Plasma tv tripping arc fault breaker

[Jon Nuckles]

We just did a remodel and our electrician put in arc fault breakers on the circuit that supplies the outlets in our family room. We have a plasma tv that was made in 2007 and it has caused the breaker to trip repeatedly. None of the other equipment causes a problem and I have been using an extension cord from a kitchen outlet (GFCI circuit) for the tv as a temporary solution. A little online research reveals that plasma televisions tripping arc fault protected circuits is a common problem. I was going to treat this as a good excuse to buy a new LCD tv, but went shopping last weekend and decided, for a lot of reasons, to wait on the upgrade.

Now I need to solve the tripping issue to get rid of the extension cord. I can think of two possibilities, but I don’t love either one. First, I could switch the breaker to a GFCI. Apparently, however, AFCI is required by code for this room. The other option is to run the television cord through a 1” conduit that I had the electrician put in the wall before the closed cell foam insulation was sprayed in the stud bays. I’d have to cut the plug off the cord to fish it through the conduit and into my basement. I could then wire on a new plug and hook it with an extension cord to a gfci circuit in the basement. My concern is whether there is any danger of overheating with the insulated cord in the conduit. I also have an hdmi cable in the conduit, which might increase the risk of overheating and maybe create signal interference?

Can anyone suggest a different solution or set my mind at ease on one of these two?

Thank you.

[Jim Becker]

Honestly, if you can make due with the current extension cord for about a month and a half, you'll be spot on timing-wise for holiday sale pricing on a new set that will not only solve the problem you are experiencing, but also give you a better picture with far less power consumption. :) A lot of us do run cords through a wall for mounted TVs, however...not at all uncommon.

[Paul F Franklin]

You can try adding an AC line filter between TV and outlet. Something like: https://www.amazon.com/APC-2-Outlet-Mount-Power-Filter/dp/B000OF4R8C

You are not looking for a surge suppressor but an AC line noise filter. The AFCI trips because the TV is generating noise on the line that looks like the arcing waveform the breaker is designed to detect. It's OK if the unit also includes surge suppression, but the filter is what you likely need.

I don't have experience with the unit liked to above, but used a similar filter on some exercise equipment that kept tripping the AFCI and it worked like a charm.

[Roger Feeley]

Ditto on the filter idea. I was thinking more radically about a Uninterruptable Power Supply (UPS) that should do that same thing. But I like the filter idea a lot better.

[Wade Lippman]

How many family rooms don't have AFCI? How many of them suffer fires?

[Arthur Fleming]

How many family rooms don't have AFCI? How many of them suffer fires?
Wade, you speak the truth, but alas not an option if you want to stay code legal, (Some of us may not be totally code legal)

[Wade Lippman]

Wade, you speak the truth, but alas not an option if you want to stay code legal, (Some of us may not be totally code legal)

There are no code police. I certainly wouldn't do anything dangerous; but what's going to happen here? They don't suddenly burst into flame; they slowly deteriorate visibly.
I've only ever seen ONE damaged outlet and it was an ancient 2 wire; probably 60 years old.

I don't know if my 12 year old Plasma TV trips a AFCI as it has never seen one. I can take it into bedroom and find out.:)

[Doug Garson]

I think the code police are called insurance companies. Don't know this for a fact but I suspect at least some insurance companies might challenge a claim if you had a fire after a renovation that didn't meet code. If you don't have a renovation you are probably grandfathered into the code in effect when the house was built.

[Paul F Franklin]

Older back stabbed receptacles are notorious for developing loose connections over time, leading to increased resistance, which leads to heat, which deteriorates the insulation, which can lead to arcing, and yes, fire.

There are, on average, about 50,000 residential fires per year in the US attributed to electrical causes, leading to 500 deaths and 1.3 billion in property damage.

But the AFCI is not only intended to protect against failed receptacles; it's also to protect against shorts most commonly caused by deteriorated insulation. Age and heat deteriorate the wire insulation and mice love to chew on wires as well. I've worked on older houses where the insulation on the wires was so brittle the slightest disturbance of the wires caused the insulation to crumble off.

I've long ago replaced all the cheap back-stabbed receptacles and switches in my house. And as I remodel areas I've been upgrading to AFCI breakers and interconnected smoke alarms. Cheap protection if you ask me.

[Wade Lippman]

Older back stabbed receptacles are notorious for developing loose connections over time, leading to increased resistance, which leads to heat, which deteriorates the insulation, which can lead to arcing, and yes, fire.

There are, on average, about 50,000 residential fires per year in the US attributed to electrical causes, leading to 500 deaths and 1.3 billion in property damage.

But the AFCI is not only intended to protect against failed receptacles; it's also to protect against shorts most commonly caused by deteriorated insulation. Age and heat deteriorate the wire insulation and mice love to chew on wires as well. I've worked on older houses where the insulation on the wires was so brittle the slightest disturbance of the wires caused the insulation to crumble off.

I've long ago replaced all the cheap back-stabbed receptacles and switches in my house. And as I remodel areas I've been upgrading to AFCI breakers and interconnected smoke alarms. Cheap protection if you ask me.

Yes, if he had a renovation and left 75 year old wiring in it, then his wires may have deteriorated. OP, is that what you did?

Okay, 50,000 fires. Lets say half would have been prevented by a AFCI. Maybe 5,000,000,000 outlets in the US not protected by a AFCI. So, one chance in 200,000 of a fire. Much higher in a building over 50 years old. Much lower in a building under 50 years old. OP, which are you?

My old house had all back stabbed outlets. I replaced 2 or 3 when they failed. None had any damage, they just didn't make connections anymore. How many of the ones you replaced showed damage?

I am not belittling code requirements. It is just that virtually every family room in the country does not have AFCI breakers. If he forgoes the new TV, he will be in no more danger than anyone else (or me). Running his extension cord will create exactly the same danger as swapping out the AFCI; probably a great deal more.

[Wade Lippman]

I think the code police are called insurance companies. Don't know this for a fact but I suspect at least some insurance companies might challenge a claim if you had a fire after a renovation that didn't meet code.

Document that has happened. People say it all the time, but I have never heard of it happening.
And since it is only an issue in event of a exceptionally improbable incident...

[Doug Garson]

As I said in my post I don't know it for a fact but here's a quote from an insurance company web site that supports the statement:

" In addition, your policy might not cover losses or damage that result from the faulty wiring. Even if you would normally be covered for something under your policy, you may not recover anything on your claim due to the possible attribution of the damage to faulty workmanship."
http://www.cfmutual.ca/faulty-wiring-is-a-big-threat-to-your-home-but-your-insurance-may-not-cover-it/

Here's another quote from an insurance organization:
"Similarly, doing DIY jobs like updating plumbing or electrical work incorrectly will lead to denied homeowner insurance claims too—an electrical fire or water damage due to mistakes can occur easily if you don’t know exactly what you’re doing. If something like a fire consumed your whole home and your insurer found you hadn’t sought the service of an expert, imagine the loss you’d suffer if that claim was denied. That’s an expensive mistake worth thousands upon thousands—and no electrician charges $200K to update wiring. In comparison, their prices seem like a bargain."
http://www.insurancequotes.org/renters/3-major-diy-mistakes-that-can-affect-insurance/

Agreed, these are not documented cases and my just be scare tactics by the insurance industry but they sound reasonable to me.

[Jim Becker]

One of the factors that brought the requirement for ARC-fault breakers into code is the excessive use of extension cords which can become damaged or frayed in use. Initially, bedrooms were targeted...we had to accommodate that when we built our addition...but at that point, we were not required to have them for rooms like our media room, etc. It sounds like the requirement is broader at this point.

[Paul F Franklin]

It sounds like the requirement is broader at this point.

Yes, each of the last several code revisions have broadened the areas where AFCI protection is required. I believe as of 2014 code only bathrooms, garages, and unfinished basements are exempt. Those areas do require GFCI protection. Of course, many areas don't adopt the latest code revisions quickly, so worth checking with local code officials to see what is required in one's area.

[Wade Lippman]

Yes, each of the last several code revisions have broadened the areas where AFCI protection is required. I believe as of 2014 code only bathrooms, garages, and unfinished basements are exempt.

I checked on this and found it also requires AFCI protection on lighting circuits. I hope they have more grounding bars on panel boxes.

[Leo Graywacz]

Swap the breaker with another. Nothing saying it isn't a defective breaker.

[Paul F Franklin]

Not really an issue. The circuit neutral now goes to the breaker and the pigtail from the breaker goes to the neutral bar, so same number of connections to the bar.
Some manufacturers have added a plug in neutral bus that the breaker connects to when inserted into the panel, so you don't even have to deal with the pigtails. Of course that is only for new construction, not retrofits.

[Jon Nuckles]

Thanks for all the input. Our electrical panel is new, as are all but a couple of circuits in areas of the house that were not remodeled. In the Chicago area, all of the wiring has to be in metal conduit and ours is. Not even armored cable is allowed except for short “whips” for things like undercabinet lighting. With the conduit, we have no risk of animals chewing the wires. The electrician wired all of the outlets and none are back-stabbed. I’m sure we’d be fine with either of my solutions, but I’d prefer a solution that follows code so I think I’ll look into the filter idea.

Replacing the tv was my favored solution, but the salesman I talked to discouraged me because he said the old plasma’s picture would be better than all but the most expensive led tvs (the OLED ones). I figure he has no incentive to talk me out of spending money, so I tend to believe him. I am not a tech guy, and so try to find a reliable source to follow. There’s a New York Times related web site (wire cutter, iirc) that makes product recommendations and they picked a Vizio tv. The salesman I talked to said Vizio had poor “build quality,” but he might say that because his store does not carry Vizio (he says the store doesn’t carry Vizio because of the lower quality). The Vizio is much less expensive than the models he recommended, but I did find a lot of negative reviews of the Vizio on Amazon — along with a lot of positive ones. I’ve also heard that buying a bargain tv on Black Friday is a bad idea because the manufacturers bring out lower quality TVs that they sell only at that time at rock bottom prices to capture the bargain seekers. Or do all televisions have better discounts around the holidays or Super Bowl? If that’s the case, maybe I’ll look again around that time. Anyway, thanks to all who responded!

[Arthur Fleming]

There are no code police. I certainly wouldn't do anything dangerous; but what's going to happen here? They don't suddenly burst into flame; they slowly deteriorate visibly.
I've only ever seen ONE damaged outlet and it was an ancient 2 wire; probably 60 years old.

I don't know if my 12 year old Plasma TV trips a AFCI as it has never seen one. I can take it into bedroom and find out.:)
Here in Massachusetts, they review the National Electrical Code, make any changes they consider necessary (?), and then pass it as Massachusetts General Law, also known as the Massachusetts Electrical Code, and for violations that lead to death, injury, or high damages, they do prosecute. Arcfault technology is a 2 billion dollar a year industry spread among 4 companies. kinda seems like it’s been driven more by profits than safety. First generation technology was horrible, breaker would trip on fluorescent lights, vacuums, etc, couldn’t be installed adjacent to each other in panels, and so far from the teachers at our code update classes, the numbers of fires are not decreasing as fast as they promised when they made their proposal to change the code, and make them mandatory. I swear by GFI’s, wouldn’t go without them where they are needed, but arcfaults haven’t lived up to their promise, in my opinion. They ARE code, here in Ma. And I’m not saying they don’t trip on arcs, they just have too many nuisance trips, too many being swapped out as soon as the inspector leaves. Got a friend who’s miter saw will no longer run on any of his outlets, because they’ve been changed to arcfault breakers. He doesn’t want to buy a new one without knowing that it will operate on the arcfault breakers. This was tried on 3 different, brand new circuits. Here in Ma. I would estimate that at least 90% of all duplex receptacles sold by the borgs, are illegal where they get installed. Not arcfault protected, not tamper protected (shutters), not inspected.

[Wade Lippman]

I would estimate that at least 90% of all duplex receptacles sold by the borgs, are illegal where they get installed. Not arcfault protected, not tamper protected (shutters), not inspected.

I think replacing an outlet does not require meeting current code; only if you changed the circuit somehow would it have to be AFCI.

[Arthur Fleming]

I think replacing an outlet does not require meeting current code; only if you changed the circuit somehow would it have to be AFCI.
In Massachusetts, you replace a receptacle in a dwelling, you must bring it up to code. That is to be legal, it must be arc fault protected, and gfi protected, and tamper resistant, depending upon it’s location in said dwelling. If you choose to buy a receptacle with all 3 of those protections built in, it’s about $35. This will allow you to cover all receptacles downline in the circuit with AFI/GFI protection.

[Wade Lippman]

I think replacing an outlet does not require meeting current code; only if you changed the circuit somehow would it have to be AFCI.

Then again I could be wrong. Googling suggests that replacing an outlet IS enough to require meeting current code. That brings up the question of why stores are allowed to sell outlets that can't be legally used.

[Jim Becker]

Then again I could be wrong. Googling suggests that replacing an outlet IS enough to require meeting current code. That brings up the question of why stores are allowed to sell outlets that can't be legally used.
I would think that this would be something extremely difficult to enforce. Renovation projects which trigger code compliance typically have permitting/inspection so enforcement is clear. Someone buying an outlet from a big box...or even better, online...isn't going to be observable and I suspect most homeowners can't even spell "AFCI"... ;)

I personally always try to insure I do work to code no matter what, but I'm not a typical homeowner.

[Alan Caro]

John Nuckles,

Plasma TV's can draw a lot of current- typically 300-400W and a very large one can use 600-700W. Internally they run at very high voltages and the plasma can heat to over 2000F. Years ago - 8-10?, they were prohibited for sale in California and Samsung stopped making them altogether in I think in 2013-14. It's too bad as Plasma have the best black and lack of grain as they have a much higher equivalent refresh rate than PCD.

Possibilities:

1. A long extension cord can present quite a lot of resistance. Find the heaviest gauge cord - 12ga. if possible and run the shortest distance possible.

2. The other thing is that kitchens draw the most power in a house, along with air conditioning, so some of the circuit tripping may be as the result of overload when something is running in the kitchen at the same time as TV. A lot of older houses have a circuit that is shared between the kitchen and an adjacent room such as a family room. That is the case in my house- 1968 and the microwave alone draws up to 1600W -the typical rating per outlet. See if you can find a nearby circuit-extension cord distance-that is not running anything in the kitchen. Also, the way plasma TV power supplies create the ionized gas- plasma requires a sudden shock to start and that will make ground fault breakers unhappy.

3. The real cure is your plan to buy a new and LED set. I bought a Samsung 40" 4K smart TV as a computer monitor about eight months ago for $330- a Best Buy sale. It has a very good picture at 3180 X 2160- Bluray resolution. It uses about 80W.

Alan Caro

[Jon Nuckles]

Thank you, Alan, for the information and suggestions. The energy use and the heat it puts out is another reason I want to replace the plasma and likely will before next summer. For the upcoming winter, the extra heat is not unwelcome! It really would make an effective heater for a small room.

Because we just remodeled, our panel and almost all of wiring is new. The family room outlets have their own circuit. Our kitchen outlets, which are on a GFCI rather than an AFCI breaker, do not trip with the plasma plugged in through an extension cord. A workable temporary solution other than aesthetics and the tripping hazard.

[Brian Elfert]

Then again I could be wrong. Googling suggests that replacing an outlet IS enough to require meeting current code. That brings up the question of why stores are allowed to sell outlets that can't be legally used.

Big box stores sell all kinds of things that may not be code legal in that state. Minnesota code doesn't allow flexible connectors for the water connection to water heaters. Big box stores probably carry around a dozen different styles of flexible connectors.

[Brian Elfert]

Thank you, Alan, for the information and suggestions. The energy use and the heat it puts out is another reason I want to replace the plasma and likely will before next summer. For the upcoming winter, the extra heat is not unwelcome! It really would make an effective heater for a small room.


I have a very nice plasma TV, but it is basically a small heater. It uses 400 watts! Most LCD TVs are inferior so I have no desire to replace the plasma until it dies. I would probably get OLED, but they are close to $2,000.