About that Sawstop

[Warren Wilson]

I have been indulging my woodworking hobby for years now with a DeWalt jobsite saw and with lots of purpose-built jigs, it does an adequate job: tiny table but great pinion-geared fence.

A local supplier has the Sawstop contractors saw on for a good price and I have been pondering moving to the larger, heavier saw and from all I’ve read it is a nice, well-made tool. There are certainly some optional bits that are just not available for the little jobsite saw.

The DeWalt is a direct-drive 15 amp saw nominally rated at 2 HP. The Sawstop is belt-driven and rated at 1.75 HP. Will I really be giving up about 1/8 of the power by moving to the Sawstop? I don’t know enough about how the motors are rated or how the different drive technologies impact the cutting power to understand if I am comparing apples to apples on that hp rating.

Can anyone offer me any insights on this?

[Matt Day]

Check the amp draw on each motor. That will tell you more about the power than hp sometimes.

Also, a cabinet saw takes up the same or less floorium than a contractors saw. If you can afford it, I’d strongly suggest a cabinet saw. Then no more worrying about power.

[Dan Rude]

Unless it is a great deal on the Contractor Sawstop. By the time you add the 36" T-Glide fence to the Contractor version is $1,999.99 with the stamped wings, with the Cast Iron wing set for $270.00, total then is $2,270.00. You are already close to the 1.75 HP Professional Sawstop $2,719.00 with 36" T-Glide fence and Cast Iron wings. These Prices are from CPO outlet with Free Shipping, you do need to add the Lift Gate charge if needed. I got the 3HP Pro with 36"T Glide Fence 3 yrs ago and love it, but you need 240 V power it is $3,149.00 today. Dan

[George Makra]

A quarter HP difference is nothing, what ever saw you get just run a sharp blade and all will be good.

[Stan Calow]

I thought the prices for Sawstop were all set in concrete, and dealers could only haggle on the accessories. If you're getting a good price on the Sawstop itself, good for you, but maybe you'd care to share.

[Nick Decker]

Warren, I followed a similar path myself. Started with a Dewalt jobsite and almost upgraded to the SawStop Contractor. Went with the PCS 1.75 hp and very glad I did. Not saying the Contractor isn't a good saw, only that it's not a cabinet saw.

[glenn bradley]

I also feel that a contractor saw is only an incidental step up from a job site saw. You gain things like an induction motor and more of the standard after-market goodies fit. However, contractor saws come with their own set of compromises that can be very frustrating depending on how you plan to use the saw.

If the fixed pricing model on Saw Stops has changed, that could be a good thing. It is past time that they were considered side by side with similarly priced saws despite the safety features.

It is easy to sneak up the price ladder when looking at upgrading a tool but, my recommendation is to save up for a while and move right to a 3HP cab saw. Even these at the $3k tier are still hobby machines IMHO but, a hobby machine you can use for the rest of your life and hand down.

[Jim Becker]

You really cannot compare the two motors the way you are...quite often universal motors, like the one in that jobsite saw, have their ratings pegged at "the meltdown point", rather than what the actual horsepower is while using it. Induction motors, like those on a contractors' style saw or a cabinet saw, have ratings more reflective of reality.

Dan makes a very good point about being sure to understand what you're getting vs what you might want/need and the real price point for that. If the cost of the contractors' style saw approaches that close to the modest cabinet saw version, no question, I'd opt for the latter as a better long term investment as well as a better all around tool.

[Patrick Kane]

Agreed, throw the number out of the window when dealing with consumer grade stuff. Any belt driven induction motor contractor saw will have loads more power than the dewalt. As a contrary point to the others stated above, i actually think you gain a lot in a contractor saw. I agree with everything they say, and own a cabinet saw myself, but the used market is usually chock full with decent contractor saws. $300 in my market will get you a delta, jet, or powermatic contractor saw with 1.5hp motor and unifence/biesemeyer fence. I started with the same saw you have now, and then spent $250 to buy a delta 34-444 from the mid 90s with a unifence. Great little saw for a couple years until i bought a unisaw. I ran thin kerf blades exclusively, and the power was adequate for most things. Ripping 8/4 hardwood tested it a bit, but i cant say it ever stopped the saw mid cut. I had PALS for it, which helped greatly to align it within a few .001". This is critical, because you will be fidgeting with alignment several times a year, or, atleast i was. It seemed like things would slowly drift a couple thous out over the period of a few months, which got me in the habit of taking a dial indicator to it every other month. Depending on your budget and workflow, a used contractor saw gives you an enormous bang for buck, in my opinion. The only major things you gain with moving up to a cabinet saw are more power and a machine that holds its settings for years. I made a lot of projects on a contractor saw with a good fence system.

Now, throw that all out the window if you want a sawstop for the safety feature. In that case, i agree with everyone else in that you are better off saving for another year to get the right tool first.

[Bill Dufour]

AFAIK fixed pricing is not legal unless the store is factory owned.
Bill D.

[John TenEyck]

AFAIK fixed pricing is not legal unless the store is factory owned.
Bill D.

I'm pretty sure the price of Stihl power tools is fixed, but are sold at independent dealers.

John

[Frank Pratt]

I'm going to agree with @Glen Bradley that the contractor saw is actually a huge upgrade from a job site saw. Certainly a bigger step up than going from a contractor to a cabinet. But the additional step up to the cabinets saw is very much worth the added cost. A cabinet saw is just that much nicer to use, along with other benefits like better dust collection & smaller footprint.

[Nick Decker]

I'm pretty sure the price of Stihl power tools is fixed, but are sold at independent dealers.

John

The list goes way beyond SawStop and Stihl...

[glenn bradley]

I'm going to agree with @Glen Bradley that the contractor saw is actually a huge upgrade from a job site saw. Certainly a bigger step up than going from a contractor to a cabinet. But the additional step up to the cabinets saw is very much worth the added cost. A cabinet saw is just that much nicer to use, along with other benefits like better dust collection & smaller footprint.

Sorry, I think you misread my statement. "I also feel that a contractor saw is only an incidental step up from a job site saw."

With the alignment problems overall, and specifically with bevel cuts, the contractor saw can be quite painful. As a qualifier, if 99% of what you do is with the blade at 90 degrees to the table, you can get the saw aligned and leave it there and use it with very good success. The weaknesses start to show only if you make more liberal use of all that a tablesaw can do for you.

I ran a contractor saw (with about $300 of after market stuff thrown at it) for years with good success. As my needs grew, the need for a saw that can cut an accurate bevel and be returned to 90 degrees repeatedly became important to me. Until I needed those things, I was fine. Today, there are things I still do not need so buying a tool that does "more" would add no value for me.

I am happy with an 8" jointer. Someone else wishes his 12" jointer was a 16" but, I don't have that need. We are all different (thank goodness) and our satisfaction with a tool is tied to what we do and how we do it ;-)

[Warren Wilson]

Thank you for your thoughts on this. I will have a look at the specs for amperage and try to control my appetite for novelty. I actually do my woodworking under my carport roof and need to move the saw around regularly, so portability is a requirement and the contractor’s model seemed to offer a good compromise.

As far as pricing — I am looking at an individual unit that has been collecting dust in the store (actually it now has some Festool pieces covering the table that I had to move around to see the price tag). The dealer has lost interest in dealing with Sawstop and just wants the unit gone so he has reduced it to $1400.

[Michelle Rich]

I have used a contractor saw for 32 yrs. I make the vast majority of my living from woodworking. I make furniture, smaller type stuff, and turnings. Would I like a 3hsp saw..sure. but I cannot say that the 1986 delta has ever let me down. The 2hsp rating is ridiculous for your dewalt 120v saw. It cannot really be that ..so the contractor may be more power as it will have more "torque" behind it ... If you have the cash, sure, why not? But if you are a weekend warrior that contractor SS would be a terrific new tool,, keep having fun in your shop.

[Nick Decker]

Warren, you mentioned a lot of "purpose-built jigs." Again, I hear you. Whether you opt for a contractor or cabinet saw, you'll immediately appreciate a well-machined cast iron top. Real estate aside, jigs that ride in the miter slot are much happier when that slot is the same width throughout. My old Dewalt was bad in that regard; the two ends of the slot were tighter than the middle. I think it had to do with whatever the coating was on the aluminum, but no amount of sanding/filing ever got it consistent.

[Jerome Stanek]

Festool also has one price for their tools. Stihl sells only through authorized dealers that have a certified repair person on site.

[Van Huskey]

You really cannot compare the two motors the way you are...quite often universal motors, like the one in that jobsite saw, have their ratings pegged at "the meltdown point", rather than what the actual horsepower is while using it. Induction motors, like those on a contractors' style saw or a cabinet saw, have ratings more reflective of reality.



Exactly, most universal motor machines are rated "creatively" and many of the worst offenders (shop vacs) are rated on the spike of energy created when the rotor is instantaneously stalled. This is similar to comparing a 3 hp router to a 3 hp shaper.

[Jim Becker]

AFAIK fixed pricing is not legal unless the store is factory owned.
Bill D.
No, a manufacturer can set minimum pricing for their dealers with no problem and it's pretty darn common in many types of products.

[Brett Luna]

Fixed pricing, not to be confused with price fixing.

[Lee Schierer]

The DeWalt is a direct-drive 15 amp saw nominally rated at 2 HP. The Sawstop is belt-driven and rated at 1.75 HP. Will I really be giving up about 1/8 of the power by moving to the Sawstop? I don’t know enough about how the motors are rated or how the different drive technologies impact the cutting power to understand if I am comparing apples to apples on that hp rating.

Can anyone offer me any insights on this?

According to electrical charts (http://www.sprecherschuh.com/download/sscdn7500F/index/hp-volts-fla_chart_v206.pdf) a 15 amp current is typical of a motor producing 1 Hp. A 2 Hp motor would draw 24 amps. Basically you draw about 14amps per Hp. So it appears you are probably not giving up any power at all. Many manufacturers of power equipment rate their saws HP at locked rotor current which is much higher than running current. Sears was notorious for this.

[Ray Newman]

"The dealer has lost interest in dealing with SawStop and just wants the unit gone so he has reduced it to $1400."

--Warren Wilson

"Reduced" to US $1400??

Find out exactly what is included. My local Woodcraft lists the SawStop job site saw with cart and fence for US$1299 + $100. shipping. See:
https://www.woodcraft.com/products/sawstop-jobsite-saw-w-cart-fence

You can also "build and price out" any SawStop at: https://www.sawstop.com/build

[Charlie Hinton]

There's lots of hp/amps charts out there.
The 70% efficiency column in this one closely matches the motor plates on my tablesaw, bandsaw, dust collector, and jointer.
https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/electrical-motor-hp-amps-d_1455.html

[Simon MacGowen]

I actually do my woodworking under my carport roof and need to move the saw around regularly, so portability is a requirement and the contractor’s model seemed to offer a good compromise.

.

The PCS and contractor saw have similar footprint.

But trust me, when it comes to mobility (not portability), the PCS fitted with the upgraded mobile base (free for the ICS) is unbeatable. With the hydraulic mobile base, I can move my PCS with just one hand. Of course, in actual use, I move my saw with two hands because I work in a tight room.

Simon

[Charlie Hinton]

I think the contractor saw will be a big step up from the Dewalt even in baseline configuration.
Its easy for me to spend your money, but unless you have the inside track on a super deal on the contractor saw you are already into it for $$$ so I would try real hard to squeeze the 1.75hp PCS with the 36" T-glide fence into the budget.

[Jim Becker]

"Reduced" to US $1400??

Find out exactly what is included. My local Woodcraft lists the SawStop job site saw with cart and fence for US$1299 + $100. shipping. See:
https://www.woodcraft.com/products/sawstop-jobsite-saw-w-cart-fence

The saw he's considering is a contractors' style saw, not a job-site saw...

[Ray Newman]

Mea culpa, mea culpa. I looked at the wrong saw.

[Roger Marty]

Huge step up.

[Frank Pratt]

Sorry, I think you misread my statement. "I also feel that a contractor saw is only an incidental step up from a job site saw."

With the alignment problems overall, and specifically with bevel cuts, the contractor saw can be quite painful. As a qualifier, if 99% of what you do is with the blade at 90 degrees to the table, you can get the saw aligned and leave it there and use it with very good success. The weaknesses start to show only if you make more liberal use of all that a tablesaw can do for you.

I ran a contractor saw (with about $300 of after market stuff thrown at it) for years with good success. As my needs grew, the need for a saw that can cut an accurate bevel and be returned to 90 degrees repeatedly became important to me. Until I needed those things, I was fine. Today, there are things I still do not need so buying a tool that does "more" would add no value for me.

I am happy with an 8" jointer. Someone else wishes his 12" jointer was a 16" but, I don't have that need. We are all different (thank goodness) and our satisfaction with a tool is tied to what we do and how we do it ;-)

Right you are. That's me not paying attention again. But I had a good Jet contractor saw for 15 years that I took great pains to precisely set up when new & it stayed that way for as long as I had it. Aside from the power difference, there isn't that much I can do with my PCS that I couldn't do with the Jet. The PCS though, is much quieter, smoother, infinitely better dust collection, excellent safety features (aside from the wiener saving tech) and quality of build. I've had it for a few years now & it still makes me smile every time I use it. To me the extra cost for the cabinet saw is well worth it.

[Simon MacGowen]

I have used a contractor saw for 32 yrs. I make the vast majority of my living from woodworking. I make furniture, smaller type stuff, and turnings. Would I like a 3hsp saw..sure. but I cannot say that the 1986 delta has ever let me down. The 2hsp rating is ridiculous for your dewalt 120v saw. It cannot really be that ..so the contractor may be more power as it will have more "torque" behind it ... If you have the cash, sure, why not? But if you are a weekend warrior that contractor SS would be a terrific new tool,, keep having fun in your shop.

I can bet the majority of us hobby woodworkers started our hobby with a tablesaw that was not a cabinet saw. When I tried to sell my contractor saw after assembling my PCS, I could not believe the number of responses received on the first day of putting up my ad. Of course, I listed it real cheap as my purpose was get it out of the door so I could park my car. It does show that most hobby woodworkers make stuff with a contractor saw, not a cabinet saw.

That said, if budget allows, there is no reason to get a SS contractor saw and then later upgrade it to a PCS. That's money wasted in between, and the jigs made for the contractor saw may no longer work in the new saw.

So, if you are serious about being a serious weekend warrior (and about planning to become a week-long warrior, say, upon retiring, etc.), you should seriously consider a PCS purchase NOW, not later, if money is toy money in this consideration.

Simon

[Jim Dwight]

My table saw is a Ryobi BT3100. It has a universal motor rated to pull 15A at full load and drives the blade through a short belt. Before it, I used a home made table saw with a true 1hp induction motor (13 or 14A draw, Baldor if I remember right). I don't see much difference in power. Matching the blade to the use clearly makes much more difference. If I do not use a rip blade, I could not cut 3 inches deep in hardwood with either saw. Either saw will do it if I do (and the blade is clean and sharp). The induction motor should be slightly more powerful because the effiency is higher. Induction motors are 90% or more efficient. Universal motors can be as low as 30% but I suspect ones the size in our table saws are near the maximum 75%. So we lose 3.75A equivalent in a 15A universal motor but only 1.4 amp equivalent in a 14A induction motor. So power to the blade is 11.25 for the induction motor and 12.6 for the induction motor (the 1.75hp SawStop is 14A). So the SawStop is delivering 1.35A power equivalent more to the blade. I don't think you will be able to tell it. But it definitely is not less powerful.

[Warren Wilson]

Well, having pondered the wisdom proffered by the folks who took the time to respond, I bought a contractor’s sawstop yesterday and assembled it today.

I have to say that the upgrade from a DeWalt jobsite saw is very significant: I suddenly feel as if I have acres of table top to work on and a stable, heavy saw to support the work. The difference between a jobsite saw and this is very significant — it is a whole new world of stability and smoothness.

I will doubtlessly encounter shortcomings before long, but right now it is the size of the big step up in quality that I am enjoying. Thank you for the insights you have shared that helped me to indulge the tool acquisition syndrome on a nice scale.

[Ben Rivel]

Well, having pondered the wisdom proffered by the folks who took the time to respond, I bought a contractor’s sawstop yesterday and assembled it today.

I have to say that the upgrade from a DeWalt jobsite saw is very significant: I suddenly feel as if I have acres of table top to work on and a stable, heavy saw to support the work. The difference between a jobsite saw and this is very significant — it is a whole new world of stability and smoothness.

I will doubtlessly encounter shortcomings before long, but right now it is the size of the big step up in quality that I am enjoying. Thank you for the insights you have shared that helped me to indulge the tool acquisition syndrome on a nice scale.
Enjoy man! You will love the upgrade!

[Tim M Tuttle]

Well, having pondered the wisdom proffered by the folks who took the time to respond, I bought a contractor’s sawstop yesterday and assembled it today.

I have to say that the upgrade from a DeWalt jobsite saw is very significant: I suddenly feel as if I have acres of table top to work on and a stable, heavy saw to support the work. The difference between a jobsite saw and this is very significant — it is a whole new world of stability and smoothness.

I will doubtlessly encounter shortcomings before long, but right now it is the size of the big step up in quality that I am enjoying. Thank you for the insights you have shared that helped me to indulge the tool acquisition syndrome on a nice scale.

I have the same saw and I do like it. But as a previous poster mentioned, once you add on a lot of the accessories you get pretty close to a PCS. About $300 more had I gone the PCS route and I regret it. I went in wanting to buy the jobsite saw and got upsold to the contractor so I didn't realize the PCS was that close in price till months later.

That motor just takes up so much damn space and made building an outfeed table much more troublesome.

[liam c murphy]

An additional advantage of the 1.75 HP PCS is that you can upgrade the motor to a 3 HP 220V motor after you’ve purchased the saw. I believe the motor upgrade costs around $500. I upgraded mine about a month ago, and it was relatively easy. I’m unsure if you can upgrade the motor on the contractor saw.

[Charlie Hinton]

Congratulations on getting your new saw.
I know the recommendations (including mine) were to squeeze a PCS out of the budget, but don't look back.
Its easy to spend other people's money.
Enjoy your new machine, it should serve you well for a very long time.

[Simon MacGowen]

An additional advantage of the 1.75 HP PCS is that you can upgrade the motor to a 3 HP 220V motor after you’ve purchased the saw. I believe the motor upgrade costs around $500. I upgraded mine about a month ago, and it was relatively easy. I’m unsure if you can upgrade the motor on the contractor saw.

No, the contractor can't be upgraded to a 3HP motor unless SawStop has changed its upgrade supplies. I am also planning to upgrade mine to 3HP and the hang up is just to run a 220V circuit outlet to the shop first. Another reason for the delay is that I have access to a 5 HP SawStop, and I seldom need to rip anything over 3-1/2" thick.

Simon

[Simon MacGowen]

Its easy to spend other people's money.


True. Money aside, one needs to consider the sawing needs. If everything is plywood or mostly 3/4" material or thinner, and the main use is weekend activity, a contractor saw is good enough (though some will argue that paying the extra money for the safety feature is unnecessary (not their fingers after all)). On the other hand, I would also argue that if someone has not really used a cabinet saw for a reasonable amount of time, they do not realize what they are missing. I know a woodworker who has worked more than 35 years without ever touching a cabinet saw, and he is always wondering why people would want to spend more money for a cabinet saw.

Simon

[Roger Marty]

Congrats! You made a good choice.