What's the difference between a Powermatic 27 and a Grizzly G1026 shaper?

[Tim Einwalter]

The PM is $600, 5hp and 3phase pretty new and clean. I don't have 3 phase power so I'd have to invest some additional money in a phase converter. The Griz is $390, 3hp and single phase. It's an older model and will clean up without much trouble. He sold the spindles when he sold the cutters so I'd have to replace the spindle. Not a big deal, each spindle, washer and nuts has been priced at less than $25. The Griz is 4 hours further away than the PM. There are no other local options for my budget.

I don't have a need for 5hp as I won't be pushing that much material through the machine. After all, this is only a hobbyist shop. What I could do is swap the 5hp motor for the 3hp in my table saw and then put a 3hp VFD on the shaper for $280. (I already have a 5hp vfd on the TS).

At $900, this is more than I really wanted to invest in a shaper so I was wondering what advantages the PM might have over the Griz. I have a hunch that they're both the same machine, made by the same Taiwanese mfr.

[Van Huskey]

I have a hunch that they're both the same machine, made by the same Taiwanese mfr.

Have you verified the PM27 was made in Taiwan? I thought all of them were made in the US, but I suppose the later ones could have seen production shift to Taiwan.

BTW you likely want the 5hp, just don't know it yet.

Had 3, knew I needed 5, got 5 wished I had 7.5, got 7.5 and now wishing for 9... and I am a hobbyist also.


Edit: I should have added if you are feeling like you are overspending at $900, you might want to reconsider a shaper. The shaper itself is usually the cheapest part of the equation. Price out your feeder and take a look at tooling before you commit to either machine.

[Tim Einwalter]

The motor tag clearly says "Made in Taiwan"; it's also shaped a bit weird and doesn't have a frame class listed on it. I'm pretty sure this is in the Jet/Grizzly/Powermatic/Baileigh... family of rebadged Taiwanese tools.

[Van Huskey]

The motor tag clearly says "Made in Taiwan"; it's also shaped a bit weird and doesn't have a frame class listed on it. I'm pretty sure this is in the Jet/Grizzly/Powermatic/Baileigh... family of rebadged Taiwanese tools.


I can't comment about a Asian PM27 as I have never seen one. I have seen dozens and dozens of American made ones and owned a couple but never seen one built in Asia. As I said it would have been late in their run.

What color is the saw, is it green, gold or mustard? Unless it is mustard it is definitely US built since I know for a fact some of the mustard PM27s were US made.

Edit to add picture. This is the tag on a Mustard and Black PM27 built in 2007 so any of the gold ones would be US made.

393164

[brent stanley]

The PM is $600, 5hp and 3phase pretty new and clean. I don't have 3 phase power so I'd have to invest some additional money in a phase converter. The Griz is $390, 3hp and single phase. It's an older model and will clean up without much trouble. He sold the spindles when he sold the cutters so I'd have to replace the spindle. Not a big deal, each spindle, washer and nuts has been priced at less than $25. The Griz is 4 hours further away than the PM. There are no other local options for my budget.

I don't have a need for 5hp as I won't be pushing that much material through the machine. After all, this is only a hobbyist shop. What I could do is swap the 5hp motor for the 3hp in my table saw and then put a 3hp VFD on the shaper for $280. (I already have a 5hp vfd on the TS).

At $900, this is more than I really wanted to invest in a shaper so I was wondering what advantages the PM might have over the Griz. I have a hunch that they're both the same machine, made by the same Taiwanese mfr.

In my opinion, being three phase is a bonus as you can easily add a VFD to it (check voltage) and get infinite speed control, reverse and motor braking. Won't cost you too much. If you're a non-industrial user, there are tooling options that are not so terribly expensive.

B

[Jared Sankovich]

The 1026 is a clone of the delta hd shaper. The pm is slightly heavier. Of the two, get the Pm.

[David Kumm]

If the Taiwan PM uses the same design as the old PM 27, it will be a heavier build with a larger table, stouter quill, and worth the extra money. Dave

[Tim Einwalter]

Do you know the model number of the Delta?

[Van Huskey]

Do you know the model number of the Delta?

The HD Shaper was made under several model numbers (like many Delta machines) but the most often seen version is the 43-205.

Did you verify the color of the PM 27, because if it is gold it is 100% that it is US built.

[Tim Einwalter]

I know about the Delta's have several part numbers for seemingly identical machines. I guess the difference has to do with the motor. Some shipped without motors that were dealer installed.

The machine is a dark yellow with a black stripe. It does have a USA flag on it. But then again, so did the Ramco bandsaw that I owned for two weeks.

[Van Huskey]

I know about the Delta's have several part numbers for seemingly identical machines. I guess the difference has to do with the motor. Some shipped without motors that were dealer installed.

The machine is a dark yellow with a black stripe. It does have a USA flag on it. But then again, so did the Ramco bandsaw that I owned for two weeks.

That is a mustard machine if it has black stripes, thus a late model. Powermatic was always good about the Made in US compliance. In fact Made in the US or anything that can be construed as that is one of the highest standards in the world, higher than the Swiss, Germans, Japanese, Italians, Austrians. Once when Powermatics foundry was down they imported a bunch of castings and changed to an Assembled, tested and inspected in the US from foreign and domestic parts model plate.

In the end the 27 is a better machine than the Delta HD or the Grizzly 1026, the main thing you have to watch out for is the 27s were often beat to death in small cabinet shops but you said this one is in good shape and it has to be a relatively new one based on the color. If the PM machine plate says made in the US you can bet it didn't come out of the same factory as the Grizzly.

[David Kumm]

Delta marketed the machine as HD but it really wasn't. Certain PM machines made during the " Houdaille" period have issues but this should be after that time. the owwm guys will have info on both shapers. Dave

[greg bulman]

I have the grizzly. Piece is shit. Had trouble from day one.

[johnny means]

You'd be surprised how underpowered 3 hp is a shaper.

[Mike Cutler]

Given a choice it would be the model 27.
You're not saying of anything is coming with the 27, so I don't know what you're getting with the machine. The Griz' without spindles means you're going to have to buy spindles before you can even use it.
The Powermatic shipped with 1" and 1-1/4". The Grizzly shipped with a 1/2" and a 3/4". I don;t know if a 1" spindle is available for the Grizzly. I'm assuming that a 5HP, 3phase motor should be powering the 1-1/4" spindle.
A 1" spindle is an odd duck these days. Not many manufactures are making cutters that fit it. Usually you will be buying a 1-1/4" cutter and using T-bushings to make it fit a 1". You will also need to invest in spindle adapters and longer T-bushings to accommodate cutter spacing. I know this because I have a Delta 43-375 shaper with a 1" spindle cartridge.
There are lots of 3/4" shaper cutters but they will generally be 2-5/8" to 2-7/8" diameter in cabinet sets. This can get a little frustrating matching cutter sets with back cutters and glass cutters. You're somewhat limited with depths of cuts, unless you have the cutter sets made. The 1-1/4" inch sets will have many more options available stock. Peruse the Freeborn, or Infinity website and you'll see what I mean.
Accessories. There are lots of accessory sets, shims, bearings rub collars, etc stock for 1/2" spindles and 1-1/4" spindles. For the 3/4" and 1" you'll be buyinh=g them singly.
All said, I'd rather have a 1-1/4" spindle, and use my routers for anything smaller. My 1" spindle is a compromise, but it works.

[Jim Andrew]

I have the Grizzly 1026, and a 1hp power feeder, and find it fine for making cabinet doors. I always use the feeder in the slowest speed. And make 2 cuts on the raised panels. Huge improvement over a router table.

[Tim Einwalter]

I have the Grizzly 1026, and a 1hp power feeder, and find it fine for making cabinet doors. I always use the feeder in the slowest speed. And make 2 cuts on the raised panels. Huge improvement over a router table.

That sounds adequate for my needs.

[Martin Wasner]

It was made in 2007, and is not American made. I don't think powermatic built anything in the USA since about 2004

For a hobbyist, that powermatic will be adequate, I wouldn't get a shaper with less than 5hp unless it was a very specific light duty task. 5hp is about the bare minimum in my opinion.

[Tim Einwalter]

Can we talk about machine set up for a moment? I've noticed there are a fair number of Delta/Rockwell shapers that seem to be somewhat comparable. Then I got speaking with somebody and they said that the Delta fences are a finicky pia to set up. Well, I've never used a shaper before so I wouldn't know what is easy or hard to use. Are any of these fences something to avoid? Does the PM have a superior fence that I can use to justify the higher cost?

[Cary Falk]

I'm not a shaper expert by any stretch of the imagination but I say that a shaper lives or dies by the fence. I got reid of my Grizzly 1026 mainly because of the fence. Unfortunatly you have to shell out some $$$$ before shapers start to get better fences. Nobody makes a aftermarket fence for a reasonable cost. With all that being said, some people get along fine with just a board as a fence.

[Tim Einwalter]

I'm not a shaper expert by any stretch of the imagination but I say that a shaper lives or dies by the fence. I got reid of my Grizzly 1026 mainly because of the fence. Unfortunatly you have to shell out some $$$$ before shapers start to get better fences. Nobody makes a aftermarket fence for a reasonable cost. With all that being said, some people get along fine with just a board as a fence.

What was it that you didn't like about the Grizzly fence? What did you end up with and is the fence any better?

[Cary Falk]

What was it that you didn't like about the Grizzly fence? What did you end up with and is the fence any better?

I got a Laguna pro shaper. I am much happier with the fence. Most of it is adjustability and ease of use. The Grizzly fence is bare bones. It gets the job done but takes a little longer to get there. To get the full range of motion from the spindle to the back of the table you have to remove the fence from the table via 2 bolt and move it back to another set of holes. This is done through the top of the fence and while not difficult it is a PITA. The Laguna moves back forth via a rack an pinion. The fence is adjustable for coplanar via some set screws. The grizzly can be made coplanar but you will have to shim or add some set screws . The Laguna is taller extruded aluminum with slots for feather boards and jigs. You could make something similar for the Grizzly. If I want to move the fence faces closer to the bit I need a screwdriver to move the grizzly. A turn of a knob to loosen the Laguna faces. I like the guard on the Laguna better also. There are some other perks of the Laguna that are not fence related so I will not mention them. Here are some pictures of the fences side by side.
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[Jared Sankovich]

The delta fence sucks.. and by default so does the grizzly. The 5hp grizzly fence is an abomination.

Back /outboard fence and a feeder makes it functional

[David Kumm]

I've never read anything very positive on any fence unless the shaper is over 5K and closer to 10k in price unless an old used Euro or Invicta machine. Dave

[Jeff Duncan]

That Powermatic is NOT a clone, or re-badged, or even kinda sorta similar to the Grizzly, so you'd be well served to get that out of your though process first. Those Powermatics were made in Taiwan and were very well built for what they were. Much better quality in my opinion than the Delta... I found the Delta HD to be really.... well, the opposite of HD! Had it for less than a year before I bought a new 27. Actually all three Taiwan built Powermatic machines I've owned were really well built for their class.

As has been mentioned these are good machines for hobby use. The 5hp is good for the capacity of the spindle. The bearings in these small machines are pushed to their max, (at least with guys like me), when equipped with that large a motor. I toasted the spindle bearings within 8 months! That's when I moved it along for a bigger machine. The good news is the bearings on those spindles are easy to replace. The bad news is like most of these sized machines the fences really suck. There's just no other way to put it. The more you can do with shop made fences the better your life will be.

Anyway I'm not a huge fan of Grizzly stuff and it has nothing to do with where they're made. I still have several off-brand Asian built machines in my shop that work quite well. I'd always recommend the better quality machine though....which in this case is the Powermatic.

good luck,
JeffD

[rudy de haas]

Fascinating discussion. I have the 3HP Delta/Grizzly and find it overkill for most of what I do. The fence sucks and the cost of cutters is outrageous but, for what I do, the results justify the time I have to spend getting set up right. So, my 2 cents?

1 - think carefully about what you're going to use the machine for. 5HP is 2HP better than 3HP - and that matters, but does it matter for what you want to do? And, I use my 3/4" spindle almost all the time. The 1/2" is too light, the 1" and 1 1/4" spindles way overkill for the loads I put on them. So the PM is better at spinning the bigger cutters, but does it matter for what you do?

2 - I got a power feeder with mine (bought it much used) and didn't think highly of it. That was wrong wrong wrong - the power feeder is The Essential accessory for doing good work. Maybe think about how getting the cheaper machine would let you put more dollars toward a power feeder?

[Tim Einwalter]

To that very effect, I simply feel the 5hp is overkill. It wouldn't be a problem if the machine was really cheap or if it came with a 1ph motor. The fact that I need to buy a $370 vfd to power a $600 shaper is bothering me. A lot. I have eliminated the Grizzly due to the poor fence reviews. There are currently two Powermatic machines available locally: The 27 I originally posted on and a 24. I have hunch the 24 is a bit too rare (hard to find parts) and the table might be a bit too small for what I want to do. I think I really want a 26 with a 3hp motor and a 3/4" spindle.

[Mike Kees]

Tim I am in a little different situation than you. I am a full time carpenter that is setting up a cabinet shop. I have a three horsepower shaper with 3/4'' and one inch spindles. Like Rudy mine gets used with the 3/4'' spindle,mostly because one inch spindles are useless,almost all tooling is made for the 1 1/4'' spindles and slightly less for the 3/4''. I am going to buy a 7.5 h.p. three phase with 1 1/4'' spindle and then build my cutter inventory with 1 1/4'' tooling. All of my 3/4'' tooling was purchased cheap,literally have about $500 total into roughly $1500 worth of cutters. My advice is buy 1 1/4'' tooling so when you end up upgrading the shaper the tooling is good to go. You will quickly learn that the cutters are the expensive part of the shaper equation. Good luck,Mike.

[Martin Wasner]

I am going to buy a 7.5 h.p.

Buy more shaper

Buy more shaper

Buy more shaper.


Not buying enough shaper was a humbling lesson for me to learn. Everything goes better and faster (or at least less of a battle) with better equipment. If you're in business you can justify it. If you can't afford it, you need to be patient. Either waiting for a really good deal, or patiently saving capital. Right now the good stuff is going high used, and the screaming deals aren't as frequent.