Gang cut first dovetails in anger or no?

[Tony Wilkins]

Working on my Dutch toolchest and it’s going have my first non-practice dovetails (though I messed up a run at it earlier when trying to cope out the waste). The Schwarz and at least one other place I’ve seen recommends doing them this way and in another forum it was recommended not doing so on your first dovetails.

So what are y’all’s thoughts on the subject?

[brian zawatsky]

I don’t like to gang cut my tails. On the occasions that I get to do some pure hand tool wood working, I prefer to relax and be present for each cut, each chop, every shaving. It’s kinda zen for me, and I don’t like to be in a hurry. Every time I see Schwartz sawing away like a jack rabbit on meth It makes my skin crawl.

That said, it’s possible that there is an added benefit to gang cutting aside from speed, maybe someone will have that to add.

[Simon MacGowen]

That said, it’s possible that there is an added benefit to gang cutting aside from speed, maybe someone will have that to add.

Gang cutting gives a long line to follow, in addition to getting two tails done at the same time (coping the waste is also done with two tails together).

In a skilled hand, the dovetail results will be the same, gang cutting or not unless speed matters.

Simon

[Jim Koepke]

Gang cutting dovetails makes keeping square a bit easier.

jtk

[Simon MacGowen]

it was recommended not doing so on your first dovetails.

So what are y’all’s thoughts on the subject?

Unless the woodworker has not done dovetails for some time and does not plan to do a bit of warm-up cuts, I don't see any reason why such recommendation makes sense. If I do gang cutting, I always start with the first tails and then the rest of the tails.

Simon

[Noah Magnuson]

I don’t like to gang cut my tails. On the occasions that I get to do some pure hand tool wood working, I prefer to relax and be present for each cut, each chop, every shaving. It’s kinda zen for me, and I don’t like to be in a hurry. Every time I see Schwartz sawing away like a jack rabbit on meth It makes my skin crawl.

That said, it’s possible that there is an added benefit to gang cutting aside from speed, maybe someone will have that to add.

Fitting description of Schwartz in almost everything he does. I laughed.

[Frederick Skelly]

Most people see a noticeable difference between their first couple dovetails and the ones they cut after a few more tries. With that in mind, I wouldn't start out gang cutting. (Gang cutting is really about speeding up the process. When you're new at dovetailing, accuracy and consistency are more important than speed IMO.) Do several practice dovetails on scrap. Then cut your "real" dovetails separately.

I recently finished doing about 90 dovetails just for practice. Took multiple weekends, but I became obsessive about it and couldnt stop until I got it right, consistently. I was at around #20 or so before I tried gang cutting. That's just me. But I wouldn't start out gang cutting on a real project. Get the hang of it first.

In case it helps, this thread tries to capture what I learned while doing all those dovetails, and what others added to my notes: DOVETAIL CUTTING LINK (https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?263892-Lessons-Learned-Hand-Cutting-Dovetails&highlight=Dovetails)

[John Schtrumpf]

If doing tails first:

1) Only mark the baseline for the tails on the inside faces of the boards.
2) Put the boards together outside face to outside face (for no tear out, and so that the baselines on the inside faces are visible).
3) Gang saw the tails.
4) Separate the boards, then on the outside faces, mark the baseline only for the waste.
5) Remove the waste.

Result: No baseline marks to remove.

[Simon MacGowen]

1)
Result: No baseline marks to remove.

Good point.

I leave all the gauge lines behind -- just my style.

Simon

[Derek Cohen]

Tony, just how many ends are you cutting? If 20 or so, then I would support gang cutting. If 2, even 4 ends for a chest, then do them singularly. It only makes some sense to do a few ends together if the boards are thin, and ganging them up makes it less likely for coarser teeth to catch. Besides, there is so much pleasure in sawing dovetails, why rob yourself of the opportunity? :)

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Tony Wilkins]

If doing tails first:

1) Only mark the baseline for the tails on the inside faces of the boards.
2) Put the boards together outside face to outside face (for no tear out, and so that the baselines on the inside faces are visible).
3) Gang saw the tails.
4) Separate the boards, then on the outside faces, mark the baseline only for the waste.
5) Remove the waste.

Result: No baseline marks to remove.

Those are some great tips.

[Andrew Hughes]

I’ve tried gang cutting tails and I’m terrible at it. I think my saw cut thin boards better

[Tony Wilkins]

Tony, just how many ends are you cutting? If 20 or so, then I would support gang cutting. If 2, even 4 ends for a chest, then do them singularly. It only makes some sense to do a few ends together if the boards are thin, and ganging them up makes it less likely for coarser teeth to catch. Besides, there is so much pleasure in sawing dovetails, why rob yourself of the opportunity? :)

Regards from Perth

Derek

I’m only cutting the two sides. I actually do like sawing the dovetails, I just haven’t found a method of removing waste I like. Too much chopping with chisels alone, too many broken fret saw blades, and tried my TFWW bowsaw today for the first time and it was tough to turn.

[Simon MacGowen]

too many broken fret saw blades, and tried my TFWW bowsaw today for the first time and it was tough to turn.

Did you try a coping saw (the blade is much stronger, and the turning is gentle as you saw down at a slope)?

Simon

[Tony Wilkins]

Did you try a coping saw (the blade is much stronger, and the turning is gentle as you saw down at a slope)?

Simon

That will be next I think.

[brian zawatsky]

I use a $20 Olson coping saw that I bought on Amazon with good results. I’ve toyed with the idea of buying a fancy Knew Concepts fret saw but I just can’t justify the need when my cheapo does just fine.

[Derek Cohen]

I’m only cutting the two sides. I actually do like sawing the dovetails, I just haven’t found a method of removing waste I like. Too much chopping with chisels alone, too many broken fret saw blades, and tried my TFWW bowsaw today for the first time and it was tough to turn.

Hi Tony, there are a couple of tips I can pass on which might change your experience.

The first one is that if you are breaking fretsaw blades, then you are (pulling them ... I assume) too hard. Loosen up and pull g-e-n-t-l-y. Watch the blade, and do not let it deflect much.

When you do this, you gain a great deal of control over the cut. This means you can saw within a mm or two of the baseline, which leaves very little waste to remove ...

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/ThroughDovetails3_html_m46d81eff.jpg

The second tip is a key to maintaining a straight baseline, and it also makes it easier to chop out the remaining waste.

Before fretsawing the waste, deepen and then undercut the line at the baseline to create a chisel wall ...

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/ThroughDovetails3_html_6ebe88a1.jpg

Only fretsaw after this is done. You will wind up with this ...

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/ThroughDovetails3_html_236c5ff2.jpg

Chopping 1mm slices to the midpoint is how you finish off ...

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/ThroughDovetails3_html_2a161e0e.jpg

Easy peasy :)

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Tony Wilkins]

Hi Tony, there are a couple of tips I can pass on which might change your experience.

The first one is that if you are breaking fretsaw blades, then you are (pulling them ... I assume) too hard. Loosen up and pull g-e-n-t-l-y. Watch the blade, and do not let it deflect much.

When you do this, you gain a great deal of control over the cut. This means you can saw within a mm or two of the baseline, which leaves very little waste to remove ...

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/ThroughDovetails3_html_m46d81eff.jpg

The second tip is a key to maintaining a straight baseline, and it also makes it easier to chop out the remaining waste.

Before fretsawing the waste, deepen and then undercut the line at the baseline to create a chisel wall ...

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/ThroughDovetails3_html_6ebe88a1.jpg

Only fretsaw after this is done. You will wind up with this ...

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/ThroughDovetails3_html_236c5ff2.jpg

Chopping 1mm slices to the midpoint is how you finish off ...

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/ThroughDovetails3_html_2a161e0e.jpg

Easy peasy :)

Regards from Perth

Derek

Great stuff as usual Derek

[Jim Koepke]

One reason to read dovetail threads forever is there might be an explanation of something seen before but explained or documented slightly different. BANG, something all of a sudden clicks.

By spending a few seconds more making a knife wall, many more can be saved on the next step.

Also the technique of watching the fret saw blade for flex.

Thanks Derek,

jtk

[Tony Wilkins]

One reason to read dovetail threads forever is there might be an explanation of something seen before but explained or documented slightly different. BANG, something all of a sudden clicks.

By spending a few seconds more making a knife wall, many more can be saved on the next step.

Also the technique of watching the fret saw blade for flex.

Thanks Derek,

jtk

I read Derek’s site a lot and I didn’t remember that last bit of pictorial. I think it will be very helpful. Now all I need is the energy to go back out to the shop. The spirit is eager but the flesh is weak to paraphrase.

[Tony Wilkins]

Bonus question
As far as the sides of the Dutch tool chest, the inside faces would be the reference faces, yes?

[John Schtrumpf]

Bonus question
As far as the sides of the Dutch tool chest, the inside faces would be the reference faces, yes?

Yes, that is how I do it. The inside I want to be flat / straight /square, as that is where I am fitting / referencing other parts and pieces. The outside just has to look good.