Why aren’t there many stainless steel body hand planes?

[Bill Dindner]

Title pretty much sums it up, why aren’t there many stainless steel body hand planes on the market? I think Bridge city makes some, and there are a few brass/bronze planes around, but I would think there would be allot of demand for some?

in my NYC non temperature control shop, corrosion is a constant battle, and I’d love some stainless plane bodies.

[Bruce Page]

Probably cost of manufacturing. SS doesn’t cast as easily, machine as easily, or grind as easily. I think there are some high end SS planes available but they’re also high priced.

LN sells some planes made out of rust free bronze at reasonable prices.

[Andrew Seemann]

Probably cost of manufacturing. SS doesn’t cast as easily, machine as easily, or grind as easily.

That might be it. Stainless was about my least favorite material to work with as a machinist. It somehow had the bad qualities of many metals rolled into one.

[Bruce Page]

The worst I have machined was 21-6-9 stainless steel for nuke reactor hardware. It made 304 seem like aluminum in comparison.

[Matt Mattingley]

Stainless steel is expensive to start with. Everything about machining it is PITA. It is non-magnetic, doesn’t hold a sharp edges as long as A2, D2, S2 M2 or HSS. It doesn’t heat treat very easily.

The only thing I love about stainless steel is, it welds beautiful.

[Warren Mickley]

Stainless steel is expensive to start with. Everything about machining it is PITA. It is non-magnetic, doesn’t hold a sharp edges as long as A2, D2, S2 M2 or HSS. It doesn’t heat treat very easily.


D2 steel is 11-13% chromium, which is to say nearly stainless steel.

So called "PM V11" is stainless steel. Probably its ease of machining was a big factor in its choice for chisels.

[Jack Lemley]

I have a BCTW block plane that has a SS body. Very nice plane and pricey too.

Jack

[William Fretwell]

You could think about some wooden body planes, then you only have to watch the blade rust!
I do wonder if when i’m 90 I will prefer lighter wooden planes, until then I wipe thin oil on all my tools. The summers here are very hot and humid but my tools show almost no rust. Saw blades are the first to show some discolouration.

[Malcolm Schweizer]

As already said, it's the cost of materials, and the more difficult (and costly) casting and machining. I know this all too well as I shape a 200 pound 316 stainless steel centerboard for a boat. I'm working on it a little at a time. It's hard stuff. Bronze is a more favored choice- less costly, easier to machine, and easier to cast- plus it looks cool.

[michael langman]

I always hated those darn long stringy chips coming off the cutter while doing lathe work. Formed a lot of 17-4 and 17-7 for the medical industry iot various bariatric, guns, surgical guns. Stamps and pierces, forms, really well in progressive dies. Inconel 600, Hastelloy steels, what a pain to draw and form.

[Jacob Reverb]

The only thing I love about stainless steel is, it welds beautiful.

Don't forget, it warps beautiful when you weld it, too!

[Chris Parks]

Don't forget, it warps beautiful when you weld it, too!

Carbon migration can also be a problem.

[Matt Mattingley]

D2 steel is 11-13% chromium, which is to say nearly stainless steel.
Yeah they have some similarities. But their end product with heat treat are quite different.

There is a major reason why I use D2 in my blanking punches and my form punches and not stainless steel. Maybe you can elaborate on how they nearly the same. Sometimes I send my D2 out for Nitride to give a Rockwell value of 72 candy coating, on the 60–62.

I build one of a kind tools... from small US tank transmission gears to F-18 landing gear. Everything I build is somewhat custom... I just finished this product of the week. Bronze bushings, drill rod pins heat treated, D2 pins heat treated, A2 Crosshair scope plates. No processing left the shop. It was all done internally in a one-man shop.

Don’t get me wrong some of my customers ask for a third-party certification which I need to provide. With CMM or external heat treat certifications. This is a game that nobody wants to get into. Have i told you yet,I hate my job??

Cast iron or cast aluminum are some of the most stable products. Cast-iron being the best ware resistant of the two, Make for the cheapest product. Cast-iron just simply Rusts if not taken care of. But it is super stable. What I mean by super stable, is it does not move very much in years to come.

This is my project from last week.
395075395076395077

[Brian Holcombe]

Probably it would increase the cost by 3x or more and for very little utility. Not to mention very difficult for the end consumer to reflatten if ever necessary.

Ive done quite a bit of work with stainless, I love welding it, but machining far less so.

[Matt Mattingley]

Machining it is not a problem if you are well tooled. There are carbide inserts designed specifically for stainless steel with interrupted cut and continuous cut. Some of the harder tool steels that are not a interrupted cut I use ceramic inserts . For jig grinding i diamond or stone cutters.

I giggle from reading this from another thread. It’s not going on the space shuttle!

If you want to buy a NASA plane. You will pay NASA prices.

I will jig grind every dowel hole At $30 a piece for set up & $30/hole. About 4 dollars apiece for each screw and dowel. Machine time 10 hours at $62 an hour, jig grinding $270ish... I Purchased stainless steel 304-316 at about 8-$10 a pound... are use a square volume of .2833 pounds per cubic inch then I double that for chip volume.

My quick calculation would be about $2000ish for a 12” plane... anyone up for that???

[Van Huskey]

I would think most SS planes are 304 but I would love to see a highly polished 904L plane. The machining would cost a fortune but it would start to take on that white gold luster at high polish.

[Luke Dupont]

I'm actually not a big fan of stainless. I kind of like the patina I get on old Stanley planes, and I've never had a problem with rust, even in the super humid climate that I used to live.

I also wouldn't want to flatten the sole of such a plane, which, if what others is saying is true, may be more likely necessary considering that stainless is reportedly less stable.

[Matt Lau]

Dumb question---- why not plastic or stabilized wood?

Won't it be pretty inert?

You can have a ultra low friction sole for it.

[Matt Mattingley]

Dumb question---- why not plastic or stabilized wood?

Won't it be pretty inert?

You can have a ultra low friction sole for it.

Matt, you pretty much hit the nail on the head. 3-D printing using palmers has pretty much killed my trade. Lite 3&5 C&C have done another number. Resources for finding cheaper labour are consumers requirements.... well I’m getting dangerously close to playing political.

A/CAW printed this bumper sticker

“Hungry and out of work, eat your Honda”

[Vincent Tai]

Dumb question---- why not plastic or stabilized wood?

Won't it be pretty inert?

You can have a ultra low friction sole for it.

I've been wanting to do few planes out of stabilized wood. Just don't really want to mortise then out by hand is what's stopping me so far. It also seems like it'll be pretty hard to get the interior surfaces as crisp (scratch free) as I would want to. Konrad Sauer has done some stunning infills with stabilized wood.

[Stewie Simpson]

Vincent; the following might spur you on.

http://i1009.photobucket.com/albums/af219/swagman001/german%20plane%20build/_DSC0149_zpsczutnq2l.jpg (http://s1009.photobucket.com/user/swagman001/media/german%20plane%20build/_DSC0149_zpsczutnq2l.jpg.html)

http://i1009.photobucket.com/albums/af219/swagman001/german%20plane%20build/_DSC0150_zpsspxkiw18.jpg (http://s1009.photobucket.com/user/swagman001/media/german%20plane%20build/_DSC0150_zpsspxkiw18.jpg.html)

http://i1009.photobucket.com/albums/af219/swagman001/german%20plane%20build/_DSC0151_zpsg0baj0zc.jpg (http://s1009.photobucket.com/user/swagman001/media/german%20plane%20build/_DSC0151_zpsg0baj0zc.jpg.html)

http://i1009.photobucket.com/albums/af219/swagman001/german%20plane%20build/_DSC0154_zpsctmbdbxo.jpg (http://s1009.photobucket.com/user/swagman001/media/german%20plane%20build/_DSC0154_zpsctmbdbxo.jpg.html)

http://i1009.photobucket.com/albums/af219/swagman001/german%20plane%20build/_DSC0155_zpsk20wni7c.jpg (http://s1009.photobucket.com/user/swagman001/media/german%20plane%20build/_DSC0155_zpsk20wni7c.jpg.html)

[Stewie Simpson]

http://i1009.photobucket.com/albums/af219/swagman001/german%20plane%20build/_DSC0157_zpsgmax23ks.jpg (http://s1009.photobucket.com/user/swagman001/media/german%20plane%20build/_DSC0157_zpsgmax23ks.jpg.html)

http://i1009.photobucket.com/albums/af219/swagman001/german%20plane%20build/_DSC0159_zpsufmbtefj.jpg (http://s1009.photobucket.com/user/swagman001/media/german%20plane%20build/_DSC0159_zpsufmbtefj.jpg.html)

http://i1009.photobucket.com/albums/af219/swagman001/german%20plane%20build/_DSC0165_zpsbe9jxlo9.jpg (http://s1009.photobucket.com/user/swagman001/media/german%20plane%20build/_DSC0165_zpsbe9jxlo9.jpg.html)

[Vincent Tai]

Vincent; the following might spur you on.

http://i1009.photobucket.com/albums/af219/swagman001/german%20plane%20build/_DSC0149_zpsczutnq2l.jpg (http://s1009.photobucket.com/user/swagman001/media/german%20plane%20build/_DSC0149_zpsczutnq2l.jpg.html)

Stewie; I thought this was plain jarrah? Or was this stabilized jarrah? if so how did you go about the mortising, I have been dreading the idea of relying on a drill press or a mortise machine which I don't have. I have chopped out planes in stuff like tiger wood and some other really hard stuff with no drilling (other than the mouth a couple of times) but any exotic pales in the face of stabilized wood... I held some yesterday and gave it a couple knocks together and whew it gave me even more dread. I talked to the knife maker that had brought these stabilized wood pieces and he was unsure if I could get by with hand tools. He thought mortising by hand it would be like trying to mortise plexiglass by hand. If you've done it though then it must be possible. Beautiful plane, one of my favourites amongst the many you've shared. The set of hollows and rounds take the cherry for me.

[lowell holmes]

Show Off, show off!

[Stewie Simpson]

Vincent; its natural timber that's not been infused with plastic resin.

Stewe;

[Derek Cohen]

Stewie; I thought this was plain jarrah? Or was this stabilized jarrah? if so how did you go about the mortising, I have been dreading the idea of relying on a drill press or a mortise machine which I don't have. I have chopped out planes in stuff like tiger wood and some other really hard stuff with no drilling (other than the mouth a couple of times) but any exotic pales in the face of stabilized wood... I held some yesterday and gave it a couple knocks together and whew it gave me even more dread. I talked to the knife maker that had brought these stabilized wood pieces and he was unsure if I could get by with hand tools. He thought mortising by hand it would be like trying to mortise plexiglass by hand.

Hi Vincent

The stabilised wood is only for infills, where the sections are solid and able to be machined to fit the plane shell. I share the opinion of your knife maker friend.

Even in unstabilised hard woods, the task is formidable enough that chopping is not recommended, and one turns to drilling out the waste. Chisels and floats are for finishing.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Matt Mattingley]

It’s natural timber that's not been infused with plastic resin.

Stewe;
Wow!!! I love your work! Please share more.

[Vincent Tai]

Beautiful and impressive nonetheless.

[Matt Lau]

Matt, you pretty much hit the nail on the head. 3-D printing using palmers has pretty much killed my trade. Lite 3&5 C&C have done another number. Resources for finding cheaper labour are consumers requirements.... well I’m getting dangerously close to playing political.

A/CAW printed this bumper sticker

“Hungry and out of work, eat your Honda”


Hey Matt,

Ironically, I go out of my way to support guys like you.
In dentistry, a lot of guys are going to cheap, milled crowns from mega-labs (sometimes offshoring work).
I insist on local, hand-made labwork that is done right...after all, my name is on it!

What trade do you do?

-Matt

ps. I find that people get what they pay for usually.

[Vincent Tai]

Hi Vincent

The stabilised wood is only for infills, where the sections are solid and able to be machined to fit the plane shell. I share the opinion of your knife maker friend.

Even in unstabilised hard woods, the task is formidable enough that chopping is not recommended, and one turns to drilling out the waste. Chisels and floats are for finishing.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Hey Derek, I did know that Konrad relied on his usual process of bandsawing waste, etc and the finishing and fitting process was done as usual. There was a surprising amount of handwork that seemed to be easily done which you can see on his Instagram. He hand cut and filed all the mating to shell parts with his usual Wenzloff and files. A quote from Konrad's instagram "So far, I am pleasantly shocked at how much this feels like wood... or at least, how much it feels like the typical infill woods I use. So far so good. ."

All that being said I am increasingly resigned to the the fact that the knife maker and you are right. I have confidence in chopping out exotics; particular in something like a Kanna dai which are much easier to make than a traditional western type woodie. Yet I just can't really imagine my chisels surviving such a task as the stabilized wood. You have one of those PM HSS Japanese chisels from Stu, I remember him saying somewhere that he might have to find some aluminum to see some wear and tear on these sort of chisels. Do you think the construction of those chisels could take a wallop from a 1 kg hammer? or a 4 pound one? Or survive an encounter with a piece of stabilized? I usually would hesitate to use these hammers outside of smithing but there is a neanderthal in me that would like to try everything by hand no matter how ridiculous at least once. Having seen Dai makers go through ebony like butter doesn't help. Don't worry there's a rational modern side that wants a full fledged machine room. Well, maybe not rational but you get the point.

Thanks,

Vincent

[Stewie Simpson]

Chisels and floats are for finishing.

When your removing the waste from a traditional wedge abutment plane, you have limits on how much waste can be removed using machine boring. That still leaves you with a substantial amount of waste that has to be removed by hand using chisels and planemaker floats.

http://i1009.photobucket.com/albums/af219/swagman001/toothed%20foreplane/DSC_0238_zpsbdf41c1a.jpg (http://s1009.photobucket.com/user/swagman001/media/toothed%20foreplane/DSC_0238_zpsbdf41c1a.jpg.html)

http://i1009.photobucket.com/albums/af219/swagman001/toothed%20foreplane/DSC_0239_zpsd05d64ca.jpg (http://s1009.photobucket.com/user/swagman001/media/toothed%20foreplane/DSC_0239_zpsd05d64ca.jpg.html)

[Bill Dindner]

I am loving this thread, certainly gone off the deep end. Just to summarize, probably more expensive and annoying the manufacture than other steels?

Personally, I would pay a premium (around $100 USD) for stainless, but thats just me.

[Vincent Tai]

​Definitely more expensive and annoying to the manufacturer. From casting it to the machining of it. It isn't easily casted and you need castings to do any sort of larger production work otherwise you'll be looking for someone like Holtey who makes a batch of 40 stainless with peened joints and thats it. I would expect much much higher premium then 100$. The ones we see are stuff from Karl Holtey and BCTW. I suppose for some people a stainless steel plane could pay off in the long run but I doubt the demand would ever rise to the point where it would be a common option from Veritas or LN.

[Brian Holcombe]

I would not take stainless even at the same price, it’s just not the best material for the application. For small planes you can buy them in bronze already. Cast iron and cast bronze have a record of proven stability over time.