The perpetual question: Minimax v. Hammer, does it really just come down to price?

[Jeff Ranck]

So I've decided the time has come to upgrade my little lunchbox planer to a J/P combo machine. I've read every thread on this website and every other thread that I can find anywhere else, watched every video I can find, and anything else that I can lay my hands on that discusses the two models (Minimax FS 30c v. Hammer A3-31). I've talked to the reps (thanks for Sam's contact info btw) and compared the machines with the segmented cutter blocks. One has a little wider working width, one has a little longer beds, one has a little bit more of this, the other a little bit more of that. You can find folks that are fans of either machine and also find folks that weren't happy with the alignment, flatness, machining, etc. of their machines when they came.

As far as I can tell, there doesn't seem to be a compelling reason to go with one over the other. Does it really just come down to price and which color you like? Right now, it seems like Hammer is willing to give me more of a deal than Minimax. So is that what it really comes down to?

Maybe that's a great thing b/c it means that I'll likely be happy with either. However, before I pulled the trigger, I thought I'd ask just once more if anyone has a reason that I should choose one over the other.

[Andrew Hughes]

Longer beds for sure.

[Greg Parrish]

Jeff, I’ve got no first hand experience but just went through the same process and ultimately ordered a hammer A3-31 with silent cutter head. I struggled with comparing this machine to the minimax f30 classic as well as just going separates like a Powermatic 15” planer and 8” jointer. In the end, I made my ultimate decision based on sticking to my initial desire to compact space and secondly based on a need to limit sound. So, comparing the two combo machines I found better pricing on the Hammer with the segmented head. Also found nothing but positive remarks on either. Tough call but I picked based on the comparative cost of the two segmented head machines.

Then, lo and behold, I start searching for info on sliders to potentially upgrade next year and found my first bad Hammer review last night. Not sure what to make of it but will share it so others can comment since it has me a little nervous about my pending order. Not posting it to scare you away as it may be an isolated situation but hopefully the Hammer owners of the group will address from their first hand perspective. My experience with Hammer/Felder so far has been top notch. In fact the sales rep has been the most attentive, thorough and hands on wood working tool person/company I’ve ever worked with. He personally calls me with updates and status changes as my order process through.

http://rogerxue-eim.blogspot.com/2017/04/hammer-b3-winner-sliding-table-saw.html

[Derek Cohen]

What a strange review. Perhaps I am being defensive, or have lower standards, but he was extremely picky. Some of his criticisms were based on inaccurate understanding (such as the height of the slider being 0.5mm above the main section as a major fault), and others due to disappointments at the compromises he did not expect (such as the shaper being further away from the slider than he would have like when it was set up instead as a router). It was clear he regretted selling his SS to get a B3. In any event, Greg, you have purchased an A3-31, which is a very different machine. I have one and it has performed faultlessly for 3 years.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Julie Moriarty]

Like Greg, I too went through an exhausting search for information before purchasing a Hammer A3 31. What sold me on Hammer was the Silent Power cutterblock. FWIW, I put more stock in videos than written testimony. Every video I watched that focused on quality of cut and noise (two major points with me) showed the Hammer performing impressively well. To be fair, I did not see as many videos on the Minimax. I attributed that to the possibility there are more Hammer models out there or maybe more Hammer owners who made videos.

One comment here that bothered me stated that the Minimax reps weren't all that helpful and, after purchase, if you call them with a problem they will tell you to call SCM. Other factors: I liked that the Felder website was more informative and listed options and accessories. Felder also produces the videos you see on their website whereas SCM videos seem to be made by owners of their equipment. (At least the ones I saw on the f30 page were.) That kinda made me wonder if SCM was too cheap to make their own.

And then there is where the machines are made. It is my understanding Minimax are Asian made while Hammer machines are made in house in Tirol, Austria. I also like the idea that Hammer has Austrian engineering behind it. As for color, I like Format 4 blue :rolleyes:

If you decide to go with the Hammer A3 31, I was told by the Felder rep they won't be in stock again until October. I guess they sold a lot during the IWF weekend. So if availability is a big factor, you may want to call the reps and confirm who has what in stock right now.

[Dan Friedrichs]

Jeff, I think you're right that only minor differences might pull someone one way or the other based on personal preferences.

After having a real loud lunchbox planer, I really appreciated the Hammer "SilentPower" cutterhead. Although others might say that they prefer the quicker knife changes of the MM.

If the Hammer is cheaper and you don't have a reason to prefer the MM, I can't see how you'd be going wrong that way.

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi, in my experience the shipping damage is unusual, and normally Felder take care of any that does happen.

My machine was on schedule on arrival at Felder Canada, then it took a couple of weeks for a slot in the delivery schedule. (Felder delivered it themselves and left it on the pallet, in the garage for me, as instructed).

I didn't expect any blades when I bought my B3 and I had my old blades bored for $20 each, and I purchased a scoring blade because I never owned a saw with scoring before.

I don't understand the blade tilt issue, mine works fine with the standard factory throat plate. Since I ordered the dado option it came with a second throat plate for that.

The tenon issue is one I'm not sure about. I ordered the tenon hood and table for mine, the tenon table adjusts right up to the cutter head, as does the tenon fence. I haven't checked however I believe the tenon table would have enough adjustment to even go up to a router bit.

Yes I've dropped screws, and once I dropped the arbour washer down the dust hood:D, I don't think it's a design issue, I think it's an operator issue in my case.

The sliding table is factory set to be slightly above the fixed table to reduce sliding friction. The specs for my machine indicate it should be between 0.0 and 0.35mm, mine is at 0.20mm. I have no issues with ripping accuracy.

The manual, yeah, the manual has lots of information in it, however they're really designed for the user, not the Tech. I think the assumption is that the machine will be commissioned by a Felder Tech, and they will know what all the hardware is for. Felder have been producing some assembly and uncrating videos which help, obviously a bit more info would be helpful.

I don't have any rip fence issues.

Sorry to hear that the OP isn't happy, it doesn't reflect my experiences with 4 Hammer machines delivered to my house............Rod.

P.S. The riving knife issue, the OP doesn't have a riving knife, K3/B3 machines come with a splitter that mounts the Euro saw guard. If you want a riving knife, you order one, they come in different thicknesses, I have both. When I'm using the Euro guard, the splitter is on the saw. When I'm using the overhead guard, the riving knife is on the saw so I can perform non-through cuts.

[Greg Parrish]

What a strange review. Perhaps I am being defensive, or have lower standards, but he was extremely picky. Some of his criticisms were based on inaccurate understanding (such as the height of the slider being 0.5mm above the main section as a major fault), and others due to disappointments at the compromises he did not expect (such as the shaper being further away from the slider than he would have like when it was set up instead as a router). It was clear he regretted selling his SS to get a B3. In any event, Greg, you have purchased an A3-31, which is a very different machine. I have one and it has performed faultlessly for 3 years.

Regards from Perth

Derek


Oh, I know, but I am also interested in a K3 (or B3) machine one day too. Most likely a K3 though. Anyway as mentioned I’d not seen one bad or disparaging review of the Hammer machines and honestly I’ve been quite enamored with them after watching all the videos and thinking of how my shop would benefit from this change up. I’m going through a major renovation again in my shop to make the new jointer/planer fit and to eventually change out my beloved fully restored 1972 PM66 for a 48” slider one day. I really like everything I’ve seen about them so far with regards to my personal usage and project interests.

Thanks for the inflection on the review though as I thought it might be a one off situation and wanted to get comparative responses to it.

[Rod Sheridan]

Jeff, in my opinion it comes down to support.

Unfortunately my experiences with the local Minimax dealers drove me away from them. I'm sure there must be a lot of really happy Minimax customers, however they must have had a far better experience than mine.

Which supplier will give you better support? Parts, service staff, commissioning or repair, check out those considerations in your area, that's what's really important.

I live in Toronto, Felder Canada is in Toronto, it's hard to beat that level of support for me, and their customer support sold the first machine I bought from them, followed by three more........Rod.

[Greg Parrish]

Thanks Rod. That helps me, and probably the OP to hear. Didn’t want to discourage anyone by linking that review but did want to at least get feedback since I came across it last night. Puts my mind at ease to see reasonable responses that are not just “fan” based glossing over. Your real experience is invaluable to those of us just taking the step somewhat blindly.


Hi, in my experience the shipping damage is unusual, and normally Felder take care of any that does happen.

My machine was on schedule on arrival at Felder Canada, then it took a couple of weeks for a slot in the delivery schedule. (Felder delivered it themselves and left it on the pallet, in the garage for me, as instructed).

I didn't expect any blades when I bought my B3 and I had my old blades bored for $20 each, and I purchased a scoring blade because I never owned a saw with scoring before.

I don't understand the blade tilt issue, mine works fine with the standard factory throat plate. Since I ordered the dado option it came with a second throat plate for that.

The tenon issue is one I'm not sure about. I ordered the tenon hood and table for mine, the tenon table adjusts right up to the cutter head, as does the tenon fence. I haven't checked however I believe the tenon table would have enough adjustment to even go up to a router bit.

Yes I've dropped screws, and once I dropped the arbour washer down the dust hood:D, I don't think it's a design issue, I think it's an operator issue in my case.

The sliding table is factory set to be slightly above the fixed table to reduce sliding friction. The specs for my machine indicate it should be between 0.0 and 0.35mm, mine is at 0.20mm. I have no issues with ripping accuracy.

The manual, yeah, the manual has lots of information in it, however they're really designed for the user, not the Tech. I think the assumption is that the machine will be commissioned by a Felder Tech, and they will know what all the hardware is for. Felder have been producing some assembly and uncrating videos which help, obviously a bit more info would be helpful.

I don't have any rip fence issues.

Sorry to hear that the OP isn't happy, it doesn't reflect my experiences with 4 Hammer machines delivered to my house............Rod.

[Dan Friedrichs]

Greg, one other comment about that review you linked: it seemed like the writer was disappointed that blades, collets, etc, were not included. I think that is just a reflection of the more a la carte business model. In my case, I bought a C3-31 with the "comfort" package, which included literally every accessory I could imagine needing (main blade, scoring blade, extra j/p cutters, shaper spindles, spacers, 1/2" and 1/4" router bit collets for the shaper, guards, push sticks, an insert shaper head with various knives and limiters, etc, etc...). But I think it reflects a more literal and precise view of things: they send you exactly what is listed, so if there is something you want, make sure it's on the list of what you're buying. If it's not on the spec list, they assume you intentionally did not order it, so they don't send it.

[David Kumm]

Realistically, in todays competitive market, two woodworking machines of roughly the same price will have roughly the same level of quality. Taiwan or chinese machines may have a labor advantage so the extrusions and build might be heavier but sometimes QC issues offset that. Machines at the lower end of the model choices in particular will be very close in specs as that is where the volume is. Felder used to rely on the 7-700 series for the bulk of its sales, now Hammer is the volume leader. There is a big jump to the 900 series but much less to the 700. I've been told by Felder users that the at least for certain machines, the advantage of 700 to Hammer is less than it used to be. I think the Hammer to MM comparison is less relevant than the comparison among the various models offered by each and cost benefit analysis applied to that. Dave

PS. It is also tough to do a real comparison. You will never know the relative quality of the cast iron or steel used, or the size and quality of the bearings. To judge motor quality you need to pull the motor and have it looked at by a motor guy. You would need to know the tolerences for the grind- all info that is hard to get. Look at both machines, talk to the companies and find a few owners to get their take. There is much more risk when buying a car or choosing a spouse so keep it in perspective.

[Greg Parrish]

Greg, one other comment about that review you linked: it seemed like the writer was disappointed that blades, collets, etc, were not included. I think that is just a reflection of the more a la carte business model. In my case, I bought a C3-31 with the "comfort" package, which included literally every accessory I could imagine needing (main blade, scoring blade, extra j/p cutters, shaper spindles, spacers, 1/2" and 1/4" router bit collets for the shaper, guards, push sticks, an insert shaper head with various knives and limiters, etc, etc...). But I think it reflects a more literal and precise view of things: they send you exactly what is listed, so if there is something you want, make sure it's on the list of what you're buying. If it's not on the spec list, they assume you intentionally did not order it, so they don't send it.


Thanks for that. But especially because I’d been wondering what the “comfort” model meant when seeing it on their site. LOL

[Jim Becker]

I really do think it comes down to desired features and price between these two name plates. The gear is otherwise similar. "Support" is an interesting concept these days simply because for stationary tools, it pretty much comes down to parts availability. With rare exceptions, the owner is responsible for the physical work if anything goes wrong. That's even true for most mass-market stationary tools, even when bought through a local retailer in so many cases.

I got involved with SCM/Minimax in the early 2000s so I have a natural affinity toward that brand and the people. (I've known Sam for a very long time, for example, and he's even visited my shop and I've visited his shop) But from a machine standpoint, I could be very happy with Hammer/Felder if I was shopping for something new. While it's less applicable to a J/P, the singular thing that I'm guarded about with Hammer/Felder is that some of the tooling, such as saw blades, etc, is Felder-specific whereas I can run regular blades, etc., on my MiniMax slider and source Tersa knives for my J/P from multiple sources. The sales philosophy is slightly different, too. SCM/Minimax says, "here's what you get". Hammer/Felder says, "how do you want it built...here's the long list of options". Both are valid ways to do business and both have their advantages and disadvantages.

[Derek Cohen]

the singular thing that I'm guarded about with Hammer/Felder is that some of the tooling, such as saw blades, etc, is Felder-specific whereas I can run regular blades, etc

Jim, I'm curious - how are the saw blades different?

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Ben Rivel]

I never could figure out a significant difference between the two either. For me it came down to Hammer because their west coast office/showroom is very close to me and I was able to avoid shipping costs and their equipment is cheaper. I just jumped on the recent IWF deal for the A3-31 and am waiting for that to come into the warehouse next month. I also have a Hammer N4400 that has been great for my needs.

[Rod Sheridan]

Jim, I'm curious - how are the saw blades different?

Regards from Perth

Derek

Hi, I'm not Jim, and I don't play him in a commercial either. :D

That said the Felder/Hammer saw blades have a 30mm bore and two 9.5mm holes at 46.35 mm radius from the center.

The 9.5mm holes are for two pins that lock the blade to the arbour (the saw has automatic blade braking).................Regards, Rod.

[John TenEyck]

I've never read a horror story of poor customer service about Felder/Hammer.

John

[Greg Parrish]

I've never read a horror story of poor customer service about Felder/Hammer.

John

Ive read the various Laguna horror stories too but personally had nothing but top notch response and service when I encountered a small issue on my laguna lathe. Go figure. Guess mostly only negative experiences get posted but so far my Felder experience has been good.......... all except for not already having the new toy in hand. LOL

[Jim Becker]

Jim, I'm curious - how are the saw blades different?

Regards from Perth

Derek
The Minimax takes a normal "table saw" blade...5/8" or 1" bore with no special drilling. I can also use a normal 8" or 6" dado stack. Felder has a larger bore with two alignment bores and only supports their dado setup. This is not to be taken as a "negative"...it's just something that's different that one needs to know. It's certainly possible to get existing blades bored out by a competent service so they can be used on the Hammer/Felder, too.

[Jeff Ranck]

I........ all except for not already having the new toy in hand. LOL

:) (and now for the extra stuff to meet the 10 character minimum)

[John TenEyck]

Ive read the various Laguna horror stories too but personally had nothing but top notch response and service when I encountered a small issue on my laguna lathe. Go figure. Guess mostly only negative experiences get posted but so far my Felder experience has been good.......... all except for not already having the new toy in hand. LOL

Those bad experiences did happen to someone though. I bought a Grizzly bandsaw and had nothing but a good experience. I get your point, but if I had a choice between two companies making very similar products at very similar prices the one that had the better CS would be the way I fell.

Personally, I rarely buy new stationary machines. I'm happy letting someone else deal with any problems with a new machine purchase, and then pay about half the price of new when they decide to sell. That's how I became the happy owner of a Minimax FS35. It was 30+ years old when I bought it; looked brand new in it's yellow paint.

John

[Rod Sheridan]

Thanks Greg, I've modified my post, I added information about the riving knife complaint...........Regards, Rod.

[Rod Sheridan]

The Minimax takes a normal "table saw" blade...5/8" or 1" bore with no special drilling. I can also use a normal 8" or 6" dado stack. Felder has a larger bore with two alignment bores and only supports their dado setup. This is not to be taken as a "negative"...it's just something that's different that one needs to know. It's certainly possible to get existing blades bored out by a competent service so they can be used on the Hammer/Felder, too.

Jim, the Felder/Hammer machines will also use a stacked dado, I happen to have an FS Tools dado, almost any manufacturer can supply one.......Rod.

[Jim Becker]

Jim, the Felder/Hammer machines will also use a stacked dado, I happen to have an FS Tools dado, almost any manufacturer can supply one.......Rod.
Hmm...do you have to have them drilled out for the alignment pins or is there an alternative arbor used for that?

[Rod Sheridan]

Hmm...do you have to have them drilled out for the alignment pins or is there an alternative arbor used for that?

Hi Jim, you have to have then drilled.

Since the arbour is 30mm I often use the dado on the shaper as an adjustable groover.............Rod.

[Jay Runde]

The Minimax takes a normal "table saw" blade...5/8" or 1" bore with no special drilling. I can also use a normal 8" or 6" dado stack. Felder has a larger bore with two alignment bores and only supports their dado setup. This is not to be taken as a "negative"...it's just something that's different that one needs to know. It's certainly possible to get existing blades bored out by a competent service so they can be used on the Hammer/Felder, too.

Forrest (https://www.forrestblades.com/dado-king/8-dado-king-saw-blade-set-2-outside-blades-6-chippers-and-blade-runner-carrying-case-en/)makes a dado stack that fits a Felder slider, though it isn't cheap.

[Albert Lee]

if the spec is exactly the same and the waiting time is the same, but SCM/Minimax is slightly more than Felder, I go for the SCM/Minimax.

I have a new Felder AD951 and I have owned 2 x SCM wide belt sanders to date

If I am making a purchase again for a wide belt sander, I will buy SCM.

Felder does have some nice feature but its up to individual's preference.

I like Italian woodworking machines. I have a few in my workshop(Masterwood, Griggio, Omga) and I wouldnt want to trade it for anything else, the only reason I bought the Felder was because there was no SCM JP combo in the entire Oceania back then, the nearest JP combo(500mm+ capacity) is in SCM's showroom in Italy and it will take 4 months to arrive - I need it within 4 days. I cant wait for 4 months.

[Greg Parrish]

if the spec is exactly the same and the waiting time is the same, but SCM/Minimax is slightly more than Felder, I go for the SCM/Minimax.

I have a new Felder AD951 and I have owned 2 x SCM wide belt sanders to date

If I am making a purchase again for a wide belt sander, I will buy SCM.

Felder does have some nice feature but its up to individual's preference.

I like Italian woodworking machines. I have a few in my workshop(Masterwood, Griggio, Omga) and I wouldnt want to trade it for anything else, the only reason I bought the Felder was because there was no SCM JP combo in the entire Oceania back then, the nearest JP combo(500mm+ capacity) is in SCM's showroom in Italy and it will take 4 months to arrive - I need it within 4 days. I cant wait for 4 months.


Good info Albert. I’ve been looking heavily at the SCM/MM sliders for a next year purchase even though I ended up with the Hammer J/P.

[Jeff Ranck]

So I finally chose the MM FS30c. I placed the order with Sam and should be seeing the details on lead time tomorrow. Thanks everyone.

[Greg Parrish]

So I finally chose the MM FS30c. I placed the order with Sam and should be seeing the details on lead time tomorrow. Thanks everyone.

Congrats! Know you are going to be thrilled to get it.

What were the deciding factors? It looks like it has a longer bed and much longer bed. Just curious.

[Jim Becker]

Forrest (https://www.forrestblades.com/dado-king/8-dado-king-saw-blade-set-2-outside-blades-6-chippers-and-blade-runner-carrying-case-en/)makes a dado stack that fits a Felder slider, though it isn't cheap.
Yes, that's true. I was only saying that in the "pro" column for the SCM/Minimax, a "standard" 5/8" bore (or 1" bore) blade or stack is usable. Felder's arbor system isn't a "con", either...it's just different.

[Jim Becker]

So I finally chose the MM FS30c. I placed the order with Sam and should be seeing the details on lead time tomorrow. Thanks everyone.

Congratulations! You'll enjoy having a nice J/P at your disposal in your shop.

[Jeff Ranck]

Congrats! Know you are going to be thrilled to get it.

What were the deciding factors? It looks like it has a longer bed and much longer bed. Just curious.

You know, in the end I think it came down to the time Sam spent answering all my questions. I like the longer beds (although Hammer has those extensions). I do loose 10mm in working width, but the MM has a thinner working thickness. Although only a little thinner, (1/8" for the MM vs. 3/16 for the Hammer - or whatever the metric equivalent is), in my past experience, I tend to use thinner rather than wider. One reason I stuck with a lunchbox so long. They tend to have thinner working thicknesses than floor machines.

In any event, I don't think I could have made a bad choice.

The one interesting thing about making this choice that was clear to me is that there is a lot of great information (both from Felder and from owners) about the Hammer. There is much less information on the MM, to the point that several of the videos they link to on their site do not exist any more. Thus, it is tough to find information on some of the details on how the machine works or is built. I expect that SCM is loosing sales because of the difficulty in having clear information available. Sorry, but a sales brochure with little information just wasn't enough for me. Fortunately, Sam was patient in answering all my questions.

[Greg Parrish]

You know, in the end I think it came down to the time Sam spent answering all my questions. I like the longer beds (although Hammer has those extensions). I do loose 10mm in working width, but the MM has a thinner working thickness. Although only a little thinner, (1/8" for the MM vs. 3/16 for the Hammer - or whatever the metric equivalent is), in my past experience, I tend to use thinner rather than wider. One reason I stuck with a lunchbox so long. They tend to have thinner working thicknesses than floor machines.

In any event, I don't think I could have made a bad choice.

The one interesting thing about making this choice that was clear to me is that there is a lot of great information (both from Felder and from owners) about the Hammer. There is much less information on the MM, to the point that several of the videos they link to on their site do not exist any more. Thus, it is tough to find information on some of the details on how the machine works or is built. I expect that SCM is loosing sales because of the difficulty in having clear information available. Sorry, but a sales brochure with little information just wasn't enough for me. Fortunately, Sam was patient in answering all my questions.


Makes sense and and honestly I didn’t even think about planing thinness when deciding. I ended up deciding ultimately based on price with the silent head since I work in a neighborhood garage. However, I was thinking my drum sander would fill the bill for thin stock now so I guess that will be the case going forward too.

Thanks for for sharing and hope you enjoy it. Mine is on a truck headed to me today according to my email. :)

[David Kumm]

Join the MM yahoo group. Both MM and Felder have good groups who know what they are talking about and very objective about the good and bad of the machines. I'm on both and often machine issues are solved within the group before resolved by the companies. Neither are bashful about telling you what they like and dislike about any machine. Dave

[Brian Holcombe]

David, could you provide a link to those groups? I've had trouble finding them.

I've dealt with both Felder and SCM on service and both companies were expedient, helpful and went over and above (in my opinion). I had the motor brake fail on the minimax J/P and a new motor was sent to me, from Italy. It was at least reassuring that they were willing to make it right and do so quickly.

Felder helped me recently ordering parts for the mortiser conversion on the FD-250. There was an original mix-up to the specific parts, but once I contacted them a second time and said I felt that something wasn't right about the parts list they went into action. One of the service reps dug through the stock room until he found the missing parts, then shipped them out to me. I think that is pretty awesome, in most cases I can't imagine that happening.

I had to do the physical work in the first case, and do a bit of research in the second case but after all was said and done I think it worked out nicely and both certainly get positive marks from me.

[Patrick Kane]

The high quality videos Felder puts out are effective. A few of them convinced me I wanted to give a saw/shaper combo a go, and while I didnt buy new from them, it did lead to me choosing a felder. It helps they are entertaining as well. Quality production making some simple project.

[Albert Lee]

You know, in the end I think it came down to the time Sam spent answering all my questions. I like the longer beds (although Hammer has those extensions). I do loose 10mm in working width, but the MM has a thinner working thickness. Although only a little thinner, (1/8" for the MM vs. 3/16 for the Hammer - or whatever the metric equivalent is), in my past experience, I tend to use thinner rather than wider. One reason I stuck with a lunchbox so long. They tend to have thinner working thicknesses than floor machines.

In any event, I don't think I could have made a bad choice.

The one interesting thing about making this choice that was clear to me is that there is a lot of great information (both from Felder and from owners) about the Hammer. There is much less information on the MM, to the point that several of the videos they link to on their site do not exist any more. Thus, it is tough to find information on some of the details on how the machine works or is built. I expect that SCM is loosing sales because of the difficulty in having clear information available. Sorry, but a sales brochure with little information just wasn't enough for me. Fortunately, Sam was patient in answering all my questions.

I think this comes down to this:
SCM is more of production machine, I am not sure about North America, but where I am, you will not find people who owns and runs furniture manufacturing business with a number of employees will come online and share about how beautiful their SCM worked and all, its just keep on working, hence not a lot of review, but a lot of 30-40 years old SCM machines came out of closed down business/owner retiring but not many second hand Felder.

There was a furniture maker who closed down recently and not too far from where I am, the business has full SCM machines, ranging from 50 yo to 5 months old.

But for Felder, it is a different story. people who buys Felder are professional hobbyist who often has a full time job(lawyer, accountant...etc) and enjoys woodworking or have a semi production shop. therefore you will find flood of reviews. I have a full time job that is not related to woodworking, I know a lawyer who doesnt live too far away from me also owns a number of Felder/Hammer machines.

[David Kumm]

Minimax is the forgotten stepchild of SCM here in the US. If it weren't for Sam, they would have no marketing at all. Good machines though. Felder gets who its market is and targets them. I remember when they had only one series and were really a niche player. Now they market all levels of machinery. Moving downward really fueled their growth and gave them the ability to move up as well. I think their 700 series used to be their bread and butter but now it is the Hammer line. Felder used to be a big step up compared to hobby machines but now the step up is into the 900 and Format series. Dave

[Jim Becker]

MiniMax has been re-integrated into the SCM "classical tools" lineup and isn't really "separate" anymore like it was when I was buying my machines. With time passing...come changes. No disagreement about Sam's value, however. :)

[Chris Parks]

At this level of machinery it is a Chev/Ford thing minus one small but important part. The Hammer has a height/thickness indicator in the winding handle that is absolutely repeatable and accurate where the MM does not have the same facility. It is an accessory but could be regarded as essential in my book because it is simply the cream on top of a very good machine. If the MM had the same then the choice is truly line ball with CS as the decider.

[Brian Holcombe]

Minimax has that.

[Joe Jensen]

Search this forum for threads on support for SCMI and support for Felder. One guy Rick Fisher bought a new SCMI 24" bandsaw. Shipped with a broken part, he couldn't get any help from SCMI, and he ended up having a local shop fabricate a replacement. A few weeks into owning it the something electrical failed. Again no response from SCMI so he just paid a local motor shop to fix it. He has Griggio and a Martin planer and Martin sliding saw. He really likes Martin but the planer is like $28K. Search the forum. For me support is important after the sale. Lots of posts here.

[Warren Lake]

I thought the perpetual question was Ginger or Marianne. I wouldn't choose a machine over and another for a readout gauge. I asked here once when you set your gauge on a Hammer or Felder to what you want then measure both sides of say a 12" wide board with a caliper what do you get, no one answered. From what Ive seen machines are not exactly the same minor difference from side to side but still not the same so much for a gauge. I use a caliper and know what have on both sides.

Of 100 or so shops that have gone to dust not too far away I can remember seeing one Felder Machine. Bogden and Gross in Hanover had a shaper and power feeder. I remember that because almost all the shops had 1 1/4 tooling or larger but that one was 30 MM I think. Bigger will work with bushings but can complicate things. Ive seen more SCM likely than all the others added together. Id have to go through photos of the shops but its always there and fair bit of it. Never seen a Martin in any of those shops and many were the top shops in or around Toronto some 50 plus year businesses with 50-80 or more employees. Baurle and other German machines though and maybe three Wadkin if that.

[Chris Parks]

Minimax has that.

I can't see where they do for the FS30, certainly for the FS41. For the disbelievers, sorry I can't do anything about your doubts as you have never used it.

[Brian Holcombe]

It’s on the FS41 ES. Don’t know about the others.

[Julie Moriarty]

I think this comes down to this:
SCM is more of production machine, I am not sure about North America, but where I am, you will not find people who owns and runs furniture manufacturing business with a number of employees will come online and share about how beautiful their SCM worked and all, its just keep on working, hence not a lot of review, but a lot of 30-40 years old SCM machines came out of closed down business/owner retiring but not many second hand Felder.

There was a furniture maker who closed down recently and not too far from where I am, the business has full SCM machines, ranging from 50 yo to 5 months old.

But for Felder, it is a different story. people who buys Felder are professional hobbyist who often has a full time job(lawyer, accountant...etc) and enjoys woodworking or have a semi production shop. therefore you will find flood of reviews. I have a full time job that is not related to woodworking, I know a lawyer who doesnt live too far away from me also owns a number of Felder/Hammer machines.
I get this line of reasoning. I came to woodworking through the hobbyist path. What I've learned has been self taught or online. I've never worked with a professional woodworker.

But in my profession, as an electrician, I learned most everything from the journeymen I worked and the jobs I worked on. I've worked mostly commercial jobs and the vast majority of tools and materials I worked with you will never see in a home. Even residential electric contractors would never use many of those tools. What I consider professional tools for the electrician probably would never cross the mind of the non-professional.

Felder came across my radar through forums. And their website is very intuitive and informative. You won't see that on Greenlee or Enerpac websites because they are not catering to the individual.

[Van Huskey]

If it weren't for Sam, they would have no marketing at all.

The thing about Sam is he is passionate about the machines and he actually uses them to make a living. He will talk all day about machines (especially bandsaws) simply because he loves and appreciates them. He is a rare bird in sales.

Felder does a far better job with their website than SCM does. It produces a "better" selling environment for most hobbyists. Just the fact you can get prices on their site makes it more conducive to hobbyist sales. At least you can get MM prices for some machines on their dealer sites.

[Chris Fournier]

You won't go wrong with either machine but anyone who says that they are equivalent is not giving you good advice. Own either and get on with your woodworking, good practices will yield great results. But make no mistake SCM has their own foundry and their machines have heavier castings and longer tables. Silent cutterhead? What does that even matter? Would you use your machine without hearing protection? Tersa vs segmented cutting block, and what we have both is a tomato, tomahto thing. I have chosen MM twice and for me it has been the right choice. These machines do not add precision to your woodworking, you do. Felder/Hammer marketing is really about hype in my opinion.

[Jim Andrew]

Most of us on the forum probably have no opportunity to compare Minimax to Hammer machines, we have to rely on forums such as this one, and what we read on websites. I have had the opportunity to see a full size SCMI slider, but never used it, talked to the guy who did, he said the main reason they bought the machine was for safety. He did say that any service on the saw was hugely expensive.

[Mike Wilkins]

Check with whatever manufacturer you are considering and see if there is a list of prior customers who are willing to let you come to their shop and check out these machines in person. Nothing like hands-on touchy-feely to get a better idea of what you want. And a real-life opinion from a user, not just a salesperson.

[Jim Becker]

Check with whatever manufacturer you are considering and see if there is a list of prior customers who are willing to let you come to their shop and check out these machines in person. Nothing like hands-on touchy-feely to get a better idea of what you want. And a real-life opinion from a user, not just a salesperson.
I agree with this and it's very common for both Felder and SCM/Minimax to help with that. I've had quite a few visitors over the years in to see my gear before they finalized their own choices. Even if the machine or machines local to you are not the exact thing you are looking at, being able to see machinery from your considered brand and speak with an actual owner is a really good thing.

[Rod Sheridan]

I agree with this and it's very common for both Felder and SCM/Minimax to help with that. I've had quite a few visitors over the years in to see my gear before they finalized their own choices. Even if the machine or machines local to you are not the exact thing you are looking at, being able to see machinery from your considered brand and speak with an actual owner is a really good thing.

Yes, this is a great suggestion. I've had dozens of people over for shop visits.

The benefit is that you get a customers perspective on the machinery, sales, service, parts and support provided by the manufacturer.

With machines in these classes you're not going to find that the machine won't perform, you'll get to hear how well, or how poorly the vendor solved any of the onwer's concerns, and how good their long term support of you was........Rod.

[Greg Parrish]

Yes, this is a great suggestion. I've had dozens of people over for shop visits.

The benefit is that you get a customers perspective on the machinery, sales, service, parts and support provided by the manufacturer.

With machines in these classes you're not going to find that the machine won't perform, you'll get to hear how well, or how poorly the vendor solved any of the onwer's concerns, and how good their long term support of you was........Rod.

The Felder reps have called me numberous times post sale, post delivery, to inquire about machine setup and the pallet situation. Can’t ask for more. In fact while talking to Tim in DE this morning I went ahead and ordered an extension and bracket for the planer outfeed.

[Erik Loza]

I have the rare privilege of being able to say I have used both, and rather extensively at that. Since IÂ’m out of the biz, my 2-cents. Accept or reject as you like:

-If the price were the same, IÂ’d take an MM any day of the week.

-If I couldnÂ’t afford an MM, I would get the Hammer and probably be happy with it. It certainly will be a huge step up from what the average hobbyist is used to using.

-If you had a chance to use an FS30 and A3-31 for a month and had to send one back at the end, youÂ’d send back the A3-31.

-SCM GroupÂ’s marketing and sales strategy in the US is terrible which, unfortunately, paints a negative image in the eyes of many prospective customers. Felder understands their customer base and has fantastic marketing and sales material.

-EVERY manufacturer has owners with horror stories. Just like every manufacturer has way more happy owners that probably never post on the internet. 75% of my customers with Felder or MM were never on the internet to begin with.

-DonÂ’t get hung up on doo-dads like digital readouts or table extensions. At least not to the point of going with one brand over another. There are plenty of aftermarket options out there if you arenÂ’t hung up on staying OEM. Buy the machine, not the bells and whistles.

-Buy from who you feel the most comfortable dealing with. You WILL have questions after the sale. Personally, I would prefer to talk with a company representative who actually has woodworking experience, uses the machines themselves, etc. Sam Blasco walks the walk and if you are in the US, that alone would tip my scale.

-Lastly, accept the fact that you will probably buy based upon emotion, then come up with “facts” to defend your decision afterward. Never forget that no matter how helpful this or that rep is, both SCM Group and Felder are sales-driven companies and that’s the bottom line. So, buy what you think will make you most happy.

Erik

[Peter Kelly]

I thought the perpetual question was Ginger or Marianne.Samantha or Jeannie.

Really, there is no wrong choice.

[Warren Lake]

having either around would make moving machinery so much easier

[brent stanley]

having either around would make moving machinery so much easier
Yeah, because all your buddies would drop everything to come over and help!

[Warren Lake]

wasnt thinking that at all, now im wondering what is wrong with me, geez I hope im not oh never mind, one nod of the head or wiggle of the nose and no Lift truck needed and presto right in the basement all wired up.

[mark mcfarlane]

FWIW, I purchased a few Minimax machines from Sam Blasco a year ago. Before and after sales support have exceed my expectations.

[Julie Moriarty]

And there's the Felder contracts, which may or may not matter, depending on the individual.

When you accept the order, the contract you sign says:

"All machines are checked and tested at our factory in Austria to the point that material is run through the machine. In most cases the machines keep their tolerance's very well and will arrive to your shop in great condition and ready to run. A calibration service is available and can be scheduled with our service department. Please confirm yes or no if you would be interested in this service at an additional fee. Keep in mind free phone / internet support is available for the life of your machine and many smaller / easy adjustment can be done by the customer with support from our team."

And there's a "Yes" and "No" for you to check. Under that it says:

Not all machines require a calibration / installation service but if you are interested please confirm costs with your sales representative. It's in bold and underlined on the contract.

When you submit your initial deposit, the contract you sign says:

"I understand and have agreed that the charges being debited are being accepted as guaranteed cash payment for parts and/or services rendered. I further understand and agree that the above charge/debit is therefore non-refundable."

When you submit final payment, the contract you sign says:

"I understand and have agreed that the charges being debited are being accepted as guaranteed cash payment for parts and/or services rendered. I further understand and agree that the above charge/debit is therefore indisputable."

[Peter Kelly]

And there's the Felder contracts, which may or may not matter, depending on the individual.

When you accept the order, the contract you sign says:

"All machines are checked and tested at our factory in Austria to the point that material is run through the machine. In most cases the machines keep their tolerance's very well and will arrive to your shop in great condition and ready to run. A calibration service is available and can be scheduled with our service department. Please confirm yes or no if you would be interested in this service at an additional fee. Keep in mind free phone / internet support is available for the life of your machine and many smaller / easy adjustment can be done by the customer with support from our team."This turned me off as well "we didn't necessarily build this but we did look at it and it may or may not be calibrated correctly". I also felt as though I received very few straight answers from the Felder sales reps I spoke with at the office in Delaware. Was also tough seeing the Felder-branded K and AD series machines next to the Hammer stuff as the differences in build quality (and pricing) are pretty stark.

[Jim Becker]

wasnt thinking that at all, now im wondering what is wrong with me, geez I hope im not oh never mind, one nod of the head or wiggle of the nose and no Lift truck needed and presto right in the basement all wired up.
JK Rolling can help you with that... :) :D

[Jeff Ranck]

David, could you provide a link to those groups? I've had trouble finding them.



Any luck finding the SCM group?

[Peter Kelly]

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/MiniMax-USA/info

[Brian Holcombe]

Thank you!

[Jeff Ranck]

Thanks for the link!

[Warren Lake]

do you have to join it or can you just read it, is it for all SCM stuff or just the MM stuff

[Peter Kelly]

You'll need a Yahoo acct and submit a request to join.