Half-Blind Angled Dovetails

[Julie Moriarty]

I worked almost 5 hours cutting and chopping out the first of four pin and tail sets and I'm still not done. I'm hoping for some help in making this go a bit easier. FWIW, this is only my second hand cut dovetails.

This is the plan
http://julimorcreations.com/2220/GrtRm/CoffeeTbl/CofTbl_CAD01.jpg

Rather than those classic looking dovetails with the narrow pins, I went with structural strength. The table will have to hold up to being slid around on a laminate floor to clean around it.

The first tail took me about two hours to complete.
http://julimorcreations.com/2220/GrtRm/CoffeeTbl/CofTbl_011.jpg

http://julimorcreations.com/2220/GrtRm/CoffeeTbl/CofTbl_012.jpg

But the pins took even longer
http://julimorcreations.com/2220/GrtRm/CoffeeTbl/CofTbl_017.jpg

For the next set I plan on using a forstner bit to remove some of the waste. I have a Leigh D4 but it's such a pain to set up I've developed an aversion to using it. Any tips or suggestions?

Thanks.
Julie

[Derek Cohen]

Julie, I've done many angled dovetails. What is it you want to know?

Here's a video of those I did on drawers in a bow-fronted apothecary chest ...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oh4_iCVjyhU&feature=youtu.be

As a rule-of-thumb, anything with a curve or angled join will take 4 times longer than a square join.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Derek Cohen]

For the next set I plan on using a forstner bit to remove some of the waste. I have a Leigh D4 but it's such a pain to set up I've developed an aversion to using it. Any tips or suggestions?

I've used a trim router with a 1/8" upcut bit to clear the waste ...

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/TheApothecaryChestWeekend10_html_8c652eb.jpg

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/TheApothecaryChestWeekend10_html_m379988f8.jpg

When removing the remaining waste, I found that the thinner blades of the Blue Spruce "dovetail" chisels worked best to pare away thin slices to the line..

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/TheApothecaryChestWeekend10_html_m59bbb40f.jpg

The Blue Spruce fishtail chisel is my favourite for clearing the corners of sockets ...

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/TheApothecaryChestWeekend10_html_eaea57e.jpg

The completed socket ..

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/TheApothecaryChestWeekend10_html_m338d1b52.jpg

Link: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/TheApothecaryChestWeekend10.html


Regards from Perth

Derek

[Julie Moriarty]

Thanks, Derek. That's definitely the kind of joint I'm attempting.

The first set was all hand tools. The wood is sipo (utile) and seems just as hard as jatoba. The chisels I used most on the first set already need re-sharpening.

I fully expect the fitting to take another hour or more, each, and I know that's unavoidable, given my lack of experience and expertise. I was just hoping to find some way to reduce the time it takes to rough out the sockets. Forstner? Router? (kinda scary freehand)

Another question is with half-blind pins, since you can only saw out the edges partially, what tools should be used to get inside? Is it all just chisels?

I suppose if I had the D4 set up properly, the pins would be fairly easy. However using it on the tails would take some engineering. But I kind of wanted to do this by hand. I just don't want to be foolish about it and spend a week just for bragging rights.

[Derek Cohen]

Another question is with half-blind pins, since you can only saw out the edges partially, what tools should be used to get inside? Is it all just chisels?

Hi Julie

If you wish to be a pure Neanderthal, then saw the sockets, and clean them out with just a chisel. I have done my share this way, but now look for ways to do this with greater efficiency. I have drilled out some of the waste, and (above) used a trim router to great effect, since this also can level the floor.

Clearing waste from half blond dovetails with a chisel is easier when the sides of the socket extend the full depth. As you know, sawing only creates a diagonal cut, and does not extend the kerf all the way. For this reason I extend the kerf with a kerf chisel (it is not a chisel - just looks like one).

I also mark out for transferring tails to pins with blue tape. This is especially helpful when the wood is dark and it is difficult to see lines in end grain.

Here's an example of drilling waste ...

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/HalfBlindDovetailswithBlueTape_html_m471602d2.jpg

This is the kerf chisel in action ...

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/HalfBlindDovetailswithBlueTape_html_m479fb95e.jpg


Here is a short video of them in action (terrible video - I have only made a couple, and probably will never do so again!) ..


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0WnCX08eTX0&feature=youtu.be


Regards from Perth

Derek

[Julie Moriarty]

Thanks again, Derek! I've never heard of a kerf chisel.

As for going pure neanderthal, if that means no power tools, well, I'm not there yet. I like how you drilled out some of the waste. To me that doesn't void the concept of "hand cut" because so much is still done by hand.

[Gary Cunningham]

“Only your second set”? Then I’m a monkeys uncle. Those are very clean and precise.

Nice, very nice.

;)

[Warren Mickley]

I agree with Gary, the dovetails are precise and that is good news. As for speed, I think the fastest way is with chisels alone. The big help is to be able to quickly chisel the bulk of the waste without going over the lines and then finish up with more careful cuts. The more skilled you are the closer you can get to the lines with coarse work and the less cleaning up.

When chopping multiple sockets, do all your cutting in tandem: the same cut on every socket (three in your case). This saves time in positioning and changing tools and such. Making one socket at a time is considerably slower.

I have one concern about your design: it appears that the legs are only supported by the dovetail at the bottom. This makes them vulnerable to racking because of the great leverage involved. When we use dovetails for a box or frame, all for have to flex if one does because there are dovetails all around. If you have some way to tie the legs together at or near the top that would be very helpful.

[Julie Moriarty]

“Only your second set”? Then I’m a monkeys uncle. Those are very clean and precise.

Nice, very nice.

;)

Looks can be deceiving. Just banged the first two pieces home and it ain't pretty.
http://julimorcreations.com/2220/GrtRm/CoffeeTbl/CofTbl_018.jpg

This reminds me what it was about dovetails that kept me from starting many but completing only one.

[Derek Cohen]

Julie, the gaps between and around the sockets and tails looks pretty even. That suggests to me that there is either a little waste between the parts holding them apart, or a baseline wall is slightly tapered. Check this. It should close up at the baselines.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[David Eisenhauer]

Are the ends of the tails each dead-solid square? Are the pin socket end lines dead-solid square (vertical)?, and also, they can be slightly undercut so as to prevent any way possible holding off the perfect seating of the tail board. You can work with that dovetail as it is very close and the offset is consistent as Derek pointed out. Looks to me you are well beyond the "crawling" stage, into the "walking" stage and soon to be in the "running stage". Something only needs a fine tweak and, apparently, your basic technique is sound. I use one of those small sliding squares to check close tolerances in dovetails for dead-solid square that helps a lot.

[Julie Moriarty]

Are the ends of the tails each dead-solid square? Are the pin socket end lines dead-solid square (vertical)?
Probably both are not square. Though they look it when I've put a square to them. Inexperience, old eyes, etc. The problem is most likely that the inside, that I used to mark the pins, was larger than the outside.

Also, when trying to drive the tail home, it kept stopping shy of being fully seated. I'd go back and chisel away wherever it looked tight and pared using guides but it kept coming up shy. I ended up shaving a bit off the inside of the tail ends to get it to seat fully. I suppose trying to make dovetails that are so thick adds to the difficulty of making angled half-blind dovetails.

I'm not ready to give up yet. I have some other ideas floating around in my head I want to try.

[Jim Koepke]

I've never heard of a kerf chisel.

A piece of an old saw blade can be used as a "kerf chisel."

Here is a different design than the one Derek made:

393509

It helps to make the work quicker and neater.

jtk

[Julie Moriarty]

A piece of an old saw blade can be used as a "kerf chisel."

Here is a different design than the one Derek made:

It helps to make the work quicker and neater.

jtk

I was thinking of first trying a Dozuki saw I have like this
393511
I could peck away at the inside with the woodpecker tooth. The sipo I have can be pretty gnarly and at times has a mind of its own. A saw is more controllable than a chisel, at least from what I've seen of this wood so far in this exercise.

I'm also going to lay some blue tape over the wood before marking, as Derek showed in his video. That will better define the edges and make them easier to see with these far-sighted eyes. They are better suited for spotting land on the horizon than for micro-surgery. :rolleyes:

[Brian Holcombe]

Are you using a knife to layout? If you are then always retain the knife line.

Probably the guide block slipped when you were chopping.

Beginners have a habit of chopping with the bevel up. This drives the force of the chisel toward the baseline. Chop using the bevel (bevel down) which gives you mechanical advantage and helps the waste move out quickly.

Bevel up (or out) is extremely hard on the chisel. I use it only for th walls or floor after the waste us out.

[Julie Moriarty]

Yes, I'm using a knife but the line was still hard to see. I rubbed sawdust over it to highlight it and that helped but unfortunately I think the big problem is the eyes. They aren't so good up close anymore.

[Derek Cohen]

Julie, you are a candidate for the blue tape method. My 68-year old eyes are not what they used to be. So I began using blue tape to outline the dovetails several years ago. It works amazingly well! Good lighting is another important ingredient.

A recent article: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/HalfBlindDovetailswithBlueTape.html

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/HalfBlindDovetailswithBlueTape_html_m4f882f92.jpg


Regards from Perth

Derek

[Julie Moriarty]

I'm right behind you in age, Derek. And far-sighted to boot. My near-sighted friends can't understand why I can't see up close as well as them. But then I ask them why they can't see that road sign way up ahead. ;)

I've got the next tail taped, marked and tape removed in waste areas. I'm interested to see how this goes. Just have to make sure I don't cut into the tape!

[Julie Moriarty]

Interesting so far... I followed the tape almost perfectly on the first cut.
http://julimorcreations.com/2220/GrtRm/CoffeeTbl/CofTbl_019.jpg

On the second cut, with the saw on the right side of the tape, I strayed a bit. I need to learn how to saw left handed. :rolleyes:

When I flipped it over, on the side that will be exposed, I saw this:
http://julimorcreations.com/2220/GrtRm/CoffeeTbl/CofTbl_020.jpg

That little I strayed translated to much more on the flip side. I think I'll cut from this side. It may be easier to start on a more angled point but this is the side that will show.

[Jim Koepke]

A saw is more controllable than a chisel, at least from what I've seen of this wood so far in this exercise.

A kerfing tool/chisel is used in the saw cut to bring it down to the base line. In a blind tail or socket, the saw can only cut part of the way. The kerf tool/chisel/piece of old saw blade or whatever finishes the cut.

Do not put a bevel on the kerfing tool. You may want to used clamps on woods prone to split.


It may be easier to start on a more angled point but this is the side that will show.

Interesting situation, with western (push) saws my joinery cuts are always made from the show side so the saw chipping of the edges is less likely to be seen. Maybe this isn't as much of a tendency with a pull saw.

jtk

[Derek Cohen]

Saw from the show side.

With drawer fronts, the show side is outside. With drawer backs, the show side is inside.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Mark Rainey]

Julie, we all, at one time or another, have cut dovetails that are less than perfect. Shim them, keep taking tips from the talented forum members, and keep sawing & move on.

[Julie Moriarty]

Julie, we all, at one time or another, have cut dovetails that are less than perfect.

But you have the advantage of knowing things are repairable. All I ever see is perfection. Except for recently. :o

What I haven't seen yet is dovetails on wood as thick as what I'm working on, except maybe in timber frame construction. I'm learning the importance of having everything perfectly square. I should be happy I'm not trying something like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hk4cwtQJmwU

[Mark Rainey]

Wow!! When I grow up I want to be able to saw like Theo Cook! I have to confess that I have cut dovetails looser than yours, shimmed them to look perfect, people have ooohed & ahhed, & the piece is solid for years.

[Tom M King]

I have a hard time leaving the line when using a knife. I'm so used to using sharp no. 4 pencils (old Mikado, and Mirado's specifically), that I get better results off the saw with them. The line is taken off whichever part is cut first, just to get rid of it, and left on the second part cut, because you have to leave the line if you want tight joints.

[Brian Holcombe]

You can saw from both sides, or the show side. On critical stuff I certainly saw from both sides.

[Julie Moriarty]

Got the second tail done. This one looks better. I removed a lot of the waste with forstner bits. What a time saver. And the blue tape worked great!
http://julimorcreations.com/2220/GrtRm/CoffeeTbl/CofTbl_021.jpg

Then got the second pin taped, marked and waste exposed. I was so anxious to remove waste I took the piece to the drill press before sawing. Then I looked at it on the workbench and wondered how I was going to chisel to the lines. Brain you-know-what. Thankfully, I didn't drill into the saw lines. The woodpecker tooth got pretty deep into the cut. I think this one will go a lot faster then the other one.
http://julimorcreations.com/2220/GrtRm/CoffeeTbl/CofTbl_022.jpg

There's a 700# baby sitting in the garage crying for me now. I may not get any more dovetailing done today.

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Julie

Your work looks excellent - clean and tidy. Nice.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Julie Moriarty]

Thank you, Derek. And thanks again for the blue tape tip. I was getting so frustrated trying to see the lines on the first one, I was thinking of abandoning it. I even took out the D4 to see if I could figure out a way to make that work. But the blue tape saved the day. Thumbs up! :)

[Normand Leblanc]

Hi Jim,

How have you sharpen your kerf chisel saw? Like a standard chisel with one side flat or is the edge right in the middle of the blade thickness.

Same question for Derek.

Thanks.

[Derek Cohen]

Normand, the kerfing chisel blade is left square (like a scraper blade). No bevel - a bevel will follow and split the grain.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Julie Moriarty]

Normand, the kerfing chisel blade is left square (like a scraper blade). No bevel - a bevel will follow and split the grain.

Regards from Perth

Derek

You just gave me a good idea! (I think) Take a scraper and file some teeth at the end. Tap it lightly into the sawed slot and pull out. Kind of of like what I was doing with the woodpecker tooth on the dozuki saw. The difference being the scraper blade would allow for the first tooth to be closer to the tip.

[Vincent Tai]

Just using the scraper as is (maybe cut a kerf into a block of wood and make a tapping block to stop a hammer from damaging the scraper) would be faster. Doesn't take too many taps. The kerf is very thin, I can use my hand as the striking object for some of small (shallow) pins. I have yet to split a piece. A clamp to prevent splitting can't be a bad idea. There's a big thread about kerfing out half blind dovetails somewhere here. Lie Nielsen's YT channel has someone (Steve Latta IIRC) demonstrating using a scraper in this fashion. Hope that helps.

[Jason Lester]

You just gave me a good idea! (I think) Take a scraper and file some teeth at the end. Tap it lightly into the sawed slot and pull out. Kind of of like what I was doing with the woodpecker tooth on the dozuki saw. The difference being the scraper blade would allow for the first tooth to be closer to the tip.

Rob Cosman teaches a method like that now I think. His marking knife has a toothed blade the same thickness as his saw plate. I was supposed to be in a class with him tomorrow to learn that method, but it got postponed to October.

[Vincent Tai]

He doesn't use the knife for waste removal in half-blind dovetails, he uses it to mark out pins. The technique is to not remove the waste from the tail piece, offset the tail piece over by the width of the sawplate when transferring the tail layout to the pin board, using the special knife to create a kerf that in theory should be the exact place it can be. You place the knife in the kerf of the tail piece and drag and make/mark out a kerf on the pin board. You can use the saw itself to mark but if your saw is as heavy as Cosman's that's very cumbersome and you'll likely prick a couple fingers. If you have a light saw it is still uncomfortable but very bearable. A quick search on Youtube and his YT channel will show you a couple videos of him demonstrating this. It is a really accurate technique; I've tried it and I think for most work an experienced person will do just fine sticking with knife lines. Might be of interest to beginners tough, It's sort of hard to mess up albeit it might take a while longer.

[Derek Cohen]

I came across this video of Frank Klausz using a scraper blade to deepen a kerf (around the 7:50 mark) ...


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vKuy3NdLhlE&ebc=ANyPxKrA0p-mmIS_Cmj-eB_7ZZCVOki-lkzBPSwosXtYfuQIDgrH_7C5TUkT6deXvNrLsKd6RrwlJKvMVP Yb_VSOqtLF71mfiw

Notice how easily he hammers the blade into the wood. Clearly, it is very soft wood. Hard woods require a more cautious approach, which includes clamping the ends of the board, and taking small bites.

My pictoria: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/KerfChisel.html

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Jim Koepke]

Normand, the kerfing chisel blade is left square (like a scraper blade). No bevel - a bevel will follow and split the grain.

Regards from Perth

Derek


Same answer, no bevel on the kerfing tool. Before the Ron Bontz tool came my way an old piece of saw blade was used.

My recollection is one well known woodworker uses an old piece of bandsaw blade with the teeth filed off.

jtk

[John Schtrumpf]

I came across this video of Frank Klausz using a scraper blade to deepen a kerf (around the 7:50 mark) ...


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vKuy3NdLhlE&ebc=ANyPxKrA0p-mmIS_Cmj-eB_7ZZCVOki-lkzBPSwosXtYfuQIDgrH_7C5TUkT6deXvNrLsKd6RrwlJKvMVP Yb_VSOqtLF71mfiw

Notice how easily he hammers the blade into the wood. Clearly, it is very soft wood. Hard woods require a more cautious approach, which includes clamping the ends of the board, and taking small bites.

My pictoria: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/KerfChisel.html

Regards from Perth

Derek
Or if you watch the rest of the video. You will see that he doesn't use the scraper when doing the walnut face of the actual drawer.

[Warren Mickley]

Or if you watch the rest of the video. You will see that he doesn't use the scraper when doing the walnut face of the actual drawer.

Yes, I noticed that too. In my shop I have some real Queen Anne drawer fronts (270 years old) made of walnut. You can see that they did not use the scraper banging method. If one is better with a router than with a chisel, I can see using a router to hog waste. Otherwise I am skeptical about time saved, especially considering setup.

Maybe Frank overheard some guys say "This guy doesn't know what he is doing. Frid would have used a scraper." So he puts it in there just so you know he knows about it. I tried it myself a few times about forty years ago.