Why does Lee Valley have problems delivering PM-V11 products on time?

[Adam Fort]

Love the company and its tools, but I've never ordered any item with a PM-V11 blade that didn't arrive extremely late. Just found out that a chisel I ordered in July is not expected to ship until November. This was the 3rd or 4th time it's been pushed back, and now I seriously wonder if it will even arrive this calendar year.

Anyone know what's going on?

[sean contenti]

That's an unfortunate circumstance.

I can say that I've purchased a fair amount of PM-V11 product in the past couple years, much of it listed as out of stock when I placed the order. I don't think anything I've backordered came in later than the website's "estimated blah blah" time though.

I'd guess that LV customer service would be more than willing to cancel the order and refund if you didn't want to wait. That wouldn't get you the chisel, but it'd get the cash back into your pocket until they have some in stock.

[David Bassett]

The chisel has a torrefied handle, you don't say which other products you're talking about, but I'm guessing they also have handles. Changes in regulations (CITES?) caught LV off guard and switching to torrefied maple in production quantities has taken them longer than hoped and left them with a supply hole they are still digging out of. (This has been discussed here, with LV participation, since at least last spring.)

[Adam Fort]

Last year I ordered the skew rabbet plane with a PM-V11 blade and it was pushed back for at least three months, I had to cancel and replace with 01 because I needed to use it. The blade then was, in fact, the problem, because I called them and asked about it and they immediately shipped one with a 01 blade. I have plenty of chisels to do chisel work, but I love the LV chisels and use them as my primary set. I think what's most bothersome is that they don't tell me about these delays. I have to login to my account and check the order status. Finding out that it's now a four-month wait that isn't even guaranteed is a bit annoying.

[David Bassett]

First I've heard about a PM-V11 supply issue. Good luck. I expect they'll get caught up as soon as they can and, I imagine, be along tomorrow with more info.

[Jim Koepke]

First I've heard about a PM-V11 supply issue. Good luck. I expect they'll get caught up as soon as they can and, I imagine, be along tomorrow with more info.

Is the PM-V11 sourced in Canada?

Could their be problems within the current international trade situation causing the problem?

jtk

[Van Huskey]

I would imagine it is supply from the mill issues. Small lot buyers even for what I imagine is a "standard" alloy get less than favorable treatment from mills.

[David Bassett]

... Could their be problems within the current international trade situation causing the problem? ...

It crossed my mind, but I wasn't going to go there (for the fear of getting the thread closed. :) )

I checked several different PM-V11 products and all are "Made in Canada". I don't believe that says anything about raw materials though and with everyone applying tariffs to everyone else's steel I wouldn't be surprised if there were some problems.

[Vincent Tai]

Up here in Canada a good portion of the tool steels etc come from the States. The prices for W2 from my local provincial supplier have increased quite a bit from when I first got it a couple years back. I also wouldn't be surprised if LV ran into a few issues with steel. Every time I have a pint thats an inch of W2 so now there are no pints to have. For at least a month. :(

[Noah Magnuson]

Adam. PM sent.

[Simon MacGowen]

I think what's most bothersome is that they don't tell me about these delays. I have to login to my account and check the order status. Finding out that it's now a four-month wait that isn't even guaranteed is a bit annoying.
This is proof that somewhere a customer service system crack exists. It needs to be looked at and fixed.

The crack was not known to the management or the customers because LV never failed in its delivery in such a widespread scale and in such a prolonged period.

Simon

[Kees Heiden]

PMV-11 is the same as Cartech CTS-XHP steel from Carpenter. We had several discussions about this a few years back.

I don't know where they make this steel. They do have a plant in China. There is also a division, Carpenter Powder Products in Sweden.

[Wojciech Tryc]

Love the company and its tools, but I've never ordered any item with a PM-V11 blade that didn't arrive extremely late. Just found out that a chisel I ordered in July is not expected to ship until November. This was the 3rd or 4th time it's been pushed back, and now I seriously wonder if it will even arrive this calendar year.

Anyone know what's going on?
Same here, just ordered a set of PMV-11 chisels and few of them are back ordered. The ATA for 1" is mid November...I also see that the dates are changing....
In the past, I've experienced similar situation with my Jack plane and was told that delay was due to difficulties with mass production of terrified maple handles/totes.

[Simon MacGowen]

PMV-11 is the same as Cartech CTS-XHP steel from Carpenter. We had several discussions about this a few years back.

I don't know where they make this steel. They do have a plant in China. There is also a division, Carpenter Powder Products in Sweden.

I don't know anything about patent laws. But could LV patent(?) its PMV11 if it was the same steel as another that also existed?

By "same," do you mean same performance?

Simon

[Pete Taran]

There is a difference between a patent and a Trade or Service Mark. The steel that makes up the blade could be patented. If a company wanted to take that steel and put a name on it that has importance for sales, then that is called a Service Mark. They are also registered by the Patent Office. The little R with a circle around it denotes this fact. Curious myself, I searched the USPTO trademark data base and found this: http://tmsearch.uspto.gov/bin/showfield?f=doc&state=4803:8znyt2.3.1

PM-V11 is indeed a registered trademark of Lee Valley. The steel it's made from could be called Jack's wonder dust, but if Lee Valley uses it and applies this mark, it becomes PM-V11.

Said another way, Lee Valley is using a commercially available steel and then applying their trademark to it, which is the part that makes it protected. If another company wants to use the same exact steel for the same exact use, they certainly can, but they can't call it or refer to it as PM-V11

Hope this clears it up.

Pete

[Simon MacGowen]

There is a difference between a patent and a Trade or Service Mark. The steel that makes up the blade could be patented. If a company wanted to take that steel and put a name on it that has importance for sales, then that is called a Service Mark. They are also registered by the Patent Office. The little R with a circle around it denotes this fact. Curious myself, I searched the USPTO trademark data base and found this: http://tmsearch.uspto.gov/bin/showfield?f=doc&state=4803:8znyt2.3.1

PM-V11 is indeed a registered trademark of Lee Valley. The steel it's made from could be called Jack's wonder dust, but if Lee Valley uses it and applies this mark, it becomes PM-V11.

Said another way, Lee Valley is using a commercially available steel and then applying their trademark to it, which is the part that makes it protected. If another company wants to use the same exact steel for the same exact use, they certainly can, but they can't call it or refer to it as PM-V11

Hope this clears it up.

Pete

Excellent explanation, Pete. Thanks for that. It sure makes sense to promote a product with a registered name, if the (sales) benefits outweigh the (patent) costs.

Simon

[Joe Rogers]

Registered products are a weapon that corporations use to protect their investment. Rob has in the past posted about his familys efforts to protect their products place in the market against knock off from unscrupulous vendors.
See Wood River.
”Hello. I have a factory in China and I can make this for you very cheaply...”
Joe

[Pete Taran]

Joe,

No question, that is what patents and trademarks are all about.

[Adam Fort]

Mine is also the 1".
Appreciate the input from everyone.

[Simon MacGowen]

Registered products are a weapon that corporations use to protect their investment. Rob has in the past posted about his familys efforts to protect their products place in the market against knock off from unscrupulous vendors.
See Wood River.
”Hello. I have a factory in China and I can make this for you very cheaply...”
Joe

Being able to register a product and being able to defend it are not the same thing. Smaller companies do not have the resources to sue someone in China even if they have patented or registered their products (that is why they don't bother to waste the money with registration or what not). After all, SawStop's case against Bosch was not a common example, and many did not think SawStop would have the resources to go after Bosch in the infringement case.

Wood River infringing on whose product rights or patents, by the way?

Simon

[Simon MacGowen]

I'd guess that LV customer service would be more than willing to cancel the order and refund if you didn't want to wait. That wouldn't get you the chisel, but it'd get the cash back into your pocket until they have some in stock.

Unless the payment process has changed, I don't think they charge you for a backorder until the goods is shipped out.

Simon

[Wojciech Tryc]

Unless the payment process has changed, I don't think they charge you for a backorder until the goods is shipped out.

Simon
Since I purchased it as a kit, I endup paying upfront, otherwise I would have to pay for each individual items (around $95 CDN more)...

[Hasin Haroon]

I imagine they have some sort of issue with supply...the current trade environment must pose some difficulties to a relatively small company like Lee Valley. When I purchased my PM-V11 chisel set sometime last year they were backordered for several months according to the website, so I went in store and bought the last set they had.

Literally the last set - they had to get some of the sizes out of the display case in store and find packaging for me (I insisted on packaging, they asked if I was ok just taking the chisel). It felt a little odd, especially for a set of $500 chisels, but none of them were used (they have some chisels meant for use in store) as evidenced by the grey backs so I was ok with it as I needed them then. Not much help to you if you live somewhere without a store nearby but if you do, they may have them in store. Either way, you'll receive them sooner or later, and they are great chisels, worth the wait.

As a side note - I do still believe Lee Valley should include a chisel roll of some sort with the set of PM-V11...they are fairly pricey chisels, and it's pretty common for chisels at half that price, such as the new Stanley Sweethearts (very nice leather roll) or the Ashley Iles (a more basic denim roll). It would make the packaging look less austere than it does now.

[Simon MacGowen]

Since I purchased it as a kit, I sendup paying upfront, otherwise I would have to pay for each individual items (around $95 CDN more)...

Now that you talked about the kit, it reminded me that my wife did pay for her order (not a kit) when she backordered something, but I did not remember if the credit card payment was processed right away.

Simon

[John C Cox]

Rob has also previously commented about being swamped by demand....

It’s a good problem to have and I think it speaks to the buying public’s opinion of the current state of the hand tools market...... AKA... Not everybody loves Aldi chisels and Harbor Freight planes....

[Adam Fort]

Rob has also previously commented about being swamped by demand....

It’s a good problem to have and I think it speaks to the buying public’s opinion of the current state of the hand tools market...... AKA... Not everybody loves Aldi chisels and Harbor Freight planes....

It may be a good problem for Lee Valley, but it is not a good problem for the customer when you are told in July that it will be delivered August, then in August you are told it will be late Sept., then in Sept. you are told it will be Nov. 9, and that the way you are told is by happening to login to your account one day and see the change that was never communicated to you any other way. What assurances do I have that it will be Nov. 9? I have ordered from Lee Valley for years and they have been nothing but stellar when it comes to customer service when I've had some minor issues. I live nowhere close to Canada but was able to visit a store for the first time this year and enjoyed talking to the people there who were very helpful. I am grateful this company exists. If they are truly doing all they can do, and if my orders just happen to coincide with some unplanned delay in the supply chain, I'm OK with that. At the same time I wish communication about the delays were better.

By the way, Aldi chisels have their place. Are they my preferred chisel for nice furniture? No. But I don't use my preferred chisels for grunt work.

[Pete Taran]

AKA... Not everybody loves Aldi chisels and Harbor Freight planes....

+1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 ,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000

[Simon MacGowen]

+1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 ,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000

Quite a strong statement, but still not strong enough as it is still smaller than a googleplex.:D

Simon

[Charles Guest]

Love the company and its tools, but I've never ordered any item with a PM-V11 blade that didn't arrive extremely late. Just found out that a chisel I ordered in July is not expected to ship until November. This was the 3rd or 4th time it's been pushed back, and now I seriously wonder if it will even arrive this calendar year.

Anyone know what's going on?

There's not much of an excuse that holds water for a four or five month delay unless you've ordered a Lamborghini in a special color. A woodworking chisel or plane iron ? No way.

[Tony Wilkins]

When PMV-11 was first introduced, it was mentioned that they had to work with mills and their orders weren’t a priority and there could be up to six month delays in their orders.

[Simon MacGowen]

When PMV-11 was first introduced, it was mentioned that they had to work with mills and their orders weren’t a priority and there could be up to six month delays in their orders.

That is a problem easy to handle without offending any potential customers: Suspend selling any PMV11 goods until the steel delivery is received. The communication and delay problems the OP reports arose only because something was oversold. When the existing inventory goes below certain pre-set level, the system will flag the controller who can then decide to stop the sales or not.

Simon

[Wojciech Tryc]

That is a problem easy to handle without offending any potential customers: Suspend selling any PMV11 goods until the steel delivery is received. The communication and delay problems the OP reports arose only because something was oversold. When the existing inventory goes below certain pre-set level, the system will flag the controller who can then decide to stop the sales or not.

Simon

When I placed my order, I was fully aware of a long delay... It's not the end of the World and I can live with that. Let's don't forget that there is always an option to cancel or simply do not place your order if you are not willing to wait. The ETA dates are listed, and I am sure that Lee Valley is trying to do everything to meet their commitments in order to satisfy their customers. This situation doesn't really bother me, but this is just my point of view.

[Simon MacGowen]

When I placed my order, I was fully aware of a long delay... It's not the end of the World and I can live with that.

Was your situation the same as the OP's?

"This was the 3rd or 4th time it's been pushed back, and now I seriously wonder if it will even arrive this calendar year."

Of course, a long delay was acceptable if you knew about it and were prepared to wait for it. Was the OP fully aware of the repeated push-backs that would happen when he placed his order? I doubt it.

Simon

[Bill McNiel]

Without entering into any of the off topic discussions I would submit the following as an answer to the OP's original question- SUPPLY AND DEMAND. FWIW-I too am waiting for a 1" PMV 11 chisel.

[Pat Barry]

Its irresponsible to take orders that you know you can't deliver on. This is atypical of LV from my experience. It does seem that improvements in communication are necessary though, and much improvement in delivery forecasting.

[steven c newman]

"Ya pays yer money, ya takes yer chances" Not like you people haven't seen this issue before, is it? And why isn't Derek on this thread, to defend that company? Hmmm.

[Les Groeller]

"Ya pays yer money, ya takes yer chances" Not like you people haven't seen this issue before, is it? And why isn't Derek on this thread, to defend that company? Hmmm.

And why would you need to make a comment like that about another forum member?

[steven c newman]

Ran out of Popcorn.

[Simon MacGowen]

And why would you need to make a comment like that about another forum member?

Because he is at odds with Derek, and he in general does not like people going after new tools. In his world, Stanley, Record, Preston, and all vintage tools should be the only tools woodworkers should buy and use.

I like his independent way of woodworking and sharing, but he has been becoming a little close-minded (lately?), mirroring Paul Sellers's "My way or high way" attitude. He condemns the use of jigs, like shooting boards, but himself is a fan of the miterbox which others can argue is a crutch too. He often looks down on new products such as the new Veritas pocket plane, wondering why people would spend money on it, blah blah blah.

He takes things too personal, clouding his objectivity and judgment, if you ask me.

Simon

[Charles Guest]

Without entering into any of the off topic discussions I would submit the following as an answer to the OP's original question- SUPPLY AND DEMAND. FWIW-I too am waiting for a 1" PMV 11 chisel.

Possibly, but not in the traditional meaning I believe you have in mind. I would imagine it's shrinking demand causing even longer delays with the contract supplier as they will only process orders of a certain minimum size. If demand shrinks enough, PM-V11 products could become functionally unavailable as the very long waiting times will cause almost all backorders to cancel and then a cycle ensues in which a minimum order quantity can never be hit, or the cash outlay for the retailer is too high for the minimum run vs. the orders it can fill. With waiting times measured in months rather than a few weeks, this scenario might be starting to play out, and this is regardless of whether the company warned about it or not. I guess you might wait five months for a woodworking chisel as almost an afterthought assuming you have others to work with in the interim. It's still not good, especially when the 'newness' of it all begins to peter out.

Every retailer that goes out of house with a specially branded or sourced product runs this risk. Every one.

In the situation that's being described, delivery times will actually shorten to the end customer when overall demand goes up since the retailer is making minimum order size with its manufacturer/supplier more rapidly and more frequently. If demand is steady and high enough, the supplier would go into more or less continuous production on behalf of the retailer but that's not likely to happen given the nature of the product and raw material we're discussing here.

I doubt demand for PM-V11 product is stronger today than when first introduced. I could be wrong, but I doubt it. So L-V's problem is having to place the same large order(s) for steel against shrinking demand. You figure out how that plays out. If you love the stuff, I'd order all you can stand and I'd order it now.

[Hilton Ralphs]

Its irresponsible to take orders that you know you can't deliver on. This is atypical of LV from my experience. It does seem that improvements in communication are necessary though, and much improvement in delivery forecasting.


Lee Valley has never taken my money for an order that they couldn't ship immediately. That's how they work. The only grey area is when a part (like a plane blade) is not a separate item from a sales perspective.

To reiterate, you can only purchase what they have in stock. By purchase I mean part with your money in return for some item.

Pushing back the delivery date of a sub-part is really what this thread is all about.

[Tony Zaffuto]

Lee Valley does an excellent job of noting on their website availability of products and has never charged my card for any items that were not in stock. Rob Lee has made mention of delay issues caused by wood species, and as of late, another issue MAY be the state of flux the steel industry is in.

[Charles Guest]

As others may have mentioned, it's against the law to charge a credit or debit card if the product is not ready to ship.

[Tom Stenzel]

One possibility is that Lee Valley is a victim of their own high standards. They could have received a shipment of metal and they found it wasn't up to snuff. There's a number of reasons they could have been blindsided and unable to ship a product when they thought they could.

-Tom

[Adam Fort]

Lee Valley does an excellent job of noting on their website availability of products and has never charged my card for any items that were not in stock. Rob Lee has made mention of delay issues caused by wood species, and as of late, another issue MAY be the state of flux the steel industry is in.


The issue is not charging my card. Of course they do an excellent job of noting what isn't in stock. But they do a terrible job of estimating when it will be back in stock. I was told in July that delivery would be August. Then in August I was told September. Now in September I am being told November. And, again, when I say "I was told" I mean "I was not told." I found out on my own by logging into the site and seeing my order status. I'd rather the delivery date say "Unknown" than repeatedly being given a shipping date, which is never the shipping date.

Again, I don't want to come across as being irrationally harsh because I am genuinely grateful for what Lee Valley offers, but I have to ask what the heck is going on? Because this issue has happened every single time I've ordered something with PM-V11. Maybe I just ran into bad luck with the timing of my orders. I understand Lee Valley cannot control all variables, I understand supply and demand. What I do not understand is why they haven't figured out a better way to inform customers about this sort of thing, like perhaps put a little message on their site to explain what's happening on their end. Saying Rob Lee has mentioned X, Y, Z doesn't help with people like me who never knew Rob Lee has mentioned X, Y, Z or where he mentioned it. Lee Valley is a respectable business, not a secret club.

[Tony Zaffuto]

The issue is not charging my card. Of course they do an excellent job of noting what isn't in stock. But they do a terrible job of estimating when it will be back in stock. I was told in July that delivery would be August. Then in August I was told September. Now in September I am being told November. And, again, when I say "I was told" I mean "I was not told." I found out on my own by logging into the site and seeing my order status. I'd rather the delivery date say "Unknown" than repeatedly being given a shipping date, which is never the shipping date.

Again, I don't want to come across as being irrationally harsh because I am genuinely grateful for what Lee Valley offers, but I have to ask what the heck is going on? Because this issue has happened every single time I've ordered something with PM-V11. Maybe I just ran into bad luck with the timing of my orders. I understand Lee Valley cannot control all variables, I understand supply and demand. What I do not understand is why they haven't figured out a better way to inform customers about this sort of thing, like perhaps put a little message on their site to explain what's happening on their end. Saying Rob Lee has mentioned X, Y, Z doesn't help with people like me who never knew Rob Lee has mentioned X, Y, Z or where he mentioned it. Lee Valley is a respectable business, not a secret club.

Quite simply, if I were in your shoes, I would explore another product or vendor, for what will do the job at hand. Sharp is sharp!

[Simon MacGowen]

Quite simply, if I were in your shoes, I would explore another product or vendor, for what will do the job at hand. Sharp is sharp!

Quite simply, you are saying good customer communication does not matter. I hope Lee Valley is not listening to you for advice.

Simon

[Tony Zaffuto]

Must be something goingvaround! I have never seen SMC so argumentative!

[Pete Taran]

Because he is at odds with Derek, and he in general does not like people going after new tools. In his world, Stanley, Record, Preston, and all vintage tools should be the only tools woodworkers should buy and use.

Simon

Unless of course they are Aldi Chisels. He's up in that like white on rice!

My perspective on this is easy. Every company has swings and misses. This is likely one. Being carpy on the interwebs about it doesn't make it get better. A PM to Rob who is a member here and owns the company would seem to me to be the first recourse if you think your voice isn't being heard.

Maybe try the PM method and see what happens.

Pete

[Tony Zaffuto]

Something in the air today Pete!

[Charles Guest]

To the OP: You've done all that could be expected. I'd learn to love another tool steel if I were you.

[Adam Fort]

Quite simply, if I were in your shoes, I would explore another product or vendor, for what will do the job at hand. Sharp is sharp!

I began exploring in the previous century, but thanks. I have enough chisels in my shop that can do any job. I prefer Lee Valley over all other Western chisels.

[Hasin Haroon]

Something is in the air every single day (or thread) Tony. These pot shots at other members are not uncommon.

[Rob Lee]

Love the company and its tools, but I've never ordered any item with a PM-V11 blade that didn't arrive extremely late. Just found out that a chisel I ordered in July is not expected to ship until November. This was the 3rd or 4th time it's been pushed back, and now I seriously wonder if it will even arrive this calendar year.

Anyone know what's going on?

Hi Adam -

Please accept my apologies for the delay on the 1" chisel. Over the past several months we have been facing a number of challenges in our manufacturing operation.

First and foremost - we had the previously mentioned sudden requirement to switch woods, which caused a backlog in a large portion of the product line. We have now solved that problem, but as we were accumulating the backlog, our operation hit full capacity (and remains there) making it difficult to get out of the hole. Not only do we have physical space limitations, but have now maxed out the power supply to the building. To really add to the fun - for the past year or more we have not been able to fill all available open positions (this is a government town , not a manufacturing one....).

We have been working with a consulting firm to increase our productivity given current constraints - working smarter, and not necessarily harder (though we are doing that too). One of the ways we are doing this is by spending more time running product, and less time doing machine set-ups (a complex machine set-up, and we have a lot of them, can take up to two days). This means intervals between production runs gets longer, though quantities are higher when we do run them. Running something like chisels means a larger run of each size....and ultimately a longer time to get any single size back on track. Larger lot sizes also make for much more work in process, as we have to wait for all component parts to be finished before an assembly run.

PM-V11 is a custom steel, and not a stock item. We have to order many months in advance of our requirement (I believe about 6) and even then, are subject to getting bumped by a larger customer needing a different product. We have to order a complete mill run of steel, and can only run a couple of formats per run (a thickness of plate, or a cross section of bar or rod).

Throwing new product into the mix - demand patterns can change quickly, and strain resources as well.

So - we have some rapidly changing conditions in a system that can just not respond quickly. Nor, at this time, can we effectively scale for excess capacity. These are all "good" problems to have - in that they are related to growth. They are all "bad" problems with respect to being able to respond quickly.

The situation we have now has had our full attention for several months, and we are in the process of addressing it for the forseeable future. To relieve much of the pressure, we have been sitting on new product releases so as not to stretch our resources further. At the same time - we can't hold off on that forever either. We have not been advertising nor promoting much of the line at all for over a year now.

We are confident we will be back to our regular performance shortly. We meet weekly with staff to review production status and backlog burn-down rate - and there is light at the end of what has been a longer tunnel than we would have liked.

Cheers -

Rob

[Adam Fort]

Rob, thank you so much for your reply. I wish you the best in getting things in order and thank you also for making such great tools.

[Simon MacGowen]

Hi Adam -

Please accept my apologies for the delay on the 1" chisel. Over the past several months we have been facing a number of challenges in our manufacturing operation.

First and foremost - we had the previously mentioned sudden requirement to switch woods, which caused a backlog in a large portion of the product line. We have now solved that problem, but as we were accumulating the backlog, our operation hit full capacity (and remains there) making it difficult to get out of the hole. Not only do we have physical space limitations, but have now maxed out the power supply to the building. To really add to the fun - for the past year or more we have not been able to fill all available open positions (this is a government town , not a manufacturing one....).

We have been working with a consulting firm to increase our productivity given current constraints - working smarter, and not necessarily harder (though we are doing that too). One of the ways we are doing this is by spending more time running product, and less time doing machine set-ups (a complex machine set-up, and we have a lot of them, can take up to two days). This means intervals between production runs gets longer, though quantities are higher when we do run them. Running something like chisels means a larger run of each size....and ultimately a longer time to get any single size back on track. Larger lot sizes also make for much more work in process, as we have to wait for all component parts to be finished before an assembly run.

PM-V11 is a custom steel, and not a stock item. We have to order many months in advance of our requirement (I believe about 6) and even then, are subject to getting bumped by a larger customer needing a different product. We have to order a complete mill run of steel, and can only run a couple of formats per run (a thickness of plate, or a cross section of bar or rod).

Throwing new product into the mix - demand patterns can change quickly, and strain resources as well.

So - we have some rapidly changing conditions in a system that can just not respond quickly. Nor, at this time, can we effectively scale for excess capacity. These are all "good" problems to have - in that they are related to growth. They are all "bad" problems with respect to being able to respond quickly.

The situation we have now has had our full attention for several months, and we are in the process of addressing it for the forseeable future. To relieve much of the pressure, we have been sitting on new product releases so as not to stretch our resources further. At the same time - we can't hold off on that forever either. We have not been advertising nor promoting much of the line at all for over a year now.

We are confident we will be back to our regular performance shortly. We meet weekly with staff to review production status and backlog burn-down rate - and there is light at the end of what has been a longer tunnel than we would have liked.

Cheers -

Rob

Have we seen another company (public or private) that is as open and transparent with its internal challenges as Lee Valley?

If there is anything in the air, it is that we have witnessed a vendor that is willing to hear feedback, positive or negative, from its customers, and respond to them in a sincere manner. Covering for a vendor's shortcomings may be done with good intentions, but it hurts the vendor in the long term.

Simon

[Van Huskey]

As others may have mentioned, it's against the law to charge a credit or debit card if the product is not ready to ship.

What "law" would that be...

It isn't federal law nor the law in any state I practice in.

[Jason Lester]

What "law" would that be...

It isn't federal law nor the law in any state I practice in.

I've never heard of that either. There are lots of companies running illegal operations if that were true.

[Charles Guest]

I've never heard of that either. There are lots of companies running illegal operations if that were true.

True about the legal part (thanks for the correction) but it's against Visa and MC regs for a merchant to charge before shipping unless they notify you at the time of the order.

I don't know if LV is doing this, I hope not, but if they are I guess they're using customer credit card orders as short-term line of credit.

I'll leave it to regular customers of theirs to decide if they're cool with it. I haven't bought from them in quite some time and what I bought was not on backorder.

[Hilton Ralphs]

I don't know if LV is doing this, I hope not, but if they are I guess they're using customer credit card orders as short-term line of credit.

I'll leave it to regular customers of theirs to decide if they're cool with it. I haven't bought from them in quite some time and what I bought was not on backorder.

Refer to my previous post. I'll repeat for the lazy readers, LEE VALLEY WILL NOT SELL YOU SOMETHING THEY CAN NOT SHIP ALMOST IMMEDIATELY.

[Charles Guest]

Refer to my previous post. I'll repeat for the lazy readers, LEE VALLEY WILL NOT SELL YOU SOMETHING THEY CAN NOT SHIP ALMOST IMMEDIATELY.

Even if they did, there's nothing wrong with it if you are aware of it and agree to it when you place your order. Some people might be willing to prepay an order in its entirety, even if it take months to fill, if this moves them to the front of the queue. At that long a wait it essentially becomes a custom order and it's not unusual for companies making items on a custom basis to get a deposit, at minimum, or maybe prepayment in full. See your local custom furnituremaker for examples.

If you have to wait four or five months to get a chisel, they ought to offer free engraving. :)

[Brian Holcombe]

Companies often apply a credit hold. They test your card to see if it will have the available credit when you order something that will take a while. This is very common.

[Charles Guest]

LV ought to consider putting some of this verbiage on their website where PM-V11 products are sold. There's nothing to indicate that substantial lead times may apply when you look at the PM-V11 chisels for example. Some people might want to inquire, first, before getting all the way to checkout before finding out an item is backordered and it would be months before the product ships. PM-V11 seems to be a special case, and an ongoing one at that based on Rob Lee's explanation, and it may be that special disclosure is advisable.

[Hilton Ralphs]

Even if they did, there's nothing wrong with it if you are aware of it and agree to it when you place your order. Some people might be willing to prepay an order in its entirety, even if it take months to fill, if this moves them to the front of the queue.

I agree with you on this one. I've noticed even Amazon only hits your card when they're ready to ship. To make sure I don't spend the money I need for Lee Valley on other stuff, I now use a the gift card payment option to "lock up" my money for that impending purchase. I live in a country where the exchange rate fluctuates every day so sometimes it's frustrating to buy something and then when it eventually ships, it's actually more expensive than you initially thought.

[Frederick Skelly]

Have we seen another company (public or private) that is as open and transparent with its internal challenges as Lee Valley?

If there is anything in the air, it is that we have witnessed a vendor that is willing to hear feedback, positive or negative, from its customers, and respond to them in a sincere manner.
Simon

+1. Well said Simon!

[Kevin Adams]

Have we seen another company (public or private) that is as open and transparent with its internal challenges as Lee Valley?

If there is anything in the air, it is that we have witnessed a vendor that is willing to hear feedback, positive or negative, from its customers, and respond to them in a sincere manner.

Simon

Agree. In fact, when I saw this thread originally, I simply waited for Rob to respond in his usual open, genuine way and I don’t need to read any further. These are “good” challenges to have and also ones that if not managed effectively, can cause businesses to “grow themselves” right out of business. Thanks, Rob and all of your hard working team, for all you are doing.

Kevin

[J. Greg Jones]

LV ought to consider putting some of this verbiage on their website where PM-V11 products are sold. There's nothing to indicate that substantial lead times may apply when you look at the PM-V11 chisels for example. Some people might want to inquire, first, before getting all the way to checkout before finding out an item is backordered and it would be months before the product ships. PM-V11 seems to be a special case, and an ongoing one at that based on Rob Lee's explanation, and it may be that special disclosure is advisable.
That's not accurate-the LV website always indicates limited product availability and projected lead times long before the customer gets to checkout. Here is an actual screen capture of the PM-V11 chisel page today, with each item displaying an ! in a yellow box indicating that the item has limited stock or is out of stock with the projected available date. Click on the cart icon to add an item to your shopping cart that is out-of-stock, and the customer is given the projected ship date for the item. One does not have to wait until checkout to see that an item is not in stock.

My understanding of the intent of the OP to post this is to express frustration with the current situation that Lee Valley's projected lead times is not accurate, and that lead time often gets pushed back multiple times/months into the future. Rob has acknowledged that and has discussed how they are working to improve the situation. Suggestions that Lee Valley does not inform the customer before checkout that an item is on backorder and the perhaps charges a customer's credit card on backorders to fund their operation is just not true.

[Charles Guest]

That's not accurate-the LV website always indicates limited product availability and projected lead times long before the customer gets to checkout. Here is an actual screen capture of the PM-V11 chisel page today, with each item displaying an ! in a yellow box indicating that the item has limited stock or is out of stock with the projected available date. Click on the cart icon to add an item to your shopping cart that is out-of-stock, and the customer is given the projected ship date for the item. One does not have to wait until checkout to see that an item is not in stock.

My understanding of the intent of the OP to post this is to express frustration with the current situation that Lee Valley's projected lead times is not accurate, and that lead time often gets pushed back multiple times/months into the future. Rob has acknowledged that and has discussed how they are working to improve the situation. Suggestions that Lee Valley does not inform the customer before checkout that an item is on backorder and the perhaps charges a customer's credit card on backorders to fund their operation is just not true.


Yep, I see that now. I was clicking on a size for which there were a few in stock. The 1" chisel is shown as available on November 26th, though based on the original post I don't think it said November 26 when he ordered back in July. Maybe that needs to be clarified, or already has in later posts in the thread. I haven't read them all. Happy to be corrected.

[Van Huskey]

This thread boils down to two things:

1. the reasons behind the chisel and PM-V11 in general being OOS and restocking dates pushed Rob answered that

2. the take away for Lee Valley is it might be prudent to ensure emails are sent to customers with pending orders each time a date is pushed from the original at the time of order. That will only cure some of the angst since I watch people get irritated by a machine importer that has to push a lot of dates often for long periods of time, people wait for them based on price, people wait on PM-V11 due to the unique properties.


BTW Rob if you are reading this I owe you a PM... sorry about that I lost track while at IWF, will address this soon, but I may need to push the reply date a little... :D

[Rob Lee]

Hi -

A couple of clarifications on points raised after my reply...

Charges - Credit cards are only authorized the day the shipment is to occur, and only for the product shipping. Our system actually submits the charge when the parcel crosses the shipping scale, and the shipping label is generated (and shipping confirmation emailed). There are very few exceptions to this - mostly sets, where partial shipment would make sense (we charge for the set, and back-order individual items).

Dates - Our system layers PO's, and reserves inventory against specific warehouses - from earliest planned receipt date to latest. Orders are always shipped on a first in first out basis. Generally - we try to set the dates to be farther out than actual, to allow for transit times between warehouses, and to customers. If you see a product that is not in stock, and has no expected date - then it has not been ordered, or there is insufficient inventory on order.

Keep in mind too that Veritas exports to dealers in more than 100 countries. Veritas fills it's orders on a FIFO basis too..... so Lee Valley can be in line after export orders. When LV places an order to Veritas, an expected date is generated based on standard lead times. It may take Veritas a week or more to advise LV of lead time exceptions, which means we would be delayed in pushing out our dates (same for every vendor).

There's lots of other things that can happen - and I could write dozens of pages in explanation... but the important things to know is that it is in our (and your) best interest to set and meet expectations - we do our best to telegraph our current understanding of stock situations at all times.

Cheers -

Rob

[Adam Fort]

If you see a product that is not in stock, and has no expected date - then it has not been ordered, or there is insufficient inventory on order.


From the customer's POV, however, that isn't any different than being told a July order will be shipped (perhaps?) in November. On your end, yes, there is a big difference. And you've explained why. But you know what's going on in the supply chain. I'm just a doofus ordering tools on the internet, who did not understand everything going on in the background until this week. So, even though I'm fascinated by how the whole business works, and I could read dozens of pages of explanations and/or listen to you talk about the Lee Valley for hours, I hope you always keep in mind that all a customer is thinking is: "I accept and acknowledge the delays you've alerted me to, am I getting it when you say you're getting it?" I'd rather see this guy in my order history:

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

vs. being told - early Sept., late Sept., Nov.


Anyway, I just wanted to emphasize that. I hope this is taken as constructive criticism, not trying to be a jerk. That new shooting board fence is arriving today, so I haven't soured on the company. I believe you when you say you are trying to fix this. Thank you for communicating to customers here and hearing me out, thank you for Lee Valley. You've helped improve my life. I mean that sincerely. I could make things with other tools but it wouldn't be as easy or fun.

[Charles Guest]

Hi -

A couple of clarifications on points raised after my reply...

Charges - Credit cards are only authorized the day the shipment is to occur, and only for the product shipping. Our system actually submits the charge when the parcel crosses the shipping scale, and the shipping label is generated (and shipping confirmation emailed). There are very few exceptions to this - mostly sets, where partial shipment would make sense (we charge for the set, and back-order individual items).

Dates - Our system layers PO's, and reserves inventory against specific warehouses - from earliest planned receipt date to latest. Orders are always shipped on a first in first out basis. Generally - we try to set the dates to be farther out than actual, to allow for transit times between warehouses, and to customers. If you see a product that is not in stock, and has no expected date - then it has not been ordered, or there is insufficient inventory on order.

Keep in mind too that Veritas exports to dealers in more than 100 countries. Veritas fills it's orders on a FIFO basis too..... so Lee Valley can be in line after export orders. When LV places an order to Veritas, an expected date is generated based on standard lead times. It may take Veritas a week or more to advise LV of lead time exceptions, which means we would be delayed in pushing out our dates (same for every vendor).

There's lots of other things that can happen - and I could write dozens of pages in explanation... but the important things to know is that it is in our (and your) best interest to set and meet expectations - we do our best to telegraph our current understanding of stock situations at all times.

Cheers -

Rob

What happens when demand softens a little bit, but your suppliers' minimum order size for steel doesn't change. Is this already taking place?

[Pete Taran]

Guys,

I think we are crossing the line here. Just because Rob is good enough to answer this inquiry, doesn't mean he has to share his business plan, advertising approach and sales model. Honestly, it is a competitive market. The OP had an issue, the concern was raised and the concern was addressed. What more is there to see, short of arterial blood spurts and roadside carnage?

[Frederick Skelly]

Guys,

I think we are crossing the line here. Just because Rob is good enough to answer this inquiry, doesn't mean he has to share his business plan, advertising approach and sales model. Honestly, it is a competitive market. The OP had an issue, the concern was raised and the concern was addressed. What more is there to see, short of arterial blood spurts and roadside carnage?

+1. I was about to post something similar and you beat me to it.

[steven c newman]

Dead Horse Syndrome?:confused::rolleyes::D

[Chris Parks]

Keep in mind too that Veritas exports to dealers in more than 100 countries. Veritas fills it's orders on a FIFO basis too..... so Lee Valley can be in line after export orders. When LV places an order to Veritas, an expected date is generated based on standard lead times. It may take Veritas a week or more to advise LV of lead time exceptions, which means we would be delayed in pushing out our dates (same for every vendor)

it might be possible to buy from an international source if you are unhappy with the supply situation from LV direct. I became aware that LV were ending the supply of their bevel square some time ago and people were lamenting not being able to buy them when there were still available in Australia and the exchange rate was hugely favourable for US buyers.