw, like twin screw. One have to chop out way for screws, that's ok. But how the skirt / jaw can be attached? Bench top has to be allowed for expansion / contraction, right? And you will usually want front left corner to be flush, so it will be kind of pivot point, might be bolted to the top. Next, to allow expansion some kind of sliding joint can be used, probably breadboard end like?

Second, isn't attachment of the top to the legs too weak? Would not proper tenon be better? Also, any way to tighten that joint? Looks like tightening won't make it weaker.

[Zach Dillinger]

I'm not one to follow trends but have you considered the Roman style bench? I built one recently and have enjoyed working at / on mine. I've got a 350 pound, 8 foot long Roubo that I built some 15 years ago and its great but the Roman bench can do just about everything the big bench could do. Plus, it takes up less room and could even serve as seating furniture in your apartment when not in use as a workbench. Worth thinking about.

[Jim Koepke]

But how the skirt / jaw can be attached? Bench top has to be allowed for expansion / contraction, right? And you will usually want front left corner to be flush, so it will be kind of pivot point, might be bolted to the top. Next, to allow expansion some kind of sliding joint can be used, probably breadboard end like?

Yes, like a breadboard end. Often the ends are dovetailed and the center part is like a tongue and groove joint. Getting both sides dovetailed can be done with a laminated piece along the front of back of the bench. It could also be worked out with different sized tails.

My bench has a shallow skirt along the front. It allows for pegs or holdfasts to be placed along the front to support longer work. A skirt will not hinder tool storage under the bench. Remember you will want enough space between the bottom of the top surface of the tools storage and the bench to allow for holdfasts.

jtk

[Alexander Zagubny]

Zach, could you please share an example of Roman style bench you meant?

[Alexander Zagubny]

Yes, like a breadboard end. Often the ends are dovetailed and the center part is like a tongue and groove joint. Getting both sides dovetailed can be done with a laminated piece along the front of back of the bench. It could also be worked out with different sized tails.

Thanks for clarifying! That explains most cases when top has tool tray or split.
In such case is it usually glued?


My bench has a shallow skirt along the front. It allows for pegs or holdfasts to be placed along the front to support longer work. A skirt will not hinder tool storage under the bench. Remember you will want enough space between the bottom of the top surface of the tools storage and the bench to allow for holdfasts.

I do remember, thanks! However I thinks that wide apron will more prevent seeing what is underneath and make handling harder. So I mostly want shallow skirt to make handling tools easier (assuming you mostly will stand tall while taking something).

[Alexander Zagubny]

395402
My woodworking corner for reference

[William Fretwell]

You can do as Jim suggests, or just make the top end much thicker with laminations that all move together. That gives you the end face to attach a vise.

As for the top attachment, in a ridgid base frame simple pegs suffice with the weight of the top. In a folding frame a steel rod hinge would work just fine, the splayed legs from each direction providing holding.

The Moravian bench lacks a storage shelf but you can add one with supporting strips inside the trestles, use cedar planks held together with webbing stapled on the bottom. You can then literally roll up the shelf when you move it!

The base design is all about mobility. The splayed legs give great stability. Even just one pair of large stretchers in the middle of legs with tusk tenons and pegs into the underside of the bench works well. If you make all the ‘bits’ substantial but detachable you can move it from place to place but not pull it out from the wall easily.

Glad you can make it 5 ft long. I had a 5 ft bench but found it frustrating and not that stable when planing difficult wood. Size wise, dining table is big, end table is small. I love making dining tables if you have some beautiful wood to showcase. Simple to make, heavily used and appreciated.

[Tony Wilkins]

Zach, could you please share an example of Roman style bench you meant?


https://goo.gl/images/Bv51Jb

https://blog.lostartpress.com/2017/02/11/roman-workbench-build-along/

[David Eisenhauer]

Alexander/William - With the limited work space available, would a splayed leg design like the Moravian design create more issues for standing and working from the left side of the bench? Agreed that the Moravian bench seems to provide lots of design flexibility for this particular situation, but I am wondering about a splayed leg intruding into that left side where you would stand. I almost think a straight legged Ruobo style with the vise mounted on the left side would work as well or better. Alexander - I have a 4" thick split top Ruobo bench top and the Tools For Working Wood brand holdfasts work well without any back boring of the holdfast holes. My split top pieces are M&T onto the top of the legs and the opposite ends of the split top pieces are secured with large screws through slotted holes in the upper stretchers and into the bottom of the bench top. The Ruobo style can be built in a take down fashion by connecting the long lower stretchers to the legs with bolts rather than permanent glueing. The short end stretchers would be glued. Your call whether a split top or one piece would be best. Split top is definitely lighter to move around and provides a place for material clamping if required, but maybe with a smaller bench only, a single piece top would be more useful.

[Matt Lau]

hey Alex,

I've been struggling with the same question for a while.
My solution is a bit different than yours, since my woodworking is geared towards smaller things like guitars.

I'd heavily consider looking into a Nicholsen type bench with a flush front to support bigger boards for edge work.
The LV screw down hold downs are pretty versatile, and I like them more than the Grammercy whack down ones for guitars (more delicate control on clamping).
I may build a moxon.

For the top, I'd keep the plywood top for now...flat, stable, don't over think it.
Use your bench to make a better bench down the road.

[Matt Lau]

http://kapeldesigns.blogspot.com/2014/08/the-nicholson-bench-with-holdfast-vice.html

Try this one.

FWIW, I'm a pretty fumbly guy, and even have a hard time with the wood gears "simple" workbench.
Still, I have a hard time thinking of what I can't do with a Nicholsen of the right size...for specialized clamping, I can use a patternmaker's vise or a moxon vise.
For large panels, I can use holdfasts on the apron.
For storage underneath, I can have a shorter apron on one side.

Additionally, this can screw together fairly fast and be disassemble in a pinch.
It's probably the easiest to build workbench that will do everything you need.....not as nice as a Roubo or a Lie Nielson workbench, but quite versatile.


What type of woodworking are you doing?

[Matt Lau]

Ack! Sorry. Coffee kicking in.

Alex, I like your setup and may copy it.
As for a vise, I guess that you know your needs better than I.

You may want to consider getting a patternmaker's vise if you do small things.
I'm saving up for the Stewmac one after I build my workbench (which won't be as nice as yours).
https://woodgears.ca/workbench/build.html

For my top, I have a maple laminated slab that's 40"x1.75x 18.5".
My workbench will be 34" high and optimized for guitar building and small stuff (speaker boxes, knife handles, etc).
Aside from a patternmaker's vise, I'm not sure what vise I'd need for guitars....maybe a moxon thing?

The only thing constructive that I can add is that you are sorely lacking a good holdfast.
Try the Lee Valley screwdown one (if you value silence) or the Grammercy one (if you like whacking things).
They will make your clamping life much easier.

I figure that I can build a full sized Nicholson hybrid down the road.

[Alexander Zagubny]

Alexander/William - With the limited work space available, would a splayed leg design like the Moravian design create more issues for standing and working from the left side of the bench? Agreed that the Moravian bench seems to provide lots of design flexibility for this particular situation, but I am wondering about a splayed leg intruding into that left side where you would stand. I almost think a straight legged Ruobo style with the vise mounted on the left side would work as well or better. Alexander - I have a 4" thick split top Ruobo bench top and the Tools For Working Wood brand holdfasts work well without any back boring of the holdfast holes. My split top pieces are M&T onto the top of the legs and the opposite ends of the split top pieces are secured with large screws through slotted holes in the upper stretchers and into the bottom of the bench top. The Ruobo style can be built in a take down fashion by connecting the long lower stretchers to the legs with bolts rather than permanent glueing. The short end stretchers would be glued. Your call whether a split top or one piece would be best. Split top is definitely lighter to move around and provides a place for material clamping if required, but maybe with a smaller bench only, a single piece top would be more useful.
I'm leaning towards angled legs because leg vise and structural stability will benefit of it. :) I was sold once I thought about vise block requirement for straight one.

About holdfasts, I'm not sure that mine will work. Will Veritas holddowns work?

David, thanks for sharing the way of building mobile Ruobo style bench! Really useful for me to understand how different types of benches are built.
For clamping I would prefer holdfasts to clamps through the split.


While writing the answer, I calculated that 4" (100 mm) thick bench top from oak will weight about 70 kg (154 lb). I won't be able to assemble it on my own. And I'll have to move the board several times during the build process. That makes me think twice before choosing that way.

[Alexander Zagubny]

Sjobergs
For the top, I'd keep the plywood top for now...flat, stable, don't over think it.
Use your bench to make a better bench down the road.

Well, not exactly. It's not flat despite my attempts to flatten it (I don't want to go through glue layer). And not sturdy enough, it flexes while planing. And I can't properly attach front vise. Eh, I'm talking like I want to have solid thick bench top...


Ack! Sorry. Coffee kicking in.

Alex, I like your setup and may copy it.
As for a vise, I guess that you know your needs better than I.

You may want to consider getting a patternmaker's vise if you do small things.
I'm saving up for the Stewmac one after I build my workbench (which won't be as nice as yours).
https://woodgears.ca/workbench/build.html

For my top, I have a maple laminated slab that's 40"x1.75x 18.5".
My workbench will be 34" high and optimized for guitar building and small stuff (speaker boxes, knife handles, etc).
Aside from a patternmaker's vise, I'm not sure what vise I'd need for guitars....maybe a moxon thing?

The only thing constructive that I can add is that you are sorely lacking a good holdfast.
Try the Lee Valley screwdown one (if you value silence) or the Grammercy one (if you like whacking things).
They will make your clamping life much easier.

I figure that I can build a full sized Nicholson hybrid down the road.

For now I mainly do small furniture, I have several projects I want to make for our apartment. Some spoon carving on occasion. Have no idea what I might do next :)

For small things I usually use end vise and now discovering wooden two screw clamp capabilities. Patternmakers vise looks like overkill for me and not sturdy enough. I've recently started "a resaw a day" morning exercise and I think my bench should be more solid.

I do have holddowns (Sjobergs) but would like to get Veritas eventually. Sjobergs always have handle in the way. I don't like noise partially because of working in apartment, partially because of me.

Nicholson style looks good especially if you can have right side available.

[Jim Koepke]

While writing the answer, I calculated that 4" (100 mm) thick bench top from oak will weight about 70 kg (154 lb). I won't be able to assemble it on my own. And I'll have to move the board several times during the build process. That makes me think twice before choosing that way.

You would be surprised what a person can move by themselves using care, body leverage and a fulcrum.

jtk

[Alexander Zagubny]

You would be surprised what a person can move by themselves using care, body leverage and a fulcrum.

jtk
Do you know some good fulcrum manufacturer? I need spare ones :)

I imagine it might be hard to get it from the floor to 40" height... Looks like I should add some saw horses to my build list.

[Matt Lau]

Sjobergs

Well, not exactly. It's not flat despite my attempts to flatten it (I don't want to go through glue layer). And not sturdy enough, it flexes while planing. And I can't properly attach front vise. Eh, I'm talking like I want to have solid thick bench top...



For now I mainly do small furniture, I have several projects I want to make for our apartment. Some spoon carving on occasion. Have no idea what I might do next :)

For small things I usually use end vise and now discovering wooden two screw clamp capabilities. Patternmakers vise looks like overkill for me and not sturdy enough. I've recently started "a resaw a day" morning exercise and I think my bench should be more solid.

I do have holddowns (Sjobergs) but would like to get Veritas eventually. Sjobergs always have handle in the way. I don't like noise partially because of working in apartment, partially because of me.

Nicholson style looks good especially if you can have right side available.


You're in Russia, right?
The Russian plywood I get is particularly great stuff, and only surpassed by Finish marine grade baltic ply or Appleply (American).
I'm surprised your plywood top isn't flat...but can understand the allure of a nice solid top.
1.5" should be thick enough.

As for getting a top high enough, Stan's technique was to build a trestle/leg base first.
He'd have the top in parts on top, and glue them up on top of the base.

But yeah, the Lee Valley screw down holdfasts are quick, unobtrusive, and silent.



If you get frustrated, you can resort to screwing the base together.

[Alexander Zagubny]

395647
I started putting it all together. Scale ruler played a bad trick on me and length of the bench first was drawn in wrong scale. Damn, I was about to make 2.4 meters long bench! And it looks much better than 1.5 m :D
I will probably will get lumber for the base first...

[Matt Lau]

Looks nice. Btw, you can get the layout and dimensions for the bench for free. https://woodandshop.com/moravianworkbench/

FWIW, I bought the DVD.
It's not a bad thing, but I found it frustratingly slow (since I don't have a ton of time).

Then again, I've been slowly moving to the dark side (power tools).

[Alexander Zagubny]

Thanks for pointing out to layout / dimensions!
Mine will have slight changes compared to that one including height, bolt-tightened stretchers, angled vise and shelf for shavings. If all goes good I will continue making drawing and plans for it and sharing plans with others will help me to keep them simple, organized and understandable.

I went nuts and bought all the lumber for the bench. I was curious about comparing prices, especially since I bought some American white oak but got difficulties understanding board foot. I first thought it measure of area :)
Overall I've spent about $500 for 0.28 cubic meter of oak, half European, half American. All in 2" thickness.

Now I need to rough cut boards to size and store them under my current bench. That including ripping white oak into halves, that was the only option to get bench top :-/

[David Eisenhauer]

Now that you have started, the hardest part of building a bench is over with :). You are on the way to a new bench!

[Richard McComas]

Not sure if this is what your looking for but for an apartment something like this.....maybe.

https://youtu.be/fpQprRclcss

[Alexander Zagubny]

Thanks Richard, interesting video.
Although I'm certain about bench type, it will be Moravian-like. However I need to decide on some details like exact height and back side.

As for height, I currently have 40" table with vises and lift that affected my back in very positive way. However planing became different. I get used to it, but want to try 1-2" lower top. Going to cut leg of existing one and see how it will work out.
With back side, if I make legs flush, they will interfere with the molding and possibly with non-flat walls. Current solution I think about is detachable section 1-2" width that can also serve as tool slot.

And of course small details like criss-cross paired with mortise and bolt.

[Pat Barry]

You would be surprised what a person can move by themselves using care, body leverage and a fulcrum.

jtk
Einstein said, "give me a long enough lever and a fulcrum and I'll break it". :)

[Tom Bender]

When you go to a freestanding bench you are going to miss the stability the walls provided. Planing will make it move around unless it is pretty heavy. You might want to keep it clamped to the walls most of the time.

An apron will not be needed to strengthen a 4" top. You could just attach the legs like a big chair. Expansion problems solved.

[Matt Lau]

Having it braced to the wall will be greatly helpful, unless you're using Japanese/Chinese planes which can work on the pull.

Personally, I salute your commitment!
Especially considering that wood cost in Moscow is probably way higher than here.

[Alexander Zagubny]

Thanks Matt!

I was surprised to calculate approximate value for oak as under $5 per board foot (2 inches thickness). However salary might vary :rolleyes:

I think optional attachment to the wall should not be a problem and can be easily added later.


Wood is stored under the current bench, I now have to rip oak (6 boards 5 feet long). For that saw bench would be useful, so I'm building one.

395993

[Matt Lau]

I'm totally going to steal ideas from your old bench.

[Alexander Zagubny]

I'm totally going to steal ideas from your old bench.
Not a proper bench. More like two pieces of plywood laminated together hung in the middle of nowhere. I can make some photos if you want, will be glad to share details.

I also would make it a bit different if I have to, like mount end vise a bit lower to allow more clearance for the rods and make wooden jaws thicker on the top. Mount both vises in a sturdier way, so end vise won't move away from bench and face vise won't rack.

[ken hatch]

When you go to a freestanding bench you are going to miss the stability the walls provided. Planing will make it move around unless it is pretty heavy. You might want to keep it clamped to the walls most of the time.

An apron will not be needed to strengthen a 4" top. You could just attach the legs like a big chair. Expansion problems solved.

Tom,

A properly designed and constructed bench will not move even if much lighter than a full on Roubo. There should be no need to attach the bench to the wall unless you just want it that way.

ken

[Jim Koepke]

Tom,

A properly designed and constructed bench will not move even if much lighter than a full on Roubo. There should be no need to attach the bench to the wall unless you just want it that way.

ken

This made me wonder about the Sjobeg bench in my shop and its propensity to walk across the room when planing along its length. Then the term "properly designed and constructed" resonated. The walking was cured with a 5 gallon bucket and a bag of cement.

jtk

[ken hatch]

This made me wonder about the Sjobeg bench in my shop and its propensity to walk across the room when planing along its length. Then the term "properly designed and constructed" resonated. The walking was cured with a 5 gallon bucket and a bag of cement.

jtk

Jim,

BTW, a good design element :D,

ken

[Alexander Zagubny]

Preparing for the bench build and trying drawbore mortise and tenon. That's the first (saw) bench glue up for me, phew...
396227

[ken hatch]

Preparing for the bench build and trying drawbore mortise and tenon. That's the first bench glue up for me, phew...
396227

Alexander,

Yep, working bench sized timber can be a workout:),

ken

[Alexander Zagubny]

When I stacked up my wood, I discovered that I missed some parts required for the bench, including vise leg or vise chop. The best option I can have now is to glue up one of them from combination of European oak and white oak. I thought about resawing piece of white oak and making a white - European - white oak sandwich to equalize moisture exchange. However I will need to have about 20 inches long groove for criss-cross that will go through the white oak layer and expose internals.

Does that sound like I should make another trip and buy missing plank or I'm too concerned about possible difference in wood shrinkage between species? Radial vs tangential difference is much more (1.9) compared to white vs European (1.2) and grain orientation is not consistent on European one.

I cannot identify European oak, the closest are holm and English oak: https://www.wood-database.com/wood-finder/?fwp_location=europe&fwp_name=O
White oak is probably that one: https://www.wood-database.com/white-oak/
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[Alexander Zagubny]

397785397786397787

I finally restored old saw I have laying around for a while. It has relatively coarse teeth and I sharpened it rip-cut. It turned out to be very comfortable, light and versatile. Handle is lovely and worn out where index finger lays, plate was rusty and has through holes near and under the handle.
I was so excited about how the first rip cut felt that went crazy and ripped all 6 boards. Will probably regret that tomorrow :)

[michael langman]

Alexander, If you ripped all of those boards in one day, you must be awful young, strong and be in the shape of an Olympian athlete. From the looks of your desire and determination you are going to produce an outstanding bench for sure.

[Alexander Zagubny]

Thanks, Michael!
I hope to build nice bench that I will enjoy using.