Railing design/structure...where to use bolt and/or screws

[laura vianello]

Hello, my next project is a railing of about 3 feet. I have never bolt in a newel post and I am terrified. Currently we have only subfloors (1939) and in the process to get hardwood floors installed. The way I am envisioning the railing will enable me to screw/bolt the wood board to the floor in several pieces instead of just one place (the one under the newel post). Here a brief summary of the layout: one stand alone post, one post attached to the wall full lenght, then the railing between the post as shown in my drawing. No angle, just a straight 3 feet structure. I have attached few inspirational pictures that might explain better what I am trying to accomplish. I might not use the vertical dowels but a stainless steel cabling. Not sure yet. My questions are: 1) is my plan a safe and sound solution? 2) where do I use bolts and screws to make sure everything hold the purpose of the railing (protection from falling over a staircase). The structure is straight, it is not built on stairs (it is more a balcony baluster like the 1st pic). Thanks for any help you might be able to provide.
(Disclosure: both pics were from Pinterest and they had a blog linked but no instruction on how to bolt/screw the 1x4 to the floor).

[Jim Becker]

When the stairway was installed in our addition a number of years ago, the stair maker used heavy lag bolts to do the deed after the GC made sure to have strong, doubled structure behind the mounting points as part of the design. The lags were in countersunk holes that had plugs glued installed after everything was checked.

[Bill Dufour]

I thought railing, that are not handrails, had to be 42" or taller? The slat spacing looks too far apart to be code as well. Ask you building department before you buy any wood.
Bill D.

[Al Launier]

I think that it's supposed to be 36" for home and 42" or 48" for businesses or commercial applications.

As for the actual installation I believe Jim has stated the way to do it: drill & c'bore holes in the 2x4 for a mating plug, pilot drill for the lag bolt, lag bolt, glue the plug into the hole, sand the plug flush with the 2x4.

[andrew whicker]

I used a GRX Pheionix Screw when I did a railing. They don't require a pilot hole like lag bolts. You can buy them at your good construction store places where the local GC's go.

Here is a link on buying in bulk: https://www.ustoolandfastener.com/grk-pheinox-rss-stainless-steel-5-16-x-6-50-pcs-32235/

[Gary Ragatz]

Here is something similar in our home (built about 2 years ago). The railing is 3' high and 5' long. On the right, the railing is attached to that oval plate with a lag screw from the back of the plate. The plate is attached to the 2x4 framed half-wall with two lag screws, above and below the railing (I believe it's 3 2x4's at the end of the half-wall). Those screws were countersunk and plugged as Jim described.

The base plate is 1x6, glued and nailed to the subfloor and joists. The balusters are glued and nailed into the decorative molding at the bottom, and glued into holes in the railing at the top. The decorative molding is glued and nailed to the base plate.

On the left, the railing is attached to the newel post with a single lag screw, countersunk and plugged. I'm not 100% sure how the newel post is anchored at the bottom - pretty sure it's screwed to the stair stringer below the level of the subfloor. If you can't do that, I'd guess angle irons and some molding to cover it.

Building code here requires a maximum of 4" between balusters.


394091

[laura vianello]

It is 4 center to center which is more than what required. Height will be done by code. My concerns are about the sturdiness of the structure and what to use to anchor it. thanks

[John TenEyck]

Normally you install a half newel against the wall and attach the railing between it and the full newel. The half newel is easily screwed to a stud or blocking behind where the railing and bottom rail will cover the screws. Like so:


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Attaching the stand alone newel is the most important thing in the whole process. It has to be very solid and to do that you need to attach it to framing under the floor. If the framing guys didn't provide for that framing you need to add some. I had to tear up a section of the subfloor to add a pair of cripples between the joists when I installed this newel.

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The bolt you see is a Sure-Tite newel bolt, and can be used with both solid and hollow newels if a block of solid wood is glued in the bottom. There are other methods; just make sure whatever you use is solid and goes into framing.

Once the newel is installed you install the bottom rail on the floor. Then you can install the railing and balusters.

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I used structural lag bolts to attach the handrail to the newels.

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Those bolts, and the screws used to attach the bottom rail to the floor, are covered with trim that fits into the dados you see. The trim pieces also control the spacing between the balusters, and are glued in place for a nail and screw free installation.

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John

[andrew whicker]

John,

Do you ever have the stand alone post go thru the floor and attach it directly to the joists below?

[Mike Kees]

Andrew when I frame houses we cut holes thru the subfloor and block for newel posts to go thru. Usually Pl 400 and now Grk srews to install the posts. Mike.

[John TenEyck]

John,

Do you ever have the stand alone post go thru the floor and attach it directly to the joists below?

Andrew, in hindsight I could have done it that way on this job had I built the newel with a large tenon on the bottom. And w/o a doubt that gives the strongest connection possible. I've seen some old houses where the newel has a big round tenon on the bottom that goes through the floor and blocking below it that spans between two joists, and is held in place by a big tapered wedge through the tenon. That allows the joint to be tightened, if needed. No matter how it's done, you need a really solid connection on those unsupported newels.

John

[John TenEyck]

Andrew when I frame houses we cut holes thru the subfloor and block for newel posts to go thru. Usually Pl 400 and now Grk srews to install the posts. Mike.

Mike, I wish you had framed the houses I've worked in.

John

[Mark Bolton]

I am with the recommendation to carry the newels through the floor and attach to the framing. landing them on the deck, unless they heavily rely on another newel or a wall, will never be strong enough and likely wont hold up over time. A balustrade is very similar to a chair in that it takes a brutal amount of abuse and racking force over time.

Lay out your newels, cut a hole in the subfloor and assess what you have to do to rigidly affix the newel to the framing. At that point you can do anything you want for the balustrade. It will just get stronger and more rigid with each subsequent component.

[laura vianello]

John, Oh my...this is great!! Although I was hoping to avoid to bolt the stand alone newel post and bolt the base instead. I am wondering if my pictures came through. I could not see them the day after my post. Nobody wants this job where a leave and I cannot put down the hardwood floor if I do not set up the railing. I am trying to find a easy way that my husband and I can do. The half post looks great...did you built it or buy it? Thanks so much for the great info you are sharing!!

[John TenEyck]

John, Oh my...this is great!! Although I was hoping to avoid to bolt the stand alone newel post and bolt the base instead. I am wondering if my pictures came through. I could not see them the day after my post. Nobody wants this job where a leave and I cannot put down the hardwood floor if I do not set up the railing. I am trying to find a easy way that my husband and I can do. The half post looks great...did you built it or buy it? Thanks so much for the great info you are sharing!!

Laura, what did you mean?

I built the entire balustrade, but the same principles apply if you are using store bought. If you can't buy a half newel just cut a whole one in half. Most are only 4 to 5" wide, so they can be cut with two passes on the table saw. Even a 6" one could be cut that way.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/Dql784etC32eHPKYUiHB_MMqYE8oJKyUau4Q-oZtB6vtPNX22gI5dW00jgC7ZVegySzeN08HzwpANo72GiHX-4ra7cyP3Jds9QZ1Ls8drTvW0Hh750HY9XmUgoegdR-X40Ix2HWvtcJlvRsjsEeae8niMyLuxtEWPGgVxb9ziEr1Y0LQT ZOrPusg8bQnVLm5-U4miguZiBh_7I9hxCW-giYwq6Wz2Z2w1TI8ED0IWEu4TgrPMrwM5R5xhvFs4__pcRO1G8 xLRBEOr3-U-zeEuRr8z9TslPjbnJ8OQv6KeUgTKTf6x4kVJL0u2GM0rfzTKvv ADAX_5M88gjbvSd-lwTzEO_CV7oPs7fnERznTAS9FTVbI269FLsINrt35P3WGYtUzr bte2diVCSUe7Lg2ryv6qrfSrP3b0elE6zGpsLrf9m7Kxm3wfD-3ZdDtuNlhOPhjtjKZK4F3qT2Fe3lWVVbyVpo4EsFUV4mfHjq6J nLy3v6Pcr8HgDq3nxPqKA0IbKizodCLRSBnnJSQYSBrsgQFsNm WQpKAfduZ54nh4rLfOcJ0hT1rWUOtPmXfKRM8pyNo6qUaJLSmL u8DmhqPb3WVxjQNHE5XP8SQIsKxZFJkIaH6DX0XYEXwrffnNgO FIITZm156-BfoJV7dBLCne_pgiRhcHPK2Ai7z36745lcdR8nGW7eFY5wwsw= w835-h626-no

You definitely want to anchor the newel directly to the framing under neath. Screwing the base to the newel and then the base to the floor will not be rigid enough or strong enough. Here's a link to the Sure-Tite newel fastening bolts I used. There are other ways of doing it, but these are pretty easy to use and very strong.

https://www.amazon.com/Ascension-Stair-Parts-Sure-Tite-Fastener/dp/B01LX8YBEV/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1538253093&sr=8-4&keywords=sure-tite+newel+post+fastener

John

[Mike Kees]

John I have never seen those sure -tite bolts. Good to know. My philosophy is if you make it strong enough to withstand a bull elephant, it should survive teenage boys.Mike.

[laura vianello]

Based on your comment I still need to bolt the standalone newel post to the joist. The option described in my had drawings is a no no. Anyway looking at my situation and investigating a little more, I have few pictures to share. We have most likely a 2x8 and not a beam. Do I have other options: 1) May I have the newel post riding the 2x8 and bolt it through the post (twice) and the 2x8? 2) how do I beef up the 2x8? The 2x8 are actually 1939 2x8 and not as thin as the currently offered but still not a lot to attach. Here few additional pics. FYI, 3/4 hardwood floors will be put on top of this subfloor.

[John TenEyck]

It looks like you will be fine if you bolt the newel to that 2 x 8. But I suspect the centerline of your newel post will sit inboard of the 2 x 8. If so, you will have to pull up the flooring and screw a 2 x 8 , or 4 x 8, to it, between the joists on each side of where the newel goes.

John

[laura vianello]

Right, if I box the newel post it will be off center with the half post. I have a cabinet where the halp post would be. there is no flexibility there, I cannot move the location of the post because I have a knee wall cab. So I can either make the post "ride" the joist or ...here my final idea: what about having the newel post (both side) bolt on the side like a deck? It is a modern room, I do not mind some industrial look. I think it is called notched post. Would it work?

[Jim Becker]

Laura, the railings along our loft were installed lapped over the edge because that was the most secure way to retrofit them and the overhang was just built into the design. Nothing wrong with it. As I noted previously, lag bolts were used and then the countersinks (originally cut with a forstner bit on a DP) were plugged.

[laura vianello]

John, the 2x8 is too narrow to use a bolt from the bottom. I might have to bolt on the side of the newel post.

[laura vianello]

Jim, Thanks for your comment. Would you mind to share a picture? I am wondering if I have to cut the bottom of the post 45 degrees. I think that if I see an indoor application, I would feel better about the industrial look and my husband might like it too.TX

[Jim Becker]

Per your request...

394271 394272

[laura vianello]

One thing that I did not mention is that I am planning cable railing so to have the post in metal does not scare me....would it be easier than having a wood post? In addition the half post will be attached to a wall. The total straight rail is 48" including the post. So really a tiny railing that creates such a hassle.

[andrew whicker]

This is the only railing I've made, it's a cable style. Super stout. I used a huge angle iron (4" x 4" x .188" thk, if I remember correctly) at the base and tied into the joists from both top and side. The wall tie ins are 2x4's. I did not tie into the joists by putting a hole into the floor, but that would have made me feel more comfy. The vertical tie in really helped. I luckily didn't have a corner post to deal with.

Railings are worrisome and I don't think I'm in a hurry to install another one.

394275

[John TenEyck]

Laura, as Jim showed there's nothing wrong with lapping the newel over the side and lag bolting it to the side of the joist. For DIY it may be the easiest approach to provide the needed strength. If your newel happens to end up near half way between the two adjacent joists that meet the rim joist you are lagging into you may find that the newel is not very rigid laterally. If so, tear up the subfloor and add some blocking between those adjacent joists and from that blocking back to the rim joist where your newel will land. Like this:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/4f6qK9Wsomt9_5MRROkm8q34Wo9xyUJyku6SoPi1TkKhGTzSNJ TRJRK8cmXkZy8X-emYCr0Ni2ZQ1zaT-agYWJjmtlqmhHoaFs0PSTLflzFEgbwT0wZGxSWE63LxtxkmavZ wigoTlzs_XAmzoFiGaW0vyOJvIYpad4af69Raw3p7LYiCcHkHA AsVqFIwaol7xm73m_590Sv3IjatcNSt_lSeF7MjxJhHnDFAIFJ rX7C88H_NrqXHl-xNKzwklhIMQD_VRgYijvjf22ysG812Qvv4wEijriIjsbR2eMim _bqnnibAbfMalORahHuFBqlYHM-9FXBAYYCQCOkYJAMRLtdduTSOuLyfinUOvMH2SKJA56K9OVOrO GxLAZfElQuz_h7TDAEODcY9-i1Hvv5grWqLa5PawTdYetwkKAX5i4uxf_lnCSl1fmUfni5bGqE CihuCYu6nLZSA3KDgv0jBvfgpySGcAVOHb3LJL4LCkVHkZEawn WwWh7REsSPhM18T2eZs6owrj4xG98io60B6fSEdLAL-1DiM-ZdSch4Ko-xNNhZfR037qU7cOs3l3XY1pGv0IBg2NTTJQhii67RAU-ez84kZoXkXs4XdKUcIjaRt89-WtwOlV1uNZIVW9Ep_=w1006-h455-no

John

[laura vianello]

Absolutely love it!!!! I wish I could build the same. You have the same layout but "double". I need only one railing (left side) 48" long. You should write a white paper "how to". It is something I would love to have. I am thinking the same but with minimalist post (totally square no fuzz).

[Jim Dwight]

I completely rebuilt a staircase earlier this year. The rise varied between 8 inches and 11 inches. Fortunately the run was about 13 inches - really wide treads made by gluing flooring to the treads (I am not making this up). So I had the space to get the rises down to a consistent 7 1/8 with about a 11 inch run. The national code requires that a 4 inch ball not be able to pass through the balusters. So 4 inch spacing is OK but not 4 inch spaces between balusters. I used iron balusters. If you like the look, they are not that bad on price and are fairly easy to work with. You can make them really easy by spending more for screw on bases instead of drilling holes but I went old school with 5/8 holes for the bottom and 1/2 inch holes in the handrail for the top. With your very limited run of handrail, it wouldn't cost much at all for iron - if you like the look. Holes are also easier to drill when the handrail is not at an angle. If you use a solid baluster instead of cable, the balusters will help to stiffen up the handrail. The cable, if tensioned, will put additional stress on the posts.

I agree 100% with John - it is clear that he had a lot more experience with this than I do. I will add that the traditional way to fasten the newel post at the bottom of a run of stairs, is to bolt it to the stair stringer and the first riser. It sits in front of the riser so it is fastened something like you illustrate. Mine is done this way with construction adhesive and screws - not lag bolts. I know lags would have been better but I had limited space where I could get the posts to align (the stairs are at an L shape so the bottom newel has to align with the newel on the landing which in my case had to align with a wall the other end of the handrail fastens to). It is nicely solid and does not move. The fasteners are from the inside. If you can use lags I would but big screws with at least an inch of penetration into framing will hold, especially with construction adhesive.

The other fastener I used is trim head screws. I used them to fasten the handrail to the posts and the wall. If you can use more traditional fasteners it's a good idea but several trim head screws will also hold a handrail and go in really easy (pre-drill). A color matched wax crayon will hide the head well (after the finish is applied). I used construction adhesive to put the treads down and only added a trim head screw or two if the tread needed it. Treads lock to the risers with a dado that was glued (a traditional approach). I researched the traditional way of doing everything but didn't totally follow it. It's my house and everything is solid so I am happy with it. If I was doing work for somebody else, I would probably just stay traditional with everything.

The staircase I tore out was functional but had nothing but nails holding things together. No screws, no glue. I don't know how old that staircase is but the house is 50 years old. I didn't know they made finish nails that big. But I take some comfort that my construction is better than what I took out and it survived quite a while.

[laura vianello]

John, I feel good about lapping. The question is how: how many bolts, where and how long? How much can I trim the post to make sure it stay safe and sound? How big/thick should the post be. (the half post cannot be more than 3" wide). As you can see from my picture I would have the stairs on the side of the lapping. It would probably be safer to have the lapping on the other side but I cannot because the half post will be off centered. The lapping will be against a 2x6 (it is a ceiling joist because it is an attic and the ceiling joist is the floor base of the attic). This 2x6 joist edge is sitting on another thick wood which I have no idea what it is...I am not a builder. So if I do the lapping, should I do the lapping for the half post too? I guess it would look weird to have it only on one side. While a 3" half post (against the wall can be safely centered to the joist, the big stand alone would need to have the joist in the middle to be centered with the other. Very hard to describe buy I think pictures might help. May be I am overthinking it. Thanks for helping

[John TenEyck]

Laura the newels need to be wider than 3"; I would not want anything less than 3-1/2" as a minimum. But you could easily use something wider than that if you use a lap joint. OK, you only have 3" for the half newell against the wall. No problem. Lets say you make the newell 4" square and the half newell 4" x 2". If you make the lapped portion 1-1/2 - 2" it will still fit on the wall without causing interference to that access door, or whatever it is,

The half newell would be screwed to the wall framing. There's no need to bolt/screw the lapped portion to the floor joist. The stand alone newell would be cut like so:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/ZPiA_sH3Yqp8z8Ryt-BSG--b1OcWCvgsBwZ0C3iE8c-2lGDfY3l6Uio1Gu0hyzFNSlaZtUBnDk4Rh_YfiOZZVcJPRFSod lfFhBaENAl_oS3FCi_zalA-EbU2qZpDs8c3dqLQBq5B_zp-onqsEmxchw4VAfUczUezBLfu4ojdCTjaMFEjJRfvOygvNh5Rrk mztT49DIOL_WxPX4mcmsRUwDCfQ8jmzGrYMlQ9QqNgyW_uItIU BFN3SMiK1qxbv25VWQ4kz6tfDGWZp9DMTneeuQyalXLhDvJSo3 wqahL1QOroXEWGsYDm9SGFJq4j9F2QoVH3TBYdewm_ogKiO69h h67B1bNCIftHeHfgVhWXRp1hshd8ZaJF4YwuzVq11gr4DG7kLJ bRd2JkhL0hUAzQhzJQb-OvrTjE-FPW0qHo9Y-I6TXasFNQGxmNtxgXZ7BWCT41bO9yDrHLdDaPbYDL1lMOoFgBS QSQr5ZNlGYrWcvuaOEKsXTYkIxMlHl8lcsuzLUsZ4-dzIbOBRX0tria7DPjTHx9fo4vmQKAtDVm5Mah2ChIOE7L0G_Mz usrNtRi4vxN6UJgDnTcqAvj90fblckGdLILycsN5Z0u9R14hvA Cb8Copci2s0aCCN8c-R4FQQhhOoKIKmoL68_ngMtpP-kyroShSjfcF_NdX-D2cCjQDxWxDcPlpMJ9xw=w1362-h616-no


https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/3lL5WktSz_8Db8nmMHmWn3igRh_qwa_JTKjaaQzVlS0TRvF796 iAbY2AZwyhaE8lP_fFGXEmy_n2fa9-HR_KvyziR5_8SoqR6jInanwv8HRLq_u19ulS0DXqQQUqlR7K08 IY6AgeFycd2fkyL40G6haYUV_AMhrcnKulK8u42JU1ciKV-1d2N9uZo_r0Egwu4EpwbVXjv1JvCGLYkeaKqjvalmdl7soXk9Y dgzeQL74QiOnQe7BlJP4LNws5GnYSGUaMD-uUaQJJHp4Pw108JHd7fglunW8E_hQ3hvsJ0d2AsOTifuxWiIjB 1Hgj_LkymkF8r_Cr5b9ATScNuVJ_TDBg4daM9ANskt02meJNTC 9swteBYYUejm65nMP9AqJV20hP9WS8juqKYGbOZyotI2_UfNCQ EH_YnAlxq4nq0NEav-2DCJiPLIGgzomQF2a4sz6_fL6uFwzbwMhFETYulxLr9AljHWrA 6Q0VnPzp1FPNoMBtiyLL5ESbzmbcgLfnNQdnkcAHPUO40a4U-aBC4wTuu1CLv6lH88KnYB6yUyYGMUeh7PmZWmw44nQz31pcC_E B7jMZnXeJ4zgDb2Q9uu9nTfBElFPz8qLLxco-9KdB5RRA1rWXXaQAUNJvH7Nbc65lKJdWGOjiGnrkjY1vjUqfzH hoWaFhtKfPwbvpA1ZIxzwXq27yMCcYNw=w1362-h616-no


You will have to remove the flooring to do this, but it will be a lot stronger this way than with just a lap joint. You can make the needed cuts with a bandsaw or handsaw. Make it fit the exact width of the joist. If when you slid the newel in place it won't stand up plumb because the joist is cocked, then pare the joist and/or newel and glue in place shims as needed until it does. The short lap at the front puts the newel on the floor even with top of the stairs which looks better and improves safety. This arrangement also allows you to lag bolt the newel from the inside which both hides those bolt heads and makes the newel stronger to a lateral load towards the stairwell. While you have the subfloor off assess whether or not you need to add cripples and/or extra blocking to make sure the rim joist is strong enough for the task. Two 3/8" lag bolts with washers under the heads will do the job. If your newel is 4" I would use 3-1/2" lag bolts. Predrill the holes to avoid splitting. And use PL construction adhesive in the joint when you set the newel in place the last time.

John

If the task just seems too daunting I advise you to hire a pro. Balustrades are critical to safety and no place to take a chance.

[laura vianello]

I do not have HW flooring yet, just subfloor (3/4 T&G Fir dated 1929). We removed a couple of pieces to assess how the boxing could be done. That is when I figured out I had only a joist and not a real beam to work with. I would love to hire a pro but nobody wants to do a 48" long baluster. I cannot see your pictures. It looks like you attached 2 images but they are not shown. Thanks

[John TenEyck]

The sketches should be visible now; I hope.

Joists are typical of modern construction. It will be fine as long as it is well tied to the joists attached to it. If you see gaps at those joints screw some blocking into the joint in both directions, with some PL construction adhesive. As I mentioned before, add cripples and/or blocking where needed to make the newel as stiff as possible. Screwing the subfloor in place will help, too, but don't use construction adhesive just in case you ever have to get back in there.


John

[laura vianello]

Thanks for the clarifications John TenEyck,
Ok, If I understood correctly, you are suggesting what I called at the very beginning the "riding" post . What I meant was that the post with be lapping front and back (your s2nd sketchup). In this way I will be able to have the half and full post centered to the 2x8. Here what the trick is: 1) I cannot find a newel post bigger than 3" each side. I am looking for a square 42" high post (no fuss). I would say that the two laps will be way too thin with a 3" post riding the 2x8. Do I have to beef up the post with some 3/4 baltic birch in order to get to 4 1/2" at least? However I will still have the problem that 4 1/2 - 1 3/4= 2 3/4 which divided by 2 give me still too thin sections. It is true that the post attached to the wall will be quite sturdy and will help the stand alone but it looks like the lapping on one side it is the only solution I have. The question remain, how thick does the lap have to be? Please also note that I do not have the beams I red crossed.

[John TenEyck]

You can buy box newels in most any size you need. https://www.stairsupplies.com/product-category/wood-stair-parts/box-newels/craftsman-series-box-newels/ Glue a plug into the bottom so that it's solid and then cut your joinery. That's exactly how I built the newels I showed earlier. 4-1/2" - 1-3/4" = 2-3/4"/2 = 1-3/8" which is more than enough when it straddles the joist, but you can go bigger if you want. Your other option is to use a 3-1/2" solid newel, cut a single 1-3/4" lap in it and lag bolt it to the outside of the joist.

If the framing is insufficient add whatever cripples and blocking is needed when you have the subfloor up so that the newel will be rigid. Code says the railing has to resist a 200 lb lateral force anywhere along the balustrade. That's a big guy leaning with full body weight against it. Build accordingly.

John

[laura vianello]

Thanks John, I will keep shopping around. $250X2 is a lot of money for a room that has no ROI. The solution is there ...now I need to find the material without breaking the bank. Thanks again