Shapers - Cross Manufacturer Insert Tooling Compatibility

[Bill Adamsen]

I am considering supplementing some of my 160mm shaper insert tooling (made by Garniga) and just thinking through groover/chisel options. I realized after putting a lot of thought into it, that everything was dependent on getting new tooling (complementary groovers) that exactly matched the cutting radius of my existing tooling. How likely is that to happen? Will I get the same radius with tools from different brands (say Amana, Zuani and Garniga)? If the answer is "not very likely" I would alter my strategy.

[Steve Jenkins]

I’d say it’s not very likely unless you had them custom made. My question is why do they need to have the same radius

[Bill Adamsen]

why do they need to have the same radius?

I think it would be nice if the shoulders on either side of the tenon were the same height.

[brent stanley]

It would be the same if you flipped the piece over and did the other side with same tooling. Cheapest option with guaranteed results.

B

[Bill Adamsen]

Yes flipping the piece over does work. Two discs with a 5mm (or whatever) spacer produces a consistent tongue. Flipping the piece over relies on ultra precise thickness which in my experience is problematic. And I still need the groover. And a 5mm groover isn't going to cut 20mm of shoulder in one pass.

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[brent stanley]

Yes flipping the piece over does work. Two discs with a 5mm (or whatever) spacer produces a consistent tongue. Flipping the piece over relies on ultra precise thickness which in my experience is problematic. And I still need the groover. And a 5mm groover isn't going to cut 20mm of shoulder in one pass.

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Double discs are really convenient and leave fewer places for error for sure. I have a 160mm diameter groover from Whitehill and can put the calipers on it for you to get an exact measurement for you if you like. One of these: http://www.whitehill-tools.com/catalogue.php?cid=2&c2id=34


B

[Warren Lake]

good to see a tennon with a haunch finally instead of the tongue and groove. Tennon should be thicker but maybe just an example. Ive seen planer inconsistencies at about .005 other than Joes stuff I measured at dead nuts bang on. Flipping not ideal if some or too much variation there.

[Bill Adamsen]

More back story. My three disk 160mm insert tooling (Garniga) is designed for 22-28mm doors (mine are typically 1") and has a 5mm groove. I've been thinking about expanding my collection to provide greater flexibility and a more marketable profile. I like the look of Rangate's Shaker stile and rail, most of the doors I do have a simple square cope. That square cope is easy to create pairing the mortise groover with a two disk adjustable tenon groover .. as long as the groove/tenon is big enough. So for instance an 8mm-15mm groover should make both the groove (8mm) and the shoulders (8/6, 7/7) on a 22mm door pretty readily. The 5-9mm groover can only do a 15mm door with a 5mm groove ... plus it has depth of cut (25mm max) which is shorter than the tenons I would typically make. But the 5mm would complement the existing tooling.

Some alternatives ...

1) embrace the 5mm groove (get a 5mm chisel).
a) try to replicate my current "no profile" door with the addition of a 5mm fixed or 5-9.5mm adjustable groover
b) get a larger groover for the shoulders ... a 12-24mm 160mm can fab a 29mm thick door and a 35mm long tenon. Larger disks can do longer tenons (180mm can cut 40mm).
c) using this approach I'd be well positioned to use the Garniga if demand arises for the available profile knives
Summary - a 5mm groover (wouldn't need to be adjustable) and a relatively adjustable groover for the shoulders (the thinner precision adjustable groovers are expensive)

2) get a groover to match the larger tenon I cut.
a) get an adjustable 8mm-15mm. Amana 61360 says it cuts 5/16"
b) get an 8mm chisel or chisel to match that groover
c) the 8-15mm two disk groover should separate and cut shoulders for a 24mm door, or if 160mm and able to be paired with my existing 160mm cutter, a much thicker door
Summary - buy a relatively expensive adjustable 8mm-15mm groover

3) Just bag this approach and buy a new set such as the Rangate Stile and Rail plus Shaker.
Summary - $$$

To those of you using shaper tooling for doors, does this make sense? Is a 5mm tenon large enough? How precise is 160mm tooling? Importantly, will I get the same radius with tools from different brands (say Amana, Zuani and Garniga)?

[Warren Lake]

thumbs up on your door thickness. I make doors the old way so im not one to comment on your tooling stuff. The problem I see with shaper cutters is the profile you want dictates your set back for either a tennon or tongue. A tennon should be centered and cutter sets cant do that unless you have a thicker door. Ive seen as little as 1/8" material on the back side. If your material thickness goes up then more chance of it being centered or closer to that. Its a bit much for me to digest your stuff plus metric throws me a bit. Joe is the guy on your cutters and if some past guys are reading Peter and Tony think all are very experienced with them.

So what are you talking cutter sets for making a mortise and tennon door not a tongue and groove cope and stick but a mortise and tennon where you have to chisel or some way cut a mortise. Is it 1,000.00 US or or

[Joe Calhoon]

Bill
I believe the accuracy of stated diameter of reputable brands of Euro insert tooling will be accurate. I have Garniga, Zuani and some Felder inserts (Stark) and I would say the stated diameter and cutting circle is accurate to within 0.03mm or so on these heads. Close enough for woodworking. I have run most of my tooling on new Martin shapers at shows and with the newer fences accurate to one hundredth mm you can pick up on the small variations of cutters. My older shaper at the shop is accurate to one tenth mm and notice nothing with tool variation on that one. One tenth is close enough for our work.

I combine a Zuani 250 diameter 15 to 30 adj groover I had made for tenoning on shaper with some older Garniga 250 diameter disks to make double tenons. No issues there. The cutter body on various brands may be different and that can cause issues stacking cutters.

Is your Garniga tooling the cabinet door set that does many profiles? I have that set.

[Bill Adamsen]

Thanks Warren and Joe ... That gives me the confidence that I have many more options to choose from. My current head is the USA 11102 and Greg at Rangate has provided support for that ... they can provide additional inserts which makes that more extensible. I’m still questioning whether 5mm is the standard to settle on for the tenon.

[Bill Adamsen]

... The problem I see with shaper cutters is the profile you want dictates your set back for either a tennon or tongue. A tennon should be centered and cutter sets cant do that unless you have a thicker door. Ive seen as little as 1/8" material on the back side. If your material thickness goes up then more chance of it being centered or closer to that. So what are you talking cutter sets for making a mortise and tennon door not a tongue and groove cope and stick but a mortise and tennon where you have to chisel or some way cut a mortise. Is it 1,000.00 US or or

Warren ... good comments and yes, the reason I like the idea of the groover is it sets the location for the mortise cut on chisel mortiser. I would like to match the chisel to the groove (and tenon) hence everything would be 5mm or 8mm. I’m leaning towards the 5mm and as I think about it, that would provide more flexibility in groove location. Scott & Sargeant carries the excellent NH hollow chisel in 5mm ... I’m sure I can get them here in the States as well.

The adjustable insert discs are quite pricey ($400 ... more for smaller sizes) the fixed width less so, typically $100+. For the 5mm groove it wouldn’t need to be very deep ... but I’d want the two disc adjustable groover to cut a much longer tenon ... 35mm or even longer.

[Joe Calhoon]

Agree with Warren about the 1/8” too thin that’s why we go 1”. On kitchens we always used cope and stick reinforced with double dowels. But like true tenon for special projects like furniture or historic work. I have a local friend with a cabinet door making business, he is cope and stick only on everything and would go broke if he did dowels or tenons. It’s the industry standard. Profiled cope and stick is fairly strong but square edge cope prone to cracking especially in VG fir.

I ran the shaker bevel cutters at the show for Randgate. It’s a nice set, I like the profile and slightly eased edge where the panel goes in. It has the middle cutter for trimming the stub tenon but believe that can be removed to do a tenon of 1 ½” or more. You might want to check with Greg, several people were asking if an additional element could be made to do the bevel on the old Garniga cabinet set. They are looking into that. Also, for my Garniga set they offer thicker groovers for the panel groove. I have a 7mm for mine.

Did not get any pictures of the shaker bevel but did a lot using adjustable groovers for square edge doors both coped and tenoned. Agree a double disk is the way to go. If you only have a single disk on the shaper rather than flipping the workpiece it is more accurate to raise the shaft for the second cut keeping the same face down.

Pictures show square edge work using 2 adjustable groovers stacked with a simple sled. Was also able to do the panel rebate using the top adj groover. This is easy with a numeric shaper but also possible on a manual machine with setup aids. Overhead guard is up for pictures.

The last picts are tenoned house door elements with doing the haunching with same cutters before tenoning. Did the same for a cabinet door but no pictures.

In our shop the adj groovers and rebate heads are the most used cutters.
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[Warren Lake]

are you fixed on the dimensions shown? you have an upscale door thickness then the panel thickness is not plus the tennon is under thickness. would you not want to step up your panel to 3/8 which would match the rail and style thickness thought pattern and what it should be at a third or just over? your set back 12 MM you want to have a deep look there I think? thanks on some prices they seem okay. Insert I have so far came from auctions and a few different brands. I think prices and dont know get pricey when you want to have a thicker door with coped profile and tennon.

[Bill Adamsen]

Thanks to both of you for the comments. It has really helped me think about the solutions and prepped me for talking to Greg next week, especially about the panel groove (slot) size. The drawing was just illustrative of some possible dimensions. I usually center the panel groove and tenon, and relieve the back of the panel to fit.

[Warren Lake]

thanks for showing those Joe. I wasnt taught on the cope and stick sets so do what i was taught. The door maker companies I wont use them as a reference quantity is their focus and that method of building doesnt work as soon as you step up your door thickness on an armoire or even tall door, id rather have that door in thicker material. I want one way of building that I can make a door of any thickness I want to suit what it is. Good that you dowelled or did the tennon and haunch. This is a different subject but I see the cope and stick thing as the gizmo inventors european hinges and pocket holes and cope and stick. It didnt exist and stuff was done a 1000 years the proven ways. People wanted to make money and came up with the new fast for us. The irony is the bar lowered for everyone and if it stayed where it was so there would be no difference just everyone at the same pricing which was higher as more time. I get it, my hinge machine can drill three holes and insert a hinge in what 3 seconds.

Its normal for me to be with a friend and end up one of her friends places and look at a kitchen a few years old. I take my swiss army knife and start adjusting doors, wish it has a Posi drive tip. Some doors dont close others the gaps are off, The gaps when I even them up are usually large but once they are constant and the same gap it improves the look. sometimes they are made so badly the door sizes are a bit off. I think they build boxes order doors finish them then the first time they see it is when it is assembled at the customers home. The other day a friend with a year old kitchen doors made by a door maker one of them was badly warped some others sticking out past the stuck on end gable no idea on that other than they messed up. Illl give him credit he used 3/4 melmine instead of 5/8 so that was nice to see.

thanks Bill that those were just some dimensions you picked wasnt sure i was understanding that as final dimensions just want to follow along, always nice to see Joes photos and set ups and thankful he takes the time to do that and shares it all with us.

[Warren Lake]

joe is the slot cut with one side of the cutter for the tennon just lowered down into the table?

[Joe Calhoon]

joe is the slot cut with one side of the cutter for the tennon just lowered down into the table?

Yes, just dropped the cutter to cut the haunch. This was my 15 to 30mm X 250mm adj groover so had to make 2 passes. The tenon heads I have at home are thicker and can do it in one pass. I Just put a 15mm spacer against the backstop to adjust for the 15mm deep panel groove. This side of the groovers do not have the knickers but it dosent matter if you cut the haunch first.

[Bill Adamsen]

Yes, just dropped the cutter to cut the haunch. This was my 15 to 30mm X 250mm adj groover so had to make 2 passes. The tenon heads I have at home are thicker and can do it in one pass. I Just put a 15mm spacer against the backstop to adjust for the 15mm deep panel groove. This side of the groovers do not have the knickers but it dosent matter if you cut the haunch first.

What groove size (you indicate a 15mm depth which is comparable to what I do) do you cut for your panel? Is there a simple answer for any advantage to using a disc that large in diameter? I'm looking at the Felder catalog and it shows a "T" max of 80mm for their 250mm slotting cutter. That is an impressively long 3.4" tenon. My shaper manual says it can handle 250mm but I have nothing currently of that size and I shudder to think of the fence opening.

[Joe Calhoon]

Bill,
We are 15 mm deep for our groove on square edge work. I came to this dimension because that is what our profiled stile and rail cutters are and keeps everything the same with software and layout. It’s also a better depth for IG. Only down side is TDL can get chunky at that depth. Width of groove is usually 20mm for flat panel interior doors, 32mm for double panel 2 1/4 exterior doors. More for 68 mm thick exterior and usually 10mm for 1” cabinet doors. Raised panels call for different widths yet and that is the beauty of using adjustable groovers for this.

I have 320 diameter disks for tenoning and can get about a 4 1/4” long tenon with those. Those size disks require a tenon hood in place of the shaper fence and a good idea to have a heavy side mount sliding table for those cutters. Although I have used this size cutter with my bolt on sliding table and a shop made hood for certain tasks.

The 250mm diameter head is useful because it fits inside the standard fence on both my shapers and quick to setup on the vintage T23 because the fence swivels and can be used as a backstop. Quicker than removing the fence and installing the tenon hood. I bought this cutter to use as a adjustable groover in the sliding saw but it makes for nice tenoning on the shaper. I used it a while back to cut 5 1/2” long through tenons on the saw. It is painful working one side at a time. On the vintage shaper the 250 diameter does hang out a lot on the fence and I need to get a overhead guard for that.

For cabinet door tenoning my 160 diameter groovers and multiuse cutters are the go to with about a 2” depth capacity.

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[Bill Adamsen]

Joe ... super incredibly helpful advice. Thank you!