Waterstones- thinking of finally getting a real set

[Matt Lau]

Hey everybody,

I pulled out my riff-raff waterstones last Thursday to hone the bevels on some surgical instruments after massive reshaping.
The whole thing felt very comfortable and relaxing...even if I have absolutely no idea what grit those stones were!

I'm thinking of getting a proper set of stones (yes, that sounds funny) to get my Japanese steel sharpened up.
I've been conversing with Stan Covington, and he recommends:
-diamond only for roughing
- start at 1000 grit
- go to 2000 grit (doesn't use it in field)
- then 6000 grit, possibly with a Nagura---good enough for most work
- then 10000 grit (in field) or Japanese Natural Finisher (in workshop)

I think he mostly uses King stones...but I feel like it's the user rather than the stones giving a great result.

Do you have a recommendation for a good set/series of stones, and a good place to buy them from?
Originally, i was thinking of buying Stu's recommended set...but it looks like he doesn't have the set available anymore.

-Matt

ps. For my mujingfang HSS torture steel, I still have the diamond plate + spyderco M + spyderco UF.
That system works...but isn't anywhere as rewarding feeling as good steel on good waterstones.

[Charles Bjorgen]

Stu’s Sigma Power ceramic set is still listed on his site. Still around $230.00. I had to poke around to find it. Here’s the link:
http://www.toolsfromjapan.com/store/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=335_404_403

[Dave Parkis]

I have that set and they are fantastic stoned

[Jim Koepke]

I have that set and they are fantastic stoned

How do they do when they are sober? :D

jtk

[Luke Dupont]

What is your "in the field" use case?

Also, what is your home setup? Unless you have a sink and running water, I highly recommend either getting "splash and go" type waterstones (possibly including Jnats), or go with some other type of stone like oilstones, diamond, or ceramic. Doubly true for field use, with the added recommendation that you get smaller stones (4"x 2" or 4" x 1.5" stones are adequate).

If Stan has made some recommendations though, I'd seriously look into those. You don't really need a huge number of stones. I generally only use 2-3 -- sometimes even just a single stone. Something in the 1-2k range and something in the 6-8k range should be sufficient, though if you're looking at Jnats or other natural stones, it's best not to think in terms of "grit": some stones can operate over a very wide range, whilst others operate more narrowly akin to synthetics.

For the field, you may want to carry a stone in the 400-1k range just in case you get any minor edge damage. I generally carry a hard (white) arkansas and a thin diamond plate, both pocket size. Sometimes I also carry a fine India and a hard (black) Arkansas, or, I forgo all of those and just carry my full sized vintage Washita, which, paired with a piece of leather to strop on, can do it all. You can likely find similar Jnats or combination splash and go synthetic waterstones.

I really dislike the presoaked synthetic waterstone thing, though. Too much prep time and way too much mess. Maybe if you don't mind carrying the Kitchen sink with you and have the luxury of one in your shop it's not so bad though.

[Osvaldo Cristo]

Disclaimer: I just started my experience with waterstones at the beginning of this year, so just a little more than a half year experience.

For many years I used only files and the classical method of glass plate and water sandpaper. Actually I used it exclusively for 30 years learned from daddy.

One year ago I decided to rethink most of my process and even replace some tools as well to purchase new ones. I made a complete upgrade in my small shop, the first serious one in 25 years. It included adding new ways to sharp tools.

I purchased Norton stones as I use Norton products for decades (they have a large manufacturing plant in my country). I decided I did not need anything bellow 1000 grit as I could use sandpaper for that eventual gross preparation, so I purchased a 1000 grit stone (not combined with any other grit because that coarse stone is expected to be consumed faster that finer ones), a combination 4000/8000 grit and (just in case) I also purchased a Sapton 2000 grit, also monolithic as I would expect lower grit are consumed faster.

I did not purchase a "leveling or flattening stone" as I always can use wet sandpaper on glass plate to do that or even a diamond plate (I also have).

It all looks great although I confess I used then just a few times, always with great results.

Good luck in your experience.

All the best,

[Warren West]

I think he mostly uses King stones...but I feel like it's the user rather than the stones giving a great result.

Think about that for a second and grasp what you are saying. If another man can do it, so can you.


ps. For my mujingfang HSS torture steel, I still have the diamond plate + spyderco M + spyderco UF.
That system works...but isn't anywhere as rewarding feeling as good steel on good waterstones.

So, are you into wood working or sharpening? Do you think the old timer's many here idolize gave a wit about the rewarding feeling sharpening or were more concerned about getting a sharp enough edge as quickly as possible to get on with wood working again.

I like the feel of water stones too, but from a pragmatic standpoint, they are a waste of time. Diamond and ceramic are less fussing about. Heck, oilstones and a strop are less fussing about as well.

Not picking on you Matt, but the sharpening ceremony here that some go through is absolutely laughable in there detail and steps, unless it's about the sharpening and not the woodworking. And I think the old timers would be laughing the hardest if they could see us now.

[Hasin Haroon]

Matt, my waterstone setup consists of a #1000, #4000 and #8000. The #1000 is a Sigma Power Select II, it cuts really fast (but obviously dishes a bit fast too, but much less than a King waterstone). The 4 and 8k are Bester/Imanishi Stones. They are more long wearing and don't need flattening as often. They all perform well on PM V-11, A2 and O1.

For rough reshaping, I don't think you can beat a diamond stone (or even better, hollow grind with a CBN wheel).

[Tony Leonard]

I use the Nortons too. My first experience with water stones was at a class and I was impressed. Been using them for several years (gosh, over ten now!) and have always been happy with them. I think mine are 1000, 4000, 8000. I flatten with a diamond plate. To qualify, I am not a sharpening guru. I really just wanted something practical and affordable. I don't even know what metal my chisels and plane irons are! I have never tried any of the newer stones. And i don't know all the microns, etc. I just don't see a reason to buy everything that comes along (plus I can't afford it!). I might be much happier with something else, who knows?!? It'd be nice if you could try out some before you commit. Perhaps you can find someone close by to let you have a go at theirs?

As I was typing this, I had to laugh at the irony...I'm a mechanical engineer! Yup.

Oh, I do own some oil stones (Woodcraft). I like to carve a little and I bought oil stones for carving gouges. They work real well too. I'm not so good at sharpening carving gouges, but the stones are good.

Tony

[Jim Koepke]

I'm not so good at sharpening carving gouges, but the stones are good.

Mary May gives some pointers on sharpening carving gouges at about 15 minutes in on this episode of The Woodwright's Shop:

https://www.pbs.org/video/carving-away-with-mary-may-tioglz/

jtk

[Andrew Seemann]

So, are you into wood working or sharpening? Do you think the old timer's many here idolize gave a wit about the rewarding feeling sharpening or were more concerned about getting a sharp enough edge as quickly as possible to get on with wood working again.

...the sharpening ceremony here that some go through is absolutely laughable in there detail and steps, unless it's about the sharpening and not the woodworking. And I think the old timers would be laughing the hardest if they could see us now.


Amen to that, brother. I hate sharpening.

A hollow grind on the wet grinder, 15 seconds on a 4000 grit water stone to set the cutting bevel, a couple seconds on the leather strop wheel because it seems to help; done. To touch up, 10-20 seconds on the 4000 stone, hit the strop wheel; done.

I could probably get the edge sharper, but I'm not convinced it matters after a couple minutes of using the tool. I also don't like the whole progressing-through-the-grits thing. I sharpen free hand, and the more stones you use, the easier it is to round the bevel.



For perspective, Tage Frid's sharpening routine from his books was a belt sander followed by a buffing wheel.

[Matt Lau]

Sorry. Wiped out from work enough to be dizzy once I get home.

The stones are for options.
I plan to have multiple approaches: quick and dirty (diamond and ceramic), and probably done (full set of stones).

If you asked me to flatten a blade, I could probably do it pretty fast...but it'll be gritty and not have the best finish.

I have never really has a full set of stones, and always scrounged. Some part of me longs to try to sharpen something as perfect as possible.

But yeah, I will have a ceramic stone and strop by the workbench for touch ups... probably

[Jim Koepke]

Having more stones than needed has never been one of my regrets.

Currently my buy button finger has been a little itchy about maybe getting another Arkansas stone or two, one soft and a surgical black.

There is also a lust for a finer water stone even though my 8000 grit seems to get things sharp enough.

Seeking the next level of sharpness is like a sickness. Similar to the sickness of gold fever experienced by seekers of gold.

jtk

[Vincent Tai]

Having more stones than needed has never been one of my regrets.

Currently my buy button finger has been a little itchy about maybe getting another Arkansas stone or two, one soft and a surgical black.

There is also a lust for a finer water stone even though my 8000 grit seems to get things sharp enough.

Seeking the next level of sharpness is like a sickness. Similar to the sickness of gold fever experienced by seekers of gold.

jtk

Yeah its a sickness that gets really really itchy sometimes for me. A finer water stone is always fun...

[Richard Jones]

Nothing wrong with King's, they will do the job, although some A2 blades are really hard (Hock). I set the bevel on those with a 140 Atoma, then switch to waterstones. I have an assortment, since I haven't had very good luck with sets. Seems like one or two of them always seem lacking............

Imanishi Latte 400
1200 Bester
2000 Gesshin
5000 Suehiro Rika (exceptional stone)
8000 Gesshin

This is the current lineup and is subject to change at a whim. There are many more.........

Honestly, I usually stop at the 5K, don't see a marked improvement for tools and knives at finer grits, unless it's for my AS kitchen knives. Then I'll go to 8K, 16K, then a koppa. Good luck in your search down the rabbit hole.......... As stated above, it's a sickness, but a good one!

[David Eisenhauer]

I am another one that uses Stu's Sigma (Power something or another) three stone set - 1,000#, 6,000# and 13,000#. They replaced an older King three stone set that I used many years ago and the xdetails escape me.

[Tom Bender]

Great sharpening thread. Not the usual sharp-sickness. It has dulled the feeling of inadequacy to find that I am in the middle of normal.

[Warren West]

Amen to that, brother. I hate sharpening.

A hollow grind on the wet grinder, 15 seconds on a 4000 grit water stone to set the cutting bevel, a couple seconds on the leather strop wheel because it seems to help; done. To touch up, 10-20 seconds on the 4000 stone, hit the strop wheel; done.

I could probably get the edge sharper, but I'm not convinced it matters after a couple minutes of using the tool. I also don't like the whole progressing-through-the-grits thing. I sharpen free hand, and the more stones you use, the easier it is to round the bevel.


For perspective, Tage Frid's sharpening routine from his books was a belt sander followed by a buffing wheel.

Who here can argue with Tage? Sadly I'm sure most know more about abrasive grits than he did, but where has that gotten them?

We have to remember that practical doesn't sell product. Of course we're going to see demos with 6 stones of varying grit and the flattening gear and all of that. It SELLS and makes the vendor money. Disagree with Paul Sellers all you want, but the man makes some sensible points on sharpening and the flavor of the day as it relates to sharpening media.

Also, if you've read Chris Pye's books on carving he talks about some guys getting caught up in getting ready to carve, but never really carving. I think the same thing happens to some in wood working. Sharpening is a good activity to lose a bunch of time in. Fettling old tools is another.

Using a belt sander, grinder and buffing wheel isn't sexy, doesn't seem old worldly or have the same hand crafted nostalgia feeling about it. If you want to sharpen traditionally, if you are European, it's a sandstone water wheel followed by some oil stones, of if you are Japanese, then you use Jnats. If the Shaptons are an acceptable improvement, well then so are belt sanders, grinders and buffers.

[Matt Lau]

Waterstones never harmed nobody! (furtively looks around).

All joking aside, at least it's not drugs.
(sigh)

[Andrew Seemann]

Waterstones never harmed nobody! (furtively looks around).

All joking aside, at least it's not drugs.
(sigh)


Believe you me, I have plenty of other woodworking vices, gratuitous sharpening just happens not to be one. I used to have a little problem with braces, bits, and Yankee screw drivers that I am mostly over. And I still can't pass up a $5 plane at a garage sale if it has any salvageable parts. I have a foot of shelf space dedicated to #5s awaiting restoration to visually remind myself that I should get over this habit.

[Jim Koepke]

[edit]
I used to have a little problem with braces, bits, and Yankee screw drivers that I am mostly over. And I still can't pass up a $5 plane at a garage sale if it has any salvageable parts.

Same here, my efforts to curtail my accumulation has had some success. What bothers me is cleaning the shop and coming across a couple of planes with no memory from whence they came:

395354

They are both in usable condition. The blades could use a bit more work. To me they are not comfortable to use due to the grip.

The blades were sharpened on my waterstones.

jtk

[Warren Mickley]

Who here can argue with Tage? Sadly I'm sure most know more about abrasive grits than he did, but where has that gotten them?

We have to remember that practical doesn't sell product. Of course we're going to see demos with 6 stones of varying grit and the flattening gear and all of that. It SELLS and makes the vendor money. Disagree with Paul Sellers all you want, but the man makes some sensible points on sharpening and the flavor of the day as it relates to sharpening media.



There is no shortage of people on this forum who are more discriminating than Tage Frid or Paul Sellers.

[Prashun Patel]

I have shaptons 1000, 5000, 8000. I like that they only require a spritz not a soak.

Is it worse to spend a little too much time sharpening or to wax superior that you don’t?

[Ted Phillips]

I rely on a Shapton Pro set like Prashun's - 1000, 5000, 8000. I have added a 120-grit when I need to re-grind an edge (no power grinder...), and a homemade strop for finishing.

Even though Shapton Pros are "splash and go" stones, you still need to flatten them periodically. I do mine about twice a year with a DiaFlat diamond plate. Takes about 5 min per stone...

TedP

[Matt Lau]

Great sharpening thread. Not the usual sharp-sickness. It has dulled the feeling of inadequacy to find that I am in the middle of normal.

I feel like launching into a Tom Papa monologue-

"Ever sharpen an iron and made it more dull? I have...
For my first five years, I wondered why I could barely cut butter with my plane irons.
Then I realized that Grizzly's India made planes weren't sharpenable."

[bridger berdel]

I use the Nortons too. My first experience with water stones was at a class and I was impressed. Been using them for several years (gosh, over ten now!) and have always been happy with them. I think mine are 1000, 4000, 8000. I flatten with a diamond plate. To qualify, I am not a sharpening guru. I really just wanted something practical and affordable. I don't even know what metal my chisels and plane irons are! I have never tried any of the newer stones. And i don't know all the microns, etc. I just don't see a reason to buy everything that comes along (plus I can't afford it!). I might be much happier with something else, who knows?!? It'd be nice if you could try out some before you commit. Perhaps you can find someone close by to let you have a go at theirs?

As I was typing this, I had to laugh at the irony...I'm a mechanical engineer! Yup.

Oh, I do own some oil stones (Woodcraft). I like to carve a little and I bought oil stones for carving gouges. They work real well too. I'm not so good at sharpening carving gouges, but the stones are good.

Tony

I am a sharpening guru- or at least I teach a sharpening class at the local woodcraft. I try to keep it as simple as possible, but I get students bring in a bit of everything, over time. Partly so that I can instruct them effectively without speaking strictly from theory gleaned from the forums, and partly to appease my stone Jones I have accumulated a bunch of sharpening stuff. It's not just stones, also jigs, machines and associated paraphernalia. In my own work I use mostly 4 or 5 stones. For instance, right now on the bench is a coarse diamond stone because i did a bit of reshaping on a chisel, a 1200 diamond stone and a translucent white Arkansas stone. Most quick touch ups just see the ark.

[Matt Lau]

Picked up the package(s) in the post office.

Stu wrapped each stone individually, and shipped them in separate boxes! Wow!
I don't think I paid him enough to cover shipping.

Haven't unwrapped them yet. Bracing myself for afternoon patients.

[David Ryle]

Mine is saws, God help me!!!!!

[Jon Shank]

The surgical black are such a nice stone to use, you won't regret having one. Or a nice translucent, that's next on my list for treating myself. I sharpened a pocket knife on a buddy's very nice translucent. Finer than the black, very different feel. The black felt almost like a waterstone does, the slippery feeling but just a little feedback that I'm used to from oilstones. The translucent seemed less smooth and slippery, felt alot harder I guess, very little feedback. I think that's one that if I get one like it will take some getting used to, to really get the most out of it. But even not used to it you could see a nicer polish on the edge. The black anyway are a joy to use.
Jon