Value of 12" Oliver 166BD

[Phillip Mitchell]

Considering upgrading my DJ20 with this 12" Oliver from a local pro wood shop.

Serial # seems to date it to the 1930s. Does not have the clamshell cutterhead. 3 phase motor. Still not sure on HP or if its original motor.

As far as I'm told, it's been maintained well and performs as it should. Looks great. 3 phase for me would mean a VFD or a motor swap (would rather do VFD if possible.)

What range would you guys value this machine at?

I'm not that experienced with super old arn, but have always heard Oliver jointers being praised. Anything in particular I should know about this model / era? What size motor(s) were OEM from this vintage? Any potential issues with hooking up a VFD? The jointer is currently under 3 phase power.

Also: does anyone know how much it weighs and have a link to overall dimensions? Having a hard time finding that info on the web.

Thanks!

[Van Huskey]

I won't begin to guess on price since the condition is so much of that but here is the pdf of the sales cut sheet which gives weights and dimensions for the 166 varieties.

http://vintagemachinery.org/pubs/609/968.pdf

[Don Jarvie]

Sign up at OWWM and do a search. Tons of info on Oliver machines.

If it’s a direct drive model you will need a VFD. If not you could consider a motor swap. You may need new pulleys to match up. That’s not a big deal.

[Andrew Hughes]

I paid 2500 for my 166bd that was built in 1960.
No broken or missing parts. There was one bent t-handle on the fence that I straightened.
Good luck

[David Kumm]

The earlier 166 had 88" tables, the later ones 96". Motor is direct drive so no switch out is possible or desirable. I have one in storage from 1955 and would not sell for less than 2500-3000. Condition is key and you want to check the tables. A 12" is likely to not exhibit wear across the width like a larger jointer but check that. The wedges that adjust the table should all be free to move and not broken or frozen. Bearings should be oil cup and still have oil. Running bearings for even a few seconds dry will ruin them but if lubricated can last longer than you. I don't like the swing away guard but it does allow you to joint up to a 24" board with removing it. I'm guessing in the 1000-2500 range. The post WW2 models are slightly more valuable if condition is equal. If it was a Model 12 it would be worth more although they are rare and usually wider. Dave

[Phillip Mitchell]

Thanks for the info, fellas. The price is at the low end of what you’re suggesting, Dave.

Van, thanks for that spec sheet. Helps a ton.

The serial number is 49953, which seems to be from the ‘30s, if my interpolation from the Vintage Machinery Archives is correct.

I should have more info on the motor and bed length today.

Excuse the newbie question, but what size VFD would I need to start and run this if it’s a 5 hp motor? Anybody have any good experiences with particular brands / models / vendors?

Dave, where are the oil cup bearings and can you check the oil level visually/externally or what would I need to get into in order to check the status of them upon inspection?

I’m told that the jointer runs flawlessly and is still in service, but that they want a machine with a helical head and a brake on the cutterhead (for potential students/ classes / liability.)

[Phillip Mitchell]

This is a photo of motor plate. Seller says it’s direct drive. Is this original?

392904

[Andrew Hughes]

Yes the plate looks 88 years old to me.

[Darcy Warner]

Kind of an odd one being 5hp for a 12" oliver back then. 3hp was standard, 5hp was an option.

[David Kumm]

About Oct 1940. If the cups are still there, they will have oil in them. If still running it either has oil or has been converted to grease. Unlike porter, Oliver did not use precision bearings unless spec'd so no big deal if new are needed. Sounds like a good deal. 12" are a little less desired than a 16" but still a good price. Dave

[Gary Radice]

If you call Eagle Machinery and tell them the serial number they can give you all the info you need about that machine.

[Andrew Hughes]

Phillip did you buy it yet.
Don’t wait too long you might miss your opportunity to own one of the finest jointers ever made.

[Phillip Mitchell]

Still working on in Andrew, the hardest part seems to be convincing my wife that I need to replace my perfectly fine DJ20 with a 80 year old, 2000# machine. We'll see how it plays out...

Anybody have any thoughts about what size VFD I'd need to run this? I'm inexperienced with them...what's more important - HP rating or Amps? I guess I'm getting confused because I'm reading about increasing the HP capacity of the VFD 1/3 above actual 3PH motor HP, but then lots of folks saying that with a jointer, the load isn't necessarily high enough to make a difference. Big price difference between a 7.5 hp and 5 hp VFD....

[Darcy Warner]

Go by amps.

[Andrew Hughes]

I just looked in my manuals help section. There’s no suggestions how to sneak a 166 past a wife.
I guess the right thing to do is her blessing.
Hope it works out for you Good Luck.

[Geoff Crimmins]

Anybody have any thoughts about what size VFD I'd need to run this? I'm inexperienced with them...what's more important - HP rating or Amps? I guess I'm getting confused because I'm reading about increasing the HP capacity of the VFD 1/3 above actual 3PH motor HP, but then lots of folks saying that with a jointer, the load isn't necessarily high enough to make a difference. Big price difference between a 7.5 hp and 5 hp VFD....

If it's a VFD with single-phase input, then a 5hp VFD should work fine. If it's designed for 3-phase input then it has to be derated. Jack Forsberg in Canada seems to be a good place to buy a VFD of this size, and he could help you be sure you're getting what you need.

[Matt Day]

I just enabled a friend to buy an American Sawmill 12" jointer I found on CL, but his friend's wife was all for it, especially at $550.

Your Oliver is a cool old jointer, worthy for sure. Some folk prefer a 3 toe design since the floor doesn't have to be as level - heavy cast iron jointers can twist on an uneven floor. So make sure you've got a good flat spot for it.

Jack Forsberg (on here) can hook you up with a VFD, but if you edjumacate yourself you can find one that will work online.

[David Kumm]

The twist on a 12" Oliver isn't nearly the issue as on the 20-36" ones. Get the bases close to level and once adjusted you will be fine. You can drop anything you can lift on those jointers and not move the tables. Dave

[Phillip Mitchell]

Thanks for the suggestion. I talked with Jack today on the phone and got some good info and will buy a VFD from him once I have the machine. His price seems very reasonable and the "tech support" will be worth what I pay for it in this case, I think.


This jointer will sit on a basement slab that's not necessarily totally flat, level or super smooth. A bit of a rough finish in places, old house...I'll measure the foot print of the base before I move it in and if I need to build up the floor a little bit with some thinset or something like it, then I think that'll be good enough...hopefully

[Darcy Warner]

Use machine levelers in the four holes in the bases and grout it in place, at least that's how they would do a permanent set up of a machine.

[Brian Holcombe]

Phillip, I can say from experience that it is a whole lot easier to ask forgiveness than permission.

My wife gets nervous anytime I mention that I’ll be receiving a delivery. So I don’t normally mention it :)

[Phillip Mitchell]

Haha! I’m happy to report that the dream lives on and she came around to the old Oliver.

On to the next challenge, moving it!

There will be a forklift available for loading. Any issue with slinging it around the middle (underneath the frame, between each end/feet in a basket hitch or something similar just to get it in and out of the truck?

[Andrew Hughes]

That’s how I moved mine. Once I got it out of the trailer I rolled it in the shop on furniture dollies.
To Lift it off the dollies I use a floor jack and blocks.
Good luck

[Phillip Mitchell]

Picked up the jointer this evening. Loaded and rode like a champ.

Here’s some pics. Paid $1250. This machine was running in their shop until it was replaced by a new 15” powermatic with shelix head and cutterhead brake.

There’s an oil pot on the front of the machine and a grease fitting ? On the back near the motor. Oil pot on the front looks a little low and crusty. What kind of lube is best to use here?

The machine was hard wired to a shut off box and the switch apparently didn’t make it with the machine when they removed it from the building...any advice here? I will be buying a VFD from Jack Forsberg and will ask him as well.

What do you guys think?

393148393149393150393151393152

[David Kumm]

Both bearings were originally oil bath. It looks like the motor bearing has been converted to grease. Mobil DTE Heavy/ Medium is the recommendation. If you can keep the open oil bath bearing system, go for it. A swap to sealed is a downgrade. Remove the cup and pipe and drain the oil from the bearing and replace. The grease bearing probably has been overfilled and a gob is sitting inside the motor. If you aren't going to take apart and look, run the machine and listen with a screwdriver on the bearing housing and feel for heat. Too much oil or grease will heat bearings. The original oil cup was glass and is set to a correct height so filling the cup halfway up the glass also fills the bearing cavity to the correct level- usually about 1/3 of the bearing. Good luck, Dave

[Martin Wasner]

This machine was running in their shop until it was replaced by a new 15” powermatic with shelix head and cutterhead brake.


Oh it hurts. I don't understand some people's logic

[David Kumm]

Oh it hurts. I don't understand some people's logic

If you don't know how to set up a machine, a shelix is more forgiving. Another skill lost. Dave

[Darcy Warner]

Both bearings were originally oil bath. It looks like the motor bearing has been converted to grease. Mobil DTE Heavy/ Medium is the recommendation. If you can keep the open oil bath bearing system, go for it. A swap to sealed is a downgrade. Remove the cup and pipe and drain the oil from the bearing and replace. The grease bearing probably has been overfilled and a gob is sitting inside the motor. If you aren't going to take apart and look, run the machine and listen with a screwdriver on the bearing housing and feel for heat. Too much oil or grease will heat bearings. The original oil cup was glass and is set to a correct height so filling the cup halfway up the glass also fills the bearing cavity to the correct level- usually about 1/3 of the bearing. Good luck, Dave

Never seen a glass on an Oliver jointer. Everyone had a gits oil cup and were filled so you could just see oil in the bottom.

[Andrew Hughes]

Is that a Insert Head I don’t see any gibs? I run my machine on a Rpc so I have a magnetic starter where your wires end.
I think with a vfd you don’t use one.
The condition of that old girl looks to be excellent. I think you did good

[David Kumm]

Darcy, I think you are correct. I'm remembering which is dangerous and I believe the Porter was glass and the Oliver was a brass cup. Dave

[Phillip Mitchell]

OK guys,

Starting to wire up the VFD and I'm stumbling a little bit. I've done some wiring here and there, but wouldn't call myself that experienced.

There are 3 wires coming out of the motor that aren't color coded (that I can tell) and seem to be labeled (by the folks who I bought the machine from when they disconnected it from power) with masking tape "A", "B", and "C". This doesn't mean anything to me, as I didn't get the chance to see how it was wired originally.

There is a junction box I can mount from this location just under the motor and run an extension to the VFD, which has space for 3 wires + a ground for the motor.

How do I know if one of these is a ground or what's what? Pardon the newbie questions...I haven't gone down this road yet and I certainly don't want to fry anything.

[Darcy Warner]

No ground, does not matter what one you hook up to t1, t2 or t3. You will have to add a ground wire

[Martin Wasner]

What Darcy said.

If it runs backwards, change it in the vfd

[Phillip Mitchell]

Thanks Darcy.

Can you elaborate on adding a ground wire. From where to where? Talk to me about wiring like I’m in 3rd grade :D

[Darcy Warner]

Thanks Darcy.

Can you elaborate on adding a ground wire. From where to where? Talk to me about wiring like I’m in 3rd grade :D

Ground coming into vfd, add a ground to the machine in that junction box.

[Martin Wasner]

I'm pretty sure you just ground the machine. If something shorts out, it trips the breaker or something in the vfd. If you don't, you are making the machine into a big piece of wire carrying juice. You don't ever want to be the ground.

Ask an actual commercial electrician. Don't listen to idiots (me included) on the internet. Nobody likes riding the lightning.

[Darcy Warner]

I'm pretty sure you just ground the machine. If something shorts out, it trips the breaker or something in the vfd. If you don't, you are making the machine into a big piece of wire carrying juice. You don't ever want to be the ground.

Ask an actual commercial electrician. Don't listen to idiots (me included) on the internet. Nobody likes riding the lightning.

None of these old machines had grounds.

All he needs is his ground for his incoming power to vfd, ground out from vfd and terminate it on a screw in that j box so its attached to machine. Some vfds have a grounding strap or clip as well.

[David Kumm]

Just make sure the ground to the machine is securely fastened to metal which in turn is connected to the machine itself. Those old cast iron machines ground pretty well. I had a ground wire loosen on one that was on a mobile base with rubber wheels. I became the ground. Interesting result I don't care to repeat.
Dave

[Martin Wasner]

None of these old machines had grounds.

All he needs is his ground for his incoming power to vfd, ground out from vfd and terminate it on a screw in that j box so its attached to machine. Some vfds have a grounding strap or clip as well.

See? Don't listen to people on the internet. lol

[Warren Lake]

had a license guy hook up roto may years ago. No ground. Told me the BX was the ground who was I to argue with him. Years after I looked up on the net and that was hogwash. Even if it worked it was not correct so got a 100 amp encased wire and fed it in through the bx. Moral of the story cant trust anyone. I wont even eat Jello anymore.

[David Kumm]

I believe Darcy's post is being misinterpreted. The old machines did not have a terminal labeled as a ground. The ground wire from the panel or directly to a grounding rod was secured either directly to the cast iron machine or to a metal box attached directly to the machine- metal on metal. As Warren stated above, you should have a separate ground wire either from the panel or to a separate ground rod to the vfd. The ground to the machine is attached to the ground from the panel at the vfd. Using metal conduit or flex can act as a secondary ground but not the primary. Dave

[Phillip Mitchell]

Ok, so what I’m hearing is that I need to take the ground wire from the single phase panel/input and connect it to VFD, continue the ground wire from that point to the screw in the metal junction box which is physically connected to the cast iron frame of the machine and I’ll be good?

There is 1 terminal on the VFD (far right in photo) labeled ground. I’m assuming that’s where my incoming ground from panel and extension to machine need to be located?

Pics attached.

Also, upon further inspection, this is an aftermarket cutter head made for insert knives. Do the same oil bath / grease requirements apply to this cutterhead or does that bypass it at this point?

Thanks again for the dumbed down advice.

[David Kumm]

Terminus makes a good head. Similar to a Tersa except it doesn't exit the side of the head. It will still run at 3450 so the oil or grease requirements are the same. Do you have a way to cut power to the vfd? I put either a disconnect of a 40 amp switch to the vfd so it isn't energized all the time. You can do that with a breaker but not as convenient. Dave

[Warren Lake]

just a note to check your ground wire on any old machines. On my terminal block on the outside looked like all was well. Inside looking at some other stuff I noticed someone snapped the ground wire where it attached to the base of the machine. I redrilled it for screws i have here and put another crimp connector on the end.

[Darcy Warner]

I would run that machine at 70 or 75hz, with that head. Be amazed what another 500 to 900 rpm will do

[Matt Mattingley]

I would run that machine at 70 or 75hz, with that head. Be amazed what another 500 to 900 rpm will do
Philip, Darcy is pretty much dead on with this. Your head is 4.92”dia. It says right on the head maximum speed 6000 RPM. But The point of concern of over speeding this motor is whether or not the bearings in the motor are rated for this speed and the bearings in the head are rated for this speed. I could comfortably suggest 66-70hz which would be about 400 to 600 RPM more.

As for the electrical ground it is best to add a 4 to 6 inch ground wire to the ground terminal in the VFD. Attach this wire to the ground of your household single phase. Attaching another ground wire and run it through the conduit to the motor and attach to a screw in the motor pecker head. Wire nut at the VFD like a pigtail. This picks up a potential dead short at the earliest applicable point. Every transition box should have a jumper ground as well. There’s nothing wrong with having one too many grounds then one too little.

[David Kumm]

I've not had my bearings out but I believe they may be 6308 and 6313. Oliver used standard bearings - usually - so it is the 6313 that would be at issue if running grease. If I were running it fast I'd test it for 15 minutes at 66 hz and feel the bearings for heat. I've never had trouble running old motors on a vfd but when running over 60 hz you are starving them of voltage so they tend to warm up and the speed limit on a 6313 open greaed bearing is in the 4800 rpm range. If I were running it at 65-70 hz I'd want phenolic cage precision bearings but I'm fussy about bearings. Dave

[Matt Mattingley]

This is why I put a standard together for my shop.
All
Motor bearings are getting LGLT-2 (expensive and not always needed)
Bronze bushings are all getting AW 32
Gears are getting Lucas X-TRA #2 and or Quaker State golden chassis grease
Ways are getting way lube
Dusty gears are getting graphite spray and sometimes if serviceable fluid film
Almost anything else which is bare metal gets a fluid film
Bare serviceable metal- like table tops that should be dry johnson’s paste wax
Wet tops I use Castrol super edge 4
And last I use cimtap 2
I keep a can of silicone spray for belts and pulleys that are hard to get at. The ones that I can easily get to I just clean with 25-75 Dove dish detergent.
And a lot of Varsol


This is what I’m trying to slim down to. I’m still struggling. I have two machines using SAE 10 W non detergent.

Edit; I keep 3-in-one and WD 40 for convenience lubrications and I do love using my pail of white lithium for outdoor machines. And two different chain lubes wet and sticky for my chainsaws.

[Darcy Warner]

I will have to dig out one of my 166 manuals and see what oliver put in for bearings. Original DD set up machines ran oil bath, but someone probably put regular old bearings in that when they swapped the head.

Its direct drive Matt, only two bearings on this machine.

[Matt Mattingley]

I will have to dig out one of my 166 manuals and see what oliver put in for bearings. Original DD set up machines ran oil bath, but someone probably put regular old bearings in that when they swapped the head.

Its direct drive Matt, only two bearings on this machine.
Can you please explain how there’s only two bearings? There would be two bearings for a motor and two more bearings for the head? Am I mistaken??? Wouldn’t there be 4 bearings in conjunction or not? A direct drive electric motor in my opinion has two bearings. A head would also have two bearings. Am I missing something?

Even if this was a shaft drive, it would require two bearings at the The machine and two more bearings at the shaft drive. The shaft drive can be built as one, but I’m wondering how you would Machine this? I’ve done this and I won’t do it again. How would you machine and align the shaft drive in your expert opinion?
I’m just a machinist. So take everything of what I say as grain of salt.

[Warren Lake]

id take the just out before machinist its amazing what you guys can do. last tool and die maker I went to I wanted a .020 sleeve to go on a half inch router bit, he said do you want slip fit, interference fit or press fit? I almost started laughing but said you can do that? Okay press fit. simple machines he bought new and cared for all his life, properly trained in Europe. Blew me away showing me some of the custom jobs he had done.

Plus one on the Fluid Film, 9 crappy winters on my 26 year old car and not sure what winters before that with no protection coat it well every year. Didnt mess up my rubbers either like some other products do.

[Darcy Warner]

Can you please explain how there’s only two bearings? There would be two bearings for a motor and two more bearings for the head? Am I mistaken??? Wouldn’t there be 4 bearings in conjunction or not? A direct drive electric motor in my opinion has two bearings. A head would also have two bearings. Am I missing something?

Even if this was a shaft drive, it would require two bearings at the The machine and two more bearings at the shaft drive. The shaft drive can be built as one, but I’m wondering how you would Machine this? I’ve done this and I won’t do it again. How would you machine and align the shaft drive in your expert opinion?
I’m just a machinist. So take everything of what I say as grain of salt.

Only two bearings in a direct drive jointer (I have seen a few with a small bearing on the end bell side of motor) one on the operating side, one on the off side right before the motor housing. 394261

Not the best picture, but one bearing in the front of picture, one on the far side, stator and endbell not mounted yet.

[David Kumm]

Most of the old DD jointers I've seen had two bearings on either end of the head. The rotor kind of floats off the end with no additional bearing support. My Oliver 299 and 399 planers were similar although the 299 had doubled up bearings on one end. Seems weird but since most are still working the design must have been sound. Dave

[Phillip Mitchell]

Ok, thanks fellas. I think I’m clear on the wiring and grounding. But before I fire it up...

Next round of questions from the newb...

Why is Mobil DTE heavy/medium (or any “circulating oil” for that matter) impossible to find locally?? I called every auto parts store in town and the local machine shop and they all gave me blank stares...through the phone.

Do I just need to break down and spend $35-40 (with shipping) for a gallon from online or is there any suitable, easily available substitute for the cutterhead bearing?

Just as a reminder, the cutter head bearing still has the oil cup (front of machine) and the motor has a grease fitting that screws in. I removed it the other day to take a peak and the grease is gray and packed full at the back of the fitting and beyond (towards bearing) from what I can see. I’m unfamiliar with this, is this a problem? If so, how do I clean it and what type of grease do I need to put back in, how do I know how much to apply, etc? I thought I snapped a photo of the grease fitting to share, but I’m not finding it.

I appreciate all the help and dialogue. Doubt I could fumble my way through these unfamiliar waters for the first time without some wiser sailors showing the way. Hopefully this thread will be of some use to the next uninitiated soul that jumps into the old ‘arn waters of Oliver jointers.

[Darcy Warner]

Dick at Deihl, who started at Yates American after HS, who has forgotten more than most will ever know, told me that since he started in the industry, recommended non detergent straight 20w for almost every oil lube bearing you would find on machines of this era.

[David Kumm]

A local machine shop might nave some to sell, or an industrial lube seller ( although 1 gal container might be a problem. ) Some will fill your container. The motor end bearing sounds iffy but if you run the machine and listen and then feel it after a few minutes you will get an idea if more work is needed. Bearings are often overfilled. If you take the fitting off, and run the machine for a minute, some grease might expel and you can see if it looks good or crusty. If you get a sample, you can take to to someone who can set you up with something compatible. For a short run, you could add a little 3 in 1 oil to make sure the front bearing isn't dry. It will be a little light for extended run but will work for testing. Dave

[Andrew Hughes]

Do you have a graingers nearby? That’s were I bought a gallon from if only you were closer i have no need for it. I changed from open to sealed on my 166.

[Phillip Mitchell]

OK, great info to know fellas. Had a chat last night with Matt, which was very helpful as well.