shaper cutterhead questions....

[Mike Kees]

I am looking at buying a rabbeting cutterhead and am wondering what if any difference is there between the aluminium and steel bodies on the insert style heads ? Thanks for any help, Mike.

[Martin Wasner]

I have zero evidence or proof.

I think steel heads do a better job.

BUT! I've never used the exact same design in steel and aluminium. It's been the same process, but two different manufactures. There's other factors. Rake, angle of attack, and shear could've been different.

Aluminum heads are usually for lighter duty shapers to make the bearings last a bit longer.

[Wayne Lomman]

Totally agree with Martin for about the same reasons. Cheers

[Joe Calhoon]

I have a aluminum Euro block head and a identical one in steel. I see no difference in performance but would imagine the steel one would last longer especially the threads. We also have a few alu cutter bodies on our 320mm diameter tenon heads. I like these as they are a lot easier to lift on and off the shaft of the tenoner and shaper. They are also common on CNC routers for door and window tooling. The better tools will have hard metal inserts on any place threaded.

Like Martin says easier on bearings for light duty shapers but otherwise I would prefer steel for normal size cutters.

[brent stanley]

Run steel if you can for longevity, but it may place more demands on your machine. Not a problem if it has the heft to withstand it, but something to think about.

B

[Mike Kees]

Thanks. What brands of tooling do you guys recommend ?I have a CMT head for the pin style steel insert cutters so was looking at their rabbet head. What others should I be looking at ?

[brent stanley]

Thanks. What brands of tooling do you guys recommend ?I have a CMT head for the pin style steel insert cutters so was looking at their rabbet head. What others should I be looking at ?
I had a aluminum CMT rebate block and it worked fine and was MAN rated, but was limited in the depth it could work for tenoning so I got a larger diameter one in steel for my larger machine. I also had a small pin style head like yours for my small machine, but I sold it and got the small combi head from Whitehill that gave me a shear cut rebate block and steel limiter pin style block in one head. It can also be flush mounted for tenoning if I get the spindle for it.

[brent stanley]

What machine will you be running the blocks on if you don't mind me asking?

B

[Mike Kees]

Brent right now I have a Steel city 3h.p. shaper. I am trying to only buy new tooling in 11/4'' bore,so when I get a bigger shaper my tooling will be good to go. I have a 3/4'' and one inch spindle for the steel city as well as the router collet. Mike.

[Mike Kees]

I will probably not sell this machine but plan to keep it as my "light" shaper.

[Phillip Gregory]

I am looking at buying a rabbeting cutterhead and am wondering what if any difference is there between the aluminium and steel bodies on the insert style heads ? Thanks for any help, Mike.

The steel heads are supposed to be more durable and are MUCH heavier. Amana makes both kinds and recommends not using the steel heads on shapers less than 3 hp. They only make the standard 40/50 mm Euroblock steel heads in 100 and 120 mm sizes with 1", 30 mm, and 1 1/4" bores. They make the aluminum heads in 3/4" as well as 1", 30 mm, and 1 1/4" bores and make the aluminum heads in smaller 68 mm and 88 mm diameters in addition to the 100 and 120 mm sizes.

I have a 120 mm steel Amana head and it weighs several pounds more than a stack of typical 1 1/4" bore cope and stick cutters or a stacked panel raising cutter set. I would not recommend using it on a modern 3 hp shaper that is designed for 3/4" bore tooling as that mass is going to be very hard on its relatively small spindle bearings.

[Mike Kees]

So I have found two rabbeting cutters with Inserts. Both are Amana tools. One is 61463, steel body 85mm diameter and 50mm cutting height . The other is 61462 Aluminium body 100mm diameter and not sure what the cutting height was. So I get the extra weight of steel and the possible durability issues of aluminium,which one of these heads is the best compromise to use on the machine I have currently (steel city 3h.p. ) and move up with me to a larger machine in the future ?

[brent stanley]

So I have found two rabbeting cutters with Inserts. Both are Amana tools. One is 61463, steel body 85mm diameter and 50mm cutting height . The other is 61462 Aluminium body 100mm diameter and not sure what the cutting height was. So I get the extra weight of steel and the possible durability issues of aluminium,which one of these heads is the best compromise to use on the machine I have currently (steel city 3h.p. ) and move up with me to a larger machine in the future ?

I wouldn't hesitate to run that size steel cutterhead on that shaper....it's not really that big.

This is a big cutterhead!

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[Gregory Stahl]

Here is my go to rabbetng head:

https://www.rangate.com/products/shear-rabbeting-cutter

Love it—use it to size my face frame stock off the rip saw too.

Greg Stahl

[Martin Wasner]

Does it shear in both directions? The one I use for sizing is. I've never seen anything deliver the cut quality that thing does.

[brent stanley]

Does it shear in both directions? The one I use for sizing is. I've never seen anything deliver the cut quality that thing does.

The giant one I have pictured has alternate shear on four cutters. It's 350mm in diameter though, so creates a bit of a breeze....

B

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi Brent, your rebating head is going to serve 2 functions for you, rebating and pattern copying.

I normally prefer larger diameter cutters, however if your patterns won't accept a 100mm head, that's the only time I would select the smaller one............Regards, Rod.

[brent stanley]

Hi Brent, your rebating head is going to serve 2 functions for you, rebating and pattern copying.

I normally prefer larger diameter cutters, however if your patterns won't accept a 100mm head, that's the only time I would select the smaller one............Regards, Rod.

Exactly, that's the reason I have two. I haven't used the small one for that yet, but I may some day and besides, It's also a 40mm euroblock. Additionally though Rod, with a stub spindle, both of these can be used for tenoning for milling full length scribed (or not) shoulders which is handy. I have bearings to match each.

Now the giant manhole cover head I pictured will not be going on the spindle moulder!

B

[Gregory Stahl]

Does it shear in both directions?

No, only one direction. The cut quality is superb--very smooth, no sanding required at all. The inserts seam to last forever--the new diamond coating must be working!

What are you using?

[brent stanley]

No, only one direction. The cut quality is superb--very smooth, no sanding required at all. The inserts seam to last forever--the new diamond coating must be working!

What are you using?

I've never had a shear-cut rebate block insert get dull....because they last so long they usually suffer some other form of death first! :)

B

[Martin Wasner]

No, only one direction. The cut quality is superb--very smooth, no sanding required at all. The inserts seam to last forever--the new diamond coating must be working!

What are you using?

Four wing Dimension in Tooling. I could probably get away with no sanding, but I sand anyways. It takes nothing to sand though. Breeze over it and done. I don't know if it's the shear cut, or the opposite shear that does it, or just the head design in general, but the chips are fluffy. It raises hell in the baghouse if you are disciplined about keeping it empty.

The thing that has blown me away about that cutter is how long it has lasted. It's always powerfed which helps, and it's typically removing no more than an 1/8" of material, (usually less than a 1/16"), but I bet one set of knives saw over 50k lin/ft on that height setting and before we had to flip them. In fact, I think I've had the head four years, and it's on the second side of it's first set of knives. This set is about done though.

I typically use a high/low on it since it's a 2" tall head and we typically run just 13/16" material through it. Run the top half of the cutter until it's done, then run the bottom half.

[Warren Lake]

is sanding a need for good finiish adhesion it often is. Had stuff off serrated that I sanded as it was too smooth and was concerned. Going over something fast with 220 is a breeze not really sanding just scuffing up for some tooth. Guitar builders sure dont go very fine to help get tooth for finishing thnk they have told me 180 two different ones

[brent stanley]

Four wing Dimension in Tooling. I could probably get away with no sanding, but I sand anyways. It takes nothing to sand though. Breeze over it and done. I don't know if it's the shear cut, or the opposite shear that does it, or just the head design in general, but the chips are fluffy. It raises hell in the baghouse if you are disciplined about keeping it empty.

The thing that has blown me away about that cutter is how long it has lasted. It's always powerfed which helps, and it's typically removing no more than an 1/8" of material, (usually less than a 1/16"), but I bet one set of knives saw over 50k lin/ft on that height setting and before we had to flip them. In fact, I think I've had the head four years, and it's on the second side of it's first set of knives. This set is about done though.

I typically use a high/low on it since it's a 2" tall head and we typically run just 13/16" material through it. Run the top half of the cutter until it's done, then run the bottom half.

I know what you mean. I rotated my knives one time because I felt I surely must have needed to, but I saw no change in performance/heat buildup etc at all!

[Joe Calhoon]

The most used shaper cutter in our shop is a Garniga Z4 sheer rebate head. I have had this cutter for 15 years + It has slots that accept chamfer, radius and slotting tools. Used mostly for rebating, stub tenons and easing edges but I have also made prototypes of window and door designs using this cutter. Inserts usually last a couple years and we run rebates in reverse when the top part of the cutter dulls.

I was reading Woodweb about the guy using a sheer rebate head for edge gluing and discovered it leaves a convex surface. I jointed a piece of 8/4 with mine today and sure enough slightly convex. Its very slight but would leave gaps in edge gluing. All the years I used this cutter and never noticed that. I never use the shaper for edging but use this cutter for counter profiles sometimes when doing square edge work and never had open joints with that.

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[Martin Wasner]

I was reading Woodweb about the guy using a sheer rebate head for edge gluing and discovered it leaves a convex surface. I jointed a piece of 8/4 with mine today and sure enough slightly convex.


That's interesting. I'll have to take a look. A few times doing big table tops where it sounded easier to use the shaper to prep for gluing than a jointer we've used this head. Dead square, and a lower risk of tear out. We'd rough rip, joint, rip oversized, then blast it through the shaper to prep both edges. I never noticed anything, but I can't say I looked at it REALLY close.

[brent stanley]

That's interesting. I'll have to take a look. A few times doing big table tops where it sounded easier to use the shaper to prep for gluing than a jointer we've used this head. Dead square, and a lower risk of tear out. We'd rough rip, joint, rip oversized, then blast it through the shaper to prep both edges. I never noticed anything, but I can't say I looked at it REALLY close.

That is interesting....I'll have to look too.

I usually use the jointer because I have the shear cut helical head in there, but I do a lot of widthing with the rebate block and an out board fence and feeder but I never noticed.

B

[Martin Wasner]

We use it for glue edges a lot for drawer parts. We've got sizes that get used almost every single job, so we rip oversized on the rip saw, and run them to size in full length sticks with an outboard fence as well and just keep 3-400 bd/ft of parts in stock and ready to go. It's nice being really accurate with the glue ups and not having to trim anything off once glued together.

I'm betting the cut being convex would be more noticeable on a full cut than it would be on a surfaced 4/4 part. We just haven't passed much thick material across it.

Joe, was that sheering one way, or opposite sheer? I'm betting it would halve the error if just going in a single direction. Or maybe I've got that backwards. Both ways made sense for a second there.... :D

[Mike Kees]

OK guys ,continuing education here what does an "outboard fence" set-up look like on a shaper ?

[Bob Varney]

I believe Martin has a youtube video on that setup.

Bob

[Joe Calhoon]

[QUOTE=Martin Wasner

I'm betting the cut being convex would be more noticeable on a full cut than it would be on a surfaced 4/4 part. We just haven't passed much thick material across it.

Joe, was that sheering one way, or opposite sheer? I'm betting it would halve the error if just going in a single direction. Or maybe I've got that backwards. Both ways made sense for a second there.... :D[/QUOTE]

Martin,
i think on 3/4” or less it would be hardly noticeable. My cutter sheers one way. It will be interesting to see how yours does on thicker material. I tried to measure the gap on the 8/4 I ran with a feeler gauge. It was about 0.04mm total.

[Martin Wasner]

Martin,
i think on 3/4” or less it would be hardly noticeable. My cutter sheers one way. It will be interesting to see how yours does on thicker material. I tried to measure the gap on the 8/4 I ran with a feeler gauge. It was about 0.04mm total.


I learned two things.

1. I don't think my head will do a full two inches. I had a little strip left over when I ran this walnut, it is 1-15/16" thick.
2. It makes a convex cut.

I don't have any feeler gauges here, but it's really slight. I'd definetly say less so than the dude's on woodweb. I'd be curious what shaper he's running it in and if the spindle wandering around has something to do with it. This was ran in a medium duty shaper, a SCM T130N. I'm assuming yours was in the Martin, and it's healthy so that should be as solid a bench mark as anything.

Why it rotated the image, I have no idea.....



https://sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=394367&d=1538567051

https://sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=394368&d=1538567072

https://sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=394369&d=1538567093

[Martin Wasner]

OK guys ,continuing education here what does an "outboard fence" set-up look like on a shaper ?



Here's mine


https://youtu.be/6pwzTD_2yU0

[Rod Sheridan]

Wow Martin, now I have outboard fence envy:D

Mine's just a piece of 1/2" X 4" CRS flat bar.................Rod

[Martin Wasner]

Wow Martin, now I have outboard fence envy:D

Mine's just a piece of 1/2" X 4" CRS flat bar.................Rod


You just gotta learn to be lazy. Working hard is for schmucks.

I'd really like to set it up with some ball screws on servo drives with a controller. I know nothing about that stuff unfortunately. I've had the hard parts in a cart a few times and not pulled the trigger. I was just going to use a couple of Z drives for small cnc applications. I can fab, have fab'd, or jury rig just about anything physical to work. When it comes to electrons and code, I'm a complete dummy.

[brent stanley]

I learned two things.

1. I don't think my head will do a full two inches. I had a little strip left over when I ran this walnut, it is 1-15/16" thick.
2. It makes a convex cut.

I don't have any feeler gauges here, but it's really slight. I'd definetly say less so than the dude's on woodweb. I'd be curious what shaper he's running it in and if the spindle wandering around has something to do with it. This was ran in a medium duty shaper, a SCM T130N. I'm assuming yours was in the Martin, and it's healthy so that should be as solid a bench mark as anything.

Why it rotated the image, I have no idea.....



Hi Martin, thanks for doing the video and the test run of the rebate block. That's a helluva outboard fence setup! A little more elaborate than my piece of mdf c-clamped to the table! I will have to check my rebate blocks to see if they also make a convex surface.....interesting.

B

[Mike Kees]

Thanks Martin. So when you are using this outboard fence to trim pieces to width do you angle your power feeder slightly towards the outboard side to keep that edge on the fence ?

[Rod Sheridan]

Thanks Martin. So when you are using this outboard fence to trim pieces to width do you angle your power feeder slightly towards the outboard side to keep that edge on the fence ?

I'm not Martin however the answer is yes, the machine fence/hood is just for guarding/dust collection........Rod.

[brent stanley]

Thanks Martin. So when you are using this outboard fence to trim pieces to width do you angle your power feeder slightly towards the outboard side to keep that edge on the fence ?

Hi Mike, yes that's how it works. Very slick approach.

Do you have this book yet? https://www.amazon.ca/Spindle-Moulder-Handbook-Eric-Stephenson/dp/0854421505

Very good book, and it will get you very excited about your shaper!

B

[Jared Sankovich]

Any shear angle head that uses straight inserts will cut a convex profile. The severity will be directly related to the shear angle of the knives. I've never found it to be much of a issue in practical application as the rebate heads I have have a very slight shear angle.

Shear knives from my SET that cut a square (flat) profile.
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[Warren Lake]

thats funny Jared as I was thinking that I walked past a machine the other day sitting on it was a serrated ball bearing head with straight knives on it for whatever reason I last had it out likely thinking about something. No shear but not needed.

Martin saved your photos to look at them right side up, thats a bit wild did you guys just discover this now or has this been known about from the dealers for a while?

[Martin Wasner]

thats a bit wild did you guys just discover this now or has this been known about from the dealers for a while?

I didn't know that it made a curved cut.

[Joe Calhoon]

I learned two things.

1. I don't think my head will do a full two inches. I had a little strip left over when I ran this walnut, it is 1-15/16" thick.
2. It makes a convex cut.

I don't have any feeler gauges here, but it's really slight. I'd definetly say less so than the dude's on woodweb. I'd be curious what shaper he's running it in and if the spindle wandering around has something to do with it. This was ran in a medium duty shaper, a SCM T130N. I'm assuming yours was in the Martin, and it's healthy so that should be as solid a bench mark as anything.

Why it rotated the image, I have no idea.....





Martin, my cut looked identical to yours. Not as bad as the other guys. Interesting to say the least...

All my tenon disks have shear but I think the distance is usually not very long so no noticeable gapping.

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[brent stanley]

Any shear angle head that uses straight inserts will cut a convex profile. The severity will be directly related to the shear angle of the knives. I've never found it to be much of a issue in practical application as the rebate heads I have have a very slight shear angle.

Shear knives from my SET that cut a square (flat) profile.
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Yup, it makes perfect sense that it cuts a little convex If you think about it.

[Martin Wasner]

Yup, it makes perfect sense that it cuts a little convex If you think about it.

I've been beating myself up all day trying to make sense why. I don't get it.

[brent stanley]

Hard to type out, but imagine you're holding the insert between your fingers right on the edge of the rebate block in a "no shear" orientation.....so parallel to the bore. If you measure from the centre of the block to the cutting edge, it's going to be the same on the ends of the insert as in the middle. And the back will be touching the block along It's whole length.

Now, twist the insert to orient it towards a shear-type cut. Only the middle will be touching the block, the top an bottom will not be any longer.....the more you twist, the bigger the gap gets. Of course, the outer (cutting) edge is doing the same thing and if you measure the distance from the bore centre to the cutting edge, It's grown.

That's how I think of it anyway...

B

[Warren Lake]

works for me I could not get it but knew its further so how? thought it hangs out more then no thats not right but if you do what you say brent visualze the tilt then top and bottom are further from the bore it becomes clear still odd though.

[Imran Malik]

It becomes even easier to visualize if one thinks in terms of circle of cut. So take a top view of the cutter head. Straight knife, as Brent said, there is a single circle of cut. Now start rotating the knife around the middle. The top view will clearly show that the leading and trailing edges of the knife are leaving the original cutting circle and creating a larger cutting circle. This becomes even more obvious when the knife is rotated to 90 deg from vertical. The circle of cut made by the leading and trailing edges of the knife is much larger than the middle. Therefore, the cut from a shearing rebate head will always be more at top and bottom vs the middle.

[brent stanley]

It becomes even easier to visualize if one thinks in terms of circle of cut. So take a top view of the cutter head. Straight knife, as Brent said, there is a single circle of cut. Now start rotating the knife around the middle. The top view will clearly show that the leading and trailing edges of the knife are leaving the original cutting circle and creating a larger cutting circle. This becomes even more obvious when the knife is rotated to 90 deg from vertical. The circle of cut made by the leading and trailing edges of the knife is much larger than the middle. Therefore, the cut from a shearing rebate head will always be more at top and bottom vs the middle.

Yup, saying the same thing a different way. This is why the shear cutting, segmented heads have a radius on the little carbide inserts to compensate for that. Byrd uses the same inserts all the time for all their heads but if the head is a different diameter and other elements of the geometry are different, the compensation offered by the radiused head will not necessarily be enough. That's why performance (in terms of the scalloped surface) is not the same for all Byrd heads.

[brent stanley]

I got a lot of questions about it and decides to do a little video on the subject:

https://youtu.be/-kaS1iLAqS4?si=1iyl08l05wZiGxtm

B