True coplaner bandsaw wheel adjustment?

[Bill Space]

Hi,

It seems that having bandsaw wheels coplaner is something bandsaw owners strive for. Makes sense to me.

But what I wonder about is the method for checking if the wheels truly coplaner. I could be wrong, but it seems like every procedure I read only checks the wheels on one side if the axles. So while the straight edge might contact the wheels at four points, the wheels could still have some twist, that would not be apparent unless the straight edge was also used on the wheels at the opposite side of the axles.

With my particular bandsaw, a Davis and Wells 20”, it is possible to adjust things so the wheels are showing coplaner when the straight edge is positioned both in front and behind the axles.

But I understand many bandsaws do not have this adjustability.

So, is it the common procedure just to check for coplaner just on one side of the axles?

Just curious more than anything really. Do you guys check the wheels on both sides of the axles when setting the wheels coplaner? I believe I read that if there is some twist, the fix in most bandsaws would require machining.

I do know that crowing the tires will cause the blade to run well even if the wheels are not coplaner. I know this because I changed the bearings on my saw, and the blade ran very well before I set the wheels coplaner. But I think using the crown on the tires, or wheel tilt, probably stresses the blade a bit and may shorten its life.

This is is an educational question on my behalf.

All experience and opinions greatly appreciated!

[Van Huskey]

Hi,

It seems that having bandsaw wheels coplaner is something bandsaw owners strive for. Makes sense to me.


The need for coplanar bandsaws wheels is a myth.

[Bill Space]

Interesting, but if not coplaner wouldn’t stresses be introduced into the blade which would not be beneficial to blade longevity?

What could the advantage be of not having the wheels coplaner?

This is is a learning experience for me.

Please explain more as to why the perceived need for having the wheels the wheels coplaner is a myth.

Having wheels coplaner seems seems logical to me. But the again, I am not Valcan...😀

(Not being Valcan I might not have spelled that right...ROFL)

[Van Huskey]

These comments apply to bandsaws with crowned wheels, flat tired wheels are a different discussion.

The forces introduced are so low compared to the other stresses and strains on a bandsaw blade that it makes no material difference in blade longevity.

If you check how far out of coplanar several new examples of the same bandsaw are you will find they are curiously very similar in their apparent misalignment and beyond curious it is indeed by design, verified by two Taiwanese engineers that actually design bandsaws (and other machines) for the largest Taiwanese manufacturer of woodworking machines and echoed by Alex Snodgrass (though I don't always agree with him).

The two non-coplanar wheels produce an opposing force which prevents the tracking adjustment from being too touchy and helps hold the band in the proper position while it has to fight the pressures applied to it by sawing. If you spin the wheels and move the tracking on the upper wheel back and forth and watch the lower wheel you will see it move ever so slightly so as to be in constant opposition to the upper wheel, it takes very little movement to accomplish this so it can be mistaken for not moving. If you make the wheels perfectly coplanar the blade has to move much further on the lower wheel to provide the necessary opposing force, the tracking becomes much more touchy and easier to push the blade off-kilter which forces the saw to rely more on the guides just to keep the blade on the wheels.

When one moves the wheels into coplanar alignment they experience an increase in control and responsiveness of the tracking adjustment BUT what they have also done is reduce the saws ability to control the blade. It is like setting a cars camber and toe-in to zero simply because it is "logical" for a cars front wheels to be coplaner, trust me you don't want to try to drive that car at highway speeds.

[Robert Hazelwood]

That's a good explanation Van. Makes sense but I have never quite seen it articulated. I once pulled out all of the stops on my old Rikon 10" saw and got the wheels perfectly coplanar, and it really did get very difficult to track. If perfectly positioned it would stay put, but if it was a little off it would gradually start to come off the wheel unless the guides were set. Much more tedious to track than when the wheels were in the factory setting (decidedly not coplanar).

With my current saw I haven't messed with the factory wheel alignment. I just center the blade on the upper wheel, ignore the bottom wheel (it sits a bit forward on the lower wheel), then align the table and fence to the blade.

So to the OP I would recommend not going down the coplanar rabbit hole. On the other hand, crowned vs flat tires might be a more interesting topic if you want to run wide blades on the saw.

[Frank Pratt]

The first thing I did when I got my 14" Rikon was to get the wheels coplanar. Ugg, It took hours to get just right & then when I ran the saw it shredded the belt because the drive pulleys were then way out of alignment. More hours to get that sorted. The ordeal made me hate the saw & I didn't even want to look at it. The story has a happy ending though, because it now tracks well & rips wide stock without blade drift. But if I was to do it again, I'd not do anything to make those wheels coplanar.

Van explained the physics of it very well, I just wish I'd read that a few years ago.

[John TenEyck]

Always a contrarian I guess, but my 14" Delta would not track for beans until I adjusted the wheels to be coplaner. New blade, tilt adjustments, you name it, nothing would get that saw to cut straight and parallel with the miter slot until I adjusted the wheels to be coplaner. And to the OP's question, I had to pivot the upper frame casting a little in order to get the wheels to be in alignment on both sides of the axle. The saw cuts beautifully straight now. Changing blades couldn't be mush easier; just set them on the center of the upper wheel and they generally cut straight with only a minor tweak to the tilt so the cut line is parallel with the miter slot.

Under tension the blade rides a little forward of center on the lower wheel. This is how it counteracts the tilting of the upper wheel and maintains stability. I've had no issues with the blade wanting to run off the wheels. My two cents.

John

[John K Jordan]

Always a contrarian I guess, but my 14" Delta would not track for beans until I adjusted the wheels to be coplaner.

Same here. I didn't love my 14" Delta with a riser block until I tuned it as per Duginske. I also bought a tension gauge to remove that variable from the guess list. (the digital caliper method you described here would also have worked: http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?250388-Bandsaw-blade-tension&p=2640833#post2640833)

Both of these subjects will always be controversial, possibly since different people have different experience with different saws. Those who preach otherwise often imply their gospel is universal. My experience is otherwise.

In my case, the adjustments changed the saw from a frustration to a joy. I could consistently resaw 12" boards afterwards. I also checked my larger Rikon when new and it was almost perfect, needing only a minor adjustment of the lower wheel (a 4-bolt axle alignment mechanism is built in.)

I'd say try the bandsaw as delivered, following all instructions in the manual. If unsatisfied, try adjusting it.

JKJ

[Van Huskey]

Always a contrarian I guess, but my 14" Delta would not track for beans until I adjusted the wheels to be coplaner. New blade, tilt adjustments, you name it, nothing would get that saw to cut straight and parallel with the miter slot until I adjusted the wheels to be coplaner. And to the OP's question, I had to pivot the upper frame casting a little in order to get the wheels to be in alignment on both sides of the axle. The saw cuts beautifully straight now. Changing blades couldn't be mush easier; just set them on the center of the upper wheel and they generally cut straight with only a minor tweak to the tilt so the cut line is parallel with the miter slot.

Under tension the blade rides a little forward of center on the lower wheel. This is how it counteracts the tilting of the upper wheel and maintains stability. I've had no issues with the blade wanting to run off the wheels. My two cents.

John

That's not being a contrarian unless you did it for the joy of disagreeing it is simply relaying your personal experience.

The Delta 14" saws bear a little extra discussion here since I am pretty sure they are the genesis of the whole coplanar revolution. The Delta saws are notoriously hard to adjust to coplanar and part of the reason so many of them get jacked up in the hands of hobbyists that read an article and tried to fix things that likely weren't broke. Many of us seem to love to fix the unbroken, I know it is one of my favorite pass times. My point being it isn't uncommon to acquire one that has been "fixed upon". One of the actual misnomers which I have perpetuated here is talking about coplanar WHEELS which really isn't what is or at least should be discussed. It is coplanar crowns that are actually the salient issue. All crowns are exactly in the center of the wheel.

So IME the Delta 14" saws due to the relatively high crown need about the least crown offset of any of the bandsaws. When the wheels are about as close to coplanar as one can reasonably get them there is still enough offset of the actual crowns to impart the necessary counterforces since the actual crowns almost always vary slightly from the top to bottom wheels.

Finally, let's look at it at the very base level. A blade is tracked on a bandsaw by tilting the upper wheel farther in and out of coplanar with the bottom wheel. One will not be operating a bandsaw with the wheels (crowns) perfectly coplanar*, the blade just won't be stable under any cutting pressure. The wheels (crowns) simply have to be close enough to coplanar to be within the tracking adjustment range. In the end, a bandsaw can be so far out from coplanar that it simply will not track (shows up first with wide blades) but that is rare unless the saw has been abused or improperly "adjusted".

*We can go off into the minutia of coplanar tracking where you are using the decreased radius on the tooth side of a wider blade (with set teeth)
in order to produce the counter force in order to track on perfectly coplanar crowns. But in the end, bandsaws are NOT designed to be run like that.


I do get that a LOT of people including a large contingent of authors and experts will disagree with me, however, everyone that claims this when I visited their shops they were running their blades with the wheels non-coplanar despite the fact they took the time to align the wheels at the vertical.

[Doug Hepler]

Bill

Your question was about the coplanarity of the back of the wheels. It looks like it got nullified and hijacked by a discussion of whether the faces should be coplanar. The actual mechanics of blade tracking, etc obviously depends on the rims of the wheels. Assuming the rim of each wheel is perpendicular to the face of the wheel, we use the faces as surrogates for the rims. We assume that the rims are "coplanar" (whatever the correct term would be) if the faces are coplanar. Therefore, to answer your question, the planarity of the backs of the wheels is irrelevant as long as we can use the front faces as a surrogate indicator for the rims.

As to whether the wheels should be coplanar, this is a "sharpening" question with many expert and other opinions on both sides but (AFAIK) no objective studies. I belong to the "coplanar" camp. My BS is the main power saw in my shop. The blade is perpendicular to the table in both directions (F/B. L/R) it does not drift (< 1/32" over 16"), it cuts the same whether the guides are raised to 12" or lowered to 1/2" and the guides need very little adjustment when I change blade widths. It was not easy to adjust the wheels on my Laguna 14-12 but IMO it was well worth the bother.

Doug

[Van Huskey]

Bill

Your question was about the coplanarity of the back of the wheels. It looks like it got nullified and hijacked by a discussion of whether the faces should be coplanar.

Doug

You are correct, I hijacked and didn't answer the question. The general instructions are to mount and tension the widest blade the saw will accept. Then use a straight edge placed near the center of the wheels and align the four edges.

[George Makra]

This video is from Carter Products with Alex Snodgrass conducting a bandsaw clinic and he covers co planar.
BTW Carter is top shelf when it comes to bandsaw products.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wGbZqWac0jU

[Randy Heinemann]

One of the "experts" on bandsaws that I trust completely, Alex Snodgrass from Carter, has stated for years that, He has always insisted that this particular issue is a non-issue and that it is not necessary (nor advisable) to attempt to significantly adjust the wheels. Further, he also says that, f you have to spend time making the wheels coplanar on a new bandsaw, there is something else wrong and the manufacturer should be contacted for warranty service. A long time ago I attempted to line up the wheels on my old Sears 12" saw. While it admittedly wasn't a good saw, the adjustments I made, although bringing the wheels closer to coplanar, made the saw perform worse. On my new Rikon, I have never even attempted it and the saw operates fine. There are other, more important adjustments to make to get good resaw results.

[Doug Hepler]

Well, this is fun. I have had to refine my thinking a bit (not always a fun exercise). Van made me realize that I did not state (or think about) my experience precisely. I see some wisdom in what he says, BUT (1) if coplanarity is not essential, how much variance is acceptable for a saw to cut straight? (2) I adjusted the bottom wheel of my saw until it was coplanar with the top wheel. I'm sure that it improved the performance of my saw. But then I tweaked the tracking knob until the saw tracked perfectly. Surely, when I tweaked it I took the wheels slightly out of coplanarity. So maybe both "camps" are correct. Maybe it is a matter of trial and error using the tracking knob to take the wheels out of coplanarity. But it has to start somewhere, such as having the wheels coplanar or nearly so.

Story: My new Laguna 14-12 saw would not track, The blade was not perpendicular to the table, front to back. I could not adjust the top wheel to make it so. My studies made me consider adjusting the planarity of the wheels. I had to make a special "U" shaped gauge to bridge the hardware that was in the way, There might have been a bit of error in that gauge. However, according to it the wheels were initially far from co-planar. I adjusted the top and bottom bolts on the bottom wheel until it was coplanar with the top wheel. I do not think I gave any thought to what plane the top wheel was in. (!?) It must have been nearly neutral.

I put a blade on it and adjusted the tracking knob until the gullets were just a hair in front of the crown. I did a few test cuts and tweaked the tracking knob until the saw cut straight. I have tweaked the tracking knob slightly when I have changed blades to a different width. The saw cuts straight.

Doug

[Bill Space]

Hello again!


Van replied: “The forces introduced are so low compared to the other stresses and strains on a bandsaw blade that it makes no material difference in blade longevity. “


I can see how this could be true, BUT wouldn’t the small twisting and bending forces also be constantly varying, which might over time “work harden” the blade, leading to a greater opportunity for breakage? Perhaps only a concern on expensive long life blades.


It seems to me that as the wheels move away from being coplaner (offset and tilt) the blade would feel more twist and bending action. I am certain the magnitude of these stresses would be much smaller than blade tension, but they would be continuous as long as the wheels were turning...


Van also mentioned that at least one manufacturer purposely offsets the wheels by design on their bandsaws. By chance I was looking at an old PDF copy of the Iturra Design catalog (2010) yesterday (lots of time on my hands being away from home) and happened to remember Mr. Iturra mentioning that several callers reporting that JET does this, and his disputing the desirability of doing this. Couldn’t help but think Van might have been one of the callers. :-)


The following insight by Van is especially interesting:


“When one moves the wheels into coplanar alignment they experience an increase in control and responsiveness of the tracking adjustment BUT what they have also done is reduce the saws ability to control the blade.”


I will have to digest this thought a bit. We accept increased tire wear from toe in on our automobiles as the price we pay for increases stability. Perhaps moving out of coplaner is a similar trade off...as Van suggests.


John T is the first person that has specifically commented on measuring for coplaner on both the front and back of the wheels.


“And to the OP's question, I had to pivot the upper frame casting a little in order to get the wheels to be in alignment on both sides of the axle.”


My saw is different but the net result is similar to John’s. In a post below Van verifies what I have seen written in procedures in various places, that one normally checks coplaner at the center of the wheels near the axles. I cannot see how doing this could give an indication of having, or not having, wheel twist. If there is twist by definition the wheels are not coplaner.


John also mentions that his blade runs slightly different on the bottom wheel with the wheels truly coplaner (or I guess very close to being so). Perhaps the wheel crowns are slightly offset, which would provide an affect similar to what Van describes that Taiwanese manufacturer doing.


I see in a following post Van mentions coplaner crowns.


In post #9 Van points out the following:


“One will not be operating a bandsaw with the wheels (crowns) perfectly coplanar*, the blade just won't be stable under any cutting pressure.”


This puzzles me. I believe John T above indicated that he gets good performance from his saw with the wheels running coplaner, without tilting the top wheel. Is this correct John?


Even if the top wheel is tilted, isn’t tracking still being determined by the wheel crowns? Granted tilting the top wheel can cause offset between the crowns, which Van says increases blade stability, due to the crowns setting up opposing forces(my words, not Van’s)


Doug H, I think you misunderstood my question. I meant measuring the same side of the wheels on both sides of the axle.


George M, I have watched the Snodgrass video several times. I remember he doesn’t care about blade position on the bottom wheel much, just adjusts tilt of the top wheel to get the bottom of the gullets on at the crown, more or less. I see Randy H explains this in more detail...


Doug H, what you did in post 14 sounds exactly like the Snodgrass method.


“I put a blade on it and adjusted the tracking knob until the gullets were just a hair in front of the crown. I did a few test cuts and tweaked the tracking knob until the saw cut straight. I have tweaked the tracking knob slightly when I have changed blades to a different width. The saw cuts straight. “


Thanks to all for the input so far, and especially to Van for sharing his vast knowledge and experience.


This is giving me plenty to think about in the extra free time I have, not being at home where the work is!


Bill

[Chris Parks]

I concur with the myth and raise you one. True co planer simply can't be done, it might be done at rest with no band on it but as soon as the tracking is moved all that unneeded work went out the window because the top wheel was moved. The top wheel will move as soon as tension is put on the band because it is meant to move.

[John TenEyck]

My experience with my 14" Delta is very much the same as yours, Doug. With all due respect to Mr. Snodgrass, if a saw will not cut straight, no matter how many adjustments you make or how many new blades you try, then something must be wrong. I do not accept that you should adjust the fence on your bandsaw to account for drift; that's just stupid. If that were the correct response then we should adjust the table to follow that drift, too, and I've never heard anyone say that. If you can't adjust your saw so that it cuts straight and parallel with the miter slot then something is wrong and requires a deeper dive. For me, it was the wheels. I had to shim out the upper wheel at least 3/16". I also had to pivot the upper casting several degrees in order to get the wheels in plane on both sides of the axels. I also had to slide the upper casting a little left/right in order to get the blade perpendicular with the table when viewed from the front so that the guides would stay centered over their full range of travel. I took the table off of my saw which made checking wheel alignment very simple with a straight edge. You have to let the top wheel tilt as needed in order to get the straightedge to line up on the flats of the front of both wheels, but that's a simple adjustment.

When I was done the saw behaved completely differently. It was easy to get a blade to run centered on the top wheel, and it cut like a dream; straight and parallel with the miter slot with only a little adjustment required of the tilt mechanism. Of course when you adjust the tilt of the upper wheel the wheels are no longer exactly coplaner, but that's the way bandsaws run. And aligning the wheels is the only way I can see that will get the blade to run perpendicular to the table when viewed from the side. That may not be important for resawing but it sure is if you use your saw to cut joinery.

When all else fails, check the wheel alignment.

John

[Bill Space]

Chris,

With my saw, the wheels are set coplaner and the blade tracks close to the center of the wheels top and bottom. No need to tilt the top wheel. So it seems coplaner operation really is possible.

Of course, as Van has said, perhaps there are reasons one would want to tilt the top wheel. For example, tilting the top wheel out of coplaner may increase blade stability. Something I learned in this thread.

I think it might be fairer to say “The need for bandsaw wheels to be perfectly coplaner is a myth.” But “perfectly coplaner“ is a contradiction of terms.

My revised take on the issue now is... Close to coplaner is good enough! (And might even be better) :)

Bill

[Chris Parks]

No, the wheel must tilt to change the tracking. If you hold the wheel with no band on it the wheel can be moved back and forth.

A mention was made of moving the table, in fact this is a good idea if you have a saw that has persistent tracking problems, lock the fence and adjust the table so the blade can be put in the centre of the wheel no matter what the blade size. Every band change can then just about be done by eye or if not it won't be a long way off.

[Rod Sheridan]

I've been out on a few service calls where the owner of a new band saw complained that the wheels weren't coplanar, to which I replied "good".

I then go through the saw setup, put a blade on it, adjust the tension, tracking and guides, make a couple test cuts, measure the results and have the customer sign the work order.

Some still complain that the wheels aren't coplanar and they need to be because they read it on the internet. I explain how to adjust the tracking, show them the section in the manual that illustrates where on the upper wheel the blade is supposed to be and ask them what is wrong with the resaw test.

Band saws are one of the most mis-understood machines I've seen.........Rod.

[Chris Parks]

Ain't that the truth. Try and explain that some BS's have flat wheels and they tell you it can't be so.

[Steve Demuth]

I think most people, when they think "bandsaw wheels .... coplanar" are really saying that the two circles defined by the center of the wheel rims need to be coplanar. As many have pointed out here, they seldom will be, and shouldn't be, for best blade tracking. If you go through the effort to so align them, as soon as you change the upper wheel tracking, you'll have removed what you just laboriously created.

That said, the bottom wheel bearings are adjustable for a reason. You do need the twist of the wheels to be essentially zero. That is, if you draw a line between the two wheel centers, and then draw perpendiculars to that line through the center of the wheel rims, those latter two lines need to be in the same plane - otherwise you're trying to force the blade to twist. Once you've got that part right, you're going to want some small angle between the plane of the lower wheel and the plane of the upper wheel for all the reasons articulated by others in their posts. You mostly get that from the tracking adjustment on the top wheel, but if things have been really boogered up along the way, you many need to adjust the lower as well to get tracking within the range of the top wheel. This does not induce blade twist but rather adjusts how the plane formed by the blade relates to the two semicircles of wheel rim that it rides - its tracking.

If you want to think in lumber terms, imagine a board whose four corners are the the four lines formed by where the blade meets the two wheel rims as it rides onto and off the wheels. You want that board to have no twist, but a slight bow (it can't have cup, since the wheels are rigid in the cup dimension).

[Bill Space]

No, the wheel must tilt to change the tracking. If you hold the wheel with no band on it the wheel can be moved back and forth .

Chris, not sure what your “No” was referring to. Granted if one wants to change the tracking, tilting the upper wheel is necessary. But if tracking is where it should be after the wheels are set coplaner, there should be no need to change anything, unless I am missing something.

In the case of my D & W 20” bandsaw, the top wheel can be twisted back and forth even with a tensioned blade on it. When released the wheel returns to its equilibrium position. I understand this design is unique.

Bill

[Bill Space]

...I then go through the saw setup, put a blade on it, adjust the tension, tracking and guides, make a couple test cuts, measure the results and have the customer sign the work order...

Rob,

I take it that the set set up you go through before putting the blade on the bandsaw has nothing to do with the position of the wheels?

[Bill Space]

Expanding on what Steve has said, when setting the wheels coplaner two things are accomplished. The first is that the wheels are in the same plane, but only until the tilt of the top wheel is changed. Then the wheels are no longer coplaner, obviously.

But all effort made to make the wheels coplaner is not totally lost when the top wheel is tilted. The relationship of the wheel axles with respect to twist does not change with top wheel tilt. So setting the wheels coplaner to begin with is not a total waste of time as some may think. It is actually a measurable way to ensure that the wheel axles are orienrated property to produce no twist between the wheels.

Does wheel twist between the wheels matter? Can’t quantify it myself. Buy intellectually it seems to me that no twist would be better than having twist.

[Bill Space]

The two non-coplanar wheels produce an opposing force which prevents the tracking adjustment
When one moves the wheels into coplanar alignment they experience an increase in control and responsiveness of the tracking adjustment BUT what they have also done is reduce the saws ability to control the blade. It is like setting a cars camber and toe-in to zero simply because it is "logical" for a cars front wheels to be coplaner, trust me you don't want to try to drive that car at highway speeds.

Van,

I am am going to prove my ability to over think things.

It looks to me that the bandsaw is more like a motorcycle than a car. No camber or toe in on a motorcycle. Just caster, which I am not sure relates to the bandsaw.

So I am not sure your analogy has the strength it first appeared to have...:)

Wheel tilt does come into into play when making a turn however...:D

Another question popped into my mind. I take it that the Taiwanese design is a “parallel planer” design, in other words, if the two planes the wheels find themselves in were moved so they became one, the top wheel tilt could be adjusted to make the wheels truly coplaner.

Or to put it another way, they start with the wheels coplaner and shift one so that it resides in its own plane that is parallel with the other wheel.

Is this his assumption Correct?

[Rod Sheridan]

Rob,

I take it that the set set up you go through before putting the blade on the bandsaw has nothing to do with the position of the wheels?

I've never seen a saw that cannot track and cut properly when properly setup. The saw comes from the factory with some offset, as the saw works 100% in that condition, I've never had to correct that "deficiency". I assume that since the saws have some factory calibrated offset, they're designed to work that way.

Now, if the blade tracking was really wonky, for example at the back of the left of the wheel and at the front on the right of the wheel, then I would certainly correct that, however I would never check for coplanar, or adjust that if the spindles were in alignment. It's only if the spindles weren't in alignment that I would do something about it.

From a field service perspective I'm certainly not going to start taking a new machine apart to correct a non existent problem. I have had customers who were worried that the wheels weren't coplanar and the blade tracked in different spots on the upper and lower wheels. My response to them is always "If the saw stops cutting properly, please call me, here's my business card".

Haven't had a call back.

Likewise I get customers complaining that our saws don't have glued on tires, when I ask them why that's a problem they state that they learned that on the internet. Once again I ask them to contact me when it becomes a problem, never heard back from anyone on that issue.

I really think that these issues are non problems, or they are problems on really low end saws, ours start at several thousand dollars and maybe once you're at a certain price point you don't have those issues?

40 years in industry and I've never seen any of the serious "band saw issues" you read about, including de-tensioning the blade after use.

This what I find are the top 3 saw complaints.

Number one saw issue..............Wrong blade for the task

Number two saw issue..............Blade tension too low

Number three saw issue............Customer has used the blade for 3 years and the saw doesn't cut straight any more :eek:

For such a simple machine it sure causes consternation unlike any other shop machine.................Regards, Rod.

[Chris Parks]

I've never seen a saw that cannot track and cut properly when properly setup. The saw comes from the factory with some offset, as the saw works 100% in that condition, I've never had to correct that "deficiency". I assume that since the saws have some factory calibrated offset, they're designed to work that way.

Now, if the blade tracking was really wonky, for example at the back of the left of the wheel and at the front on the right of the wheel, then I would certainly correct that, however I would never check for coplanar, or adjust that if the spindles were in alignment. It's only if the spindles weren't in alignment that I would do something about it.

From a field service perspective I'm certainly not going to start taking a new machine apart to correct a non existent problem. I have had customers who were worried that the wheels weren't coplanar and the blade tracked in different spots on the upper and lower wheels. My response to them is always "If the saw stops cutting properly, please call me, here's my business card".

Haven't had a call back.

Likewise I get customers complaining that our saws don't have glued on tires, when I ask them why that's a problem they state that they learned that on the internet. Once again I ask them to contact me when it becomes a problem, never heard back from anyone on that issue.

I really think that these issues are non problems, or they are problems on really low end saws, ours start at several thousand dollars and maybe once you're at a certain price point you don't have those issues?

40 years in industry and I've never seen any of the serious "band saw issues" you read about, including de-tensioning the blade after use.

This what I find are the top 3 saw complaints.

Number one saw issue..............Wrong blade for the task

Number two saw issue..............Blade tension too low

Number three saw issue............Customer has used the blade for 3 years and the saw doesn't cut straight any more :eek:

For such a simple machine it sure causes consternation unlike any other shop machine.................Regards, Rod.

That about wraps it up neatly Rod, I have owned and have at the moment expensive European saws and cheap low end Asian saws and they all do what BS's should do with no issues. Without being critical of Bill the OP I think the internet is a myth building machine of the first order when it comes to stuff like this. People looking for advice on why the BS won't do what it is supposed to hear about drift and coplaner and through no fault of their own think these issues exist and need major work to fix them like moving wheels etc.

[John TenEyck]

The arguments related to not needing to check wheel alignment may be valid for new machines. I bought a new Grizzly bandsaw a couple of years ago and didn't bother checking them, and the saw cuts beautifully. For what it's worth, the blade is dead perpendicular to the table when viewed from the side, so I don't know how the wheels could be anything other than in the same plane with the blade under tension. Anyway, many older machines have been used, abused and worn, like my 50 year old 14" Delta must have been. In those cases, when nothing else works to get the blade to cut straight and parallel with the miter slot, you have to start looking for the root of the problem. Whether or not the factory set the wheels coplaner or not is irrelevant if the saw no longer cuts straight and you've tried all the things so often cited above. And if putting them coplaner is "wrong" but the saw now cuts straight, I'm fine with that.

John

[Rod Sheridan]

You are correct John, if the saw doesn't work, then you correct it.

What I don't do is correct issues that aren't supported by performance of the saw..........Rod.

[Doug Hepler]

Bill said "Doug H, what you did in post 14 sounds exactly like the Snodgrass method."

Sorry, but that's not my point at all. I was attempting to find a middle ground in this push-pull of opinion. I believe that Snodgrass minimizes or dismisses the importance of coplanarity. I do not. I agreed that perfect coplanarity would not be the goal but that it might be a necessary starting point for some saws that are severely out of adjustment. Examples would be my story and the situation that John TenEyck described.

out

Doug

[Art Mann]

I have only owned two bandsaws - Rikon and more recently Laguna - but both of them work quite nicely with no coplanarity adjustment. That is true after changing blades many, many times on both of them. The Rikon upper and lower wheels have always been a little out of coplanar. My only advice is "if it ain't broke, don't fix it". If it worked well when it was new, don't start changing wheel alignment until you have exhausted all other options. The only useful measure of whether a bandsaw is set up correctly is the degree to which it cuts well. My experience has been that wheel alignment is not very important.

[Randy Heinemann]

My opinion is that there is no point in measuring whether the wheels are "coplanar" or not. Install the blade so the gullets of the the blade are centered on the top wheel (with crowned tires), put the correct amount of tension on the blade, set the guides, etc. properly, and the blade should track properly. I suppose that you can make other adjustments, but I've never found that was needed. So, the issue of how much out of "plane" the wheels are shouldn't really ever enter into the saw setup. If it does, there is most likely something non-fixable wrong with the bandsaw (or at least not easily fixable).

[John TenEyck]

Your comments are consistent with many others - all whom likely have never had a saw that wouldn't cut straight no matter following the owner's manual, or the advise given above. Only when you get a saw that won't cut right you either get motivated to look deeper or you get rid of the saw.

There was an earlier comment about how the wheels are set not being very important. Of course it is. One or more engineers made sure the saw was designed to whatever specs. they felt important and the manufacturing and QA followed to assure they were built to those specs. Assuming all was done correctly the buyer never has to worry about what those specs. were because the saw will cut straight doing nothing more than following the owner's manual - and the advise listed above. It's only when you get a saw that wasn't built right or has been seriously worn or abused do you realize that those won't solve the problem.

John

[Randy Heinemann]

It is absolutely true the alignment of the wheels is important, just not to the user when doing setup. If normal setup doesn't produce the result desired contacting the manufacturer is the best course of action. It is not likely that the user could determine how the wheels should be aligned for any individual manufacturer except by accident. Generally trying to align to some particular alignment only creates more problems unless the user has randomly somehow got it just right. I haven't yet been able to adjust the wheels to remedy a problem that existed. I've only made it worse.

[Edwin Santos]

I do not accept that you should adjust the fence on your bandsaw to account for drift; that's just stupid. If that were the correct response then we should adjust the table to follow that drift, too, and I've never heard anyone say that.

John

Hello John,
Have a look at this video from FWW and Michael Fortune and you will no longer be able to make your second statement above. Of course whether you agree with it or not will be your call.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vNdrkmx6ehI

I've had the privilege of taking a class with Michael Fortune and he really deserves to be called a master woodworker in every respect. Following his bandsaw tuning guidelines and sawing techniques has eliminated drift from my life and taken my bandsawing to a much higher level. This was despite my skepticism while he explained it.
Not trying to start a fight with the fans of co-planarity, just reporting that Michael's procedures worked very well for me.

Edwin

[Larry Frank]

The video is interesting and seems to work. There are several different approaches by "experts" which seem to work. Perhaps, there is not just one way to get a bandsaw to work.

[Bill Space]

This thread has given me a huge amount of food for thought! Thanks for all the input!


I originally posted the question because I am trying restore the old 20” Davis and Wells bandsaw I bought to the best operating condition I can. When I got it the tires were flat and the blade tracking terrible. So I am in the “fix it mode” rather that the “make a good saw better mode.”


So the first step was to crown the tires. Made an amazing difference. Many here might have left it at that. But since I was in the fix it mode, and not knowing how misadjusted the saw might be from factory-new setup, I began to consider what the saw might have been set up like from the factory. It seemed logical to me that the wheels would have been coplaner. So my mind told me setting wheels coplaner should be my next step. This saw design makes coplaner adjustment fairly easy, once you know the method.


This process sparked my interest in the theory behind bandsaw setup and adjustment. This thread has helped a lot. For example, It never occurred to me that a manufacturer might set their saws up with the wheels in parallel planes, offset by some amount.


I may have been giving too much thought about the adverse effects of running a bandsaw with wheels out of alignment, either due to tilting the top wheel intentionally, or because of twist between the wheels, or factory offset. Shifting the wheels out of coplaner almost certainly adds stresses to the blade during operation (as compared to having the wheels coplaner), but in practice this may be inconsequential.


At this point, the message I am getting here is to move on to cutting wood, and to evaluate performance by the results and then make further adjustments as needed. I think setting the wheels on this saw coplaner was the right thing to do in my case, all things considered.


I have an old 18” light duty Grizzly saw that works well for what I use it for. Am I going to worry about checking the wheels for coplaner on that saw? Nope! :D


Bill

[John TenEyck]

Hello John,
Have a look at this video from FWW and Michael Fortune and you will no longer be able to make your second statement above. Of course whether you agree with it or not will be your call.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vNdrkmx6ehI

I've had the privilege of taking a class with Michael Fortune and he really deserves to be called a master woodworker in every respect. Following his bandsaw tuning guidelines and sawing techniques has eliminated drift from my life and taken my bandsawing to a much higher level. This was despite my skepticism while he explained it.
Not trying to start a fight with the fans of co-planarity, just reporting that Michael's procedures worked very well for me.

Edwin


You got me, Edwin. Yes, of course you have to adjust the table parallel with the blade, exactly once as Michael Fortune so perfectly explained. I had to do exactly that both with my old 14" Delta and also with my new Grizzly since I had to take the table off that one, along with a lot of other parts, to get it down into my basement shop. But it's a one time thing.


Hallelujah, Fortune as part of this process explains why adjusting for drift is completely unnecessary. I'm sure the companies that make the Driftmaster type fences were very pleased! But he's absolutely right. If you want to use the miter slot you have to have a blade that cuts straight and parallel with the miter slot, and once you have that there's no need to skew the fence.

You'll note that Fortune never mentioned anything about wheel alignment, nor would he if the saw was new and/or in good operating condition. I'd be interested in his approach, however, if he had my 14" Delta in the condition I started with.

I would love to take a class with Michael. He is one of the writers I respect most.

John

[Chris Parks]

Following on from my mention of moving the table I made above it actually makes more sense when you think about it. Set the blades the same each time and if the table is aligned to the blades then the fence will line up with minimal need to adjust tracking. if you follow the Snodgrass method the table gets removed for each blade change so setting the table in one position would not be possible.

[John TenEyck]

Bill, you might find this interesting. I just looked at the owner's manual for my G0636X 17" bandsaw. There is a whole section about "Wheel Alignment" which starts out "Wheel alignment is one of the most critical factors for optimal performance from your bandsaw. Heat, vibration, wandering, blade wear, tire wear and overall bandsaw wear are considerably decreased when the wheels are properly aligned, or "coplaner" Coplaner wheels automatically track the blade by balancing it on the crown of the wheel. This is known as coplanar tracking."

The chapter then goes on to show you how to check the wheels, using a simple wooden gage, and how to adjust the wheels if they are not coplanar.

I rest my case.

John

[Bill Space]

John and all,

i downloaded the manual for John’s saw and see two things I find interesting.

The first is that apparently all Taiwanese manufacturers of bandsaws do not offset the wheels as a manufacturing practice. The Grizzly manual does specifically call out making the wheels coplaner.

The second was that they specify measuring wheel position at points both in front and behind the axles.

This is is in agreement with my initial intuition, but still does not dispute the fact that some amount of mis alignment may be inconsequential.

I am becoming more relaxed as to how precise bandsaws need to be adjusted. But I am still happy to see the Grizzly procedure is about identical with my initial thinking. ��

[John TenEyck]

Yes, the wheels need to be precisely aligned, not just with relation to their faces (coplaner) but also at the midpoint of their diameter so that the blade runs plumb with respect to the table. This is the only way that I know of that will get the blade running perpendicular to the table when viewed from both the front and side. Perpendicular from the front is key to being able to adjust the blade guides up and down without rubbing the blade on one side or the other. From the side is key to being able to cut tenon shoulders, etc.

Many folks seem to believe that a bandsaw is an inherently imprecise machine compared to a tablesaw, for example. While it's true you can't take off a few thousandths like you can with a TS, a bandsaw can be tuned to cut very accurately, whether it comes from the factory that way or not.

IMHO you are wise to question what you read here or anywhere else, including this. Do your own testing. Draw your own conclusions. Then you'll know what's correct.

John

[John K Jordan]

IMHO you are wise to question what you read here or anywhere else, including this. Do your own testing. Draw your own conclusions. Then you'll know what's correct.


That should be on a banner at the top of every page on every forum on the internet!

[Rod Sheridan]

Many folks seem to believe that a bandsaw is an inherently imprecise machine compared to a tablesaw, for example. While it's true you can't take off a few thousandths like you can with a TS, a bandsaw can be tuned to cut very accurately, whether it comes from the factory that way or not.



John

Very true John, in the band saw seminar I host I make a bridle joint using the band saw only. The tenon isn't as smooth as one you make on the shaper however the fit is certainly accurate enough.

People are always amazed..............Rod.

[John Lanciani]

Many folks seem to believe that a bandsaw is an inherently imprecise machine compared to a tablesaw, for example. While it's true you can't take off a few thousandths like you can with a TS, a bandsaw can be tuned to cut very accurately, whether it comes from the factory that way or not.

IMHO you are wise to question what you read here or anywhere else, including this. Do your own testing. Draw your own conclusions. Then you'll know what's correct.

John

Amen. Nothing beats personal experience.

[Randy Heinemann]

https://sawmillcreek.org/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by John TenEyck https://sawmillcreek.org/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?p=2856410#post2856410)
IMHO you are wise to question what you read here or anywhere else, including this. Do your own testing. Draw your own conclusions. Then you'll know what's correct.


That should be on a banner at the top of every page on every forum on the internet!

Not only that, but read the Owners Manual. If it doesn't provide direction on wheel alignment, my guess would be that it isn't something that is needed and maybe shouldn't be messed with.

[Ted Phillips]

I've never seen a saw that cannot track and cut properly when properly setup. The saw comes from the factory with some offset, as the saw works 100% in that condition, I've never had to correct that "deficiency". I assume that since the saws have some factory calibrated offset, they're designed to work that way.

I'm with you on this, Rod!

[John TenEyck]

Following on from my mention of moving the table I made above it actually makes more sense when you think about it. Set the blades the same each time and if the table is aligned to the blades then the fence will line up with minimal need to adjust tracking. if you follow the Snodgrass method the table gets removed for each blade change so setting the table in one position would not be possible.


I can't believe anyone would recommend removing the table every time you change a blade. That makes no sense at all.

John

[Tom M King]

Northfield uses fishing line, and plumb bobs. I remember seeing a picture somewhere, but couldn't find it.

http://www.northfieldwoodworking.com/TechTips/FieldLevelRetargetingLowerWheel-QuillAssembly.pdf

[John TenEyck]

Northfield uses fishing line, and plumb bobs. I remember seeing a picture somewhere, but couldn't find it.

http://www.northfieldwoodworking.com/TechTips/FieldLevelRetargetingLowerWheel-QuillAssembly.pdf


They show the objective is to end up with the wheels coplaner.

Can someone show an owner's manual, manufacturer's drawing, tech. manual, etc., where a machine is intended to be set up with the wheels out of plane?

John

[Steve Demuth]

It is absolutely true the alignment of the wheels is important, just not to the user when doing setup. If normal setup doesn't produce the result desired contacting the manufacturer is the best course of action. It is not likely that the user could determine how the wheels should be aligned for any individual manufacturer except by accident. Generally trying to align to some particular alignment only creates more problems unless the user has randomly somehow got it just right. I haven't yet been able to adjust the wheels to remedy a problem that existed. I've only made it worse.

I would say that depends on your situation. A saw should, and most certainly do, come properly adjusted from the factory. But a used saw may or may not have had abuse, and even a new saw will on occasion not make the grade. My last one came out of the box with a slight wobble in the blade - about 10 thousands or so. I sure as heck wasn't going to ship the saw back for that if it wasn't an actual structural issue, so I adjusted the lower wheel to make it fully co-planar with the the top tracking adjusted to a central adjustment location. Problem solved. The physics of the blade isn't that hard - if the wheel planes have twist in them, the blade is going to wobble. If the wheels are not aligned properly top to bottom, the blade won't track, or won't be square to the table in the plane of the cut. Took me a bit over an hour to get the saw in trim. It would have take far longer just to get a factory rep on the phone.