Byrd or Hermance 16" head?

[Mark Gibney]

I'm looking at Byrd and Hermance to get a replacement head for my 16" jointer.

I can read a lot about Byrd from older posts, but very little about Hermance.
So it's difficult to get a feel for which might be better, if in fact one is better.

The only downside I've read about Byrd is that because they are so well regarded that with the number of orders they have that they can sometimes take a while to get the head to you.

Byrd cutters are apparently slightly cambered, the Hermance are straight. Is this right? And does it make a difference?

A Hermance head has fewer cutters - again, is this the case, and what does this mean in use?

As far as I know both companies mill the heads here in the US. True or false?

thanks, Mark

[Darcy Warner]

I use Hermance. They use the easiest to find and cheapest inserts, there were 208 inserts in the last 28" head I had made. It's not because Byrd is well regarded, it's because their focus is pounding out heads for the most common machines, little lunchbox planers, the generic Asian 8 to 12" machines etc.

Hermance service is great, heads are balanced and come with specs from that.

Last I checked it was 10 months to get a custom Byrd head, it's about 5 weeks from hermance.

[brent stanley]

I'm looking at Byrd and Hermance to get a replacement head for my 16" jointer.

I can read a lot about Byrd from older posts, but very little about Hermance.
So it's difficult to get a feel for which might be better, if in fact one is better.

The only downside I've read about Byrd is that because they are so well regarded that with the number of orders they have that they can sometimes take a while to get the head to you.

Byrd cutters are apparently slightly cambered, the Hermance are straight. Is this right? And does it make a difference?

A Hermance head has fewer cutters - again, is this the case, and what does this mean in use?

As far as I know both companies mill the heads here in the US. True or false?

thanks, Mark

They both use the radiused cutters.....you need to with a shear orientation. Byrd of course makes tons of the heads and thus the inserts so There's an economy of scale there. Based on the numbers I've seen Hermance is always more money, but the quotes are free so worth asking. The Hermance looks like it supports the cutter more than the perched style cutter mount on the Byrd heads, but I don't break cutters on my Byrd heads so It's kinda moot. I wonder if the Hermance would be better on wider machines because it evacuates chips in two directions? Shouldn't matter if you have good extraction though.

B

[Darcy Warner]

They both use the radiused cutters.....you need to with a shear orientation. Byrd of course makes tons of the heads and thus the inserts so There's an economy of scale there. Based on the numbers I've seen Hermance is always more money, but the quotes are free so worth asking. The Hermance looks like it supports the cutter more than the perched style cutter mount on the Byrd heads, but I don't break cutters on my Byrd heads so It's kinda moot. I wonder if the Hermance would be better on wider machines because it evacuates chips in two directions? Shouldn't matter if you have good extraction though.

B

Hermance uses a 15x15mm straight edge insert.

I have had quotes from both and the price difference was minimal, I am willing to pay a bit extra to get a head 9 months quicker.

The only reason Byrd takes so long is because they only care about pumping out normal selling inventory, thus custom stuff gets pushed back.

Hermance is designed for each application.
Plus I hate the stupid perched cutters on the shelix.

[Wayne Lomman]

The Hermance design is inherently better than the Byrd design and our shop makes tooling as well as using it. I have noted with interest that most complaints about finish quality off the planer relate to Byrd style heads.

Inserts of all types can be bought anywhere. Search the online markets and you get them at clearance sales for a fraction of the cost from dealers/manufacturers. Cheers

[brent stanley]

Hermance uses a 15x15mm straight edge insert.

I have had quotes from both and the price difference was minimal, I am willing to pay a bit extra to get a head 9 months quicker.

The only reason Byrd takes so long is because they only care about pumping out normal selling inventory, thus custom stuff gets pushed back.

Hermance is designed for each application.
Plus I hate the stupid perched cutters on the shelix.

So they're a shear cut without a radiused cutter? How does that work? They LOOK radiused, but I haven't seen one in person in a while.

I think it was on another forum, but the price difference was like $1000 for a 16" head.

I expect the difference would be largest if it was for a machine Byrd already made a head for.

I don't like the perched cutters either.

B

[brent stanley]

I'm looking at Byrd and Hermance to get a replacement head for my 16" jointer.

I can read a lot about Byrd from older posts, but very little about Hermance.
So it's difficult to get a feel for which might be better, if in fact one is better.

The only downside I've read about Byrd is that because they are so well regarded that with the number of orders they have that they can sometimes take a while to get the head to you.

Byrd cutters are apparently slightly cambered, the Hermance are straight. Is this right? And does it make a difference?

A Hermance head has fewer cutters - again, is this the case, and what does this mean in use?

As far as I know both companies mill the heads here in the US. True or false?

thanks, Mark

Here's the link to the Hermance cutters: http://www.hermance.com/Industrial/HelixHead-Cutterheads/Carbide-Insert-Knives

The R=150 refers to the radius of the cutter edge, and they're the same size as the Byrd head, but with a larger radius. This would mean the cutters are arranged on less of a shear angle (smaller shear angle =bigger radius) which in turn explains why they say they are optimizing for as few cutters as possible on the head. The less the shear angle it is, the more coverage each cutter has. Some grain conditions may benefit from the higher shear angle.

[peter gagliardi]

I researched this a couple years ago for one of my Greenlee planers. There is no doubt in my mind that the Hermance is the more precise, and better engineered head. However, my project has been mothballed for now.
The pricing I got then was very competitive- maybe actually less than the Byrd. I think it was around $150.00 per lineal cutting inch.
You don’t have to be very bright to see the Hermance’s superior design, and that is what I would buy when I get around to the restoration.

[Darcy Warner]

So they're a shear cut without a radiused cutter? How does that work? They LOOK radiused, but I haven't seen one in person in a while.

I think it was on another forum, but the price difference was like $1000 for a 16" head.

I expect the difference would be largest if it was for a machine Byrd already made a head for.

I don't like the perched cutters either.

B

The difference in cost was like 200 bucks more for a 16" DD jointer from hermance.

I would not trust byrds drawings they have, I have seen two jointers, a few years apart with many differences between heads. Byrd wants the entire head and motor assembly (if direct drive) no way I am shipping a hard to replace motor and hope they dont loose anything for 10 months.

I have installed several thousand hermance inserts, to my eye I cant even tell they have a radius.

I thought I was told they were straight, I know they are supposed to be one of the most common sizes out there.

[Darcy Warner]

394762394763

One on a 16" DD jointer, one on a 73cm planer

[brent stanley]

I researched this a couple years ago for one of my Greenlee planers. There is no doubt in my mind that the Hermance is the more precise, and better engineered head. However, my project has been mothballed for now.
The pricing I got then was very competitive- maybe actually less than the Byrd. I think it was around $150.00 per lineal cutting inch.
You don’t have to be very bright to see the Hermance’s superior design, and that is what I would buy when I get around to the restoration.

I like the idea of the solid mass of cutterhead behind the cutter, but it's more machining to remove it (to create the "perched" style) and Byrd chooses to do it anyway. Wonder why? The Hermance heads look way sexier but to evaluate precision of machining, you'd need to do more than look at the marketing pics. Some of their heads use a chevron arrangement of cutters, while others don't. Wonder why.

Byrd's custom rates must be really high. I bought an 8" head for a jointer and I think it was $500CAN, and a 14" planer head for $1700CAN, so way less than $150USD per inch. They may not really be interested in the custom market and aren't trying to be aggressive in their pricing. I'm not impressed with their customer service. Asked them about some shaper tooling and never heard back from them after the first back and forth!

The thing with all these heads that use the same cutters across their product line.....there's always going to be a compromise because the cutter radius is only perfect for certain shear angle/head radius combinations. The scalloping will be more or less as you deviate from that perfect scenario.

[brent stanley]

394762394763

One on a 16" DD jointer, one on a 73cm planer

Did they explain to you why they use "V" pattern sometimes and not others? Is the V pattern to help direct towards a dust port in the middle of the head in a planer?

[Jim Andrew]

Fewer cutters would mean less of a load on the machine. Notice Grizzly has a line of heads with fewer cutters, but more money.

[David Kumm]

I'm also curious as to what machine the head is going on. I'd be more apt to spend for a planer head than a jointer but am also wondering if the Byrd style on a large diameter head could be more dangerous on a jointer due to distance from the lips to the head. I understand replacing a head on an old machine with a damaged one but not a machine with a good knife head. Dave

[Darcy Warner]

Did they explain to you why they use "V" pattern sometimes and not others? Is the V pattern to help direct towards a dust port in the middle of the head in a planer?

Yes, the planer has a center DC hook up, it's to direct chips to the middle, also helix style heads will blow out the right side of the lumber on certain species. Really pronounced with the Newman heads.

[Darcy Warner]

I'm also curious as to what machine the head is going on. I'd be more apt to spend for a planer head than a jointer but am also wondering if the Byrd style on a large diameter head could be more dangerous on a jointer due to distance from the lips to the head. I understand replacing a head on an old machine with a damaged one but not a machine with a good knife head. Dave

I run both, but they are so much quieter than my 4 knife 36" buss 44.

I have a pile of perfectly good straight knife heads.

[brent stanley]

I'm also curious as to what machine the head is going on. I'd be more apt to spend for a planer head than a jointer but am also wondering if the Byrd style on a large diameter head could be more dangerous on a jointer due to distance from the lips to the head. I understand replacing a head on an old machine with a damaged one but not a machine with a good knife head. Dave

I think that's the biggest problem with the Byrd heads....they are nowhere near chip limiting. I think the new Felder heads are but I'm not sure. The Hermance heads and some of the other ones look better, but I'm not sure if they would satisfy the requirements to be MAN rated. Like you say, no big deal on a planer, but on a jointer....

[peter gagliardi]

It has been a long time since I looked at a Byrd head, but my memory tells me that the “perched” squares were not machined out of the solid head, but rather welded on.
I might be wrong, but someone here can surely verify this.

[Martin Wasner]

It has been a long time since I looked at a Byrd head, but my memory tells me that the “perched” squares were not machined out of the solid head, but rather welded on.
I might be wrong, but someone here can surely verify this.

I have no clue who does what, but that doesn't seem very cost effective compared to loading a billet and a program into a cnc and walking away.

[brent stanley]

I have no clue who does what, but that doesn't seem very cost effective compared to loading a billet and a program into a cnc and walking away.

That's what Byrd does, they aren't welded on! They CNC mill them out of solid stock.

[Jeff Bartley]

394762394763

One on a 16" DD jointer, one on a 73cm planer

Those sure are good looking! I really like the idea of the chevron for center directed dust collection.

[Joe Jensen]

I've been a user and fan of Byrd heads for a long time. I put one in my 8" PM60 jointer, 12" PM100 planer, and now in an SCMI 12" Jointer. Having said that if doing another upgrade it would be a Hermance.

[brent stanley]

I've been a user and fan of Byrd heads for a long time. I put one in my 8" PM60 jointer, 12" PM100 planer, and now in an SCMI 12" Jointer. Having said that if doing another upgrade it would be a Hermance.
Does Felder offer their proprietary head for sale for other machines? Is it MAN rated? If so that would probably be the best head. What is the radius on the tips?

It would be interesting to see the performance difference in wild grain where the Byrd has a greater shear angle.

[Jery Madigan]

I ran across a site where the guy tested the Byrd and Chevron and kept the Byrd. sorry, can't remember where it was.

I have a Hammer a3-31 with a Byrd head and I get almost no chips or dust that my dust collector doesn't get.

[Joe Jensen]

Does Felder offer their proprietary head for sale for other machines? Is it MAN rated? If so that would probably be the best head. What is the radius on the tips?

It would be interesting to see the performance difference in wild grain where the Byrd has a greater shear angle.

Not sure, the Martin head looks like a Hermance

[brent stanley]

Not sure, the Martin head looks like a Hermance

Would you mind asking your Felder colleagues if they plan on offering the head as an after-market/retrofit option for non-Felder machines? It would be nice to know if it can be on the list of heads to consider. Does Felder make the head themselves or is it farmed out? Could you share the shear angle?

Thanks Joe,

B

[Joe Jensen]

Would you mind asking your Felder colleagues if they plan on offering the head as an after-market/retrofit option for non-Felder machines? It would be nice to know if it can be on the list of heads to consider. Does Felder make the head themselves or is it farmed out? Could you share the shear angle?

Thanks Joe,

B

Sorry for confusion, I am just a customer, I don't work for Felder...joe

[brent stanley]

Sorry for confusion, I am just a customer, I don't work for Felder...joe

Oh sorry Joe, your Avatar looks very official! Rod?

B