Removing Capacitor from Dust Collector Motor [Archive] - Sawmill Creek Woodworking Community

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Sandra White

10-06-2018, 4:09 PM

Hi folks,

This is a Penn State Industries 1.5 HP dust collector DC2V3Y (now discontinued). It has suddenly stopped working.

The motor runs for about a second then quits. The capacitor looks to be leaking oil - apparently a good sign that it has failed.

Before removal, I've read that the capacitor should be discharged (to drain any charge it may be holding) by shorting the 2 terminals. The wires come directly out of the capacitor which makes that a bit difficult and I can't seem to be able to pull off the wire nuts.

I'm really tempted to just cut the wires but thought I'd run it past you guys first.

394507

Tom M King

10-06-2018, 5:32 PM

Those look like crimp connectors. You'll have to cut the wires. Do make sure to discharge the capacitor first though!!

Sandra White

10-06-2018, 5:37 PM

... Do make sure to discharge the capacitor first though!!

Tom,
Yeah, but that is what I'm asking...how do I discharge it. Thanks for the post.

Stan Coryell

10-06-2018, 5:46 PM

Cut both wires at the same time.
Stan

Dan Friedrichs

10-06-2018, 5:47 PM

Don't worry about discharging it. There is little risk of stored charge on a motor capacitor.

If you really wanted to, the way to do it would be to cut the wires and touch the exposed ends together.

Tom M King

10-06-2018, 5:52 PM

Insulated screwdriver, and look the other way.

It might have a bleed down resistor anyway, which they do a lot of times-tried to add picture, but it won't show. Picture added in a post below. If it has that resistor between the terminals, chances approach zero that it's holding a charge anyway.

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marty fretheim

10-06-2018, 5:55 PM

It won't hold a charge indefinitely. Unplug it for 24 hours and use insulated cutters. And don't stand in puddle of water. Seriously though. as long as you cut one wire at a time and don't get in series with the two wires (cut one at a time) you will be fine. Cut one wire and touch it to a ground and it will bleed off but it probably already has. I've changed out plenty of these and never had an issue. Smart of you to think know about it though.

Marty

Tom M King

10-06-2018, 5:56 PM

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Jason Roehl

10-07-2018, 8:13 AM

A capacitor charged by AC current typically is not much of an issue. It's the DC-charged ones you have to worry about.

Tom Bain

10-07-2018, 9:24 AM

Those look like crimp connectors. You'll have to cut the wires. Do make sure to discharge the capacitor first though!!

If you are patient you can actually “uncrimp” the wires using lineman’s pliers to reopen the crimps and then pull the wires out, but definitely much quicker to just cut the crimps off.

Mike Heidrick

10-07-2018, 11:45 AM

Voltage on a start cap is DC. It could be anywhere from -240v to +240v depending on where its at when removed from the start circuit. You can test its voltage with a meter. Zero issue cutting the leads as long as you dont ground the terminal when doing so. Once done put a 5 watt 5000 ohm (or larger ohm lower watt) resistor between the two leads and you can then use a meter and see when it is zero volts. Caps dont just loose their charge by sitting overnight, it takes a load to discharge a cap. To test your cap with your meter, set it to dc volts and touch each lead to each terminal/wire.

Sandra White

10-09-2018, 11:42 AM

Many thanks to all the folks that answered my post.

The good news is that I'm still in the land of the living after cutting the wires.

Sad news is, after installing a new capacitor, of same uF and V, it still doesn't want to start up.

Maybe 1.5 sec and then it dies.

I put a board up against the air intake - no difference.

I'll try different electrical outlets later today (but that didn't work for the original capacitor so I'm not too hopeful)

A label on the dust collector motor says it is 11 amps and I'm pretty sure the trip beaker in the house electrical panel is 15 amp.

Suggestions welcome, as I'm running out of ideas.

John K Jordan

10-09-2018, 1:51 PM

Is the replacement capacitor an AC capacitor made specifically for motors? If the terminals are marked with "+" and "-" it's a DC electrolytic capacitor instead and won't work even if the capacitance and voltage ratings are the same. Note that if you can't find an identical replacement capacitor one with higher ratings should work.

For the motors I've had with start capacitors, the motor will just hum with a bad or missing capacitor but will run if nudged by hand. I've operated lathes and a bandsaw this way for a while until I got replacement capacitors. They would run in either direction depending on the direction of the push. But running in the correct direction for 1.5 seconds doesn't fit my own experience of motor capacitor issues. For a hint, perhaps you can monitor the voltage and the current the motor is pulling during this time. If stumped and can take the motor out easily, a local motor repair shop can check it out.

JKJ

Dan Friedrichs

10-09-2018, 2:47 PM

Starting for 1.5 seconds then shutting off is "failed centrifugal switch" symptoms. See if you can find the centrifugal switch and try to blow it out and/or clean it.

Thomas Crawford

10-09-2018, 5:43 PM

For the record its bad advice to just short the terminals together on a cap - you should always use a resistor to limit the current.

Sandra White

10-11-2018, 5:08 PM

Many thanks for the additional comments - all good stuff.

Re Dan's suggestion - I tried looking for the centrifugal switch.

Doesn't look like it is on this end of the motor:

394818

(I undone 3 bolts and tapped the end cover. The end cover (along with the white fan and the motor shaft) moved about an inch or less and then stopped.

Here's what it looks like from the other end:

394820

394821

I'm tempted to proceed just undoing stuff but thought I'd see if any one has this kind of set up.

Thanks!

Dan Friedrichs

10-14-2018, 3:06 PM

Do a google image search for "centrifugal switch" so you know what you're looking for, but I'd bet it's under that black cover. Take the motor cooling fan off and see if you can remove it.

Sandra White

01-19-2019, 3:01 PM

Well, its been a while but I'm back to looking at this dust collector.

To answer John's question, the original capacitor was 400 MFD 125VAC and the replacement is 400-480 MFD 110-125 VAC, so i think I'm alright with the replacement.
401648

I took out the motor - the centrifugal switch looks pristine and seems to operate with finger pressure.
401649

While I was at it, I sandpapered between the contacts.
401651

Put the motor back and fired it up without re-attaching the impeller. It ran fine. So then I re-attached the impeller - it now cuts out after a second or so, just like before, and not only that - the impeller is turning in the wrong direction!

Not sure what is going on.

PS. I was looking at a replacement centrifugal switch and this switch has an Amp Rating: 20 amp
This dust collector was sold to accept regular house voltage of 120 VAC - and states on the motor 11 amps - is that OK?

Dan Friedrichs

01-19-2019, 9:34 PM

Somehow you flipped wires on the centrifugal switch when you re-assembled it, causing it to reverse rotation. See this for more detail: https://woodgears.ca/motors/reversing.html

Regarding the shutting-off behavior: what, exactly, is causing it to "cut out"? Is there a magnetic switch and overload relay?

Mike Henderson

01-19-2019, 9:40 PM

Don't worry about discharging it. There is little risk of stored charge on a motor capacitor.

If you really wanted to, the way to do it would be to cut the wires and touch the exposed ends together.

I agree with Dan. I've never gotten a shock from a starting cap. Additionally, that cap has failed which is another reason it probably can't hold a charge. But if you're worried, just cut both wires at the same time.

Mike

Sandra White

01-20-2019, 10:15 AM

Dan, thanks for the reply.

I'm not sure how I could have flipped the wires but I'll double check when I take it apart again.

As far as shutting off - the dust collector was tripping the circuit breaker in the main service panel.

To save time re-setting the circuit breaker in the main service panel, I've since started using a Surge Protector Power Strip (120Vac 15 Amp 50/60Hz):

401717

Whenever I turn on the dust collector, it runs for about a second or two, then the surge protector trips.

Kevin Jenness

01-20-2019, 10:34 AM

Time to take it to a motor shop.

Mike Cutler

01-20-2019, 11:02 AM

Well, its been a while but I'm back to looking at this dust collector.

To answer John's question, the original capacitor was 400 MFD 125VAC and the replacement is 400-480 MFD 110-125 VAC, so i think I'm alright with the replacement.
401648

This capacitor is fine. It is correct for the application. Unfortunately, capacitors are prone to "infant mortality". Without a capacitor checker, it's on blind faith that you believe the capacitor to still be good.

I took out the motor - the centrifugal switch looks pristine and seems to operate with finger pressure.
401649

While I was at it, I sandpapered between the contacts.
401651

Put the motor back and fired it up without re-attaching the impeller. It ran fine. So then I re-attached the impeller - it now cuts out after a second or so, just like before, and not only that - the impeller is turning in the wrong direction!

If you take the impeller off does it run properly, and how do you know the impeller is spinning backwards?

Not sure what is going on.

PS. I was looking at a replacement centrifugal switch and this switch has an Amp Rating: 20 amp
This dust collector was sold to accept regular house voltage of 120 VAC - and states on the motor 11 amps - is that OK?
Yes, it's fine. If it was the reverse, then it would be an issue.

As Kevin stated, it may be to take it to a motor shop and have it tested. Get an estimate for services first. It may be cheaper to just replace the motor.;)

Dan Friedrichs

01-20-2019, 11:18 AM

Well, you eliminated the most likely failure by replacing the capacitor, and it looks like the centrifugal switch is good, as well.

You also found a really good piece of information in noting that the motor runs fine without the impeller, but trips the circuit breaker with the impeller in place. If the motor had a shorted winding (or something), it seems less likely that the presence/absence of the mechanical load (the impeller) would trigger this problem. So, excellent troubleshooting work, there.

Some ideas to try, next:

1) When you've been running the motor with the impeller, is it in the blower housing with ductwork and filters (etc) attached? The motor will draw maximum amps when the mechanical load is maximum, which is when there are no restrictions on the impeller. If you have the motor set out on a workbench with the impeller spinning in free air, I would definitely say to put the entire dust collector back together and see if you trip the breaker. It's possible the capacitor was bad (causing the breaker to trip, initially), and if you're overloading the motor by not having filter/duct/etc restrictions on it, it may be tripping it now, but won't once assembled.

2) The next most likely thing to check is the supply circuit. Can you try plugging it in to a different circuit/breaker? Perhaps a circuit with a 20A breaker? Is there anything (except the motor) plugged into this 15A circuit when you're testing? Could be a bad breaker, could be a few amps worth of "other stuff" (lights, etc) on this circuit is causing the total current to exceed 15A...

3) Is the run of wire from the breaker panel to the dust collector long? It's possible your voltage is drooping, which will cause the motor to draw more current. Use an AC voltmeter to measure the voltage at the motor while it's running. Less than ~110V would be concerning.

4) You could buy a clamp-on AC current meter and measure the current to the motor while running, and see if it exceeds 11A (or 15A...).

5) I wouldn't bother taking it to a motor shop. You've already replaced the only "fixable" component in this motor (the capacitor). The only other thing that could have "failed" is that there could be a short in the stator winding. No way that's economical to fix (and it's also very unlikely).

Bill Orbine

01-20-2019, 12:06 PM

John Lanciani

01-20-2019, 12:09 PM

Ditch the power strip, the cheesy breaker in them is not meant to handle the inrush current of an induction motor. You likely already fixed the core problem, but you introduced another variable into the equation.

Sandra White

01-21-2019, 11:23 AM

Well done, John!

I stopped using the cheesy power strip and the dust collector starts up and runs!

It's still running backwards though:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/1YB5UEayV8pGprQe9

Notice how it runs clockwise. You would think that it would run counter clockwise to use the scooping action of the vanes. Also, you see that end cap? (I think that is to prevent the key in the shaft from falling out) The end cap bolt is a left hand thread.

The only electrical change was replacing the capacitor. I don't think it matters which way the capacitor leads are hooked up.

This is very strange as I bought this dust collector new and no one has messed with it except me.

Dan Friedrichs

01-21-2019, 11:37 AM

I think that's actually correct. The blades are curved to reduce noise.

Kevin Jenness

01-21-2019, 12:19 PM

It's the correct rotation for the backward-inclined impeller.

Sandra White

01-21-2019, 1:17 PM

Wow! Who'da thunk.

Many thanks Dan and Kevin - I guess I'm back in business!

John K Jordan

01-21-2019, 1:31 PM

From the Bill Pentz DC site:

401800