New (to me) Negative Scraper

[Pete Staehling]

I am fairly new to turning and have been finding that I really like using skew chisels a lot, so a negative rake scraper seemed like a good tool to buy. I picked up a used Benjamin's Best at an auction of a deceased turner's stuff and I really love it. At $5 I figure it was a great deal.

Is there any jig that makes it easier to sharpen or is it best to just free hand it? I do my gouges on my Grizzly Tormek clone with a home made jig, but that jig isn't suited to the scraper.

[John K Jordan]

Pete,

I sharpen all of mine the same way, either small round scrapers, flat and straight edge, or large curves. I set a flat tool rest on a grinder to the desired angle and sharpen freehand exactly like I do a skew - sliding or rotating as needed to follow the profile with the shaft pressed tightly into the rest.

I sharpen my spindle gouges on the Tormek (1200 grit CBN) but I sharpen the skews and scrapers on a 600 grit CBN on a 1/2 speed grinder. The skews are honed afterwards but the scrapers are used off the grinder at first. When the burr wears away I hone off any remaining burr then raise a new burr with either a carbide burnishing rod or a fine diamond hone (the blue one below) if I want an extra wispy shaving.

392900 392901

These are some of what I use for smaller things like end grain boxes and for detail on face turnings, ground from Thompson steel, one ground from a detail gouge.

392902

I use these on bowls, platters and such, ground from Thompson scrapers and a skew chisel. I usually keep them sharpened and with burrs for both left and right hand use.

392903

JKJ


I am fairly new to turning and have been finding that I really like using skew chisels a lot, so a negative rake scraper seemed like a good tool to buy. I picked up a used Benjamin's Best at an auction of a deceased turner's stuff and I really love it. At $5 I figure it was a great deal.

Is there any jig that makes it easier to sharpen or is it best to just free hand it? I do my gouges on my Grizzly Tormek clone with a home made jig, but that jig isn't suited to the scraper.

[Pete Staehling]

That makes sense. Thanks.

[Alex Zeller]

I have the Tormek flat tool rest. If you don't have one I would suggest getting it. I think it's the SVD-110. I think either that or the one that comes with the grizzly that you can clamp a flat tool should work. The Tormek rest clamps very well to the support rod.

[Pete Staehling]

I took the two bars off the rest for the scissors sharpener in the Grizzly kit and found it makes a reasonable substitute for the SVD-110. I can do pretty well with it, much better than the previous owner of the chisel did with whatever he used judging by the condition it was in when I got it. I find it now works well and is quick and easy to touch up.

I am sure it will work great for my skews as well.

Thanks for the suggestions.

[Richard Casey]

JKJ, how do you keep an even curve on the scrapers during sharpening? Is it just more practice, as I seem to get multiple facets.
Richard.

[Pete Staehling]

JKJ, how do you keep an even curve on the scrapers during sharpening? Is it just more practice, as I seem to get multiple facets.
Richard.
Just me, and I am a beginner at this trying to follow Richard's advice, but maybe the beginner perspective can be useful. I am finding that with a nice flat rest at the right angle I can concentrate on following the curve and get one nice continuous face. For me it seems to help to concentrate on finger tips holding the tool on the rest and not using the handle.

[John K Jordan]

JKJ, how do you keep an even curve on the scrapers during sharpening? Is it just more practice, as I seem to get multiple facets.
Richard.

Like Pete, I usually hold the tool and not the handle. Actually, it's easy in my case since most of my tools can be removed from the handle. And what I call "finishing" scrapers (not used for hollowing boxes, etc.) never get put into handles - there is no force and no need. That said, if sharping a skew or scraper with a permanent handle I simply press harder with the upper thumb to hold it tightly against the rest.

I press the tool into the flat rest with one finger or thumb near the top and with the thumb of the other hand near the bottom. The top point is more-or-less the pivot and the bottom hand rotates the tool. This is the same way I sharpen skews too, the straight edge one by sliding across the wheel and the curved ones by pivoting. The pivot point does have to change during the sharpening on most curved-edge tools, unless it's a symmetrical round-nosed scraper.

One thing that helps is a smooth/slick tool rest! The stock Wolverine rest surface is too rough for sliding evenly, tending to leave a less smooth bevel and edge. You can take some fine sandpaper to it, wax it (and maybe the tool), add a thin sheet of nylon or something, or use a different rest. One of my Tormek rests has a slick surface so I often use it. I added a base to use the Tormek support bar with my 600 grit CBN wheel (here on the old radiused-edge wheel I don't use anymore!)

392947

Another thing I don't like about the standard Wolverine rest is it's too big! Instead, I use the "mini" rest which apparently a lot of people have never heard about! This is great, especially for smaller tools and handled tools that have been sharpened till they are too short to fit on the standard rest. The bottom edge is radiused as well making it easier to hold and pivot the tool with the lower hand.

https://www.hartvilletool.com/product/3655/oneway-wolverine
392946

All that said, I don't worry if a bevel doesn't look perfect as long as the edge is perfect. And for skews, I hone anyway so minor imperfections in the bevel close the the edge are removed. The hardest skews for me are those with the oval shafts - straight edge is no problem but a curved-edge oval skew takes me several tries and seldom looks perfect!

JKJ

[Alex Zeller]

I looked at the scissor jig from Grizzly. I liked that the two rails were long but it looked like when I sharpen my bowl scraper it would loose contact with the outer rail as I was trying to sharpen the side. When sharpening it I go from perpendicular to past parallel to the grinding wheel. That's why I went with the flat rest from Tormek. Before that, by hand, it was too hard to get a consistent grind.

[Pete Staehling]

I looked at the scissor jig from Grizzly. I liked that the two rails were long but it looked like when I sharpen my bowl scraper it would loose contact with the outer rail as I was trying to sharpen the side. When sharpening it I go from perpendicular to past parallel to the grinding wheel. That's why I went with the flat rest from Tormek. Before that, by hand, it was too hard to get a consistent grind.
The Tormek looks like a very nice rest so I am sure it is a good purchase.

That said I am happy with the scissor jig. The key is that I removed the round bars and just use the remaining flat plate. That way I get good contact throughout. What remains is functionally somewhat equivalent to the SVD-110. Maybe not as nice, but it serves the purpose, a flat surface that can be adjusted to the correct angle. If I ever want to use the scissor jig for it's original purpose I could bolt the bars back on.

I tried using it to sharpen my negative bowl scraper with the bars on and it was a big fail, but with them removed it works fine.

[Mike Peace]

Just a thought but is sounds like you have your hand too far down the handle and inadvertantly pressing down and lifting up the edge. Also not pressing down on the scraper to keep it flat on the grinder grinder too rest.

[Alex Zeller]

The Tormek looks like a very nice rest so I am sure it is a good purchase.

That said I am happy with the scissor jig. The key is that I removed the round bars and just use the remaining flat plate. That way I get good contact throughout. What remains is functionally somewhat equivalent to the SVD-110. Maybe not as nice, but it serves the purpose, a flat surface that can be adjusted to the correct angle. If I ever want to use the scissor jig for it's original purpose I could bolt the bars back on.

I tried using it to sharpen my negative bowl scraper with the bars on and it was a big fail, but with them removed it works fine.

It's hard to see from pictures that the bars come off easy. That would make it more useful.

[Pete Staehling]

It's hard to see from pictures that the bars come off easy. That would make it more useful.
Yes, they come off (and go back on) very easily. Removing two allen head cap screws per bar is all that it takes to remove the bars. I was debating between ordering the Tormek SVD-110 and building something when I realized that the the bars were easily removed and the scissor jig worked fine once they were removed.

[Alex Zeller]

I had thought about trying to make something flat that could mount to the top bars as I like the idea of being able to clamp thinks like scissors but didn't want to mess up it's functionality. In the pictures you can see what looks like threaded holes and screws that held the bars in place but not seeing it in person means taking a chance. What sold me on the Tormek was the fact that I had the Tormek gouge jig and it works great. I have a block of wood with a hole in it that I can side it onto the bar so I can set the distance between it and the grinding wheel and another hole that's drilled to the exact depth for the jig to mount onto the gouge. In seconds I can be touching up my gouge.

[Pete Staehling]

I had thought about trying to make something flat that could mount to the top bars as I like the idea of being able to clamp thinks like scissors but didn't want to mess up it's functionality. In the pictures you can see what looks like threaded holes and screws that held the bars in place but not seeing it in person means taking a chance. What sold me on the Tormek was the fact that I had the Tormek gouge jig and it works great. I have a block of wood with a hole in it that I can side it onto the bar so I can set the distance between it and the grinding wheel and another hole that's drilled to the exact depth for the jig to mount onto the gouge. In seconds I can be touching up my gouge.

If I didn't already own the Grizzly stuff I might have bought the tormek, but I bought the "accessory kit #1" with the grinder and it included the scissor jig.

BTW, I have been experimenting with which side of the grinder to sharpen the various tools on. I have found that I like to sharpen the gouges on the back side (with the face of the wheel going up) and the skews and scrapers on the front. That has the fortunate advantage of allowing me to leave the front set up for skews and the back for gouges. The grinder is on a turntable so I just spin it 180 degrees and lock it down.

With that setup... I find that the gouges don't cause the face of wheel to get wear grooves or go concave so fast if at all. I also find that the skews and scrapers tend to stay flat on the rest more easily. I spend almost no time truing up the wheel and very little time setting up jigs. It winds up being way lower maintenance in my limited experience and I have found no downside.

I have not lived with the completed setup long yet (just finished the turntable), but so far it seems very promising.

[Alex Zeller]

Sounds good. I like my grizzly clone. I've seen where people get the Tormek bar with the micro adjuster to make it parallel to the grinding wheel. You have to relocate one of the holes as the two parallel bars that slide into the mounts are closer together on the Tormek. They are easy to get so I have debated getting one so I could have the stock bar on one side and the upgraded bar on the other. Right now I just use the backside as I like how the gouge comes out and that's what I sharpen the most. I bought a cheap diamond dressing point off of ebay. It's just small enough to be clamped into the standard jig that comes with the Grizzly. It works great for dressing and truing the wheel. Grizzly sells one just like it but I would of had to pay for shipping as I didn't get it when I bought the grinder. The Tormek one looks nice but too rich for my blood. Before that I was just using a hand dresser and not getting great results. Now I rarely have grooves in the wheel.

I have my grinder on a cheap Harbor Freight pit cart. It lives on a side shelf right next to the lathe. I've thought about adding a lazy Susan base to the shelf so I could spin it around easily if I did start using both sides. Seams like a lot of turning is all about finding what works for you (and spending money). I've avoided trying negative rake scrapers (and learning how to sharpen them) because I rarely use a scraper. But as I get more experience I'm sure that will change.

[Pete Staehling]

I've avoided trying negative rake scrapers (and learning how to sharpen them) because I rarely use a scraper. But as I get more experience I'm sure that will change.
Yeah, it sounds like a lot of turners stay away from them. A lot also seem to avoid skews finding them difficult, awkward, or just plain not liking them, but some take to them as a first choice for many tasks. That is me. I tended to use skews a lot right from the start and am taking to negative scrapers quickly as well. Both seem to me to make the work quicker and easier. I am still pretty new to all this, but that is my take on it so far. Different strokes and all that though...

[John K Jordan]

I've avoided trying negative rake scrapers (and learning how to sharpen them) because I rarely use a scraper. But as I get more experience I'm sure that will change.

Once you start using them you might be surprised how quick and easy they are to sharpen (once ground to the desired shape) and how well they work.

The curved ones I showed earlier are amazing if you do face turning, bowls and platter. After turning with the gouge, careful use of the NRS will eliminate much of the sanding. After cleaning up a bit more with hand scrapers I can usually start with 320 or even 400 grit. For an extreme example, this piece started and ended with 600 grit. Granted, it is cedar which is fairly soft, but the NRS and hand scrapers made sanding with only 600 grit possible.

392987

392988

Sometimes I wish I had the time to make videos, then I could show you how quick and painless these are to sharpen and use. Hey, maybe I could drive up to Vermont for a club demo! I've been in your area before by my Lovely Bride keeps suggesting a road trip. :)

JKJ

[Pete Staehling]

If I didn't already own the Grizzly stuff I might have bought the tormek, but I bought the "accessory kit #1" with the grinder and it included the scissor jig.
Just to clarify... When I typed that, I was only referring to the rest and some of the other accessories not the whole grinder. I don't think I'd ever spring for the Tormek over the Grizzly unless the prices changed drastically.

BTW, if anyone is in the market the 10" Grizzly wet grinder (ITEM# T10010ANV) is on sale for $109.95. At $30 off that seems like a pretty good deal to me.

[Alex Zeller]

I have a curved skew but rarely use it because I turn mostly bowls and platters. I'm also back to making buttons. I think my problem was trying to learn to use too many tools at once. The local club was meeting on days I worked so I've only been able to make one meeting so far. I was getting lots of tear out and folded fibers so I took a step back and have been using the gouge for about 95% of my turning. I'm not a master but by focusing on the gouge I figured out what (several whats) I was doing wrong and now I can turn a bowl that needs almost no sanding. I still occasionally lift up my right hand and get the angle wrong on the gouge but I realize when I do it.

So I'm getting ready to regrind one of my scrapers to make a negative rake. One of my problems was not having the grinding wheel true enough to get a good profile on flat tools. Now that I've gotten better at that I'm thinking I need to focus on getting the burr first before adding a negative rake grind to the mix. That could be flawed thinking (wouldn't be the first time). The real problem is I want to do everything all at once, lol. One of the club members showed me quickly how to remove the burr then burnish the scraper to form a much better burr but I didn't get it right and, as I said, I haven't had the chance to get back to another meeting. I think what I did was pushed too hard and made too much of a burr. Being tool steel and never doing it before I probably went overboard. I'm thinking if I can feel what the correct burr feels like with my finger then I can judge much easier. I used a round screwdriver shaft to burnish it vs buying something special so that could have played a role into the failure as well.

From there it's just investing the time into rough grinding one of the scrapers and then finishing it off on the wet grinder. That first grind could take some time but once I have it touching it up should be almost as easy as touching up any other tool. I'll start off with the flat scraper and then once I have that down I'll move to the round scrapers.

[Brian Deakin]

Members may find the content in the links below helpful

http://www.rudolphlopez.com/pdfs/Negative%20Rake%20Scraper%20Jig%20and%20Info.pdf


file:///C:/Users/Lenovo/Downloads/Rudy_Lopez_Handouts_1-18.pdf

http://www.channelislandswoodturners.org/services/stuart-batty-august-2006/

http://www.cindydrozda.com/handouts_Pdfs/handouts/demo%20handouts/negative%20rake%20scrapers.pdf

https://www.santacruzwoodturners.org/learning/articles/negative-rake-scrapers/

and
http://www.woodworkersemporium.com/content/NRS-Instruction-Manual.pdf

[John K Jordan]

file:///C:/Users/Lenovo/Downloads/Rudy_Lopez_Handouts_1-18.pdf


Brian, on testing these links this one didn't work. (Not a URL)

JKJ

[Pete Staehling]

Brian, on testing these links this one didn't work. (Not a URL)

JKJ
I am betting he is talking about the file linked to on this page:
http://brasstownwoodturners.org/newsletters/doc_details/121-201801-rudy-lopez-handouts

[Brian Deakin]

This appears to work on my laptop if you copy and paste



file:///C:/Users/Lenovo/Downloads/Rudy_Lopez_Handouts_1-18.pdf

[John K Jordan]

This appears to work on my laptop if you copy and paste
file:///C:/Users/Lenovo/Downloads/Rudy_Lopez_Handouts_1-18.pdf

Brian,

This that appears to point to a PDF file on your local C: drive, one you may have downloaded sometime in the past.

JKJ

[Ralph Lindberg]

Eric Loftstrom and Jimmie Allen just released a video that includes how they sharpen NRS
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YsatMuK1Ei8

[Ralph Lindberg]

Brian, on testing these links this one didn't work. (Not a URL)

JKJ

Nope, that's a link to the file on his home PC