Chain hoist for equipment moving

[Michael Cummins]

I'm finalizing design for my new shop, which will be the 2nd floor of a garage. Def not ideal compared to what many of you enjoy, but I live in an urban area and that's the only way to get a decent space to work in (and we need the garage for cars as our area gets overrun with parking for all the local restaurants, etc).

Anyway, there are a few benefits - wood floor is a little nicer to stand on all day. Dust collection piping will be under floor and still able to be moved around. Dust collector and its noise will live in garage. Etc.

Big downside is obviously moving equipment and materials up and down. I plan on a tracksaw setup in the garage to break down sheet goods to rough size as necessary before taking them up the oversized stairs with 4x8 doors to make things reasonable to get up there. For equipment, my plan is to run a steel beam across the ceiling of the shop, with a hatch door in the floor of the shop. I can put a beam trolley up there, and a chain hoist with about a 20' lift, and pick up equipment right out of the bed of my truck and up into the shop, roll the trolley over, and set it on the floor/mobile base/etc.

I was wondering if anyone here has any expertise in sizing this beam, as well as recommendations for the trolley and chain hoist. I figure that the heaviest stuff I'd ever put up there is likely 1000-1500 pounds, most things 1000 or under. I thought it would be smart to size things for at least 1 Ton just for wiggle room. Does this seem reasonable?

Any suggestions on beam size required, or specific trolleys/hoists to use for this? I don't want junk, but also don't need super industrial quality, as likely they'll get used a couple dozen times and that's about it.

[Tom M King]

I see trolley's and chain hoists fairly often on CL. Finding one heavy enough shouldn't be a problem. Your metal supplier, where you buy the beam from, should be able to size the beam for you. It's just a point load, in the middle of the span, so will come right off a table. I'm sure you can find such tables online.

If you're going to use the chain hoist more than a few times, get an electric one. I have a small manual one for lifting the front of a riding mower with, to change, and sharpen blades, which requires only about a four foot lift. If I had to pull anything up higher than that very often, I'd be looking for one with a motor. The higher the capacity of the hoist, the more mechanical advantage there is, so means more chain to pull. The one in my tractor shed is the smallest one available, and it still takes longer than I would like.

[Michael Cummins]

One beam sizing source I found was this from Harrington, who makes chain hoists, etc. I was thinking that their specs probably account for the motion of the trolley, swinging hoist, etc better than just a point load rating from a building manual. Their stats are likely based on every day industrial usage, so I would think for my low level use, meeting the 1 Ton rating would be overkill. My span is 24' (about 22.5' unsupported), so the recommended beam size is S10x25.4 for both 20 and 25 foot spans. If the 20' span was the next size down, would probably think I could go down a beam size. Also if the 1/2 ton rating at the 25' span was a beam size down, maybe. But since both of those are still the same beam size, that might be what I need to go with?

https://www.harringtonhoists.com/tech_support/edocs/EDOC%200367%20rev02.pdf

[Eugene Dixon]

And then there is the design to support the beam, the load, and the safety factor. Find an engineer before you select a beam thinking it is simple.

[Michael Cummins]

I have an architect that will be doing that part. I'm looking for the function needed in the shop, which isn't really their expertise.

[Michael Cummins]

I don't plan on a lot of use, and don't really want a giant thing hanging there all the time. I might even remove the hoist from the trolley most of the time. Pretty much will only be used to bring in and out large equipment. Slow is not fun for that, but better than carrying it up stairs :-P

I looked on CL, there's stuff there but nothing right this moment that's quite what I'm looking for. Will set up some saved searches and keep an eye on it... but was also thinking of just buying new and not worrying about it, if the prices aren't too crazy.


I see trolley's and chain hoists fairly often on CL. Finding one heavy enough shouldn't be a problem. Your metal supplier, where you buy the beam from, should be able to size the beam for you. It's just a point load, in the middle of the span, so will come right off a table. I'm sure you can find such tables online.

If you're going to use the chain hoist more than a few times, get an electric one. I have a small manual one for lifting the front of a riding mower with, to change, and sharpen blades, which requires only about a four foot lift. If I had to pull anything up higher than that very often, I'd be looking for one with a motor. The higher the capacity of the hoist, the more mechanical advantage there is, so means more chain to pull. The one in my tractor shed is the smallest one available, and it still takes longer than I would like.

[Tom M King]

Without even looking at a chart, I'd feel fine with a 10", 25 pound per foot beam for what you're planning to do. Talk to your steel supplier. What you're wanting to know is nothing at all unusual. I built a new entrance for a church, over 20 years ago, and there is a 16 foot span with one corner of a big steeple structure held up at a point in the middle a beam that size, that was sized by an engineer. I had one of the local logger church members come to set the beam for us with a log loader.

[Jerry Bruette]

Any idea how you're going to get the S10x25.4 beam up into the shop? It's going to weigh 635#

[Charlie Velasquez]

And then there is the design to support the beam, the load, and the safety factor. Find an engineer before you select a beam thinking it is simple.
I have an architect that will be doing that part. I'm looking for the function needed in the shop, which isn't really their expertise.

I would forego the trolley system for this reason. A trolley can only travel linearly along the beam. From there you will probably be thinking mobile base, pallet jack, or similar.

You will have a relatively smooth floor. What purpose is there to move linearly first?
Remove the hatch, lift the equipment, replace the hatch, roll mobile base under (or pallet), lower the equipment.

You don't need: to size all the collar beams to support the main beam, a big enough main beam, a trolley rail, an expensive trolley.

Beef up one collar beam (you may want to raise that one up some on the ceiling rafters, but no more than 1/3 the height), a steel saddle for that collar beam (I say that because it would look "finished", in reality I just screwed a scrap piece of steel to the top and threw a chain over it), and a shackle.

In my case I doubled my 2x6 collar beam over a 16' span and added diagonals to my rafters. I did not feel comfortable with that span, so I added a removable doubled 2x4 upright brace on each side of my load. My pickup bed is only about 6' wide (edit: the outside of my Ford Ranger), so I have never had more than a 6' span. My greatest load was about 800 lbs with a 4' span, but there was no significant deflection.

p.s. what kind of floor/ceiling joist do you have that will support a 1500 lb piece of equipment, probably on only four wheels or feet?

[Peter Christensen]

My shop is above the garage too but it is almost a walk out daylight basement. Back is about 4 1/2' from the ground so I still have to lift it up to the double doors to get anything in, even from the pickup. Eventually I want to make a deck and I will either get forks for a tractor or put a jib crane on it to pick up the load and then swing it on to the deck. From there drag, carry or roll it into the shop. You could do a jib crane over your trap door.

[Tom M King]

A google search for hoist beam trolley brought up many, and they aren't that expensive.

[Michael Cummins]

Yeah, I feel like for light use like I'm looking at, it would be overkill. I'd rather spend a little more on overkilling the beam than pay an engineer a grand to save me $150 on the beam. But yeah, I have to figure out where I'm getting it from first, and I'll ask them, as well as my architect who can pull any of the load charts etc as needed. He'll have to spec the support for the beam anyway, but wanted to get a woodworker's perspective on the whole concept first...


Without even looking at a chart, I'd feel fine with a 10", 25 pound per foot beam for what you're planning to do. Talk to your steel supplier. What you're wanting to know is nothing at all unusual. I built a new entrance for a church, over 20 years ago, and there is a 16 foot span with one corner of a big steeple structure held up at a point in the middle a beam that size, that was sized by an engineer. I had one of the local logger church members come to set the beam for us with a log loader.

[Michael Cummins]

It will be installed during construction. Probably boomed directly into place and set on the pre-installed supports for it, but not sure exactly yet.

Will find a way. I also have to get the 125 pound per sheet Advantech 1 1/4" flooring up there. Obviously a different scale, but going to be a pain. At least I'll have a rock solid floor when I'm done though :)


Any idea how you're going to get the S10x25.4 beam up into the shop? It's going to weigh 635#

[Michael Cummins]

No collar beams, its a flat roof. 24' long I-joists will support the roof across the span. Once I have a beam solid enough to handle a point load in the middle of a span like that, probably already talking steel I beam anyway. Then a clamp to attach hoist. Then a hoist. Once I'm that far, why not be able to move it laterally for another $100? Also gets the hoist out of the way in the shop. Also, ceiling height in shop is 9'. Subtract beam height, then attachment to beam, then hoist, then rigging to support equipment, then equipment itself. Trap door will likely be 4' x 6' or so, hinged. I don't think I can lift a piece of equipment high enough to be able to put the door down under it. Also, to make that door openable without using the hoist, it probably won't be able to handle a 1500 pound load on it. It will be positioned in a walking area, not under where a large piece of equipment would go.

Might be able to do it with some LVLs, but would I really save much with that plan? Open to ideas, but roof has to be flat. Already pushing zoning to get a 2 story garage approved, can't go higher with roof line.

Plan for the floor is not 100% finalized (to be ironed out with architect still), but something like 24" deep open floor trusses with 1 1/4" Advantech flooring. Trusses on 16" center if I can (which is 12.5" open span with the trusses), or 12" on center if required. Advantech is crazy strong, so I think the 16 centers will work out fine.

Dust collection piping will run inside the open trusses and come up to machines from below - dust collector will live in back corner of garage to separate the noise, save some space, and make emptying bin a lot easier.




I would forego the trolley system for this reason. A trolley can only travel linearly along the beam. From there you will probably be thinking mobile base, pallet jack, or similar.

You will have a relatively smooth floor. What purpose is there to move linearly first?
Remove the hatch, lift the equipment, replace the hatch, roll mobile base under (or pallet), lower the equipment.

You don't need: to size all the collar beams to support the main beam, a big enough main beam, a trolley rail, an expensive trolley.

Beef up one collar beam (you may want to raise that one up some on the ceiling rafters, but no more than 1/3 the height), a steel saddle for that collar beam (I say that because it would look "finished", in reality I just screwed a scrap piece of steel to the top and threw a chain over it), and a shackle.

In my case I doubled my 2x6 collar beam over a 16' span and added diagonals to my rafters. I did not feel comfortable with that span, so I added a removable doubled 2x4 upright brace on each side of my load. My pickup bed is only about 6' wide (edit: the outside of my Ford Ranger), so I have never had more than a 6' span. My greatest load was about 800 lbs with a 4' span, but there was no significant deflection.

p.s. what kind of floor/ceiling joist do you have that will support a 1500 lb piece of equipment, probably on only four wheels or feet?

[Michael Cummins]

Ah, I'm not the only crazy one with an upstairs shop :)

From what I've seen, a jib crane over 1000 lb capacity is hard to come by without dropping some serious coin. Then I'd have to have the floor engineered to handle a 1500 pound load at the point of the jib mount, rather than distributed over a couple/few floor trusses as the equipment will be on the floor. Then its in the way in my shop, or I have to get a wall mount or something, and again, serious engineering to make that fly. Don't think I save much money and lose options.

One thing I am looking for, is a hitch mount jib crane with a 1500 lb capacity for loading equipment etc off site into the truck. Again, only finding up to 1000 lb capacity, at fully retracted boom length. Drops to 500 or less extended to length I'd need for most equipment of this size.


My shop is above the garage too but it is almost a walk out daylight basement. Back is about 4 1/2' from the ground so I still have to lift it up to the double doors to get anything in, even from the pickup. Eventually I want to make a deck and I will either get forks for a tractor or put a jib crane on it to pick up the load and then swing it on to the deck. From there drag, carry or roll it into the shop. You could do a jib crane over your trap door.

[Jerry Bruette]

Maybe a Gantry Crane would be the way to go. You could pick your equipment and roll it into place, break down the crane and store it in the corner when it's not being used. No need to engineer your building to hold up a giant I beam.

[Michael Cummins]

Other than storing the thing in my small space, this does have some advantages... no need to get a 635 lb beam into place, or structure to support it. Once lifted, the equipment could be rolled into place in the shop (assuming I can get the 4'x8' gantry through the rest of the shop). Portability potentially, though I think most of them are 400lb+, so not easily portable. Would be nice to be able to take the thing with me to pick up new equipment too, but that's probably a big ask.

Storing the thing is def my biggest hangup. Only have a little over 600 sq ft, and I like big equipment. Want every inch to be as useful as possible.

Will give this some thought though. Wonder if I can get an easily broken down gantry with a 3/4-1 Ton rating that's a bit narrower than the usual and therefore lighter? Think as long as it could span the width of a truck bed, that would be more than sufficient, but that really only gets you down to 7 ft if you want it to be a tight fit. If it was easily broken down and light enough, I could potentially store it elsewhere when not needed.


Maybe a Gantry Crane would be the way to go. You could pick your equipment and roll it into place, break down the crane and store it in the corner when it's not being used. No need to engineer your building to hold up a giant I beam.

[Chris Parks]

My choice would be two parallel lighter beams with a fixed rolling beam between them. This would roll in and out and have some side movement as well, the chain hoist being on the cross beam.

[Jerry Bruette]

[QUOTE=

Storing the thing is def my biggest hangup. Only have a little over 600 sq ft, and I like big equipment. Want every inch to be as useful as possible.

Will give this some thought though. Wonder if I can get an easily broken down gantry with a 3/4-1 Ton rating that's a bit narrower than the usual and therefore lighter? Think as long as it could span the width of a truck bed, that would be more than sufficient, but that really only gets you down to 7 ft if you want it to be a tight fit. If it was easily broken down and light enough, I could potentially store it elsewhere when not needed.[/QUOTE]

Mcmaster.com has aluminium gantry. You could probably rig a pulley system to hang it from the ceiling for storage, like people hang their bikes or canoes.

[Eugene Dixon]

Just got to thinking about a beam extending outside and a loft door - like an old timey hay lift/barn loft.

[Jerome Sidley]

Like you I have an upstairs workshop. I just run two planks cut to fit the length of my stairs and use a chain hoist to pull heavy good up to the landing on a dolly then wheel them to where they belong. Works very well for me. I have thought of pretty well all of the above suggestions but for how often you are moving something that can't be carried this has been all I've needed. So far the heaviest has been my fully assembled (rails and side extension off) saw stop cabinet saw.

[Bill Dufour]

A jib crane that can swing outside might work for you. A rolling gantry is often parked over a lathe or workbench. use an army type hoist or at least a low headroom trolley.
I do not understand what you are doing at all. A gantry will not lift above it's top rail. There is no good way to use a gantry upstairs unless the entire floor is designed for the extreme point loads. Note that no crane, short of a bridge or jib crane, is really designed to be moved horizontally under load. You never said how long the beam needs to be?
Bill D.

[Michael Cummins]

I'm only seeing stuff around $3000+ for aluminum, in a quick search. I can build in a steel beam for way less than that and not have to deal with the gantry being in the way. The plus side to one of those would be ability to take it with me to pick up stuff, but only if easily breaks down.

Rigging it to the ceiling might work. Generally legs are 4' wide, so even if it went up sort of flat or sideways, would still stick down far enough that I'd hit my head on it with my 9' ceilings.



Mcmaster.com has aluminium gantry. You could probably rig a pulley system to hang it from the ceiling for storage, like people hang their bikes or canoes.

[Michael Cummins]

If I was in a large production shop where I'd get a lot of use out of such a setup, this is def what I'd be looking to do. But costs on a setup like this would be at least 4x, for my level of use, just not justifiable.


My choice would be two parallel lighter beams with a fixed rolling beam between them. This would roll in and out and have some side movement as well, the chain hoist being on the cross beam.

[Michael Cummins]

Thought about this option too, but the garage is butted right up to an alley. City would never approve of a beam projecting out the building over their street. Also the engineering of this with the design of my building would be quite difficult - a 32- long beam plus the overhang to go front to back, supports for that, massive extra support over the garage door to handle the load there, etc. In the right situation, this setup could be great, just don't think it works in my tight urban setting.

This would also be similar problems for the swing out crane. Even if the city allowed that, the structure over the garage door would have to be just as beefy as what I'm thinking, if not more so. Plus wall reinforcements to handle the swinging jib, etc.


Just got to thinking about a beam extending outside and a loft door - like an old timey hay lift/barn loft.

[Michael Cummins]

I have an affinity for old iron. A sawstop would be well on the lighter end of the things I'm thinking of moving. If I wasn't building from scratch, probably would just make do, but think I can do a setup like this for a little over a grand or so as part of the construction process. That's worth it to me.


Like you I have an upstairs workshop. I just run two planks cut to fit the length of my stairs and use a chain hoist to pull heavy good up to the landing on a dolly then wheel them to where they belong. Works very well for me. I have thought of pretty well all of the above suggestions but for how often you are moving something that can't be carried this has been all I've needed. So far the heaviest has been my fully assembled (rails and side extension off) saw stop cabinet saw.

[Michael Cummins]

Parking the gantry over a lathe is not a bad idea. The 4' depth of the runners would still be a tripping hazzard, but seems like it could work.

The entire floor is designed for heavy point loads. I wouldn't be able to put a 1500 lb piece of equipment (on its 4 legs) onto the floor if it wasn't, so the gantry lifting that with its 4 point load will be fine, if I go that route.

As far as moving under load, that just depends on your gantry. For my minimal use, I wouldn't worry about it. For everyday use would be a different story. https://www.spanco.com/gantry-cranes-moving-under-load/

I thought I did say the beam length, but anyway, the building is 24' wide total, about 22.5' unsupported between the walls.


A jib crane that can swing outside might work for you. A rolling gantry is often parked over a lathe or workbench. use an army type hoist or at least a low headroom trolley.
I do not understand what you are doing at all. A gantry will not lift above it's top rail. There is no good way to use a gantry upstairs unless the entire floor is designed for the extreme point loads. Note that no crane, short of a bridge or jib crane, is really designed to be moved horizontally under load. You never said how long the beam needs to be?
Bill D.

[Jon Snider]

I have an affinity for old iron. A sawstop would be well on the lighter end of the things I'm thinking of moving. If I wasn't building from scratch, probably would just make do, but think I can do a setup like this for a little over a grand or so as part of the construction process. That's worth it to me.

This is a side comment, but I’m in the middle of a new shop build and will also have it fulll of old iron. You should talk to your architect or engineer about load bearing for your floor. We significantly increased our live loads after reviewing the machinery weights.

Jon

[David Kumm]

Old iron machines will range in the 1000-3000 lb depending but they are always more than you would guess. The second floor shops I've seen full of old iron are often made with structural concrete rather than wood. You may want to stay more with used newer Euro type machinery with steel bases, lighter motors and less build. Cuts 1/3 to 1/2 of the weight. Dave

[Patrick Kane]

To second David, i would shoot for atleast 2500lbs min. for whatever you do right now. I dont know the spec weight of that robland/laguna you are looking at, but i guarantee its over 1500lbs. Surprisingly, you dont need to go too far before you tip the scales. Would suck to have your structure under engineered by 500-1000lbs 1-2 years down the road when you have a tool you want to upgrade. Already this year ive watched a dozen northfield/oliver/tannewitz 32-36" bandsaws sell for $400-700 jut because i cant fit their height in my basement. You dont want that to happen to you with weight.

[Bill Dufour]

A proper jib crane is self supporting and not tied to any part of the building except maybe a power line to run a motorized hoist. The foundation can be a four foot cube of concrete or more. They will come with a foundation plan, normally included in the sales material.
Bill D.

[Dan Rude]

Check out this thread where Alan Schaffter shows his soloution. https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?152103-Hoist-installation Dan

[Michael Cummins]

That's definitely inventive. Only place I could do that would be over the top of a 20' garage door opening in a 24' wide building. The engineering to support that would cost a fortune compared to what I'm looking to do. I also don't have the height for that - 9' ceilings below a flat roof. Nowhere for that beam to stow away to.

Also, I think his bolt pivot is undersized for the kind of loads he's lifting. Great concept, but that seems to be a weak point. Guessing its working for him though...


Check out this thread where Alan Schaffter shows his soloution. https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?152103-Hoist-installation Dan

[Michael Cummins]

Yep, he's aware of what I plan to do in there. That's why were making the trusses so deep and the flooring so thick. Will be talking more on the details as the design is finalized, but he's very aware that I want 1000lb plus equipment in there.


This is a side comment, but I’m in the middle of a new shop build and will also have it fulll of old iron. You should talk to your architect or engineer about load bearing for your floor. We significantly increased our live loads after reviewing the machinery weights.

Jon

[Michael Cummins]

I don't have space for 3000lb equipment, but fully intending to have 1500 lb items. Will probably plan on around 2000, if I want to go bigger than that, I'll need to move shops...

I will def have a mix of newer and older, so the whole shop won't be loaded with one ton items...


Old iron machines will range in the 1000-3000 lb depending but they are always more than you would guess. The second floor shops I've seen full of old iron are often made with structural concrete rather than wood. You may want to stay more with used newer Euro type machinery with steel bases, lighter motors and less build. Cuts 1/3 to 1/2 of the weight. Dave

[Michael Cummins]

You might have to let me know when those come up :-P I can fit 9'. Seen a few models in that size range come by, but not that many. Not sure I want to go quite that big either, but am in the market for a good large bandsaw. Got a couple not great BSs itching to go on the market and out the door...

Will def keep it in mind. I'm more concerned with the floor structure than the beam, as it won't get used often, and I could take motors off etc to get the thing up there if i really had to. But good points to consider overall as I finalize plans.


To second David, i would shoot for atleast 2500lbs min. for whatever you do right now. I dont know the spec weight of that robland/laguna you are looking at, but i guarantee its over 1500lbs. Surprisingly, you dont need to go too far before you tip the scales. Would suck to have your structure under engineered by 500-1000lbs 1-2 years down the road when you have a tool you want to upgrade. Already this year ive watched a dozen northfield/oliver/tannewitz 32-36" bandsaws sell for $400-700 jut because i cant fit their height in my basement. You dont want that to happen to you with weight.

[Michael Cummins]

Small urban environment... where on earth would I put such a thing?


A proper jib crane is self supporting and not tied to any part of the building except maybe a power line to run a motorized hoist. The foundation can be a four foot cube of concrete or more. They will come with a foundation plan, normally included in the sales material.
Bill D.

[Michael Costa]

Motorized block and tackle with straps.

[Bill Dufour]

Small urban environment... where on earth would I put such a thing?
Just inside the garage door, in the corner, so it can swing outside a few feet into a truck. Or put it just outside and use it to hang a hammock or flowering plants in pots.
I

[Jim Andrew]

Do you have a small tractor with front end loader? The weight of your equipment is within the ability of the loader to lift, if you have the height ability. Or maybe there is a rental company nearby.

[Michael Cummins]

But how does that get my equipment onto the 2nd floor? Outside is the street, city won't allow that. To the left or right are neighbor's properties, pretty sure they won't like that. Behind the garage I have a tiny bit of space, but how would I get the equipment to that area (its trapped between the garage and the house).


Just inside the garage door, in the corner, so it can swing outside a few feet into a truck. Or put it just outside and use it to hang a hammock or flowering plants in pots.
I

[Michael Cummins]

Who do you know in a tight urban environment with a tractor with a front end loader that can reach 13 feet off the ground? I don't even have a lawnmower (for the house - have them for the rentals), because I don't have a lawn.


Do you have a small tractor with front end loader? The weight of your equipment is within the ability of the loader to lift, if you have the height ability. Or maybe there is a rental company nearby.

[Tom Bender]

How long does your beam have to be? If just say 4' then a much lighter beam will suffice. One challenge with overhead rigging is that you will run out of height, after you subtract for rail, trolley, hoist, hook and sling. Work out this before you get into it any further. I think you will want the hoist up in the roof truss / joist space. Consider an air powered hoist.

[Bill Dufour]

I recommend a 3 phase hoist run by a vfd. A lightweight used 3 phase hoist will probably be cheaper then single phase. The vfd will give soft start, variable speed, and dynamic braking for good load control.
Bil lD

[Charlie Velasquez]

So, Michael, how did you finally solve this? Given your limitations and parameters I didn't see a solution you embraced. Just curious what you decided as the best.