Stone wall for a garden

[John Christian]

Has anybody on here ever built a stone wall. (taller than 6 ft)?

[Tom M King]

Yes. As well as stone chimneys, and fireplaces. I've built new ones with granite from our abandoned quarry, and matched old stonework using local sandstone. What's the question?

[Bill Dufour]

Code will require a railing on a 6' wall so kids do not run off it because they do not see the drop ahead.
Bill D

[Jim Koepke]

Code is different from state to state. In some states it is against regulations to build a fence taller than 6'.

jtk

[John Christian]

well i would like to build one for one side of a planned garden. thiinking about how to do it.
is a concrete footing absolutely necessary?
i think buttresses would be important for strength/stability what would be the most efficient spacing and size/design ( maybe concrete block)?
how wide do i have to make it at the base? Thinking of stability and efficiency?
thanks in advance

[Jim Becker]

Something that tall is going to require very careful preparation (base/footing) and will also be best served with some reinforcement. Some masons would build a core with block (filled and with rebar) and then stack and mortar the stone for "the look". For six feet tall, a substantial structure will be require...and that's assuming it's not holding back a slope. If it is, then there are additional considerations.

[Tom M King]

What type of stone, and is it a retaining wall, or barrier wall? In any case, I wouldn't bother to build the wall without a substantial footing. If I was using the stone that I work with around here, 18" would be the minimum thickness at the bottom. Buttresses could reduce that.

The stone walls that we've built have all been repairs, or replacements for basement, and foundation walls for old houses. Only basement walls have been taller than your 6'. Those have typically been two layers thick below ground level, and two feet thick. We fill the center with concrete as we go up.

What type of stone you use, and how you want the finished look will change the list of tools I'd recommend. A picture of what you want would help. For instance, it could be anything from dry stacked Large stones, to a thin veneer over blocks, and the tools required for either wouldn't overlap that much.

Trow & Holden has quite a number of good videos on youtube for the different techniques, and most of the tools you would need for any method. trowandholden.com

[Perry Hilbert Jr]

I used my back hoe to lay up a rather low wall for our garden. Only three feet at the tallest point. and as low as 10 inches at the lowest. I laid huge flat stones using the machine. The three foot high corner is still standing fine after 15 years. The lower part just fell all apart with the freezing and heaving in winter. The three foot high corner has huge rocks down 18 inches under the surface for a footer and the upper side was back filled to almost the top. I have a large pile of large rocks gathered making a level picnic area in the back yard. That wall will only be about 12 inches high at the top, but I am going to put a footer under it that goes down at least 30 inches. and this time I will put some mortar in the wall. I can get a nice level area about 20 feet in diameter. If and when I get the time, I want to put in a pavilion with a brick oven and closed pit BBQ across one wall. (My cousin had a colonial brick kitchen hearth with brick oven built in his modern kitchen. Folks would do anything and everything to finagle an invite for Thanksgiving, which was always cooked in the big hearth and brick oven. )

[Tom M King]

Perry, your Cousin, and I would get along just fine. This is typical of the type of repairs I do. A front end loader gets the call for very large stones here too. That lower corner stone looks like it's not a good match for the rest of the stones there, but it came out of that spot originally. This with Lime Mortar on an early 19th Century house.

This was inside an EL, and the dirt had washed out. The form is for a concrete footing under the outer layer, that was originally just laid on top of the ground.
http://historic-house-restoration.com/images/DSCN8342.JPG





http://historic-house-restoration.com/images/DSCN8451.JPG

Here's another whole basement we have to redo. This small section of dry stacked wall is the only original part left on this 1798 house. Someone dug out a basement after the house was built. It gradually all caved in, except for that one section held up by an intersecting wall in the basement. What remains of the rest of it is stones have have been placed as the rest caved inward. The whole thing has to be redone. Those few remaining original stones are cut from nearby Glacial Erratic s, of which there are a fair number of around this part of the country.
http://historic-house-restoration.com/images/CIMG2196.JPG
I have it setting on angled legs, so the old stonework can be removed for the work.
http://historic-house-restoration.com/sitebuilder/images/DSC_0050-250x167.jpg (http://historic-house-restoration.com/images/DSC_0050.JPG)

[Lee Schierer]

Another consideration that no one has mentioned is drainage. Water behind the wall will exert tremendous pressure and if it freezes, it will push even more. You need to insure that water can drain out of your wall. An loose fill behind your wall is going to settle and put pressure on your wall.

[John Christian]

thanks for all the responses. I was in a train going from prague to venice. when i woke in the morning we were chugging down italy and passing lots of italian back yards. so many of them contained stone walls , under construction, with piles of stone and sand and bags of cement under tarps. \the idea took hold. now that the house is finished, and i am close to finishing this particular bit of employment, i am thinking to start my wall this winter. i was pretty sure that a reinforced footing was required, but was hoping some one woukd tell me of sucees with out one. i live on an island and concrete is expensive and difficult to arrange. i had set my sights on six feet as a garden on this island has to deal with deer. buttime age and stability may suggest i shorten it. and maybe put another type of barrier on top. i also have always thought to put a fountain and basin in the wall.
any more/other thoughts and contributions would be appreciated

[Jim Becker]

Not sure this will be a good "winter" project unless you have remarkably mild weather there in Surrey. ;) Concrete/mortar is going to be involved...

[Bob Grier]

A few suggestions:

Frost protection - Found the wall below frost line on a clean (non frost susceptible and free draining) gravel bedding maybe a foot thick. Backfill behind the wall with gravel to a distance beyond the frost penetration.

Drainage - Make sure to use some method of grading the backfill so it allows water to drain but not pipe any material. Filter fabric can be used at the back face of the wall. Depending on the native soil used behind the wall it might be good to place filter fabric on the backside of the gravel fill to keep native soils from piping into the gravel backfill behind the wall. Make sure you provide drainage through the wall with small drain pipes if you mortar the rock wall.

Rock quality - Make sure the rock you select can withstand freeze thaw over a long time (30 years?) or it will disintegrate and become unstable. Look up type of rock to use or talk to a geologist.

Placement of rocks - You will be building a gravity retaining wall so you should build it as such. You can probably look up how to do that. Maybe use something other than quarry rocks for some of that. Maybe a few gabions or concrete interlocking blocks. Make sure you place the individual rocks so they are stable. Place rocks so their upper surface is sloped back, not forward, etc. Also, talk to someone like Tom King for tips on how to do it and what not to do.

There are probably other considerations but who ever said drainage is important is correct. I have a 3 to 6' rock wall out front of my place that is seriously compromised due to frost deteriorating the individual rocks and material piping from behind the rock wall through the joints between the rocks. Also, some rocks are sliding out (protruding) from the wall because the surface of the rock below them is canted forward instead of backward.

Good luck - It will look nice if done properly. There is more to the art of building rock walls than just laying up rocks. I see landscapers lay rock walls that don't look right and are not right when done. I know there are people who know how to do rock walls. Talk to Tom King.

[Walter Plummer]

I am unsure of what you want to build. Are you building a retaining wall downhill to create garden space or a free standing wall- "fence" around a level garden? Seems like you are getting answers for both.

[Tom M King]

For inspiration:

Personally, I use a hammer drill for the holes, and wedges and feathers hit with a much smaller hammer, but there are many ways to do it. This keeps an 86 year old in good shape.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v-NsirLXUMk

Wedges and feathers come in a bunch of different sizes. Often, it's faster to cut one like you need it, than to find just the right stone. It's worth watching all the Trow and Holden videos, even if you don't have enough work to justify their expensive, carbide edged tools. There are tools to chisel off the half holes left.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-8G6pwn-3A

[Tom Bender]

In Michigan and other northern climates rock walls are uncommon because it is challenging to make them so they withstand deep frost. In warmer climates they are more common. Kentucky has many miles of low walls laid up without foundations or mortar. They last many decades before needing to be taken down and rebuilt. Britain is filled with high walls (like you saw in Europe). You should get advice from someone with experience relevant to your climate. Better to hire a stonemason to build it.

If this is your first stone wall, it will probably look as good as your first dovetail. My father taught me just a little about laying up a dry wall. (one stone on top of two, two on top of one) This is a start but nowhere near enough to make yours look good.

I have done a decent job using concrete units because there is little art and just a lot of heavy lifting.

Best of luck and let us know how it goes.

[Jim Andrew]

You might check out the manufactured retaining wall blocks that the home centers are selling. You dig out a footing, fill the footing with crushed rock, and stack the blocks, filling on the backside with gravel. The gravel will let water through, so the wall is not pushed over by the weight of water.

[Jim Becker]

You might check out the manufactured retaining wall blocks that the home centers are selling. You dig out a footing, fill the footing with crushed rock, and stack the blocks, filling on the backside with gravel. The gravel will let water through, so the wall is not pushed over by the weight of water.

Stacked manufactured block walls can be stand-alone, too. However, there is a height limit that is less than the 6 feet the OP is thinking about.

[John Christian]

i now live on Gabriola island is the gulf island incredibly mild, but yeah i will probably have to be weather concious and hoard.

[John Christian]

free standing, garden fence, but i appreciate the feedback on the retaining wall answers too

[Tom M King]

Every stone you lay needs to have as level, through the wall, as possible top side. A large flat gives plenty of opportunity for the stone sitting on it to have good support. For instance, if one stone has a large flat on one side, and a small flat on the opposite side, first choice is large flat on top. Don't lay a stone with a sloped top thinking you can work around it tomorrow.

It's quicker to pick up a stone, and find somewhere to put it, than to look for a stone to fit in one spot. You can't avoid it sometimes, but you don't want to have to every time. For this reason, it doesn't take multiple times as long to build a stone fireplace, that's stone all the way around, as it does to just face one. If you pick up a stone, and walk around the chimney, you can usually find a place to put it, whereas with a single face, there is a lot of looking for the right stone.

Don't put good corner stones in the wall. Save them for the corners, or ends.

Use as few vertical, head joints stacked on top of each other as possible, and never go above an adjoining large stone with stacked head joints.

Ideally, you want at least 1/3 of a stone crossing a head joint.

You can only go so high any day. Stone doesn't suck moisture out of mortar like bricks and blocks do, so it's much slower to set up. Max height will vary with several factors, but you'll get a feel for it in short order. If it starts to slump, or slide, you're going too high.

Wear gloves that protect your hands from the mortar. As tempting as it is to pack it in by hand, mortar will eat little holes in your skin that are very painful.

Clean, with a brush, and tool, or rake (if you're going to) the joints at the end of the day. It's much easier to do while the mortar is green.

Don't use dirty stones. It will make a weak wall. I try to avoid using dirty stones, but if that's what we have to work with, they get pressure washed days before being used.

I'm sure I've forgotten something.

[John Christian]

thank you very much

[Tom M King]

One thing I forgot is to mix your mortar stiff. Only put in enough water to make it up, but nowhere nearly as much as you would for brick, or block. It should be so stiff that a mortar hoe with holes in it won't do you any good. A small, but strong garden hoe is best. For a half day's work, it will have to be stirred up several times, with a little more water added each time just so you can "shake it up", as the laborers call it.

With no mixer, put the mix in the back of a wheelbarrow, or box, and water in the front. Pull mix into the water, and chop as you go. Measure water, and figure out the right amount to start with, so you find for X amount of mix, you need to start with Y amount of water. It's worth a little extra time to start with to figure out the most efficient procedure.