Cabinet saw or slider for a hobbyist?

[Jesse Brown]

My contractor saw is a nice saw, but it has a few shortcomings that bug me:



It won't cut clean bevels. I once spent an entire Saturday trying to shim it before convincing myself that it's a design limitation
Cross-cutting panels can be clumsy
I find it to be underpowered sometimes
I don't care for the right tilt
I made a dust panel for the back, but I have to remove it whenever I want to tilt the blade
The right table extension sags too much to make a good router table (OK, I've been too lazy to fix it :) )
I can get pretty clean cuts on veneered plywood, but it take a lot of fussing


I was about to order a Sawstop PCS with the router table when I got interested in sliders. Something like a Hammer C3 is more expensive, but it's close enough for me to consider. I could sell my 12" J/P to make room for a combination machine, and maybe even free up some precious space. An 8' slider would still be too large, but I have a long guide for my track saw in those cases.

What do you think? Is a slider more than shop jewelry for a hobbyist, or should I look to myself for improvement rather than my tools? :)

[Martin Wasner]

If you can afford the cost and space for a slider, get a slider.

I don't care for sliders, but if I could only have one saw, I would have a slider

[Doug Landphair]

I can see where a slider would be quite handy. I have the SawStop PCS and wouldn't mind adding on either their slider or possibly aftermarket equipment. Can't say anything for or against equipment like the Hammer C3 but I'd really hate to give up the safety features of my SawStop. Just my 2 cents.

[eugene thomas]

I had the add on sliding table same as saw stop sells now on my cabinet saw.. I bought thre grizzly 70" or so slider... game changer. I would hate to go back to cabinet saw.

[John Sincerbeaux]

I bought my first tablesaw before I could drive. I have worked with many hobby-level and true industrial tablesaws for over 40 years. Last year, I replaced my PM 66 with a slider. After a year operating my slider, I can confidently say there is absolutely nothing a cabinet saw can do better than a slider. All sliders are not equal especially in size. My slider is a “short stroke” which takes the “too big” argument out of the picture. Saw Stop is no where as safe as a slider. Some will say sliders are only good for cutting sheet goods? Actually, sliders are the best saw for cutting the tiniest of pieces of wood.
I actually feel every tablesaw in every Hobbiest or Professional shop should be a slider.

[Jim Becker]

I went from a cabinet saw to a slider quite a few years ago and haven't looked back. If I had to downsize, I'd still have a slider, even if it only had a short stroke. The precision, repeatability and safety aspects of the format are valuable to me. Do note that there's a learning curve because we do some things differently on a slider than we might have on a North American design saw. But as John said, there's no limit to what you can do.

For the record, I have no issue with North American design saws, especially high quality ones. I just personally prefer the slider over that design...and this is, honestly, a very subjective thing.

[Mike Cutler]

If you have the room, slider.
I wish I had the room.:(

[Martin Wasner]

I actually feel every tablesaw in every Hobbiest or Professional shop should be a slider.


If you're using the fence to rip, the slide part really doesn't matter though. Or with a power feed.

Like I said, if I could only have one tablesaw, it would be a slider, but I have basically five set up for different things, only one of which I would consider a slider an improvement over what I've got.

[Bill Space]

I am totally happy with my cabinet saw.

However, if I had the room and could do it over, I would likely buy a slider rather than a cabinet saw.

So I too say go with the slider...:)

Bill

[Ralph Okonieski]

I went from a contractor table saw to slider. I love the slider. I would make the same choice if had to do again. For me, there is no comparison but it is your decision to make. The SawStop is a quality machine.

[Tom Bain]

I’m a hobbyist and went from a Unisaw to a Felder Slider about 4 years ago. There is definitely a learning curve with the slider (which is not to be underestimated) and I’m still learning :-). I’m very happy with the switch and the Felder is a more capable saw in every aspect. I would say the only thing I miss about the Unisaw is the ease of switching over to a dado stack. While the Felder has dado capability the set-up is not as quick or straightforward, and my saw can only handle a 6” dado stack.

[Rod Sheridan]

Definitely a slider.

I have a 4 foot stroke slider/shaper (Hammer B3) and wouldn't go back to a cabinet saw.

Mine has the same footprint my cabinet saw had yet with the outrigger on I can crosscut a sheet of plywood easily and accurately.

The capacity, capability and accuracy is far better than a cabinet safe, not to mention the improved safety......Rod.

[Jesse Brown]

There is definitely a learning curve with the slider (which is not to be underestimated)

I think this is my biggest concern, along with the fact that Sawstop seems very consumer-oriented, while the Euro slider companies aren't so much. At least that's my perception. Dado is nice to have, but I can live without it.

[Warren Lake]

if you get a slider that doesnt have a large outrigger carriage at the back you have a cabinet saw and a slider together in one. You can still use it like you used your cabinet saw though likely many things will be better quality than the cabinet saw was like the fence for instance, internal dust collection baffling and and. My two cabinet saws are toys compared to the used slider im working on. I had a first generation cross cut system on one of them on both sides. Very poor compared to what is on this old slider and its primative compared to other stuff now still way way better than the add on stuff I had on the cabinet saws

[johnny means]

My contractor saw is a nice saw, but it has a few shortcomings that bug me:




Cross-cutting panels can be clumsy




A cabinet saw will do nothing about this.

[Derek Cohen]

Jesse, I can only echo "me too". 12 months ago I was debating between a SawStop (with sliding cross-cut table) and a Hammer K3 with 49" slider. These were comparable in price. The K3 won out, and there has not been any post purchase trauma.

One can lock the slider, and then you have a cabinet saw and use the rip fence (which is excellent). In regard to the slider, and how it works, Google for information/videos on the Fritz and Franz jig. That alone will sell you on it. :)

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Jim Becker]

I think this is my biggest concern, along with the fact that Sawstop seems very consumer-oriented, while the Euro slider companies aren't so much. At least that's my perception. Dado is nice to have, but I can live without it.
My MiniMax slider supports a normal dado stack...I've never felt the need to use one, although I recently bought a nearly new one from another SMC community member and plan on setting up an insert to use it in my copious free time.

[Warren Lake]

used dadoes in saws many times, can you use the newer adjustable width insert heads in them instead of old style dadoes and do they work any better. Id assume cross cutting ply they should be cleaner.

[Jim Andrew]

I have the Hammer K3 winner, 79" stroke, and now would probably buy the 49" stroke saw, as I can not cut a full length sheet on the sliding table, and use the rip fence for long cuts, and 49" will crosscut a full sheet. What I really like is using the slider to crosscut panels. A year ago I made a bunch of blocks for my grandkids, and glued up a bunch of scrap wood, was able to set the rip fence, square up the strips and then use the rip fence as a stop so could cut the blocks all 3 ways, width, thickness, and length without changing the fence, and the blocks are able to be stacked no matter which direction and they match. I did pull the fence back so the blocks when crosscut did not catch between blade and fence.

[Frank Drew]

Definitely a slider.
The capacity, capability and accuracy is far better than a cabinet safe, not to mention the improved safety......Rod.

What Rod and others have said; for speed, accuracy and efficiency a slider absolutely makes sense for a professional shop, but if a non-professional has the money and space it will make life so much easier. N.b.: A smaller slider, suitable for crosscutting sheet goods, needs more left to right room than front to back.

[Andrew Seemann]

Cabinet saw for me. I don't have the space or funds for anything more anytime soon. While I could physically fit one in my shop, I'm not willing to surrender what I would have to give up to fit it in.

[Chris Parks]

The largest number of TS injuries is from kick back and Saw Stop haven't worked out how to eliminate that yet. Used with an F&F jig the slider eliminates hand/blade injuries and also eliminates kick back. I use the slider to cut solid wood and it is a rare day I have to use the rip fence for its primary purpose and mine is only a short stroke machine. I don't think the learning curve is all that steep TBH as there is a large amount of video material now available and Hammer is doing a series of project videos which are good to watch. I have yet to hear someone who regretted buying a European slider or even an Asian copy of one.

[Brian Nguyen]

This is like asking if you should buy a Lexus or a Lambo to drive to work. Both will get you to the office, but the Lambo will get you the attention from the hot chicks in the convertibles.
Or in the table saw's case... the Hammer C3 will get you the wolf whistles from your neighbor Doris ;)




What do you think? Is a slider more than shop jewelry for a hobbyist, or should I look to myself for improvement rather than my tools? :)

[Mike Wilkins]

If space is a consideration, the short stoke sliders do not take up any more space than a standard cabinet saw (ask Mr. Sheridan). With a slider you can forget about the home-made sleds, repeatable cross cutting to length is a breeze with a flip stop and they are, in my opinion, safer machines.
As for dadoes; some of the sliders can accommodate them, but if not, a router is still a better bet for groovy situations.

[Patrick Kane]

This is a toughie, and one im securely perched on the fence about. I have both types of saws in my shop, and if i could only have one, i dont know that i would pick the felder over the unisaw. Its tough, because i use them for completely different operations, but I made a lot of stuff with a TS75, kapex, and unisaw prior to buying the KF700. I cant get over how awkward it is to rip things with the felder. With an 80" stroke, it isnt long enough to do 50-60% of what i consistently rip. And with a stroke over 49", you have to deal with the added footprint that makes it impossible to comfortably rip traditionally. I did it a few times when i got the saw to get a feel for if i could sell the unisaw, and it was enormously uncomfortable, inefficient, and mildly unsafe. I cut down the rails of my unisaw to 36" and it doesnt have an overly large footprint. For me, it is worth having it take up space to use as a rip and dado saw. My felder can accept a dado blade, but i dont feel like spending $1000 for the felder adjustable slot cutter. Even going the forrest route and having the bore and pins drilled isnt really worth it.

Its a joy to work with a slider on numerous applications, but mine also has a few shortcomings that would really drive me nuts if i had to deal with them. I guess its the same as using a cabinet saw to crosscut an 8' board. That would suck. The same goes for trying to rip long and skinny stuff on my slider. I havent used a short stroke slider, but i imagine that would be an excellent one-stop-shop of a saw.

[David Kumm]

I've got sliders from 18" to 120" and 80" is my least favorite size. If space is a problem there is no downside to a 49" slider if the sliding table sub frame doesn't stick out in front of the saw. Much of my cabinet work needs less than a 39" stroke after the initial breakdown so my favorite short stroke saws are that size. If you intend to scrosscut a lot of ply, you need an outrigger and a saw heavy enough to handle the weight but a short stroke saw still beats a cabinet saw in my world. Dave

[Mike Kreinhop]

I wanted a cabinet saw for my shop, but my choices were limited to contractor saws or sliders, as cabinet saws are not available here. I chose the Minimax SC2 Classic because it was available without the punishing lead time of a Hammer K3, was small enough that the disassembled pieces it would fit down the twists and turns of the stairs to my basement shop, the pieces could be moved with two people, and the final assembly and commissioning was included in the purchase price. I've used cabinet saws, so I'm very familiar with them, but now I won't part with my slider. I still rip full sheets in my garage because my shop is too small for a full sheet to pass by the blade, but I can crosscut full sheets with no problem.

[Osvaldo Cristo]

If you can afford the cost and space for a slider, get a slider.

I don't care for sliders, but if I could only have one saw, I would have a slider

Fully agree.

You do not need it. Period. I have a friend making fine furniture using a track saw!

But if you can afford the cost and space for a slider, why not? I would love to have one!

All the best.

[Jesse Brown]

Is the Minimax sc2 comparable to the Hammer saws?

[Chris Parks]

Yes it is but consider local service support when comparing them. Having said that they are fairly simple machines that rarely have problems.

[Mark Paavola]

If you have the room and the budget I would get a slider. A few months ago I purchased a Hammer K3. I was concerned if it would be a good choice. After using it and getting used to the differences from a cabinet saw I feel I made a good choice. Fritz and Franz is your friend. I was able to keep my cabinet saw for other things which I do not know what that is yet. I do have a dado blade for the cabinet saw. Felders is very expensive. I am also a hobbyist.

Mark

[Rich Engelhardt]

If you can afford the cost and space for a slider, get a slider.

I don't care for sliders, but if I could only have one saw, I would have a slider
LOL! That sounds exactly like me - - with regards to the .357 Magnum!


As far as the OP ---- a lot of what you want the slider for is very possible & easy to do with a good track saw. well - other than the router stuff.

[Mike Kreinhop]

Is the Minimax sc2 comparable to the Hammer saws?

I used a Hammer K3 once, and I liked it. As Chris stated, buy what can be supported in your area. For me, the SC2 was the best choice because the stocking distributor is 25 kilometers away, most parts are readily available, and those that must be ordered are available within two days. Also, the SCM commissioning technician lives 10 km away and drives past my house every day on his way to and from work.

When I was involved in photography, I was frequently asked for recommendations between Nikon and Canon (I used Nikon). My answer was always the same: Both are good, they have their differences, and you can't go wrong with either choice. Buy what your friends are using, so you will have a relevant knowledge base and a larger pool of lenses and accessories to share and test before buying.

[Julie Moriarty]

My contractor saw is a nice saw, but it has a few shortcomings that bug me:

It won't cut clean bevels. I once spent an entire Saturday trying to shim it before convincing myself that it's a design limitation
Cross-cutting panels can be clumsy
I find it to be underpowered sometimes
I don't care for the right tilt
I made a dust panel for the back, but I have to remove it whenever I want to tilt the blade


I can empathize, Jesse. I overcame breaking down sheet good problems with a track saw. Then I take the smaller pieces to the TS for a cleaner edge. I have also used the track saw for bevel rips. I can't remember the last time I tilted the blade on my TS. It's primarily a 90 degree ripping tool with crosscuts most often done using the attached sliding table.

Bequeath me with the space and money to replace my TS and I wouldn't hesitate for a minute in making that decision - a slider for sure. I have adopted the strange habit of dealing with frustration toward my power tools by going online and watching videos of real woodworking machines. And I've seen a lot of them. The slider looks like one of those machines that make you want to say, "What took you so long?"

[Joe Jensen]

There is a Felder Owners Group forum that is pretty active. You may be able to post there and find someone nearby who would let you try their saw to see. I started when I was in Junior high on my dad's ancient Sears 10" contractors saw. When I graduated from college I bought myself a 1970s Unisaw with a Biesemeyer fence. In 1990 I upgraded to a PM66. In 2005 I upgraded again to a SawStop ICS. in 2009 I upgraded to a Felder KF700SP. There is a learning curve, it's really learning how to rely on clamping the part to the slider instead of relying on the fence. I still use the fence to rip some but mostly I use jigs that enable me to use the slider for ripping too. The quality of cut when you clamp a part to the slider is really hard to believe.

[Rod Sheridan]

The slider looks like one of those machines that make you want to say, "What took you so long?"

My exact words after having mine for a month.

My new theory on expensive purchases, is that the sooner I purchase them, the less expensive they become over my lifetime. Not to mention I get to use them more, reducing the "per project" cost..............Rod.

[David Kumm]

There is a nice looking MM SC3W on Woodweb. 5.5' slider with scoring. Dave

[Greg Parrish]

There is a nice looking MM SC3W on Woodweb. 5.5' slider with scoring. Dave

Wish I were setup and ready for it. Would be all over that. Unfortunately for me I’ll have to sell my PM66 setup one day first or nowhere to put the slider until it’s gone. That looks like a nice saw at about half price.

[Chris Parks]

There is a Felder Owners Group forum that is pretty active. You may be able to post there and find someone nearby who would let you try their saw to see.

Joe, when is this group going to join the 1st century? The format is so clunky I have given up on it twice and I can't see there being a third time.

[mark mcfarlane]

+1 for the happy slider converts.

I have an 8 footer. It took a few days to get the slider set up well, but now I can just drop an 8'*4' sheetgood onto the slider and in a few seconds be cutting to within a fraction of a mm. My plywood storage rack is conveniently at the end of the slider's stroke, so I just slide out a sheet, rotate it down onto the outrigger, and cut.

The long slider is also awesome for cutting a straight glue-able edge joint on solid stock. I just wish I had a 10 footer because most of my solid stock comes in at 10' (which is also the dimension of my lumber storage). I have to cross cut 10' solid stock before I can 'edge joint' it on the slider. Determining where to cross cut is a PITA when dealing with multiple parts of different lengths. So I wish I bought a 10 footer.

It is much faster to edge joint rough lumber on a slider compared to a jointer. Just clamp it down and run it through the slider once.



As others have mentioned, build a good Fritz and Franz jig.
Clamps are your friend, so clamp to the slider to ensure amazingly smooth and straight cuts. One clamp at each end for long boards.
It may take some time to determine your strategy for different kinds of cuts (as with any saw), but once you figure out a cut strategy its in your pocket forever.


Regarding space requirements, I've found the limiting factor to be the size of wood I want to cut, not the format of the saw. If you want to rip 8' sheet goods you need 8 feet in front of and behind the blade, regardless of whether you have a slider or a cabinet saw.

Also, although a slider with an outrigger uses more space to the left of the blade than a cabinet saw, it typically doesn't need as much space to the right of the blade. You normally have most of your wood to the left of the blade on a slider, which is why you sometime see people put the right side of their slider against a wall. So width-wise, sliders and cabinet saws are similar, just the working space is to the left of the blade on a left-sided slider. Again, the real limit depends on the size of wood you want to process without moving equipment around.

FWIW, my Minimax outrigger can be removed in about 1 minute, and it takes about 2 minutes to reinstall it. I have only removed it once since I purchased it a year ago, but it can be done if one is space constrained on the left side of the saw.

[lowell holmes]

I have a plywood sled that rides in the right side groove on my 10" Delta table saw. It works as a slider and does a great
job. Make one and try it out. You will be pleased.

[Jim Becker]

I have a plywood sled that rides in the right side groove on my 10" Delta table saw. It works as a slider and does a great
job. Make one and try it out. You will be pleased.

Lowell, a sled arrangement like that is great for certain tasks, but honestly, it's not the same thing as a machine built as a slider from the ground up nor can it duplicate all of the things that true sliders do well.

[Chris Parks]

Wish I were setup and ready for it. Would be all over that. Unfortunately for me I’ll have to sell my PM66 setup one day first or nowhere to put the slider until it’s gone. That looks like a nice saw at about half price.

Buy it now and I am sure you could find someone here who would store it for you for a couple of years.

[Greg Parrish]

Buy it now and I am sure you could find someone here who would store it for you for a couple of years.

I bet. LOL. :)

[Albert Lee]

My exact words after having mine for a month.

My new theory on expensive purchases, is that the sooner I purchase them, the less expensive they become over my lifetime. Not to mention I get to use them more, reducing the "per project" cost..............Rod.

my thinking exactly... Before I bought my Felder AD951, I had these panel glue ups which I have to use my 1100mm wide belt sander to sand, it would take a lot of passes and need a lot of time. but after I bought the Felder. I make the glue ups to about 500mm, run them through the Felder and then just domino and glue them on my panel press. I only need 1 pass through the sander.

Should have bought the AD951 years ago. the 510mm jointing capacity is a bliss when you need it... and I always need it.

[Carl Beckett]

All right, I will chime in as 'not all the way there on the sliders'. As with most things, how you use things, and tool philosophy plays into so some context for me:

I am a hobby user. Make a variety of things including house projects (not just furniture, picture frames but also siding, shed, etc).
For years I had various forms of cabinet saws
2 to 3 years ago I switched to a Minimax CU300 combo machine. This is a 5.5 ft slider
Some of my comments pertain to the combo machine, not the sliding TS specifically
Also had an accident using a dado on a cabinet saw (still have all my digits, but there was some damage done)
So the safety aspect does play into for me. I like the sawstop concept (not joining the endless debate), and I like 'some' of the safety features of the slider.

I AM STILL VERY MUCH ON THE LEARNING CURVE. So there are ways to do all these things, I just need to learn them. But that takes time away from doing projects and given I have limited time to spend on the hobby, I like to be efficient when shop time presents itself.

The slider fits in my shop. But the sliding table takes up more floor space, and I find myself putting the table on and off more than I would like. It doesnt 'store' well, so usually just sits on top of the saw when off (and has a leg that makes this cumbersome). It is not light, somewhat awkward to handle, and is just a bit of a pain if you have to take it on and off a lot. Wish I had a place to hang it when not on, but I dont.

On the combo machine, in order to use the J/P, the table saw rip fence has to come off. This irks me. (again combo specific).

With the table on, I love the flip stops and repeating cross cuts. Very efficient and repeatable. But I had a nice home made sliding cross cut sled on my cabinet saw that had this feature.

The slider is hands down better for squaring panels or sheet goods.

The CU300 fence is not the greatest in terms of smoothness of operation and repeat ability. I had gotten to the point where I could trust the measuring rule on the cabinet fence, but not there on the MM

Dado - I have used the MM with a dado. The concern I have is that I still havent made zero clearance inserts for this. In fact lack of this was in part what caused my injury. I think it is possible to make them, but I think it will be aluminum and require countersunk screws, etc. This is a project to be done.

In general your fixtures will be obsolete.

A handful of times I have used the slider with a supporting sled to handle smaller pieces, tapers, custom fixture, etc. This puts the workpiece higher than the table near the blade area. Seems to lose precision (at least the way I am doing it)

I have the slider fence in front, and push the workpiece against the fence from behind. Opposite what I do on the cabinet saw. This works fine, but when making a precision cut to a mark, I like to lean over the saw with it off and position the board to the mark right at the blade tooth. This is a stretch on the slider

I used to make tenons with a tenoning jig on the tablesaw. This jig doesnt work on the slider. I now make tenons other ways (which I dont like as well, but will get there, these days I just cut them by hand)

I had an incra precision miter on the cabinet saw. The slider fence has no indexing for angles, so repeat angle cuts are not as easy to do. Plus I would swap to the right miter slot often (things like picture frame corners). Cant do this on the slider.

The scoring blade on the MM is tough to raise up and down. Just a poor mechanism imo. Then the belt came off on me, and I havent put it back on. When it was working it DID help reduce tearout. But I am thinking of trying the track saw approach to sheet goods.

Dust collection is a wash between them.

Most of this is likely something I havent learned how to do yet. But lack of knowledge is real, so worth considering (heck if I were more skilled I would do more with hand tools, which is happening over the years).

Net net.... I am not ready to give up the slider yet. Am going to continue to build my experience with it. But, after 3 years, cannot say it is a slam dunk in terms of preference over the table saw - I was pretty efficient with the cabinet saw! Could easily switch back and not lose any sleep.

So if you have always 'yearned' to try a slider, try it! 3 years into the experiment for myself and I dont think I would miss it to switch back to the cabinet saw.

(aiyai yai that got long, my apologies just trying to share some specifics to make it more useful)

[Chris Parks]

Carl, just to clear up something when you say table do you mean the outrigger that attaches to the sliding table?

Have you made and used a Fritz & Franz jig?

[Carl Beckett]

Carl, just to clear up something when you say table do you mean the outrigger that attaches to the sliding table?

Yes.


Have you made and used a Fritz & Franz jig?

Yes, kinda, but I need a better one.

[Brian W Evans]

If you're using the fence to rip, the slide part really doesn't matter though.

I disagree. If you use a Fritz und Franz jig in conjunction with the fence, you're not standing behind the piece and you don't need push sticks. No danger to you from kickback or hands getting too close to the blade. Also, I can rip a board into thin strips much faster this way on my slider than I could have on a cabinet saw.

There may be some situations where the cabinet saw would be faster - like one-off operations where you just set the fence and go - but the slider is only slightly slower in those situations.

For the OP, here are a couple of slider videos you should watch:

https://youtu.be/L8JR_fD-dMI

https://youtu.be/Q0PyFjtSHrE

The second one is from a guy (SMC member, I think) who has numerous introductory videos about how to use a slider. You would do well to check out his channel.

Good luck with your decision.

[mark mcfarlane]

A few thoughts:


...The slider fits in my shop. But the sliding table takes up more floor space, and I find myself putting the table on and off more than I would like. It doesnt 'store' well, so usually just sits on top of the saw when off (and has a leg that makes this cumbersome). It is not light, somewhat awkward to handle, and is just a bit of a pain if you have to take it on and off a lot. Wish I had a place to hang it when not on, but I don't...

The best outrigger storage I have seen is to hang it against a wall with either the leg at the ceiling, or the leg at the floor. It would take some strength to lift a CU300 outrigger over your head. With a little creativity and a jig saw the outrigger 'leg' could slide under a cabinet, with the outrigger perpendicular to a wall. Then it would only take up a few inches of wall space. Another option might be to build a cart that holds the outrigger in its normal orientation, and the cat could double duty as a materials cart, or as a place to hold all your other combi machine gadgets, measuring devices,...


On the combo machine, in order to use the J/P, the table saw rip fence has to come off. This irks me. (again combo specific).

Yep. At a minimum you can just disconnect the fence (one lever) and leave it in place to the right of the blade. I have the Euro jointer guard, and that does require removing the TS fence rail in order to flip the Euro guard out of the way on the rare occasion I need a lot of space to the right of the blade, which is an annoyance, but only takes a minute.


The CU300 fence is not the greatest in terms of smoothness of operation and repeat ability. I had gotten to the point where I could trust the measuring rule on the cabinet fence, but not there on the MM

Also an annoyance. I'm thinking a $100 Wixey DRO for the fence would fix that problem. Mounting a plastic sight on the bottom of the fence mount would allow you to dial in the right side CU300 fence accurately, but that fence is so heavy that the plastic probably wouldn't survive the first hard bump.


I have the slider fence in front, and push the workpiece against the fence from behind. Opposite what I do on the cabinet saw. This works fine, but when making a precision cut to a mark, I like to lean over the saw with it off and position the board to the mark right at the blade tooth. This is a stretch on the slider

I built a flat jig out of 1/2" MDF with a runner that drops into the slider's groove. Cut the MDF on the first pass. Now I have a reference (MDF edge) of exactly where the blade will cut something. Same thing on the Fritz and Franz jig. Make it 'too wide', then cut it. Now the right edge of the Fritz and Franz jig is exactly where the cut will be.


The scoring blade on the MM is tough to raise up and down. Just a poor mechanism imo.

Yep, I agree.

There are other annoyances of the MM CU300 combo machine, like having to remove the shaper head to make almost any kind of saw cut.... It takes a few minutes to switch some functions. In retrospect, for me, I wish I had bought 3 seperate machines: saw, J/P, shaper. The cost would have been about double for the machines, then a bunch more for extra ductwork.

[Carl Beckett]

Feel free to delete if this is progressing too far off topic, but I find that specific details are helpful in these discussions.


I disagree. If you use a Fritz und Franz jig in conjunction with the fence, you're not standing behind the piece and you don't need push sticks.


Lets say I have a relatively wide board (6-8"), 18" long, and I want to rip 4 or 5 strips off (1/2" to 1" strips). I want all the strips to be the same width. (roughing in picture frame strips as example). So need some way to index the width of the strip. And I want the edges parallel.

My first thought is to clamp it in the FF jig, set the fence with a spacer block to touch off. Then run through sliding the table. But the FF jig clamps the end of the board, so as the stock becomes narrower there is risk of it not being parallel any more. And less area to hold it.

I guess my current learning curve would be to set the fence same as the cabinet saw, then just push it through (sliding the table). Since the board is pushed with the table, and then between the fence and blade, once the strip cuts off the blade will send it back at you (if you are standing in front of the saw, but you arent... still it shoots out). Yes I am not behind it. But any time wood is flying unconstrained imo is a safety concern (not to mention dinging up the piece you are cutting)

Or just as likely I would just use the fence and a push stick the same as I would on a cabinet saw.

What am I doing wrong?

[Martin Wasner]

I disagree.

How small can you go clamping to the slider?

[Carl Beckett]

I built a flat jig out of 1/2" MDF with a runner that drops into the slider's groove. Cut the MDF on the first pass. Now I have a reference (MDF edge) of exactly where the blade will cut something.


Yes, this is high on my list to do. Still not a fan of raising the workpiece off the table surface (once the cut is made the cutoff drops down). One aspect I liked about the sliding crosscut table on the cabinet saw is that the cutoff doesnt move.

Hmm... now that I think about it the same design could be used on the slider, the interim sled going all the way to the cutoff side of the blade.

I am not advocating one way or another and have no bone in this argument of which is 'better'. Simply offering some of my personal observations (limited by lack of knowledge and skill, conceded).

[Chris Parks]

I have never clamped anything to the slider using the F&F jig, to me the F&F jig is the clamp and does the job well. I also removed the full length rip fence and use a very short length (200mm long) attached to the rip fence head as the measuring stop. My comments are from using a K3 Hammer.

[Chris Parks]

A few thoughts:



I built a flat jig out of 1/2" MDF with a runner that drops into the slider's groove. Cut the MDF on the first pass. Now I have a reference (MDF edge) of exactly where the blade will cut something. Same thing on the Fritz and Franz jig. Make it 'too wide', then cut it. Now the right edge of the Fritz and Franz jig is exactly where the cut will be.

My brain refuses to visualise that, can you expand a bit on it. Thanks.

[mark mcfarlane]

My brain refuses to visualise that, can you expand a bit on it. Thanks.

392733

Hi Chris. I made this yesterday to trim up some shaker doors.

I wanted to trim off the over-length rails and just skim the stiles so I'd have a nice door edge. The right edge of the MDF is the cut line, so I just slid the doors to the right until the stiles were overhanging a few thousands of an inch, then did the opposite side, sing a stop to ensure each door is exactly the same size as its partner.

[Brian W Evans]

Lets say I have a relatively wide board (6-8"), 18" long, and I want to rip 4 or 5 strips off (1/2" to 1" strips). I want all the strips to be the same width. (roughing in picture frame strips as example). So need some way to index the width of the strip. And I want the edges parallel.

My first thought is to clamp it in the FF jig, set the fence with a spacer block to touch off. Then run through sliding the table. But the FF jig clamps the end of the board, so as the stock becomes narrower there is risk of it not being parallel any more. And less area to hold it.

I guess my current learning curve would be to set the fence same as the cabinet saw, then just push it through (sliding the table). Since the board is pushed with the table, and then between the fence and blade, once the strip cuts off the blade will send it back at you (if you are standing in front of the saw, but you arent... still it shoots out). Yes I am not behind it. But any time wood is flying unconstrained imo is a safety concern (not to mention dinging up the piece you are cutting)

Or just as likely I would just use the fence and a push stick the same as I would on a cabinet saw.

What am I doing wrong?


What you're describing would work on a slider, but this is where learning new methods of work comes in.

First, the fence on a slider moves forward and back, so instead of using a spacer block just pull the fence back to the front of the blade. Since there is no fence to keep the cutoff piece in contact with the blade, I don't see how you'd have kickback.

Second, you'd be surprised how little material you need captured in the F&F jig to keep things lined up. The fence will keep everything in line until the cut starts, at which point the blade will help keep everything lined up. The slider and the jig are moving smoothly parallel to the blade as well, so there is not much opportunity for the workpiece to get off track. Unless I'm cutting something unusually long or gnarly, 1/4" of material captured in the jig keeps things secure.


How small can you go clamping to the slider?

Not sure what you mean by this, but ripping a 1/2" wide piece in half would be fine, depending on how long and flexible the piece is. The jig is pushing the piece through the blade, so it needs the workpiece to be rigid. If you have a wide workpiece, you can rip paper-thin strips until you get down to your last 1/4" or so.

Watch about 4 minutes of this video, starting at 2:30. He shows the exact procedure I am describing.

https://youtu.be/Q0PyFjtSHrE?t=2m31s

[Martin Wasner]

1/4" of material captured in the jig keeps things secure.


That's the info I was looking for.

[mark mcfarlane]

Not sure what you mean by this, but ripping a 1/2" wide piece in half would be fine, depending on how long and flexible the piece is. The jig is pushing the piece through the blade, so it needs the workpiece to be rigid. If you have a wide workpiece, you can rip paper-thin strips until you get down to your last 1/4" or so.


I underlined the segment above for emphasis. For the 18" example, 1/4" in the F&F jaws will hold it. For a 6' long piece of yellow pine you are going to need more in the F&F jig. Pushing the back end of the jig would likely cause a 6' long 1/4" piece of pine to flex.

[Jesse Brown]

Thanks to everyone for the advice here. I ordered a slider last week. Hopefully I see it before 2019 :)

[Jim Becker]

Congrats on your order, Jesse! There are a whole bunch of us here who use Euro sliders, so once yours arrives, be sure to check both previous threads and start your own with any questions, etc.

[Warren Lake]

thats a good video for someone like me and many making a living at this using cabinet saws to understand how its approached with the slider and jigs, seeing the rip fence there as his set for a stop and parallel up is good and I wondered about that. It falls apart on longer material though t some length. Im fine in how ive always done it either through with a push stick or cut in one end flip and lift off.

[Joe Jensen]

Joe, when is this group going to join the 1st century? The format is so clunky I have given up on it twice and I can't see there being a third time.

Chris, the format is awful. I have it set to send me emails for all posts (like 2-10 a day) and I have them auto moved to a folder in email. I do all reading and posting via email. The forum is horrible but the content from the small group of members is awesome...joe

[John Baum]

In 1970, at age 30, with a limited budget, I bought a 10" Craftsman table saw. I was never happy with the fence guided rip cuts it gave me. Adjusting the blade to cut bevels involved lifting the motor with one hand while turning the tilt wheel with the other. Also, the bearing point for this mechanism was set in a thin sheet metal side of the saw case. That always contributed to vibration of the arbor. Even after I reinforced it with 1/4" steel plate it was not as stable as I would have liked. Today I seldom use it for anything.

A cabinetmaker friend taught me about jig built sleds with cleats for cutting mitered cuts on short pieces. I forget who showed me the solution I now use my Bosch worm-drive circular saw for all my rip cuts. Today I use a chop saw for cross cuts.

I made my go-to setup for straight rip cuts to fit a 36" x 48" x 1" plywood table on heavy saw horses in the driveway in front of the 'garage' shop (storage place.) I started with a 15" x 36" x 0.5 " sheet of plywood and a 2.5" x 36" x 0.5" strip of plywood, drilled at intervals to accept 7/8" flat head wood screws. I set the strip inboard of the edge of the sheet at slightly more than the blade to shoe edge on the circular saw and screwed it down. Then I ripped the edge using the screwed down strip as a guide. I clamped the resulting jig on top of the work-piece so that the jig edge aligned with where I wanted to cut. It cut a straight line, right where I'd marked it. I've used the same principle to rip 4' x 8' x ~1/4" birch faced plywood sheets. I use a 60 tooth Freud Diablo plywood blade and put the good face down. I've even used the jig to cleanly cut thin translucent plastic diffuser panels for light fixtures. In every case it is important to set the depth of cut so that the blade does not penetrate the work-piece excessively. With plywood 0.5 " works; with the plastic less is better and results in clean cuts with no chipped edges.

Eventually I find that the fence needs to be reset. How frequently depends on the care I take in cutting and on how critical the cut accuracy needs to be. Clearly it is a simple task to establish a new edge.

I've tried this approach with beveled cuts. It is hard to keep an even pressure on the saw both down and against the fence while making the cut. Any slight change results in a curve or jog in the cut. Also, the cut edge on the jig is no longer as easy to align as a guide for setting up the jig. You also need a separate jig for every angle. I use my home rigged router table and an angled bit when I must have a bevel. Again, this jig is remarkably accurate if the jig edge and depth are carefully set and the marks are where you really want to cut.

In response to Jesse on 'formatting' in the forum, I try to remember that it is wisest to compose a post in Word , then copy and paste it into the forum. Even with the AutoSave feature it is way too easy to discover that you've been logged out while tweaking your text and that you may not be able to get back to it once you are again logged in.

John

[Jim Becker]

In response to Jesse on 'formatting' I try to remember that it is wisest to compose a post in Word , then copy and paste it into the forum. Even with the AutoSave feature it is way too easy to discover that you've been logged out while tweaking your text and that you may not be able to get back to it once you are again logged in.



FYI, in case it wasn't clear, the "formatting complaint" is aimed at the Felder (and MiniMax) "forums" on Yahoo, not here. But yes, composing larger posts off-line isn't a horrible idea. :)

We now return you to our regularly scheduled slider thread. :)

[hugh lonner]

There is a Felder Owners Group forum that is pretty active...


Can anyone provide a link to those forums ? I noticed a reference to it in a recent thread as well as a request for a link (perhaps this one) but couldn't find it via google (forgive me if a link is in this thread as i did look through the thread for that link and dind't see it, but there is a chance I missed it). I'd love to be able to check it out even if it has bad formatting. Thanks.

PS I was pretty torn making this very choice this summer and still don't know if i made the right choice. I saw quite a few pros and cons each way, but having made a choice I should probably avoid threads like this! (If money, space, and reality were no object I'd opt for a slider with a super long throw allowing me to edge joint even long boards on the tablesaw and crosscut super accurately, but with sawstop type technology for when my kids want to use the saw for one added layer of protection - fully recognizing that that technology alone doesn't make a saw safe - sadly such a saw doesn't exist, space is indeed tight for me in the shop, and like virtually everyone out there, cost does have an impact on my choices).

[Chris Parks]

It is a Yahoo email group and not a forum, I find it hard to get along with but try it and see for yourself, you may like it. There was an attempt to start a forum some years ago but it failed for some reason.

[hugh lonner]

Thanks, that explains why I couldn't find it via search. I'll try to check it out (although I've never joined a Yahoo email group before).

[Rod Sheridan]

Can anyone provide a link to those forums ? I noticed a reference to it in a recent thread as well as a request for a link (perhaps this one) but couldn't find it via google (forgive me if a link is in this thread as i did look through the thread for that link and dind't see it, but there is a chance I missed it). I'd love to be able to check it out even if it has bad formatting. Thanks.

PS I was pretty torn making this very choice this summer and still don't know if i made the right choice. I saw quite a few pros and cons each way, but having made a choice I should probably avoid threads like this! (If money, space, and reality were no object I'd opt for a slider with a super long throw allowing me to edge joint even long boards on the tablesaw and crosscut super accurately, but with sawstop type technology for when my kids want to use the saw for one added layer of protection - fully recognizing that that technology alone doesn't make a saw safe - sadly such a saw doesn't exist, space is indeed tight for me in the shop, and like virtually everyone out there, cost does have an impact on my choices).


Hi, try this link.


felder-woodworking-owner@yahoogroups.com

You'll have to be approved for membership, which isn't an issue, it's very easy............Rod.

[Derek Cohen]

I've looked at the site a few times over the course of a year. There appears to be hardly any posting done ... perhaps one or two posts in several months, if at all.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[mark mcfarlane]

I've looked at the site a few times over the course of a year. There appears to be hardly any posting done ... perhaps one or two posts in several months, if at all.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Derek, if you are talking about the Felder group on Yahoo, I think you are looking at the wrong one. I seem to remember there may have been a legacy Feeder group that isn't used any more (or maybe I don't remember correctly). Anyway, there are maybe 50-70 posts per week on the active Feeder group. The Minimax group on Yahoo, in contrast, rarely seems to have any posts.

[Derek Cohen]

Mark, do you have an address?

The one I have is this: https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/FelderUsers/info

This is the message history for the past 16 years ...

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Regards from Perth

Derek

[mark mcfarlane]

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/felder-woodworking/info

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[Jesse Brown]

The saw showed up yesterday, in case someone is curious how long something like that takes--about five months.

403024

[Carl Beckett]

The saw showed up yesterday, in case someone is curious how long something like that takes--about five months.

403024

All I see is some wood strips with plastic wrapped around it.... :D

[Jim Becker]

Congrats, Jesse! I watched a video the other day of someone receiving and unpacking, assembling their new Felder saw.

Here it is in case you want to see it:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FWGaJQ1jajM

[Jesse Brown]

Thanks, I got a Hammer B3 since I'm just a garage hobbiest, but I'll check the video out anyways. The crate was actually easy to unpack, even by myself. I rented a pallet jack to move it into the garage, but used a floor jack and the mobility kit for everything else. The delivery guy was grumpy (maybe just a bad day?), but everything was in good shape, and he brightened up when I gave him some cash.

[brent stanley]

Wow, you're going to love that! Congrats!

B

[Ray Newman]

Jim Becker: thanks for that video link. Definitely a very impressive machine.

Jesse brown: good luck with your Hammer.

[Jesse Brown]

It took a few hours to get things put together, but it wasn't hard, and I didn't run into any problems. I'll probably just use it for a while before I get too crazy with fine-tuning stuff. Besides, I was expecting my old saw to sit around for weeks or months, but instead it sold within a couple hours, so I haven't had a saw for months now, and the wife project backlog is huge :P

403206

[Jim Becker]

Looks great, Jesse! You're going to enjoy having that slider in your shop. There will be a few things different as has been mentioned many times here at SMC, but you'll adapt soon enough and enjoy the benefits, too. Repeatable precious is amazing on these things and you're almost never in the "line of fire" while cutting, too. Congrats!

Now go make your "primary customer" happy... :) :D

[Andrew V Smith]

Well... I stumbled across this thread having never really considered a slider and now you guys have me debating it

[Mike Shields]

As a hobbyist, I went from a cabinet saw to a slider combo, then back to a cabinet saw.

My opinion is that your choice of the tool should be based on how you plan to use it. A slider excels with sheet goods (with huge space requirements). Since solid wood is the majority that I work with, a Sawstop PCS is my tool of choice.

[Derek Cohen]

Oh I don't know about that, Mike. It is a personal choice at the end of the day. I went from a contractor saw with crosscut table, used for 20 years, to a choice of SS with crosscut table and the Hammer K3, and decided on the K3 at the end. I have a smaller slider (49") and it is a good compromise for medium-sized furniture. I only work with solid wood. I do not work with sheet goods. I do not do production work, just one-offs. This particular saw is perfect for me. That is not to say that it would suit another.

https://i.postimg.cc/d0Cg7BBN/Ca.jpg
Regards from Perth

Derek

[Mike Shields]

As I said, it was my opinion...

[Günter VögelBerg]

I have the Grizzly 5hp saw with the sliding attachment. I mostly like it, and consider it an improvement over just the cabinet saw, but the build quality is definitely short of the high-end European machines. I have about 4 foot "stroke" for crosscut and it is nice because I can square up a plywood panel on the table saw, which before required the track saw or some other equipment. I have also learned that with the help of a hold-down on the sliding portion of the saw I can make awkward rip cuts accurately without having to use the fence. I recently had to cut very precise 16.5 degree tapers over a 4 foot length and the slider made it easy.

[Derek Cohen]

As I said, it was my opinion...

Mike, my apology if my comment sounded dismissive. That was not intended. I am in agreement, and was attempting to illustrate the other choice. It is a choice, and as always this comes down to personal preferences, not right or wrong.

Havva good weekend.

Regards from Perth

Derek