Buying lumber from a cut list.

[Michael Costa]

I'm almost done with my shop and decided to build myself an Adirondack chair to chill out in a corner. I'm building the one from popular mechanics. I've never made anything using a cut list. It was a nightmare.

I took the cut list to my local wood supplier and must have spent 2 hours sifting thru various sized pieces of Spanish cedar to get what I needed. I needed about 24 board feet and after all that time left with about 35 board feet. Is there a better way to go about this? Anyone can lay this out on paper but you're at this he mercy of what is available when you get to the wood store. It got frustrating having to buy extra 4" wide boards because I can't fit more than one 2.5" cut on them. There will be a ton of waste at $7.49/board foot

Any ideas or at least empathy?

[David Bassett]

... Any ideas or at least empathy?

Lots of empathy! I too struggle with this.

I heard Shannon Rogers speak at (the last?) WIA about this. He had some suggestions, but for it to really go well you need a pretty good idea what sizes are available. (His day job is in a commercial lumber yard. He clearly has this last, key, bit down! Me, not so much.)

The gist of his method it to sort your cut list for buying, not in the project order that makes sense for describing the project. E.g. sort by thickness, then width, and group by length. Now you might group two or three narrow pieces within a wider group because you can rip them all from wider stock. You would also want to group your lengths to match the available boards (or the max length you can transport.)

E.g. for an 8' Nicholson English-style work bench build from 2x12's. You'd group each top pieces individually if you can only transport 8' boards, but might group a top with a (<4') leg piece if you can transport 12' boards. Etc.

Once you have a rough plan, you still have to be flexible to take advantage of the stock on hand that day. (Or that great sale, or....)

[Doug Garson]

No ideas but I can empathize. Recently I went yo my local wood supplier to get some hardwood to replace my wheelbarrow handles. My first choice was Hickory but based on what they had in stock and their minimum off cut limit (they won't cut a piece if the offcut left behind is less than 6 ft) it would have cost my almost $100 and most of the wood would have been left over. As I drove home I saw a pile of free wood in a warehouse parking lot and picked up some suitable wood (I think it was Oak) for free.

[Mark Rainey]

empathy...hobby woodworking is expensive. It is painful to pay $400 for rough lumber but better to get extra than to keep running back when you just need a few more board feet to finish the project. Your reward is the experience and final result. It is worth it.

[glenn bradley]

Using a cut list to determine quantity is a very general step. Careful parts selection takes projects from common to special. If you simply cut the next part from the next section of material that will yield it you end up with questionable figure matching.

Here's an example of boards potentially taken from the same piece of wood that could be used on the same piece but, not on the same part of that piece.

394532

If you use the "next piece available method of parts selection you end up with the door in the top of the following picture instead of the door in the bottom.

394531

None of this matters if you plan to paint your project.

Buying adequate stock for careful parts selection has the hidden value of having just the right piece of scrap for something down the road. This requires that you organize your off-cuts and scraps to some extent. I've never understood people who act like their material is solid gold when they are buying it but treat it like trash when it is leftovers. There are tons of good ideas for storing and organizing materials on the web and right here at SMC ;-)

[Jim Becker]

Since you know the approximate board feet you need for your project (be sure you included some reasonable percentage of extra for matching/mistakes, etc) you start by pulling out boards and laying them or standing them so you can visually ascertain how well they match for grain and color. This is the first "finishing" step for any project! Pull out more than you need and don't be afraid to reject any board for any reason important to you. What you want in the end is a complete set of material that will be homogeneous and look like it all belongs together. Yes, that takes time. But it's worth every minute. And yes...extra/leftover is never wasted. Use it for future projects. It's better to have "too much" than not enough for sure.

[Ralph Okonieski]

I use a software program called “cutlist” to minimize waste when cutting pieces for a project. Suggest using it before purchasing lumber to estimate how many pieces and how they might be cut. Guess at the width and length of available boards, running multiple times with different guesses just to get a rough idea. This assumes you have an approximate idea of what might be available. If it is dimensional lumber, try wider and narrower boards. From the various scenarios, This should give a rough idea of the size and quantity of lumber to buy. After buying lumber, rerun with actual dimensions.

[Nick Decker]

Most cutting boards started out being chosen for something else. Sad but true.

[Matt Day]

Taking just a the cultist is asking for a headache. Try to simplify it and put your pieces into categories by thickness and width. Show up to the lumberyard knowing you need, for example, (4) 6” wide 8’ long 4/4 boards, 2 8” wide 4/4 10’ boards, and (2) 5” wide 8/4 8’ boards. Of course you’ll find some boards that are a bit narrower, wider or longer, but make those decisions at the yard. Round up at home when you make your list.
That’s generally how I do it at least.

[Lee Schierer]

Anyone can lay this out on paper but you're at this he mercy of what is available when you get to the wood store.

That is the crux of the matter, you need to find out what is available before you venture to the wood store. Where I buy lumber, they have a printed listing of materials and sizes they normally have in their inventory. I can put that information in my spread sheet and determine exactly how many feet of what dimensioned size I need and get pretty close to the cost was well. If I don't need all of a particular size and length, it give me space for errors or grain matching. If they are out of a particular size when I go to buy, it is relatively simple to figure out what alternate size can be put to use.

[scott vroom]

It got frustrating having to buy extra 4" wide boards because I can't fit more than one 2.5" cut on them. There will be a ton of waste at $7.49/board foot

Any ideas or at least empathy?

If you glue up two 4.25" boards you can rip three 2.5" boards from it with minimal waste.

[Doug Hepler]

Michael

Regarding empathy, I have been in your situation many times. It is frustrating, but it is the nature of the lumber business, which is basically a wholesale business with (usually) slender profit margins. I use Frank Paxton Lumber in Denver. They try to cater to small, one-off contractors and hobbyists. Still, I can only buy what they have on hand. I have tried Rockler and Woodcraft. They are more retail oriented and more accommodating, but their prices are (IMO) disproportionately higher. So, I have adjusted my attitude and my methods. Here is a summary that incorporates a lot of what earlier responses have said:

(1) It helps to know what will be on hand. This may require a phone call or a preliminary visit to the yard. 1 x 6 x 10' is probably a safe guess for many common species, since you may need to cut longer boards to transport them anyway. Some species may be available only in smaller boards.
(2) Use a layout program. I use the free version of cutlist (http://www.delphiforfun.org.ws034.alentus.com/programs/CutList.htm (http://www.delphiforfun.org.ws034.alentus.com/programs/CutList.htm)). Note that this is different from the "free" trial version of Cutlist Plus. It is a bit clunky but it works very well. Put your best guess of the sizes of supply pieces and your cutout parts into the program and use its layout to estimate how many boards you will need.
(3) Take your time to get what you need. Don't be afraid to ask questions and say what you want. (Not that you would not, but if they are busy or impatient it can be hard.) Depending on the grade of the lumber, allow up to 20% extra for cutting around defects, do-overs, etc.

Let me elaborate a bit on the idea of attitude when buying from a lumberyard. It helps a lot if you go prepared with contingency plans. Last week, I wanted 20 linear feet of 1 x 6 and 20 linear feet of 1 1/2 x 6. Like you, I am making a chair for outdoor use. I researched available lumber at Paxton's that would be suitable for my project.

I was going to buy Iroko, but when I got there, I found out that the iroko was rough sawn. I considered planing it but since it was iroko I nixed that idea. I was willing to pay the premium for S American mahogany, but I just did not think the quality of the mahogany was worth the premium price. (This is all self service) They had white oak on sale and I considered that. I came home with 31 BF of red grandis. They did not have any 6/4 so I have just finished gluing up 1-by to make 1 1/2" thick stock. This took me twice as long as I expected, but I was happy with what I brought home. I did not get all 1 x 6, the red grandis was in various widths. I put the actual widths into Cutlist and was able to get very compact cuts, with about 20% actually left over for the next project and very few small cutoffs for the burn pile. I recognize that this would have been much more difficult if I had to work through an impatient counterman, but I would have done it anyway.

A long story. I hope it helps.

Doug

[Simon MacGowen]

I have never done a build based on a published cutlist. For the very few projects that were based on other people's work ( eg New Yankee WS), I created my own dimensions and lumber list.

If you do plan to use a cutlist, digest it and create your own (which you can understand) and use that to guide your lumber purchase.

I never budget waste for my projects but I would 30 to 50 more for future projects. What this means is that I do not pay particular attention to how much extra wood I would need.

I do make mistakes like anyone else but I am seeing significant dwindling of occurrences of mistakes over time.

Simon

[Dave Richards]

The problem with a cutlist is that it can't account for the defects you'll need to cut around or the excess you'll need to purchase because the boards are longer than the pieces you need to cut out of them. You might be able to nest some parts on wider stock to help reduce the amount of waste but it depends on how you want the grain to run. If you are OK with the grain following one tapered side of the back slats, you could get two slats from a piece about 5-1/2 in. wide. I'd personally rather taper both sides of the slats to keep the grain running the right direction although this would use a little more wood. FWIW, I made a model (https://flic.kr/p/2bNc5Xp) of the chair you mentioned and generated a cutlist. Looks like about 17 bdft with minimal waste.

[Tom M King]

On very rare occasions, it works out. I sent my cutlist for a bunch of reproduction 18th Century window sash to a supplier of Southern Long Leaf Pine. I told him, if possible, I wanted all very fine, straight grain, with no nail holes, or knots. A few weeks later I got a call from him saying he had it together. He had been in the Heart Pine reclaiming business for 40 years, and had some piles of stuff that were "too good to throw away, but too small for anyone to want". It was perfect. He said he was about to give the small pieces, that turned out to be perfect for muntins, to a Boy Scout Troop, to use for kindling. He didn't come close to giving it to me, but I was glad to get it at any price.

http://historic-house-restoration.com/images/041_640x480_.jpg

[Steve Rozmiarek]

The key to low waste is to know what stock is available before you design the project.

[Jim Becker]

I use a software program called “cutlist” to minimize waste when cutting pieces for a project.

Cutlist type applications are outstanding for sheet goods, but not quite as good for solid stock other than figuring board feet requirements to some extent. Why? Because it's rare that even one board will be ideal for just cutting out components without shifting things around to account for grain and color variations. Waste is normal with solid stock because of that. For paint grade work, you can cut things closer (pardon the semi-pun), of course, but for projects where the wood is the feature, the optimal end result requires more material to start with to get there.

[Darcy Warner]

I just buy 500bf at a time. Problem solved.

[Ben Zara]

Finding the right wood is a pain but you gotta embrace it.

The prime difference between fine woodworking and everything else is that fine woodworkers carefully select the wood.

If you have ever been to a friend's house where he just got new "solid cherry" kitchen cabinets then you know what I'm talking about:
Where the rails and stiles or the panel glue ups look like someone purposefully picked out grain that was as opposite as possible.

Yeah we empathize but carry on :)

[Doug Hepler]

Cutlist type applications are outstanding for sheet goods, but not quite as good for solid stock other than figuring board feet requirements to some extent. Why? Because it's rare that even one board will be ideal for just cutting out components without shifting things around to account for grain and color variations. Waste is normal with solid stock because of that. For paint grade work, you can cut things closer (pardon the semi-pun), of course, but for projects where the wood is the feature, the optimal end result requires more material to start with to get there.

I agree with most of this, but somehow I feel that I should comment. Yes, Cutlist is virtually indispensable for sheet good layouts. With boards, the layout I get from Cutlist is still vastly superior to any I can do in my head or on paper. My simple chair has 45 pieces. These can be arranged in more than one million possible arrangements. When a board has defects that would spoil a piece in the layout, the layout diagram makes it easier for me to relocate that piece. Cutlist allows me to manually lay out the cuts, so I can work around defects if necessary. In any case, I can still get an efficient layout. Of course, I usually buy extra BF, depending on lumber grade. That's where I cut the replacement pieces.

So, perhaps some of us simply feel better doing layouts by hand and some of us find that process to be tedious.

Doug

[johnny means]

+ 30-50% based on anticipated waste. I just put together a cutlist for two pair of carriage doors. Each pair is just under 8'x8', so 8 and 4 foot lengths were what I needed. The supplier happened to have 8s in stock, minimizing unnecessary length. If I had to buy 10s, we would have been looking at 2' of waste on almost every board.

[Simon MacGowen]

I just buy 500bf at a time. Problem solved.

Real woodworkers do things like that, unless you don't have the storage space/budget. I work with rough lumber and 200bf is the minimum I get every time. It is also more efficient to dress your stock in bulk and let it acclimatize. I can have several hundred bf of dressed stock at a time ready for any project I choose to do. Sometimes, the stock (grain) you want may not be available at your lumber yard.

Worrying about 10% vs 30% of waste, etc. is unnecessary if you are in the long haul to build things. I still have a few planks bought more than a decade ago, which are waiting for the right project. Lumber costs go up over time, and you may be saving a lot with those birds-eye boards you bought 5 years ago. Waste? What waste?

Simon

[Michael Costa]

It's woodworkers source (Phoenix) and not far from me so I don't mind going there. I did sort my cut in widths which made it easier I'm sure. But I was just amazed at the time it took to select all that wood.

And speaking of woodworkers source. I noticed a negative thread (which is now closed) about them. Not sure if this matters but I was there twice over the weekend and there are many new faces. This could be why some got crummy boards. And I agree a phone call is better than email. Email is extremely time consuming. They are the read and get back to later type of communication. And most times that get back to gets so far down the list it's lost in the shuffle.
Point is, I have never had issues with them. Although I have never bought something sight unseen.

[Jim Becker]

Doug, I don't disagree at all with the statement that Cutlist Plus can be used effectively with solid stock for laying out parts and yes, you can move things around, etc. My primary concern is that layout programs tend to "follow the edges" of a board which may not be the ideal way to insure grain and color matching across components and "this little thing" can be the difference between a nice project result and an outstanding project result. I cannot tell you how many times I've taken a board and "changed the edge" simply to get things to match up a lot better. Yes, I do have a slider that makes that super easy, but the same can be done with a sled or track saw, too. And this certainly creates more waste. I actually did that this past week while creating the components for a hall table I'm working on to insure that the natural edge was "balanced" across the apron pieces since it would appear at the bottom of them.

[Doug Hepler]

Jim, point taken.

Doug

[Gary Ragatz]

(2) Use a layout program. I use the free version of cutlist ( (http://www.delphiforfun.org.ws034.alentus.com/programs/CutList.htm)http://www.delphiforfun.org.ws034.alentus.com/programs/CutList.htm). Note that this is different from the "free" trial version of Cutlist Plus. It is a bit clunky but it works very well. Put your best guess of the sizes of supply pieces and your cutout parts into the program and use its layout to estimate how many boards you will need.


Thanks for the link to the free version of Cutlist - I downloaded it this morning, and it seems like it will be useful. As I was playing around with it, I ran across some anomalies, and wanted to bring them to the attention of the author, but none of the "comment" or "feedback" links on the site worked. I did a little bit of googling and discovered an obituary for the author of the program, Gary Darby. He passed away in July, at age 79.

I assume Cutlist Plus will be maintained, going forward, but I don't know how long the free version of Cutlist will continue to be available.

[lowell holmes]

I have glued boards together to get widths I need. If you carefully match grain patterns, it is not distracting.

[Robert Engel]

Michael,

Yes, you are confined to the stock on hand.

4" to 2 1/2 you're not really losing that much by the time you mill it.

I find it best to got see what width boards they have and try to do the most economical layout.

I always figure 20% or, in your case, an extra board.

I use CutList to calculate layouts and material needs.

[Mark Rainey]

On very rare occasions, it works out. I sent my cutlist for a bunch of reproduction 18th Century window sash to a supplier of Southern Long Leaf Pine. I told him, if possible, I wanted all very fine, straight grain, with no nail holes, or knots. A few weeks later I got a call from him saying he had it together. He had been in the Heart Pine reclaiming business for 40 years, and had some piles of stuff that were "too good to throw away, but too small for anyone to want". It was perfect. He said he was about to give the small pieces, that turned out to be perfect for muntins, to a Boy Scout Troop, to use for kindling. He didn't come close to giving it to me, but I was glad to get it at any price.

http://historic-house-restoration.com/images/041_640x480_.jpg
what a find Tom! Love that straight grained clear wood especially when using hand planes.

[Prashun Patel]

choose either economy or aesthetics. I have been disappointed every time I try to hit both targets completely.

Or choose cheaper wood so you can buy extra.



You can also sometimes get deals on shorts.

[Gary Breckenridge]

Plan B is having a large stock of your favorite lumber. When you need a certain piece just go to the stack and get a piece that is just about the right size.

[Michael Costa]

I spend a lot of time sorting thru pieces to make sure I got the same grain type and coloring.

And I did think of the "screw it, I'll just buy a ton of it and deal when home." At least a can have a beer or 6 while sorting. =) However, while I'm not woodworking to make money I was aware of the "having too much inventory on hand is bad business." But then again, spending 2 hours of labor picking thru wood must be bad business as well.

After I finally got what I needed someone told me they could have taken the forklift and pulled a stack off the warehouse shelf for me to look thru. I'm sure that would have been easier.

Also, it didn't even occur to me to glue up pieces. I literally just bought a jointer too.

Either way, I have my wood and will let the sawdust fly. My garage smells like cedar and thats a happy smell.

[Randy Heinemann]

As I have moved through time in woodworking, I find that matching boards to each other where that matters is most important. It certainly is important to know how wide and long these boards must be in the end, but making the project look good is still the highest priority. So, for me, I buy whatever I need to match wood that must be glued together and to make the project look good to me. Sometimes, because wood suppliers don't always have exactly what I want, that means I end up buying quite a bit more board feet than the work requires. I tend to buy wood from a place that, while more expensive, there is less waste and I buy less wood. In addition, the wood is generally of much better quality. I have been lucky to consistently have a supplier like that available locally.

[Simon MacGowen]

choose either economy or aesthetics. I have been disappointed every time I try to hit both targets completely.

Or choose cheaper wood so you can buy extra.



You can also sometimes get deals on shorts.

A couple of local lumber places here run special sale when they get a huge lot of lumber now and then. I check them out once in a few months when my stock runs low to see if any sale deals are on. Even if I have to drive an hour to get them, they are worth the time whether as a Plan B or Plan A. 50% to 65% off the regular prices for comparable ash, cherry, walnut and even mahogany. Most are planed both sides, and they let you roam around and choose the straightest pieces you can find. It can be a four hour exercise, but after a fully loaded truck, I could be easily saving half a grand or more. That is like making more than $100 an hour, the rate not even a full-time furniture maker gets.

Simon

[Todd Bender]

Just build everything out of maple. Not figured or spalted or anything crazy. Generic maple is easy to match. :)

[Steven Powell]

Taking just a the cultist is asking for a headache. Try to simplify it and put your pieces into categories by thickness and width. Show up to the lumberyard knowing you need, for example, (4) 6” wide 8’ long 4/4 boards, 2 8” wide 4/4 10’ boards, and (2) 5” wide 8/4 8’ boards. Of course you’ll find some boards that are a bit narrower, wider or longer, but make those decisions at the yard. Round up at home when you make your list.
That’s generally how I do it at least.

This is how I do it and it works pretty well.

[Andrew Seemann]

Sometimes the cut list determines what wood gets used for a project. Some woods like birch around here tend to be only available in narrower widths, so I don't use it where I need wider boards, I try to go with red oak for those as it is usually available wide. White pine is available wide and long and knot free. Hard maple can often be found wide, but often not flat.

Things change too. Some woods like walnut are ridiculously expensive despite poor quality, and some woods like cherry are now quite inexpensive despite high quality. A dozen years ago it was the reverse, go figure.