Plane blade expectations

[Alexander Zagubny]

Hey, neanderthals!

I recently started working with some pine boards to make shelves and blade seems to become dull too fast. I want to understand if it's my expectations are too high or blade might be faulty.

I basically used 3 planes: scrub plane with unknown steel (about 30*), 25* and 38* pm-v11. Task performed was removing old finish and flattening with scrub, then flattening with jack (25*) and removing tear-out with smoothing (38*). I tried avoiding putting anything except scrub plane to old finish (which should be yacht varnish) but that was not always possibly.
Later I switched to new pine boards and flattened and prepared for gluing them mostly with jack.
On the next day I noticed that jack plane is not working satisfactory and checked its blade, then other blades. I would say scrub plane blade looks good, 38* smoothing blade looks good as well (in fact I think I only sharpened it once). And 25* blade that concerned meek look really bad: dents, folded steel etc. I tried stropping it (piece of beech with green compound) but it still looked bad after that.

Here is the photo (https://photos.app.goo.gl/PYAFcr7UZ39Y7nqW8) of blade (inserted below), and here is the photo (https://photos.app.goo.gl/jwKeUaPvLzhtSbhM9) of 1 mm scale for, well, scale.
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What do you think? Is it normal wear for half day work or probably the finish damaged the blade? Or pine knots?


I want to notice in advance that I know about Veritas excellent service but I want first to understand if it's my fault or not.

[Laurent Marshall]

I'm curious what other folks will say about their experiences with PMV-11. My experience with regular steels has been that pine knots can mess up an edge quite quickly :) It also seems to me your jack plane was sharpened with a pretty shallow bevel, I've found 25* to be pretty fragile in a lot of cases, so a 30* micro bevel makes a big difference.

[glenn bradley]

I don't know about placing blame particularly. Knots and so forth can be abusive. I have 25* BU PM-V11 irons but, they are mostly for shooting and other paring-type work. I imagine planing a knot at 25* would be undesirable for any cutter. Also, I touch up irons several times during a planing session. I do not expect to go all day without stopping to tend to my cutting edges. As soon as the resistance starts to climb I pull the iron and touch it up. In just a moment or two I'm back to work.

[chris carter]

My fore (or scrub, whatever you want to call it) is 25* and of some ancient steel (pre-1900), my jack is 01 at 25*, and my smoother is A1 @ 25*. Knots in pine can be pretty abusive and I always skew the blade heavily when passing over a knot. Once I started doing that, I never had any problems with pine knots damaging the blade (and I've done a lot of knotty pine projects recently). Slamming straight into a knot dead on is not only tough on the blade, but jarring to my whole body! I always touch up my plane irons daily. If I'm in the shop for more than a few hours, I'll touch up at some point in the middle of working if a certain plane is doing a lot of work. When I say touch up, I mean hitting the strop for 30 seconds - I don't go to a stone unless there's something serious. If the blade starts getting dull, it seems to be more likely to sustain damage in my opinion. So I sharpen frequently, which is one reason my woodies don't have chip-breakers - it slows the whole process down.

[Steve Elliott]

If the cutting edge is chipping or folding it's a sign that the bevel angle is too acute. Most plane blades need an angle of 30 degrees or a little more to stand up to typical planing forces. Higher cutting angles need somewhat higher bevel angles and lower cutting angles can get away with lower ones, but in general I would expect problems from a blade at 25 degrees.

It's not necessary to precisely measure the angle, just watch what happens to the cutting edge as the angle is increased and find the angle that holds up for the sort of planing you're doing.

[Derek Cohen]

I have several PM-V11 plane blades. BU plane blades are absolutely fine at 25 degrees. I shoot end grain with 25 degrees, and it just lasts. However, 25 degrees is too low for a BD plane, and I found it lasted about as long as A2 at this angle. Take it up to 30 degrees, and it now becomes a very durable edge for a BD plane blade.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[glenn bradley]

I mentioned but, probably should have emphasized that my 25* irons are bedded bevel up at 12* for a presentation angle of 37*. My No 4 ground at 25* is bedded bevel down and presented at about 45*. The impact effect is different although the blade grind is the same.

[Jim Koepke]

What do you think? Is it normal wear for half day work or probably the finish damaged the blade? Or pine knots?


My jack planes with 25º bevels show this kind of an effect often after hitting a knot. Pine knots are exceptionally hard on a blade.

With the chips that look as big as yours, it is time for a trip to the stones, maybe even a light grinding.

jtk

[Jessica de Boer]

BU plane blades are absolutely fine at 25 degrees. I shoot end grain with 25 degrees, and it just lasts.

I don't know if anyone else does this but I make a small bevel on the back of my bevel up blades at 5 degrees. This makes the total angle of the blade 30 degrees and thus the edge stronger but does nothing to alter the shaving angle of 37 degrees since that is determined by the angle of the bed.

[Alexander Zagubny]

I have several PM-V11 plane blades. BU plane blades are absolutely fine at 25 degrees. I shoot end grain with 25 degrees, and it just lasts. However, 25 degrees is too low for a BD plane, and I found it lasted about as long as A2 at this angle. Take it up to 30 degrees, and it now becomes a very durable edge for a BD plane blade.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Mine jack & smoothing plane are bevel ups. Scrub is bevel down.

Actual angle is 1-2* higher due to using Veritas sharpening jig, so I assumed that's a bit higher than nominal and should provide enough added strength.

Yeah, I know that I should re-sharpen that blade but I don't like to sharpen and haven't yet established the procedure with minimal mess. For now I just dropped in spare blade that I planned to use as higher-angle for smoothing. Will try to compare apples to apples as much as possible, that seems to be the only way to figure it out.

And probably having several spare 25* blades makes sense, that will allow batching for sharpening.


I don't know if anyone else does this but I make a small bevel on the back of my bevel up blades at 5 degrees. This makes the total angle of the blade 30 degrees and thus the edge stronger but does nothing to alter the shaving angle of 37 degrees since that is determined by the angle of the bed.

Interesting solution! I read somewhere that as long as you have more than 5* clearance angle, you should be ok (with wood). However bevel up spokeshaves have near zero clearance angle and work.
Does that significantly complicates sharpening?

UPD Ok, actually spokeshave is a different story, it doesn't have flat sole behind behind the blade.

[Jessica de Boer]

Does that significantly complicates sharpening?
Not at all. I have a small strip of metal of the correct thickness which I lay at the long edge of my stones so that when I lay my blade on it with the back facing downward I'm exactly at 5 degrees.

[Jessica de Boer]

Does that significantly complicates sharpening?
Not at all. I have a small strip of metal of the correct thickness which I lay at the long edge of my stones so that when I lay my blade on it with the back facing downward and the edge of the blade at the opposite side of the stone I'm exactly at 5 degrees.

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Jessica

I've not tried a 5 degree backbevel on a BU plane. In theory, this would take the clearance angle close to the 7 degrees recommended as the lower limit. In practice, I have never found that a 25 degree bevel angle needed strengthening on a BU plane. I have used a wide range of steels and typically hard and abrasive woods. The low cutting angle and force vectors in this BU set up appear to reduce the stresses at the bevel edge. This is different from the force vectors of a BD plane with a common angle (45 degree) bed.

This comparison of two shooting planes illustrates the difference: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/LVShootingPlane.html

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Alexander Zagubny]

Hi Jessica

I've not tried a 5 degree backbevel on a BU plane. In theory, this would take the clearance angle close to the 7 degrees recommended as the lower limit. In practice, I have never found that a 25 degree bevel angle needed strengthening on a BU plane. I have used a wide range of steels and typically hard and abrasive woods. The low cutting angle and force vectors in this BU set up appear to reduce the stresses at the bevel edge. This is different from the force vectors of a BD plane with a common angle (45 degree) bed.

This comparison of two shooting planes illustrates the difference: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/LVShootingPlane.html

Regards from Perth

Derek

Derek, could you please share the source of that 7* clearance recommendation?


Not at all. I have a small strip of metal of the correct thickness which I lay at the long edge of my stones so that when I lay my blade on it with the back facing downward and the edge of the blade at the opposite side of the stone I'm exactly at 5 degrees.

I'm probably over-complicating that but that should require precise positioning and precise blade moves to get the same angle, isn't it? However if it provides like 2 times less sharpening it worth trying...


Derek, how often do you usually sharpen? I mean if PM-V11 was capable of 60 shavings cross-grain, why not to raise that number to 100 shavings?
For instance I'm occasional weekend woodworker and need to clean up the sink to sharpen. Preparations and cleaning up the mess after sharpening takes time and I'm certainly trying to sharpen several tools at once. So I usually hesitate to sharpen weekly, more like every other week.



Thank you all for replies! I will try 30* bevel and see what difference it makes. I would appreciate any advises on making the process easier. Like do you have spare blades to sharpen in a bulk or how often do you strop? Freehand stropping on leather or jig on wood? Maybe using dedicated scrub / fore plane or dedicated blade. What works best for you?

I like how freshly sharpened blade slices the wood but I don't find sharpening to be as rewarding as woodworking so I have a problem :) I'm trying to optimize sharpening process like using stone pond, sometimes hollow grinding for freehand sharpening, reducing hand-water contact (to prevent dry hands), sharpening at the evening when kitchen is not in use...

[Jessica de Boer]

I'm probably over-complicating that but that should require precise positioning and precise blade moves to get the same angle, isn't it? However if it provides like 2 times less sharpening it worth trying...

I'm not that anal about it. It it's a bit less than 5 degrees I really don't care. I have however noticed the edge stays sharp longer.

[Alexander Zagubny]

Jessica, so you basically sharpen the back bevel until burr removal?

[Vincent Tai]

Alexander; Half a days work prepping multiple boards is a decent amount of work and wear on the irons. For a blade at 25 degrees going half a day of planing and sometimes hitting varnish and going right back into it the next day without sharpening and then only stropping - this is simply not enough maintenance. Way too high expectations. Like way way too high. Even for a 30 degree bevel that's not enough sharpening. The scrub plane can be quite quite dull and work well, and the smoother blades are just smoothing pine, thin shavings nice and calming. But the Jack needs to flatten and leave a decent surface so more work but a sharp blade still needed. I also just realized my jack gets a little help from my jointer plane. I can live with a little surface fuzz and discrepancies from the jack which I clean up in a jiffy with a jointer plane.

Sometimes in more serious planing and prep on very gnarly stuff I will start popping out my blades every 15-30 minutes and run them through the finer stones in about 30 seconds each. This is for stuff like curly exotics so overkill is not overkill. Stropping should be used more near the beginning of wear showing to help avoid more trips to the sharpening sessions. Sharpening isn't all that fun but trying to strop out real nicks and rolled steel is worse as it is futile. Having to spend more time sharpening out those nicks and rolled steel is also not fun. All that being said, maybe take a look at your burr removal. Every now and then we all miss a bit of something and then that's when you start getting steel folding.

Also, something like a marine varnish or really thick film finish is not good for the blades. Thats a lootttttt of wear. I think they also really contribute to a wear bevel. I usually use a Stanley no5 with a blade I'm not too fond of for something like that.

Sharpening is something we just can't escape. Best of luck finding a setup you will like. It may take a while but I think it's possible. It would be interesting to hear how batch sharpening goes for you. On a side note; the MKII veritas jig is only 1-2-3 degrees higher if you twist the side brass knob that allows for that. Other wise if the knob is set at the "first position" then your blades are not coming out 1 or 2 degrees steeper; just the normal angle.

[David Eisenhauer]

Just a very slight lift of the back end of the blade when working the back bevel in ought to do it and then you are working towards the already-sharpened front side, That should result in not very many strokes when putting that tiny back bevel on Alexander. I believe this is one of those things that do not require any jigs or inordinate attempts at exact precision to achieve a result.

[Jason Lester]

One of the biggest differences in my hand tool skills came from sharpening early and often. I went through several different methods before I got to one that is quick and easy for me. I use the Shapton Pro stones at 1000, 5000, and 12000 grits. As long as there are no major issues with the edge other than dullness, it takes 10-20 strokes per grit and then I'm back in business. I don't have running water in my shop, but the Shapton's just need a splash. I have a rubber boot tray that they sit in along with a spray bottle. It's easy and makes no mess.

[Robert Hazelwood]

I think most people have found the biggest problem, which is that the 25 degree iron did not hold up. For each tool, you need to find the lowest edge angle where the blade consistently fails by wear alone, without taking visible damage. For bevel down planes this is usually 30-35 degrees.

If you only have to remove wear (slight rounding of the egde), and not deal with removing chips, then sharpening is relatively quick and painless.

[Derek Cohen]

Derek, could you please share the source of that 7* clearance recommendation?

Leonard Lee: "The Complete Guide to Sharpening" (That is Rob Lee's dad).


Derek, how often do you usually sharpen? I mean if PM-V11 was capable of 60 shavings cross-grain, why not to raise that number to 100 shavings?
For instance I'm occasional weekend woodworker and need to clean up the sink to sharpen. Preparations and cleaning up the mess after sharpening takes time and I'm certainly trying to sharpen several tools at once. So I usually hesitate to sharpen weekly, more like every other week.


Alexander, I have no idea how often I sharpen.I am fortunate to have a workshop with running water. I sharpen when it is needed. It is a long time since I compared the longevity of blade steels. I have no interest in this much of the time. Still, I do have blades which are O1, and it is very obvious that they do not hold an edge as long as the PM-V11.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[David Eisenhauer]

Alexander - I just read a story from Paul Sellers' blog where he describes the mentor in the shop Paul was apprenticed to sharpening his plane three times in an hour and a half session of cleaning the surface of some oak timber. As I understood the story, there was no real roughing, flattening or straightening work done, just cleaning up the surface of the timber for immediate use. Each sharpening session (using a coarse/fine oilstone and then hand stropping) lasted approximately two minutes or so.

[Kees Heiden]

Hi Jessica

I've not tried a 5 degree backbevel on a BU plane. In theory, this would take the clearance angle close to the 7 degrees recommended as the lower limit. In practice, I have never found that a 25 degree bevel angle needed strengthening on a BU plane. I have used a wide range of steels and typically hard and abrasive woods. The low cutting angle and force vectors in this BU set up appear to reduce the stresses at the bevel edge. This is different from the force vectors of a BD plane with a common angle (45 degree) bed.

This comparison of two shooting planes illustrates the difference: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/LVShootingPlane.html

Regards from Perth

Derek

In a bevel up plane, bedding 12 degrees, a 25 degree bevel angle gives you a cutting angle of 37 degrees. That is a lot less then the typical cutting angle from a bevel down plane, 45 degrees. I guess the difference you saw in edge life is due to this difference in cutting angle, not because of the orientation of the bevel. Physically seen it doesn't matter if the bevel points up or down, because all cutting is being done within a few tenths of a mm, much less then the length of the bevel.

[Derek Cohen]

Kees, I agree that a cutting angle is the same for the wood whether BU or BD. Still, there are two factors to take note of in the shooting experiment. The first is whether bed angle plays a role, regardless of cutting angle? I am not a structural engineer and cannot answer this. The second is that the BU plane will always present a lower cutting angle, and the bevel angle can be lower as well. Raising the bevel angle on the BD plane does not increase edge longevity. So, is longevity due to the lower bed angle, or the lower cutting angle?

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Warren Mickley]

I recommend sharpening every 20 minutes or even more often. That way you will get used to using sharp irons instead of being used to dull irons. When you can notice the difference in sharpness that 5 or 10 minutes of use makes you will start to have some judgement as to when to sharpen.

[David Eisenhauer]

I am a firm believer that setting up some type of a sharpening station (of whatever type that works best for you and your own restrictions as to what can be set up) that allows the stones to be as ready for immediate use as possible is a big part of sharpening at the appropriate time. Make it as easy to sharpen as possible and it will be that less of a chore. Also, FOR ME, not using multiple blades until such time as they all are dull and consequently all need sharpening works best rather than needing to sharpen lots of blades in the middle of a project. I tend to do my "lots" of sharpening at the beginning, end or completion of a milestone task of a project. However, I do grant that each to his own works best.

[Simon MacGowen]

I recommend sharpening every 20 minutes or even more often. That way you will get used to using sharp irons instead of being used to dull irons. When you can notice the difference in sharpness that 5 or 10 minutes of use makes you will start to have some judgement as to when to sharpen.

+++1 on the honing before-it-gets-too-dull advice.

Implied in that advice is that you must learn how to sharpen your blades free hand. The advice becomes a little less practical if you have to use a jig every time you stop and hone an edge. The easiest way from a learning point of view to sharpen free hand (which I don't like or use) is the Paul Sellers's way.

Whatever free-hand method you use, from taking out the blade to honing it to replacing it in the plane, each free-hand sharpening should take just a couple minutes or so (especially if you go with the micro-bevel approach).

Simon

[Kees Heiden]

Kees, I agree that a cutting angle is the same for the wood whether BU or BD. Still, there are two factors to take note of in the shooting experiment. The first is whether bed angle plays a role, regardless of cutting angle? I am not a structural engineer and cannot answer this. The second is that the BU plane will always present a lower cutting angle, and the bevel angle can be lower as well. Raising the bevel angle on the BD plane does not increase edge longevity. So, is longevity due to the lower bed angle, or the lower cutting angle?

Regards from Perth

Derek

I think one should be exact in these descriptions. If you could get a bevel down plane with a 37 degree bedding angle, I suspect it would give the same edge life as a bevel up plane with 12 degree bedding and 25 degree sharpening angle. I can't prove it, because I didn't ever test stuff like that, but technically there would be no reason for different behaviour.

Now, ebay is chockfull of bd planes with a 45 degree bedding and not a single one with 37 degrees. So you might say that the BU plane configuration leads to longer edge life, because it allows lower cutting angles. But that is more of a market issue then a technical one.

BTW, I do think that a close set chipbreaker leads to better results too, because it gives support really close to the edge, leading to less vibration. Another thing I can't really prove, but vibration is rarely good for a construction.

[Derek Cohen]

Kees, it is relevant to recall the context of my post being a reply to the OP, who was asking about the longevity of PM-V11 blades honed at different angles. My reply was, in effect, that a low cutting angle (bed, if you will) will outlast a high cutting angle (higher bed, if you will). However, specifically, a 25 degree bevel is too low for a BD plane (generally 45 degree bed), which requires a higher bevel angle (e.g. 30 degrees).

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Kees Heiden]

Now you are confusing things ;). Cutting angle is not bedding angle. You can skip all the aditional designators (bedding angle, bevel orientation) when you concentrate on cutting angle. The cutting angle is in the end the thing that determines cutting behaviour.

[Derek Cohen]

Kees, I suggest you re-read the earlier post I made. :)

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Alexander Zagubny]

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That's some frustration exercise, I'v just got two honed blades chipped in 5 minutes. All PM-V11 in the same BU jack.

Overall I have 3 blades, honed to 25*. First one that I have no questions to was in the plane for long time and I prepared almost all stock for saw bench. Then I got to a board with large knot and realized I need sharper blade. So I dropped in fresh blade and flattened one side. That happened to be the blade I was talking about in the start of the thread. After one side it got chipped all over the edge! I'm super suspicious about that blade.

Ok, I dropped in another fresh blade and flipped the board. After flattening I got edge chipped in one place. Frustrating.
Well, chipping in one place I might understand. I even found some wood filler later on that board face. Probably that's the filler or some sand got into it.

Third blade is magnetic, by the way. Why is it magnetic, is it common or not? I thought it is expected to de-magnetize during hardening and also magnetic properties might be nasty during sharpening...

[Jim Koepke]

Knots do nasty things to any blade. Some pine knots are harder than lignum vitae.

jtk

[Vincent Tai]

Firstly, the non magnetic state during hardening is at temperatures literally 1400 degrees (Fahrenheit) higher than your normal day to day house temperature. It is temporary since the steel returns to "normal" temperatures. All normal steel will stick to a magnet. Things get magnetized. Also normal. Not too hard to live with. People used magnetic racks to keep their tools, knives etc up on the wall. All of these items have been through heat treatment. Still sticking just fine.

What sort of bevel situation are you at? actual micro bevel at 25*? Or attempting to polish the whole bevel at 25*? The latter is hard to pull off considering the hardness and wear resistance of PMV-11, and the width of the bevel at 25*.

Why are you trying to prep boards like that with a 25* blade anyways. Some of my edges for end grain don't even need to be that low. Only creating more effort for yourself in terms of sharpening. 25 for stock prep is fine if you're okay with the inevitable quick edge damage that will come and especially when you run into a knot. Jim state that his irons show similar chipping when running into knots. All this and wood filler or even sand; it's like you're actually trying to kill the edge.

The first plane I bought was a BU jack. It's first task was to prep many many pine boards like yours. More knots, no varnish or sand though. I was running to the stones more frequently then I liked, but I wanted to keep that 25*. Eventually I had to give in. Raised the bevel to a more appropriate angle and things started clicking. Years later the bevel is now slightly higher as I usually plane very interlocked grain often but I keep low angle 25* blades for the appropriate tasks. Derek mentioned that at 25* the blades are fine; this is absolutely true, and true of any bevel in the normal sphere of accepted bevel angles. Yet every bevel has its own performance and life balance, A 25* bevel is very nice for effortless end grain work or face grain planing, until it wears beyond it's capabilities. A 50* bevel is very nice for smoothing some hellishly interlocked grain, yet not as effortless as a 25* bevel when you try to shoot some end grain with it. There is a relative balance one must be aware of.

On Derek's site, there is a comprehensive writeup of shooting planes and their blades. Probably one of the few objective ones of its kind; at least with this level of depth. A test with a 25* PMV-11 blade is included. You can see how after 60 strokes there is a little amount of visible wear, the blade is still quite capable of going through more end grain but the wear is now noticeable, with a few faint lines apparent on the end grain of the board used as the test piece; a sign of this little bit of wear. Now note that this was 60 strokes through a 6 inch width board 21mm thick. Now look at your situation. 60 "strokes" on a board where the strokes are cutting through much more material; face grain and knots; this is a lot more wear. The knot on your board by itself is a similarly sized area to the end grain of the board in Derek's test. There's more than one knot and a whole lot more face grain. So we've established this one pass on your much larger board is much more wear on the blade, and you are probably trying to take thicker shavings. Now in 5 minutes I can take many more passes then 60, Im sure you can too. Go to Derek's site and take a look at the wear from 60 strokes on a piece that small and then look at the size of your board and the amount of passes you take in comparison. I'm sure things will click. You should be able to visualize how much wear will quickly form on your blades especially with every pass that hits a knot. I haven't even included the sand or wood filler as a factor yet, these are incredibly damaging to the steel. I have Stanley plane blades lying around which are ruined from some truly heinous tasks that include planing materials containing these sort of things. Lots of grinding and rehab needed to remove the steel where the abrasives have left deep scratches into the back of the blade. If you hone and strop often that will certainly help.

I think there have been at least four separate posts to this thread specifically stating the importance of good sharpening practices and or frequent sharpening. I will echo these here again. Also, all damage must be removed 100% or you will just get accelerated wear again. This level of damage on your blades would take some effort on stones, and a 25 degree bevel grows big rapidly. Which means even more time needed honing. Which means if you are stopping prematurely on the lower grits you are allowing the remnants of wear to just accelerate rapidly once you start planing again.

Please take the time to read this post and have a look at Derek's writeup http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/LVShootingPlane.html
And take the few seconds to compare his pictures and their content and the board/situation you're in.

If you make actual changes this time and then significantly short edge life is still a problem then you can take a look at the possibility that the blade itself is the problem. However this is very unlucky, LV is not an unskilled worker staring into a roaring coke fire guessing a range of temperature and time and pulling the blade out and quenching in some carcinogenic automative fluid. The steps/temps/soak time required to harden the more highly alloyed steels serve almost as an increased QC measure. But sometimes a couple slip out, miss tempering, who knows. Highly doubtful though. Contacting LV is the quick way to rectify this, but do take a look and change some of your practices and/or expectations before leaping to this conclusion. I have no idea why you would expect a blade to survive repeated encounters through knots like that and with a 25* bevel no less.

Best of luck,

Vincent

[Alexander Zagubny]

Ok, seems asking questions at sawmillcreek might be frustrating as well :)

Although I like Veritas and using their tools is mostly pure joy, pitfalls might happen. I had bad experience with one blade that was replaced by axminster. Since it was international delivery, axminster didn't request return for the blade. I contacted LV directly and sent them that blade upon my expense. Later I got confirmation that there was some problem with metal.

To whom it may concern, I'm going to contact axminster regarding that blade as well. This blade is way below expectations and cannot be compared to its twins. Now I have all blades marked so I can track their performance.