Expanding

[mike wallis]

Hello all. After nearly 15 years of using only laser engravers we are considering going with a color option to offer our customers. The problem is that I don't know much about the color printing industry but am hoping you guys could give some insight.
We are wanting to print color on panels up to 16X20". The material to print on would likely be wood, metal and acrylic panels. If sublimated we would use sublimated wood and metal panels. UV resistant would be a must as well. I see there is a couple of different types of printing types, sublimation and direct to material printing (If that is even the name). If possible I would love to heard any feedback of best solutions, experiences, equipment, and pluses/minuses of the different types of printing.

Thanks in advance for any feedback!

Mike Wallis

[Ross Moshinsky]

Sublimation won't work for you. It's not good for wood or acrylic.

You have two main options:

1. Direct to substrate printing. A lot of benefits. The main downside is the cost and sometimes they can be a bit on the slower side.

2. Large format printing. Lower cost and more flexible but the downside is having to mount everything to your substrate.

Based on your post, I'd say you want a direct to substrate setup. You're probably looking at somewhere around $20k.

[mike wallis]

Thanks Ross! This very valuable feedback. Question if we stick to sublimatable items such as the JDS Maple photo panels and their sublimatable metal panels would this be a good solution for sublimation or is it still better to go with Direct to substrate printing, Large format printing?

[Mike Null]

I agree with Ross but I think you may be looking at more money for a good UV printer such as a Mimaki. But you get the ability to really widen your horizons with product offerings.

[Ross Moshinsky]

The biggest issue with sublimation is you need a special coating on the goods to make it work. This is a two fold issue. One, it limits what you can print on by a lot. Two, I've found huge quality control issues with special sublimation products. Hardboard, fpr and aluminum is great. Everything else is very hit or miss.

Honestly you should really skip everything else and zero in on direct to substrate printing. It's what you're going to want and the prices are starting to get to a level where they are small business friendly.

[mike wallis]

Thank you, looks like the DTS is the way to go. Excluding the printer cost what is the typical cost per square inch to print with a direct to substrate printer? Ross you had mentioned the speeds a a little slower to, do you have a rough idea in time printing on a 12X18 area?

[Mike Null]

Mike
Unless you've done your research and you're satisfied that's what you want, take a hard look at other brands. While you're looking, see if you can get one that'll do cylindrical stuff.

[mike wallis]

Mike
Unless you've done your research and you're satisfied that's what you want, take a hard look at other brands. While you're looking, see if you can get one that'll do cylindrical stuff.

Thanks Mike. I've just begun looking, what are some of the top brands to research?

[Scott Shepherd]

Mimaki, Roland, Mutoh.

What's your plan? A UV printer is ink that's cured by UV light, not always meant for UV protection, like being outdoors. I've seen some pretty large fails from UV printed items that went outside. The ink has to be made for outside use and a lot of the smaller machine's inks are not. Our Mimaki is a very good machine but it has 4 printheads and they are $3,000 each, meaning if you have a crash or you do something stupid like not doing the daily maintenance and ink cures inside a print head, you're looking at $4000 to replace one head, or a crash that damages 4 print heads could cost you $15,000 to have repaired.

However, our machine prints white, clear, and primer. It prints twice as fast as the Roland we looked at when we were shopping for one.

They aren't cheap and they do require attention. Ink is expensive as well.

[mike wallis]

Mimaki, Roland, Mutoh.

What's your plan? A UV printer is ink that's cured by UV light, not always meant for UV protection, like being outdoors. I've seen some pretty large fails from UV printed items that went outside. The ink has to be made for outside use and a lot of the smaller machine's inks are not. Our Mimaki is a very good machine but it has 4 printheads and they are $3,000 each, meaning if you have a crash or you do something stupid like not doing the daily maintenance and ink cures inside a print head, you're looking at $4000 to replace one head, or a crash that damages 4 print heads could cost you $15,000 to have repaired.

However, our machine prints white, clear, and primer. It prints twice as fast as the Roland we looked at when we were shopping for one.

They aren't cheap and they do require attention. Ink is expensive as well.

Hello Scott,
Thank for the input. That's a good point on not necessarily being UV resistant. We would like it to have some UV resistance/longevity but would NOT sell the product as outdoor recommended.
What is the typical cost to print per square inch on a UV Printer?

[Scott Shepherd]

I have no idea Mike. I used to know that number but it's never played a role in us quoting work. I'd suspect less than .50 cents per sq. ft.

[Glen Monaghan]

Sublimation won't work for you. It's not good for wood or acrylic.

I don't use sublimation and don't know all the ins and outs of it, but I recall seeing some intermediate sublimation methods that can be applied to non-coated substrates such as wood and acrylic, so maybe sublimation isn't entirely out of the question.


Based on your post, I'd say you want a direct to substrate setup. You're probably looking at somewhere around $20k.

I think you are underestimating the cost by at least half for what the OP said he wants to print.

[Scott Shepherd]

I think you are underestimating the cost by at least half for what the OP said he wants to print.

I think the original cost on our Mimaki was $65,000 and it prints 16 1/2" x 24". They have come down a lot. I think the same level machine is in the $40's now. Still not cheap.

[Ross Moshinsky]

I don't use sublimation and don't know all the ins and outs of it, but I recall seeing some intermediate sublimation methods that can be applied to non-coated substrates such as wood and acrylic, so maybe sublimation isn't entirely out of the question.

I think you are underestimating the cost by at least half for what the OP said he wants to print.

There's a better than decent chance I'm not correctly remembering the pricing for direct to sub printers.

I can say with very high confidence that if you want to do wood and acrylic, sublimation is not the way to go. The coating is very hit or miss. I did a 200 piece acrylic job a few years ago and the reject rate was huge. The coating was absolutely terrible between finding little black hairs in the coating, tons of pin holes, and it burning up. I've found this consistently over the years with sub coating applied to products. It's also not like it gets better over time. I used to do jobs with King Coat glass 6-7 years ago and the product was fine. Last time I tried to do a job with it, the coating was horrible. I had to switch to another product.

Sublimation is great. We do a lot of it. I've just found quality control can be very hit or miss on a lot of products. If you're trying to put out a solid, consistent product without flaws, it becomes a major issue.

[mike wallis]

There's a better than decent chance I'm not correctly remembering the pricing for direct to sub printers.

I can say with very high confidence that if you want to do wood and acrylic, sublimation is not the way to go. The coating is very hit or miss. I did a 200 piece acrylic job a few years ago and the reject rate was huge. The coating was absolutely terrible between finding little black hairs in the coating, tons of pin holes, and it burning up. I've found this consistently over the years with sub coating applied to products. It's also not like it gets better over time. I used to do jobs with King Coat glass 6-7 years ago and the product was fine. Last time I tried to do a job with it, the coating was horrible. I had to switch to another product.

Sublimation is great. We do a lot of it. I've just found quality control can be very hit or miss on a lot of products. If you're trying to put out a solid, consistent product without flaws, it becomes a major issue.

That makes sense on the coating. Sounds like if you get a company that put out a good coating it could work. Sublimation is very enticing as it's inexpensive to get into but I don't want to redo 1 out of 5 panels (If it's the norm). Do you have any experience with the ChromaLuxe Maple photo panels and sublimation? If so hows their coating?